Considering 5th Edition for a spirits and shamans wilderness campaign

[Yora]

I think I have not really looked at 5th edition since the second playtest version. I had quit 3rd edition and Pathfinder after about 12 years or so because I didn't like how slow it plays and how much work preparation takes and have been using B/X since then because it's much more lightweight.
But I've seen people write that 5th edition is also pretty simple and looking at the Basic rules and SRD it's indeed looking quite nice.

The campaign I am currently planning is set in a forest world inhabited by what's basically wood elves, goblins, hobgoblins, and goliaths that only has a Spititworld as another plane and no gods, only very powerful spirits like beefed up treants and nymphs.

Barbarian, fighter, ranger, rogue, sorcerer,and warlock all looks pretty nice and fitting and I should be able to cobble together some kind of shaman from the druid and cleric classes. Are there any good resources for class variants (or what they are called) and spells for a wilderness and spirit centered campaign that I should take a look at?

[DanyBallon]

You can have a look at the homebrew section of the forums http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?15-Homebrew-Design, and click on a "D&D 5e/Next" tag to filter for 5e topics. Also, the DM's Guild (http://www.dmsguild.com/) could be a good place to look.

As for anything WotC, there haven't been much cleric or druid love in their free Unearthed Arcana article, nor int the free Elemental Evil Player's Companion.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Yora's trying 5e! *cheers*

Twelvetrees keeps a pretty good compendium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?481588-D-amp-D-5e-Homebrew-Compendium-2) for homebrew. Also, if it's a forested wilderness campaign, you might be interested in some of my stuff - the Witch arcane tradition (wizard subclass), spells and items in here (https://www.dropbox.com/s/s3crmpfdbc5u5x5/Fey%20Creatures%20Complete.pdf?dl=0) seem particularly relevant. Finally, my colleagues at Middle Finger of Vecna have a Spirit otherworldly patron (http://www.middlefingerofvecna.com/2015/08/the-spirit_30.html) (warlock subclass) that could work.

[Yora]

I quite like the druid class. Is there a version somewhere that replaces wild shape with something else?

[Ninja_Prawn]

I quite like the druid class. Is there a version somewhere that replaces wild shape with something else?

A few people mentioned that in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503785-If-you-could-build-a-new-class)... I don't think it would terribly hard to replace. You'd have to:

Delete the entire Moon circle, though you could leave Land as-is
Replace the Beast Spells and Archdruid features
and, of course, Replace Wildshape

Wildshape, on its own, is not *that* powerful. It's primarily an exploration tool that is useful for scouting and observing without being noticed. At low levels, it gives you a slight leg-up in melee combat, enough to allow the druid to compete with a melee-focussed cleric or bard, but that tapers off at higher levels. On the flip side, the addition of aquatic and flying forms opens up more environments for you to scout.

So, I'd be inclined to replace it with some kind of 'remote viewing' type power that lets you send your consciousness out (maybe via spirits or the roots of the world tree or whatever) to scout remote places twice/short rest. It'd then be easy to let you use that ability to cast spells remotely (if you can see it and it's within range of wherever your consciousness is, you can cast it) at 18th level. You'd probably have to get a bit more creative with Archdruid - as a capstone, it needs to be flashy. I don't have any ideas about that right now...

[Yora]

I would probably only need it up to 10th level anyway for my campaign. Which should make a replacement much easier.

From doing some reading around I've seen some people say that PCs tend to become one trick ponies with one special ability and little variation, to the point that the game was compared to a kids cartoons. How much is that the case and compared to what? Coming from 4th or 3rd edition there are definitely a lot less options to pick from. But I am looking at the game from a B/X perspective where characters don't have any special combat powers other than spells. Is this an issue for campaigns that don't focus on elaborate tactical combats?

[Ninja_Prawn]

I would probably only need it up to 10th level anyway for my campaign. Which should make a replacement much easier.

On this, I'd actually recommend you put the cap at 11th level. There's a big power spike for several classes there, so it makes sense as a 'mini capstone' point.


From doing some reading around I've seen some people say that PCs tend to become one trick ponies with one special ability and little variation, to the point that the game was compared to a kids cartoons. How much is that the case and compared to what? Coming from 4th or 3rd edition there are definitely a lot less options to pick from. But I am looking at the game from a B/X perspective where characters don't have any special combat powers other than spells. Is this an issue for campaigns that don't focus on elaborate tactical combats?

Hmm... you'll get a variety of opinions here. It's true that if a player optimises for DPR, they'll usually end up doing one of a small selection of things. There being fewer options in the book is actually intended to remove the shackles though. In previous editions, there was a lot of "you can't do that because you need to take X feat or be Y class". That isn't so much the case now; anyone can do anything and imaginative players should have plenty of options.

Plus, the less you focus on tactical combat, the less of an issue this becomes. 5e is still mainly designed as a tactical combat game, but it doesn't fall apart in non-combat situations. There's a lot more emphasis on TotM letting the DM rule things on the fly, so things can go pretty smoothly. You can almost play it like a freeform game sometimes.

[DanyBallon]

I would probably only need it up to 10th level anyway for my campaign. Which should make a replacement much easier.

From doing some reading around I've seen some people say that PCs tend to become one trick ponies with one special ability and little variation, to the point that the game was compared to a kids cartoons. How much is that the case and compared to what? Coming from 4th or 3rd edition there are definitely a lot less options to pick from. But I am looking at the game from a B/X perspective where characters don't have any special combat powers other than spells. Is this an issue for campaigns that don't focus on elaborate tactical combats?

On the contrary, I find that 5e character are more versatile, because you don't need to be proficient in order to contribute. At 20th level, the difference between a proficient and non-proficient is only +6, which means that a non-proficient character still can hope to make a difficult check, but will fail more often than a proficient one. While in 3.P (I can't say about 4e, as I've only read the book when it came out) if you weren't proficient, there was no mean you could try to do something you weren't proficient in.

The feel of being one trick ponies, and that there's no variation come from heavy optimiser that believe that only a few set of abilities are worth taking, and ditch aside anything else.

[Yora]

I was just giving the bard another look before going to completely ignore it and thought that it could be an interesting class for priests in a campaign with no clerics. Or alternatively, Inspiration could be a replacement for the druid's wild shape to make a shaman.

What do you think of this:



Level
Features


1st
Spirit Languages, spirit inspiration (d6), spellcasting


2nd
Bonus cantrips, natural recovery


3rd
Song of rest (d6)


4th
Ability score improvement


5th
Spirit inspiration (d8), font of inspiration


6th
Land strider


7th
Countercharm


8th
Ability score improvement


9th
Song of rest (d8)


10th
Nature's ward, spirit inspiration (d10)


11th
-


12th
Ability score improvement


13th
Song of rest (d10)


14th
Nature's Sanctuary


15th
Spirit inspiration (d12)


16th
Ability score increase


17th
Song of rest (d12)


18th
Timeless body


19th
Ability score increase


20th
Superior inspiration



Spirit Languages: You learn two of the following languages: Auran, Aquan, Ignan, Sylvan, Terran.
Spirit Inspiration: Identical to bardic inspiration, but the number of uses is equal t the shaman's Wisdom modifier.

It's obviously not equivalent to wild shape, but I think it seems fitting for the archetype that a shaman is able to call spirits to give the group strength to fight on, resist enchantments, and have fortune on their side.
It's made to replace both druids and bards and not to work alongside them.

For Witches, I think the wizard class with a modified spell list looks good enough, with arcane traditions restricted to divination, enchantment, illusion, and transmutation.
I might create a sorcery and blood magic tradition, though.

[2D8HP]

I'm pretty excited by @Yora's project!
While I've played a lot of other RPG's (and have bought even more), I've found the most joy in playing TSR AD&D/D&D, and WotC 5e D&D.
Since I only bought (and never played 3e), and skipped 3.5 and 4e, I'm eager to see what an @Yora's "best of"/homebrew will look like.

[Yora]

I made a first draft for spell lists for rangers, shamans, and witches.

Ranger Spells

1st level

Alarm
Animal Friendship
Cure Wounds
Detect Magic
Detect Poison and Disease
Fog Cloud
Hunter’s Mark
Jump
Longstrider
Speak with Animals

2nd level

Animal Messenger
Barkskin
Beast Sense
Darkvision
Lesser Restoration
Pass without Trace
Protection from Poison
Silence
Spike Growth

3rd level

Conjure Animals
Plant Growth
Protection from Energy
Speak with Plants
Water Breathing
Water Walk
Wind Wall

Shaman Spells

Cantrips (0 level)

Guidance
Mending
Poison Spray
Resistance
Spare the Dying
Thaumaturgy

1st level

Animal Friendship
Charm Person
Cure Wounds
Detect Magic
Detect Spirits*
Detect Poison and Disease
Entangle
Faerie Fire
Fog Cloud
Protection from Spirits*
Purify Food and Drink
Speak with Animals

2nd level

Augury
Barkskin
Beast Sense
Blindness/Deafness
Calm Emotions
Darkvision
Enhance Ability
Gust of Wind
Hold Person
Lesser Restoration
Protection from Poison
Spike Growth

3rd level

Bestow Curse
Conjure Animals
Dispel Magic
Magic Circle
Meld into Stone
Plant Growth
Protection from Energy
Remove Curse
Revivify
Speak with Dead
Speak with Plants
Water Breathing
Water Walk
Wind Wall

4th level

Arcane Eye
Banishment
Blight
Confusion
Conjure Woodland Beings
Control Water
Divination
Faithful Hound
Polymorph
Wall of Fire

5th level

Antilife Shell
Commune
Commune with Nature
Conjure Elemental
Contagion
Geas
Greater Restoration
Hold Monster
Insect Plague
Mass Cure Wounds
Planar Binding
Scrying
Wall of Stone

Witch Spells

Cantrips (0 level)

Chill Touch
Dancing Lights
Fire Bolt
Friends
Light
Mage Hand
Mending
Message
Minor Illusion
Poison Spray
Prestidigitation
Produce Flame
Ray of Frost
Shocking Grasp

1st level

Alarm
Barkskin
Burning Hands
Charm Person
Command
Detect Magic
Detect Spirits*
Disguise Self
Feather Fall
Find Familiar
Fog Cloud
Grease
Illusory Script
Jump
Longstrider
Protection from Spirits*
Silent Image
Sleep
Thunderwave
Unseen Servant

2nd level

Alter Self
Animal Messenger
Arcane Lock
Arcanist’s Magic Aura
Beast Sense
Blindness/Deafness
Blur
Darkness
Darkvision
Detect Thoughts
Enlarge/Reduce
Gust of Wind
Hold Person
Invisibility
Knock
Levitate
Magic Weapon
Pass without Trace
Ray of Enfeeblement
Scorching Ray
See Invisibility
Shatter
Spider Climb
Suggestion
Web

3rd level

Animate Dead
Bestow Curse
Clairvoyance
Counterspell
Dispel Magic
Fear
Fly
Haste
Magic Circle
Major Image
Meld into Stone
Phantom Steed
Plant Growth
Protection from Energy
Remove Curse
Sending
Sleet Storm
Slow
Speak with Dead
Stinking Cloud
Vampiric Touch
Water Breathing

4th level

Arcane Eye
Banishment
Blight
Confusion
Control Water
Dominate Beast
Faithful Hound
Giant Insect
Greater Invisibility
Phantasmal Killer
Polymorph
Stone Shape
Wall of Fire

5th level

Animate Objects
Awaken
Cloudkill
Conjure Elemental
Contact Other Plane
Contagion
Dominate Person
Dream
Geas
Hold Monster
Insect Plague
Mislead
Modify Memory
Planar Binding
Scrying
Seeming
Telepathic Bond
Wall of Stone

I quite like what kinds of things characters can do with these spells, but the witch list is almost twice as long as the shaman list. I'll look some more into the new warlock spells,and interestingly also the paladin spells. There seems to be some among them that might work quite well for someone who calls spirits to help.

[MrStabby]

I made a first draft for spell lists for rangers, shamans, and witches.

Ranger Spells

1st level

Alarm
Animal Friendship
Cure Wounds
Detect Magic
Detect Poison and Disease
Fog Cloud
Hunter’s Mark
Jump
Longstrider
Speak with Animals

2nd level

Animal Messenger
Barkskin
Beast Sense
Darkvision
Lesser Restoration
Pass without Trace
Protection from Poison
Silence
Spike Growth

3rd level

Conjure Animals
Plant Growth
Protection from Energy
Speak with Plants
Water Breathing
Water Walk
Wind Wall

Shaman Spells

Cantrips (0 level)

Guidance
Mending
Poison Spray
Resistance
Spare the Dying
Thaumaturgy

1st level

Animal Friendship
Charm Person
Cure Wounds
Detect Magic
Detect Spirits*
Detect Poison and Disease
Entangle
Faerie Fire
Fog Cloud
Protection from Spirits*
Purify Food and Drink
Speak with Animals

2nd level

Augury
Barkskin
Beast Sense
Blindness/Deafness
Calm Emotions
Darkvision
Enhance Ability
Gust of Wind
Hold Person
Lesser Restoration
Protection from Poison
Spike Growth

3rd level

Bestow Curse
Conjure Animals
Dispel Magic
Magic Circle
Meld into Stone
Plant Growth
Protection from Energy
Remove Curse
Revivify
Speak with Dead
Speak with Plants
Water Breathing
Water Walk
Wind Wall

4th level

Arcane Eye
Banishment
Blight
Confusion
Conjure Woodland Beings
Control Water
Divination
Faithful Hound
Polymorph
Wall of Fire

5th level

Antilife Shell
Commune
Commune with Nature
Conjure Elemental
Contagion
Geas
Greater Restoration
Hold Monster
Insect Plague
Mass Cure Wounds
Planar Binding
Scrying
Wall of Stone

Witch Spells

Cantrips (0 level)

Chill Touch
Dancing Lights
Fire Bolt
Friends
Light
Mage Hand
Mending
Message
Minor Illusion
Poison Spray
Prestidigitation
Produce Flame
Ray of Frost
Shocking Grasp

1st level

Alarm
Barkskin
Burning Hands
Charm Person
Command
Detect Magic
Detect Spirits*
Disguise Self
Feather Fall
Find Familiar
Fog Cloud
Grease
Illusory Script
Jump
Longstrider
Protection from Spirits*
Silent Image
Sleep
Thunderwave
Unseen Servant

2nd level

Alter Self
Animal Messenger
Arcane Lock
Arcanist’s Magic Aura
Beast Sense
Blindness/Deafness
Blur
Darkness
Darkvision
Detect Thoughts
Enlarge/Reduce
Gust of Wind
Hold Person
Invisibility
Knock
Levitate
Magic Weapon
Pass without Trace
Ray of Enfeeblement
Scorching Ray
See Invisibility
Shatter
Spider Climb
Suggestion
Web

3rd level

Animate Dead
Bestow Curse
Clairvoyance
Counterspell
Dispel Magic
Fear
Fly
Haste
Magic Circle
Major Image
Meld into Stone
Phantom Steed
Plant Growth
Protection from Energy
Remove Curse
Sending
Sleet Storm
Slow
Speak with Dead
Stinking Cloud
Vampiric Touch
Water Breathing

4th level

Arcane Eye
Banishment
Blight
Confusion
Control Water
Dominate Beast
Faithful Hound
Giant Insect
Greater Invisibility
Phantasmal Killer
Polymorph
Stone Shape
Wall of Fire

5th level

Animate Objects
Awaken
Cloudkill
Conjure Elemental
Contact Other Plane
Contagion
Dominate Person
Dream
Geas
Hold Monster
Insect Plague
Mislead
Modify Memory
Planar Binding
Scrying
Seeming
Telepathic Bond
Wall of Stone

I quite like what kinds of things characters can do with these spells, but the witch list is almost twice as long as the shaman list. I'll look some more into the new warlock spells,and interestingly also the paladin spells. There seems to be some among them that might work quite well for someone who calls spirits to help.

I find the witch list interesting, simply because it is so different to my witch list. No hex, bane, bestow curse - but with haste, cloudkill and wall of stone. A very different style there.

[Yora]

Lack of bestow curse is indeed and error. It should be there.

My criteria are partly about thematic fits but also about mechanics. Spells like bane and hex slightly adjust the numbers that are running behind the scenes, but they don't actually make anything visibly happen inside the world of the game. If you had a book or a movie, you would not see such spells. They are only a game mechanic with barely any fiction behind them.
I'm more a GM of simple action where combat isn't meant as a puzzle to solve with clever use of mechanics. My fight scenes are more for dramatic reasons and so I limit the spells to things were something notable happens.

In my LotFP rules I didn't even have separate classes for shamans and witches and their concepts in my setting are very close together. They both work with spirits to manipulate the world around them. But shamans serve the spirits and ask them for help to protect their people, while witches use their magic for payment or selfish reasons. So it's not a big suprise that witches have a lot more spells.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I assume the removal of spells like Ensnaring Strike, Cordon of Arrows, Hail of Thorns, Lightning Arrow and Flame Arrows from the ranger list is deliberate. It could have a significant effect on the way on the class plays though, as those spells are one of the main incentives for rangers to specialise in archery.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I was just giving the bard another look before going to completely ignore it
Is there a reason you need to ditch it? The charismatic leader-type seems like it should fit fine into a wilderness game; Valor Bards would make great warlords and Lore Bards great shamans without needing to change much of anything, except perhaps Jack of All Trades.

[Yora]

It's certainly a class that could be quite interesting in such a setting. I just never had bards with their music and mind control magic in my past campaigns and by now that's simply part of that setting's style.
I like to define the settings of a campaign by making whitelists of stuff that I put in, rather than starting with everything available and then removing things that are problematic.

In the five years or so and three campaigns I've run in that world, I found that settings become more focused and get a much stronger unique character by limiting content to elements that directly support a central vision and leaving out things that are not crucial to the concept.
D&D has thrived on offering massive amounts of optional content for the last 30 years, but in my experience throwing everything into a campaign just because you can leads to something mushy with no distinctive identity.
Nothing wrong with bards in particular, I just think they distract from the magic system and cosmology of the setting by muddying things up.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's certainly a class that could be quite interesting in such a setting. I just never had bards with their music and mind control magic in my past campaigns and by now that's simply part of that setting's style.
Fair enough; if the setting isn't big on enchantments or illusions, that's a pretty good reason not to include bards. Giving Bardic Inspiration to the Druid to make a "Shaman" should go nicely, then. Maybe turn the College of Lore into a replacement for the Circle of the Moon?