Help with fighter PrC's/level dips (3.5)

[flappeercraft]

So 2 friends in a campaign we all currently play in just wanted me to help them create a build for their current fighter characters. They are sorta new and are lost when going too far out of core. Their current characters are a Fighter 3 Hobgoblin (LA was buyed off already) who worships Hextor and a Fighter 1/Dragon shaman 1/Barbarian 1 Half orc who also worships Hextor. The end of the Campaign will be at around 21st level so we are going for level 21 characters. I was thinking that for the Hobgoblin a gish type character focused on melee like a Fighter 5/Domain Wizard 1/Abjurant champion 5/Swiftblade 10 and doing a Savage species ritual to change to another Race for more Int. About the Half orc no idea of what could be good. Any suggestions? All 3.5 is allowed (Yes, even Dragon magazine) except ToB and all 3.0 material that was not updated is also allowed. Shenanigans and Cheese are allowed just don't go too far with it, while it's not infinite loops or something like pun pun in general it will be allowed.

[Exocist]

Ubercharger is generally considered the best Fighter-type (Without ToB to make Lockdown good) there is, while remaining purely martial.

For that you'll need 1 level of Barbarian (Pick up Lion Spirit Totem) and 10 levels of Frenzied Berseker.


The easiest entry point to Uberchargerdom lies in the following Feats and ACFs:

Power Attack/Cleave/Improved Bull Rush/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper/Destructive Rage/Intimidating Rage

ACF: Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion)

I'll give you a human build, since it gets you in earlier. Pick a race with a Str bonus, and you're going to delay your entry to full goodness. I say the trade-off isn't worth it, unless you're playing at a high enough level that the later entry won't bother you. If you are, then pick a race with a large Str bonus and the Powerful Build feature (might I recommend goliath: worth the +1 LA if you're starting at level 12 or higher).

Anyhow, without further ado, here's the basic framework.

Barbarian 1: Power Attack, Cleave; ACF: Spirit Lion Totem (trades fast movement for pounce)
Bbn 1/Fighter 1: Extra Rage
Bbn 1/Ftr 2: Destructive Rage, Improved Bull Rush
Bbn 1/Ftr 3:
Bbn 1/Ftr 4: Intimidating Rage
Bbn 1/Ftr 5: Leap Attack
Bbn 1/Ftr 6: Shock Trooper
Bbn 1/Ftr 6/Frenzied Berserker 1: Diehard (bonus feat)

So at Level 8, you're off to the races. Assuming a beginning Str of 18 and some gauntlets of ogre power, you're looking at a Str of 22. That's 32 in a frenzied rage.

With a greatsword, you're looking at a heedless leaping charge with full Power Attack to get three strikes at +21//+21/+16 for 2d6+40 damage per hit (2d6+48 if you believe that Leap Attack gives you 4-for-1 on a two-handed weapon), before taking any weapon enhancements or other buffs into account. That's putting you in the vicinity of 150 points of damage on a successful charge at level 8.

That's the basics, although people prefer to do it this way:

Race: Water Orc (+4 STR, some other stuff). Barbarian 1/Fighter 6/Frenzied Berseker 10/Whatever 3

FEATS:
1: Power Attack, Lion Spirit Totem ACF
2: Cleave
3: Destructive Rage, Improved Bull Rush
4:
5: Shock Trooper
6: Intimidating Rage
7: Leap Attack
8: Diehard (Bonus)
9: Headlong Rush

Also pick up a valorous weapon (For more double damage on charges). You literally just stack charging multipliers until you do thousands of damage on a charge. It's great for taking out single foes.

As usual, run into a forest to start the day while the clerics are praying for their spells and just start frenzying at nothing to burn up the uses. You don't want to TPK your own party.

[Vizzerdrix]

I recently played a Cha focused undead melee type. It worked out quite well. It used stunning reach weapons for lockdown.

[Cerefel]

As usual, run into a forest to start the day while the clerics are praying for their spells and just start frenzying at nothing to burn up the uses. You don't want to TPK your own party.

I prefer pumping the character's will save with stuff like Steadfast Determination and/or Cumbrous Will. Frenzy is pretty strong if you can use it safely.

[Vizzerdrix]

As usual, run into a forest to start the day while the clerics are praying for their spells and just start frenzying at nothing to burn up the uses. You don't want to TPK your own party.

Bonus points if you describe it as the warehouse scene from Foot Loose.

[flappeercraft]

Ubercharger is generally considered the best Fighter-type (Without ToB to make Lockdown good) there is, while remaining purely martial.

For that you'll need 1 level of Barbarian (Pick up Lion Spirit Totem) and 10 levels of Frenzied Berseker.



That's the basics, although people prefer to do it this way:

Race: Water Orc (+4 STR, some other stuff). Barbarian 1/Fighter 6/Frenzied Berseker 10/Whatever 3

FEATS:
1: Power Attack, Lion Spirit Totem ACF
2: Cleave
3: Destructive Rage, Improved Bull Rush
4:
5: Shock Trooper
6: Intimidating Rage
7: Leap Attack
8: Diehard (Bonus)
9: Headlong Rush

Also pick up a valorous weapon (For more double damage on charges). You literally just stack charging multipliers until you do thousands of damage on a charge. It's great for taking out single foes.

As usual, run into a forest to start the day while the clerics are praying for their spells and just start frenzying at nothing to burn up the uses. You don't want to TPK your own party.

Ok, I pretty much based the build around this concept but with a few changes but is it really worth it to waste the frenzys if the party could handle him in his frenzy? I mean, a well placed wall of stone/force and he can't do a thing to us for a couple of rounds. Not without the help of a spellcaster to break the wall disintegrate it or teleport him through it at least.

[Exocist]

Ok, I pretty much based the build around this concept but with a few changes but is it really worth it to waste the frenzys if the party could handle him in his frenzy? I mean, a well placed wall of stone/force and he can't do a thing to us for a couple of rounds. Not without the help of a spellcaster to break the wall disintegrate it or teleport him through it at least.

I think its more a case of the Frenzy only triggering at the start of the Berserker's turn (after he gets hit). Which means if something hits the Berserker first, can be as simple as a damaging trap, he immediately turns to whatever's standing near him and slaughters them. Unless the casters have some immediate-action stuff (Which they really dont want to waste) to stop him rampaging (or get themselves out of the way), that's at least 1 character dead. Can also happen in encounters if the monster hits the berserker then goes invisible or something like that.

Also the case of the Berserker not being able to make DEX checks in a frenzy, which means he can't Balance.

Also the case of even if you frenzy and Red-Mistify the monster(s), the party still has to waste resources trying to stop you from red-mistifying them. Every resource is valuable.

Now, I'm not going to claim the benefits of Frenzy are marginal (+10 STR and Deathless) - but they aren't really worth the hassle you have to go through of the "IF I accidentally trigger this I could TPK my party".

----------------

Although, there's always the other option of having your party members boast that they're weak to the Sap (Or the Whip) - which can only deal nonlethal damage. Therefore, when you're forced to "attack them to the best of your abilities", you pull out your Sap/Whip and beat them into submission, but they won't die off it and they should be able to recover fairly quickly from the nonlethal damage.

[Telok]

Actually as long as you don't have a paladin around (in general, this won't apply to all paladind or GMs) the party springing for a merciful weapon for the beserker is a decent option. You get prisoners to interrogate and supplement your rations, plus he won't kill party members.

[Exocist]

Actually as long as you don't have a paladin around (in general, this won't apply to all paladind or GMs) the party springing for a merciful weapon for the beserker is a decent option. You get prisoners to interrogate and supplement your rations, plus he won't kill party members.

The point of the Ubercharger is to turn enemies into red mist, not breathing red pulp :smallfrown:

But yes, this should also work, but it eats up +1 of those precious weapon enchantment slots (That you could be spending on Valorous + Wrathful Healing or Valorous + Spireshard)

[flappeercraft]

I think its more a case of the Frenzy only triggering at the start of the Berserker's turn (after he gets hit). Which means if something hits the Berserker first, can be as simple as a damaging trap, he immediately turns to whatever's standing near him and slaughters them. Unless the casters have some immediate-action stuff (Which they really dont want to waste) to stop him rampaging (or get themselves out of the way), that's at least 1 character dead. Can also happen in encounters if the monster hits the berserker then goes invisible or something like that.

Also the case of the Berserker not being able to make DEX checks in a frenzy, which means he can't Balance.

Also the case of even if you frenzy and Red-Mistify the monster(s), the party still has to waste resources trying to stop you from red-mistifying them. Every resource is valuable.

Now, I'm not going to claim the benefits of Frenzy are marginal (+10 STR and Deathless) - but they aren't really worth the hassle you have to go through of the "IF I accidentally trigger this I could TPK my party".

----------------

Although, there's always the other option of having your party members boast that they're weak to the Sap (Or the Whip) - which can only deal nonlethal damage. Therefore, when you're forced to "attack them to the best of your abilities", you pull out your Sap/Whip and beat them into submission, but they won't die off it and they should be able to recover fairly quickly from the nonlethal damage.

By the point we get to that stage even the wizard who is my character could survive the whole frenzy being attacked even if he got max damage. By that point my wizard can get damage immunity by regeneration 5/sonic, immunity to sonic and a item of veil of undeath. Or if he does not want him to get into a frenzy then celerity and step into the attack. Also about spells being valuable, by that point we would all have regeneration and the wizard build I made for my character includes a belt of the dread emperor so I pretty much have infinite spells.

[Exocist]

By the point we get to that stage even the wizard who is my character could survive the whole frenzy being attacked even if he got max damage. By that point my wizard can get damage immunity by regeneration 5/sonic, immunity to sonic and a item of veil of undeath. Or if he does not want him to get into a frenzy then celerity and step into the attack. Also about spells being valuable, by that point we would all have regeneration and the wizard build I made for my character includes a belt of the dread emperor so I pretty much have infinite spells.

If you're in a party of unkillable wizards Beholder Mage/Metaphysical Spellshaper/Rainbow Servants, then I question what the point of even playing a Martial character (or banning ToB) is...

In this case, you might as well just go Warforged Ranger or Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 7/Warforged Juggernaut 5/MoMF +3. Pretty much just an immunity to damage build as well (By 14th level you're immune to damage by shaping into anything that has EX Regeneration). But even that can't stand up to the universe-destroying unkillable wizards.

No, we need to go something far cheesier. War Hulk/Hulking Hurler should do the trick. It can throw iron balls orcish shotputs for billions of damage. The wizards forums have been down for a while but you can track the pages through wayback machine (just hover next to the numbers at the bottom of the page and the next number should show up). (https://web.archive.org/web/20151031072548/http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/886586)

[flappeercraft]

If you're in a party of unkillable wizards Beholder Mage/Metaphysical Spellshaper/Rainbow Servants, then I question what the point of even playing a Martial character (or banning ToB) is...

In this case, you might as well just go Warforged Ranger or Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 7/Warforged Juggernaut 5/MoMF +3. Pretty much just an immunity to damage build as well (By 14th level you're immune to damage by shaping into anything that has EX Regeneration). But even that can't stand up to the universe-destroying unkillable wizards.

No, we need to go something far cheesier. War Hulk/Hulking Hurler should do the trick. It can throw iron balls orcish shotputs for billions of damage. The wizards forums have been down for a while but you can track the pages through wayback machine (just hover next to the numbers at the bottom of the page and the next number should show up). (https://web.archive.org/web/20151031072548/http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/886586)

Well, my wizard is not a beholder mage, metaphysical spell shaper or rainbow servant. Also ToB is banned not because of balancing but since the DM has not read it.

[Exocist]

Well, my wizard is not a beholder mage, metaphysical spell shaper or rainbow servant. Also ToB is banned not because of balancing but since the DM has not read it.

It's still a case of immunity to damage completely negating what the Uberchargers main thing (Basically just damage...).

In that case, running a Juggernaut MoMF can provide some benefit (Immunity to damage, but they can still just hold people down with grapples). Alternately, a Hulking Hurler can just destroy the entire space you're standing on.