Eldritch knight as a full caster?

[poolio]

So like the title says, would it be so bad if the EK had full caster levels? Like that of the Wizard? He's not getting any of the bonuses from any of the wizardry schools, and would still be limited to mostly evocation and abjuration spells.

Would it really break the balance between the two classes?

[PeteNutButter]

Yes, very bad.

Giving an entire class as basically a subclass is well beyond overpowered.

The wizard subclass options only add very little to his kit. The wizard class's strength is always in his spells.

Level 5: The wizard casts fireball a couple times does cool stuff, feels cool. The fighter does the same thing then wades into the fight with extra attack d10 hit die and plate AC, action surge etc.

[Douche]

Do whatever you want, bro. Tell your DM that Douche says it's okay.

[Willie the Duck]

Would it really break the balance between the two classes?

Between the two classes? No idea. The game balance, which is the balance between all the classes? Yes. A character who can do 90% of what other fighters can do, along with topping out with 9th level evocation and abjuration spells, would make a lot of builds across the classes obsolete.

As usual, it is your game. Try making them half casters, making them full casters, making them 3e style gestalt character. The worst that will happen is that you walk away saying, "well that was silly."

[poolio]

Yes, very bad.

Giving an entire class as basically a subclass is well beyond overpowered.

The wizard subclass options only add very little to his kit. The wizard class's strength is always in his spells.

Level 5: The wizard casts fireball a couple times does cool stuff, feels cool. The fighter does the same thing then wades into the fight with extra attack d10 hit die and plate AC, action surge etc.

But EK doesn't get to cast fireball till way after it's usefulness, and doesn't even get 4th level spells till his career is pretty much over, not to mention how rarely any character can actually make it that far (not even just being killed off ether, groups disperse and games can and often do end unfinished, at least in my case they do)

And Wizards specialized schools benefits are amazing! Especially divination, amd the EK's primary spells known evocation, and abjuration,

He's screaming to be a sword swinging, spell slinging anti-wizard mage slayer.

But with what he's got right now, i just see a weak wizard wannabe, not a class that blends sword play and spell mastery.

I guess what I'm saying is, with the EK around, you shouldn't still have to multiclass to get a good gish build.

Sorry for appears to be a rant, i just really feel like the EK got the shaft in this edition.

Do you feel he's fine as is? Or would you change something about him?

Just curious what your opinion is and/or if you have any balancing ideas, just looking for other players inputs :smalltongue:

[poolio]

Do whatever you want, bro. Tell your DM that Douche says it's okay.

Haha thanks, can this be applied to everyday life as well? Or just to this particular case?:smalltongue:

[PeteNutButter]

But EK doesn't get to cast fireball till way after it's usefulness, and doesn't even get 4th level spells till his career is pretty much over, not to mention how rarely any character can actually make it that far (not even just being killed off ether, groups disperse and games can and often do end unfinished, at least in my case they do)

And Wizards specialized schools benefits are amazing! Especially divination, amd the EK's primary spells known evocation, and abjuration,

He's screaming to be a sword swinging, spell slinging anti-wizard mage slayer.

But with what he's got right now, i just see a weak wizard wannabe, not a class that blends sword play and spell mastery.

I guess what I'm saying is, with the EK around, you shouldn't still have to multiclass to get a good gish build.

Sorry for appears to be a rant, i just really feel like the EK got the shaft in this edition.

Do you feel he's fine as is? Or would you change something about him?

Just curious what your opinion is and/or if you have any balancing ideas, just looking for other players inputs :smalltongue:

Two things are true:

1.) The EK is not a true gish. His spellcasting is window dressing for most levels.
2.) The EK is balanced as is. Due to the power of shield spell on plate AC, he is one of the tankiest single class characters.

Now if you want to make a true gish it's best you multiclass or homebrew from scratch. Bladelocks, valor bards, bladesingers can serve as gishes, but the most successful true gishes are Muliclass.

For homebrew the most balanced approaches are ones that mirror the paladin chassis. 1/2 caster with extra attack and something to do with your slots, like smite.

[Sigreid]

Well, it would be fine if you were doing a gish campaign to help make up for not having many players. Then Paladin's, Rangers, and EK would all be full casters. But making it the only full caster full etc. class would make it the only class worth choosing.

[Specter]

Very bad indeed. If you really want to improve EK (which is fine as is), give it spell progression a la Ranger.

[Tanarii]

But EK doesn't get to cast fireball till way after it's usefulness, and doesn't even get 4th level spells till his career is pretty much over, not to mention how rarely any character can actually make it that far (not even just being killed off ether, groups disperse and games can and often do end unfinished, at least in my case they do)Way after it's usefulness? As long as the AoE damage is more than the attacks (or more likely War Magic rotation) the EK would otherwise be doing, it's not useless. Especially if you're a bog-standard Str/Int EK, since your non-magical ranged attacks are pretty weak in the first place.

I mean, sure, Burning Hands in a first level slot gets outclassed fairly fast. But an 8d6 multi-target 3rd level fireball is usually pretty good. Even Shatter in a 2nd level slot can be a superior damage option 1-2 times a day to just swinging your sword, depending on the specifics of your build & magic-items. (Edit: and tactical situation. If you're in a dungeon never more than 30ft from your enemies, obviously that'll change your tactical needs.)

[Willie the Duck]

But EK doesn't get to cast fireball till way after it's usefulness, ...

You are right. EKs probably don't cast many fireballs


And Wizards specialized schools benefits are amazing! Especially divination, amd the EK's primary spells known evocation, and abjuration,

Yes, the sub-class benefits of any given class are supposed to be significant.


He's screaming to be a sword swinging, spell slinging anti-wizard mage slayer.

Not really, that's what you want them to be. There's no indication that that's what the designers intended them to be, nor what the general gaming population wanted from a fighter subclass.


I guess what I'm saying is, with the EK around, you shouldn't still have to multiclass to get a good gish build.

Why not? Multiclassing is exactly how you make a good gish build. That or paladin/ranger (which are probably not the gishes you were thinking of). The EK is another character option realized.


Sorry for appears to be a rant, i just really feel like the EK got the shaft in this edition.

Do you feel he's fine as is? Or would you change something about him?

I think the EK is fine for what it is supposed to be, and only suffers when you expect it to do something it wasn't made for. Admittedly, if you played 3e, you might have expected something else, and I am a bit surprised that there isn't an arcane paladin-equivalent (50% spell advancement class) base class. Still, between This guy, bladesingers, valor bards, bladelocks, and multiclassing (which we still don't know why you don't want to multiclass), you can build most character concepts.

[Grod_The_Giant]

But EK doesn't get to cast fireball till way after it's usefulness, and doesn't even get 4th level spells till his career is pretty much over, not to mention how rarely any character can actually make it that far (not even just being killed off ether, groups disperse and games can and often do end unfinished, at least in my case they do)

And Wizards specialized schools benefits are amazing! Especially divination, amd the EK's primary spells known evocation, and abjuration,

He's screaming to be a sword swinging, spell slinging anti-wizard mage slayer.

But with what he's got right now, i just see a weak wizard wannabe, not a class that blends sword play and spell mastery.

I guess what I'm saying is, with the EK around, you shouldn't still have to multiclass to get a good gish build.

Sorry for appears to be a rant, i just really feel like the EK got the shaft in this edition.

Do you feel he's fine as is? Or would you change something about him?

Just curious what your opinion is and/or if you have any balancing ideas, just looking for other players inputs :smalltongue:
I get what you're saying-- the EK isn't very good at mixing big flashy evocations with martial skill. Which is disappointing-- I'd like to see something like the 3.5 Duskblade or Pathfinder Magus that's good for more than "buff yourself" or "shoot fireballs while having a high AC."

I don't really like him, but I prefer to open up his spell selection instead; that way he's a warrior with a magical utility belt, instead of just a force field. Instead of bringing the Wizard to him, I think you'd be better off bringing him to the Wizard. Have an arcane tradition that offers martial weapons, medium armor, and shields at 2nd; War Magic at 6th, Eldritch Strike at 10th, and Improved War Magic at 14th (same as when the Bard gets it; should be fine).

Simple RAW, you have a couple of options:

Blade Pact Warlock is probably the closest you'll get. You can swing a sword decently and blast fairly well, and you have the spells/invocations to be less squishy than you might think.
Dragon Sorcerer can do better than you'd think, especially if you go into it as something with weapon proficiencies. Maybe the best, now that I think about it; you get better native AC than most, and Quicken Spell is a fantastic way to cast and still fight. Your list has pretty good buffs and blasts alike, and you even get Con save proficiency.
Cleric can do decently, actually. They get some holy fire blasty spells like Spirit Guardian, and can be... okay at fighting.
Valor Bard isn't a good blaster, but you are a full caster with armor, Extra Attack, and (eventually) the ability to cast and stab in the same turn. You can use Magical Secrets at 10th to pick up a pair of flashy evocations of your choice.

Slightly expanding our net...

The Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide introduces two cantrips, Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade, that are basically "make a melee attack with an extra effect," and-- as you level up-- add enough bonus damage to the original strike to roughly keep pace with Extra Attack. They're available for Sorcerers, Wizards, and Warlocks, and being able to do without Extra Attack means a lot to us.
One level of Fighter. One starting level of Fighter does so much for a gish. Because 5e doesn't have a separate BAB like previous editions did, all you need is proficiency with a weapon and you can fight at full bonus. Fighter 1 means you start with (potentially) heavy armor, all weapons, and a fighting style-- for the first five levels, you'll be as good as any warrior.


So with those in play...

Dragon Sorcerers become very good, actually. Green Flame Blade is your friend here; the right heritage means you're adding Cha to damage with every melee attack, and you can Quicken it to make two attacks a round, each one roughly equivalent to two. Add in Fighter and you can do it in plate mail with a greatsword.
The Blade Singer (Sword Coast again) is an option, though not one I really like. It's a wizard with Extra Attack and +Int to AC twice/short rest, basically. Problem is you're still frail as ****, and you're stuck in light armor and wielding light weapons.
The Arcana Domain Cleric (Sword Coast again) can get the weapon cantrips natively and add Wis to damage with them, for a nice bit of extra oomph.
I like Fighter 1/Abjuration Wizard 19 a lot; you can rock heavy armor and boost your low hit points with Arcane Ward, and the weapon cantrips mean a solid swordy offense.


If you want a more blasty

[Tanarii]

I get what you're saying-- the EK isn't very good at mixing big flashy evocations with martial skill.I don't get this way of thinking. Between War Magic, Eldritch Strike, and Action Surge, they're one of the best at doing this even on the same round.

I'll grant they don't get to do it too often with spell slot levels, but after level 7 they can Attack & Poison Spray/Acid Splash every round if they want. Starting at level 10, they give disadvantage on the saves too. Then when the time to unload comes: 3 attacks against adjacent targets to undercut their saves, Action Surge --> drop a well-placed fireball with saves at disadvantage.

Edit: That said, they're still Fighter + some stuff, as are all the sub-classes. In this case Fighter + a bit of ranged/aoe magical blast + a bit of magical defenses. So I can see if someone was expecting a balance of Fighter + Wizard, they might be disappointed. But IMO that's one of the times when using the optional multiclassing rules really is appropriate to point to. A MC EK/Wizard is a really good mid-point between Fighter & Wizard.

[poolio]

Well thanks to the few who were actually giving me suggestions and trying to help, you seem to understand a little more about where I'm coming from and trying to say :smalltongue:

Admittedly, maybe i could have chosen my words a little better, maybe not make him a "full caster" but just something to get him some more things to play with, other then just shield, which is good don't get me wrong, i know that, but much like most Worlocks with eldritch blast, or paladins with smite, and blasty Clerics with sacred flame, it just gets a little old, and with a more regular kind of progression it could do a little more then shielding every turn.

Anyway, i guess this thread has run it's corse (and pretty quickly at that lol) if anyone else has ideas and opinions keep 'em coming, thanks guys :smallsmile:

[Tanarii]

Admittedly, maybe i could have chosen my words a little better, maybe not make him a "full caster" but just something to get him some more things to play with, other then just shield, which is good don't get me wrong, i know that, but much like most Worlocks with eldritch blast, or paladins with smite, and blasty Clerics with sacred flame, it just gets a little old, and with a more regular kind of progression it could do a little more then shielding every turn.Well, as I said, in this case I think you really will get the best results Multiclassing. EK 10/Wiz 10 knows lots of basic spells (up to level 5 spells), but can up-cast them up to level 7 slots and gets more slots than pure-class. He gets 2 attacks per round, can War Magic, and can under-cut with Eldritch Blast. As well as Action Surge. It's just a matter of how you get there ... if you balance EK & Wiz you're putting off Extra Attack all the way until level 10. Or you can push to get that first, or push to get level 3 spells first, whichever works best for you. If you want even higher spells/slots go more Wiz (EK 7/Wiz 13). Better fighting EK 12/Wiz 8. Etc.

[Douche]

Haha thanks, can this be applied to everyday life as well? Or just to this particular case?:smalltongue:

Absolutely not. I will not advocate murder or discrimination. But as long as you're playing pretend you can do as you please

[Specter]

It's fundamentally a perspective problem.

Are the spells lame compared to a Wizard? Yes, especially at higher levels.
Are the spells lame compared to maneuvers or improved critical? Not at all.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I don't get this way of thinking. Between War Magic, Eldritch Strike, and Action Surge, they're one of the best at doing this even on the same round.

I'll grant they don't get to do it too often with spell slot levels, but after level 7 they can Attack & Poison Spray/Acid Splash every round if they want. Starting at level 10, they give disadvantage on the saves too. Then when the time to unload comes: 3 attacks against adjacent targets to undercut their saves, Action Surge --> drop a well-placed fireball with saves at disadvantage.
Yeah, fair point. That probably wasn't the best way to put it. They're fantastic at cantrips, and they're good at throwing spells out and getting them to stick, but they simply don't have the slots to make effective blasters.

Actually, there's a thought. What if they used a Pact Magic type system instead, with fewer slots but always at a higher level?

[Tanarii]

Actually, there's a thought. What if they used a Pact Magic type system instead, with fewer slots but always at a higher level?Given the recent threads, I'd say you were trying to make what a lot of people mistakenly think a bladelock is supposed to be. :smallamused: I also think that SR-recovery is the Battle-master's schtick, not EKs.

Seriously tho, Int-based 1/3-caster using SR recovery could work. Lets map it out and see how it'd work, using Spell Points to convert:
3rd = 4 SP / LR = 1-1/3 / SR = 1 x 1st Level Spell / SR
4th = 6 SP / LR = 2 / SR = 1 x 1st Level Spell / SR
7th = 14 SP / LR = 4-2/3 / SR = 1 x 2nd Level Spell / SR
10th = 17 SP / LR = 5-2/3 / SR = 2 x 2nd Level Spell / SR
13th = 27 SP / LR = 9 / SR = 2 x 3rd Level Spell / SR
16th = 32 SP / LR = 10-1/3 SR = 2 x 3rd Level Spell / SR
19th = 38 SP / LR = 12-2/3 SR = 2 x 4th Level Spell / SR

So with all the other stuff removed, it becomes:
3rd = 1 x 1st Level Spell / SR
7th = 1 x 2nd Level Spell / SR
10th = 2 x 2nd Level Spell / SR
13th = 2 x 3rd Level Spell / SR
19th = 2 x 4th Level Spell / SR

[PeteNutButter]

Given the recent threads, I'd say you were trying to make what a lot of people mistakenly think a bladelock is supposed to be. :smallamused: I also think that SR-recovery is the Battle-master's schtick, not EKs.

Seriously tho, Int-based 1/3-caster using SR recovery could work. Lets map it out and see how it'd work, using Spell Points to convert:
3rd = 4 SP / LR = 1-1/3 / SR = 1 x 1st Level Spell / SR
4th = 6 SP / LR = 2 / SR = 1 x 1st Level Spell / SR
7th = 14 SP / LR = 4-2/3 / SR = 1 x 2nd Level Spell / SR
10th = 17 SP / LR = 5-2/3 / SR = 2 x 2nd Level Spell / SR
13th = 27 SP / LR = 9 / SR = 2 x 3rd Level Spell / SR
16th = 32 SP / LR = 10-1/3 SR = 2 x 3rd Level Spell / SR
19th = 38 SP / LR = 12-2/3 SR = 2 x 4th Level Spell / SR

So with all the other stuff removed, it becomes:
3rd = 1 x 1st Level Spell / SR
7th = 1 x 2nd Level Spell / SR
10th = 2 x 2nd Level Spell / SR
13th = 2 x 3rd Level Spell / SR
19th = 2 x 4th Level Spell / SR

Wouldn't it only be fair to give the same effect to any non-full caster. Effectively giving paladins short rest smites, always at their max level, with no need to MC...

As a side note there definitely needs to be another short rest caster that would stack with pact magic slots for MC purposes.

[Tanarii]

Wouldn't it only be fair to give the same effect to any non-full caster. Effectively giving paladins short rest smites, always at their max level, with no need to MC...Probably. Like I said, I consider the "recover Archetype resources on SR" to be the Battlemaster's schtick, among the Fighter paths. I was just working with what Grod suggested. I don't necessarily think it's a good idea.

[ZX6Rob]

I kind of wonder if what you want isn't a Favored Soul Sorcerer instead. Full casting, medium armor, extra attack... Might be more to your liking. I have been toying with the idea of homebrewing up a Magus, gish-in-a-can class for a while, with Paladin 1/2 casting progression, Sorcerer spells, and medium armor, but I don't know if the design space is too crowded for that right now or not.

[Spiritchaser]

I think there is definitely a missing link in the game, where an eldritch/arcane/nature half caster melee could exist. Ive been wrestling with balance on this for a while, but as things now stand you're probably best with a refluffed Paladin with a different spell list or with a fighter1 bladelock 19. Alternatively, if you are brave, look through the recent bladelock thread on how to make a Warlock do this. It doesn't take much.

[ZX6Rob]

I think there is definitely a missing link in the game, where an eldritch/arcane/nature half caster melee could exist. Ive been wrestling with balance on this for a while, but as things now stand you're probably best with a refluffed Paladin with a different spell list or with a fighter1 bladelock 19. Alternatively, if you are brave, look through the recent bladelock thread on how to make a Warlock do this. It doesn't take much.

Well, I was looking at something like that, 5-level spellcasting in medium armor with one-handed weapons and such, something like that, but the thing I keep running up against is, is there a reason to ever pick an Eldritch Knight if the, let's just call it the Magus is available, too?

I'm not saying it's not a space to explore, I just can't quite convince myself that both won't be somewhat stepping on each others' toes. Probably not, but I'd have to start working on it. Maybe that'll be a project for the weekend.

[Tanarii]

eldritch/arcane/nature half caster melee could exist.Valor Bard. Full caster even. W00T

[BillyBobShorton]

It seems that many, many players misunderstand the Eldritch Knight or how to effectively use/build him, so they complain about his spell level and school access.... He is NOT a wizard with swords and armor. He is NOT too weak as a caster. He is NOT the worst option among the fighter Archetypes (arguably the best, by far).

He IS a fighter. He IS very useful at high levels. His scaled-back spell powers ARE relevant.

With purely ASI's up to 20, he is still a decent fighter with some cool perks. But the real key to making an effective EK is player ingenuity.

Don't think of it as, "Fireball becomes useless by the time he gets it." Think of it as you get a bunch of attacks, then finish with a fireball. Can a champion cast a 4th tier firebolt and swing his sword? Can a Battle Master

You need to be pretty skilled in optimization builds to end up with something that more closely resembles a Fighter/Mage.

Using that and ingeniuty, two concepts work ideally, or a combo of both. Feats.
Multiclassing.
Dig in, and God speed.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Probably. Like I said, I consider the "recover Archetype resources on SR" to be the Battlemaster's schtick, among the Fighter paths. I was just working with what Grod suggested. I don't necessarily think it's a good idea.
I dunno, I think there's a certain virtue to keeping the base class and the archetype on the same recovery schedule-- the Battle Master (and Warlock, for that matter) certainly have enough unique features to not be threatened by that.


Well, I was looking at something like that, 5-level spellcasting in medium armor with one-handed weapons and such, something like that, but the thing I keep running up against is, is there a reason to ever pick an Eldritch Knight if the, let's just call it the Magus is available, too?

I'm not saying it's not a space to explore, I just can't quite convince myself that both won't be somewhat stepping on each others' toes. Probably not, but I'd have to start working on it. Maybe that'll be a project for the weekend.
Both the Eldritch Knight and the Bladesinger are sort of edging into the arcane gish territory, yeah. And I don't think either one quite gets there properly-- the EK is too much of a warrior, and the Bladesinger too much of a wizard; the EK too limited and the Bladesinger too broad-- but because they're coming from opposite directions, you've got some real trouble fitting anything in the middle. We sort of see that with the Ranger, which falls somewhere between Druid, Fighter, and Rogue, and always seems to suffer for it. I think if you were to make a Magus, you'd have to cut both archetype. Though you could paste them back in under the umbrella of Magus, with EK being a heavier-armored subclass and Bladesinger being a more skirmisher-oriented one.

In any case, the notion of a blaster-swordsman is a tricky one. It shouldn't be, because damage redundancy isn't really going to hurt balance too much, but it is-- mostly, I think, because of the way that 5e spell scaling works. Under the 3.5 paradigm, you could make an effective blaster class with only 4th/5th level spells, because damage ticked up automatically with caster level, not spell slot. Getting Fireball late isn't such a huge penalty when it still does "full" damage. But 5e makes it generally difficult to do a lot of damage with evocations to begin with, and if you have limited level slots you're going to fall behind even more. I feel like you'd have to rely on... I dunno, bonus damage abilities like Hex or the Evocation Wizard, or something odd like Pact Magic slots that scale faster than the levels of your spells known. (So at level 5 you might have 3rd level slots but only 2nd level spells)

[ZX6Rob]

Both the Eldritch Knight and the Bladesinger are sort of edging into the arcane gish territory, yeah. And I don't think either one quite gets there properly-- the EK is too much of a warrior, and the Bladesinger too much of a wizard; the EK too limited and the Bladesinger too broad-- but because they're coming from opposite directions, you've got some real trouble fitting anything in the middle. We sort of see that with the Ranger, which falls somewhere between Druid, Fighter, and Rogue, and always seems to suffer for it. I think if you were to make a Magus, you'd have to cut both archetype. Though you could paste them back in under the umbrella of Magus, with EK being a heavier-armored subclass and Bladesinger being a more skirmisher-oriented one.

In any case, the notion of a blaster-swordsman is a tricky one. It shouldn't be, because damage redundancy isn't really going to hurt balance too much, but it is-- mostly, I think, because of the way that 5e spell scaling works. Under the 3.5 paradigm, you could make an effective blaster class with only 4th/5th level spells, because damage ticked up automatically with caster level, not spell slot. Getting Fireball late isn't such a huge penalty when it still does "full" damage. But 5e makes it generally difficult to do a lot of damage with evocations to begin with, and if you have limited level slots you're going to fall behind even more. I feel like you'd have to rely on... I dunno, bonus damage abilities like Hex or the Evocation Wizard, or something odd like Pact Magic slots that scale faster than the levels of your spells known. (So at level 5 you might have 3rd level slots but only 2nd level spells)

Yes, exactly. Plus, you've technically got the Favored Soul Sorcerer sneaking in there with medium armor, weapons (of some stripe, at least), and full casting as well. And I'm sitting here going, "Is losing 6th through 9th level spells worth it to get a d8 hit die and martial weapons?" You'd definitely need something else.

I can totally envision something in the middle -- lightly or moderately armored, martial weapons, 5-level casting -- but I'm having a really hard time imagining a) what that class' ONE UNIQUE THING would be, besides being a gish-in-a-box, which is kind of uninteresting on its own, and b) how you'd make archetypes that are differentiated enough without stepping on the EK's, Bladesinger's, or Blade-pact Warlock's toes.

I'm going to mull it over this weekend, I think. I'm still not convinced it's impossible, but I think it will be a challenge to differentiate it enough.

{EDIT}

You know, what I want is basically something like the Sorcerer/Paladin multiclass, but without the multiclass. That's a really popular crossover, because you end up getting more or less what you want with a gish. The power to burn spell slots for melee damage is key, but I don't want to just lift that from the Paladin entirely. It's a direction to consider.

[Specter]

If you want to optimize EK, go in the opposite direction - focus on abjuration, and only use blasting when attacks would be ineffective. Target too far? Blast. Target resists non-magical weapons? Blast. Too many targets cramping one place? Blast. Shield is Shield, no matter what level you get it on.

And talking only about spells isn't fair either; the caster is losing at least Action Surge and two feats, without counting all the other stuff.

[Spore]

Strip away the cantrips and you could try an approach similar to Paladins (i.e. half casting).

[Tanarii]

Strip away the cantrips and you could try an approach similar to Paladins (i.e. half casting).Then you're changing them from someone that casts constantly to someone that occasionally has a touch of magic. That's a pretty big thematic difference.

[CaptainSarathai]

{EDIT}

You know, what I want is basically something like the Sorcerer/Paladin multiclass, but without the multiclass. That's a really popular crossover, because you end up getting more or less what you want with a gish. The power to burn spell slots for melee damage is key, but I don't want to just lift that from the Paladin entirely. It's a direction to consider.

Someone did an Arcane "Paladin" a while back. It definitely felt a little too 'paladin-y,' but it was solid. Unlike the Pally who just burns slots for damage, this class had spells worth throwing fairly often.

That said, if you've ever actually played a Sorcadin, I think it's worth pointing out that they take quite a while and quite a lot of effort before they go online. We're talking a class that's usually 2-3 levels behind ASI progression, loses ASIs over all, is about 2 levels behind on caster level, and is starved for spell slots during play because you're either burning them for Smite or burning them for Sorcery Points.

Fun, powerful class once it comes online, but until then it's not that great. By the time it does come online, the EK as a single classed build isn't too far off thematically or on the power curve.

[ZX6Rob]

Someone did an Arcane "Paladin" a while back. It definitely felt a little too 'paladin-y,' but it was solid. Unlike the Pally who just burns slots for damage, this class had spells worth throwing fairly often.

That said, if you've ever actually played a Sorcadin, I think it's worth pointing out that they take quite a while and quite a lot of effort before they go online. We're talking a class that's usually 2-3 levels behind ASI progression, loses ASIs over all, is about 2 levels behind on caster level, and is starved for spell slots during play because you're either burning them for Smite or burning them for Sorcery Points.

Fun, powerful class once it comes online, but until then it's not that great. By the time it does come online, the EK as a single classed build isn't too far off thematically or on the power curve.

I'm not a fan of Sorcadins as they are, myself. I don't like multi-classing, and you've hit on one of the reasons -- it's often great on paper, but players will find it feeling behind the curve until you get all your tricks online, and that often comes late in the game.

What I'd want to build is something that feels like an "on" Sorcadin mix from the get-go, without quite as much in the whole heavy-armor-and-casting bit.

[MeeposFire]

Strip away the cantrips and you could try an approach similar to Paladins (i.e. half casting).

Meh let them keep the cantrips. It never made much sense anyway that paladins and rangers do not get cantrips as both the lesser and greater casters both get them. Heck give them at first level to give them something more at a less than ideal level otherwise.

[Tanarii]

Meh let them keep the cantrips. It never made much sense anyway that paladins and rangers do not get cantrips as both the lesser and greater casters both get them. Heck give them at first level to give them something more at a less than ideal level otherwise.
It's a thematic difference. Cantrips imply you're so infused with magic that you can use it at any time. Which fits perfectly for the EK & AT. They're very magical, and can use magic at any time. They're just not very strongly magical.

Personally I can see that working for Paladins if they're selecting from the Cleric Cantrips (but not Sacred Flame), although maybe not at level 2. OTOH Rangers, while they've always been magical in D&D, have also been only marginally so, and originally at higher levels (lowering as editions went forward). That said, if they were granted the Druidcraft cantrip along with Primeval Awareness it'd fit.

[SillyPopeNachos]

So like the title says, would it be so bad if the EK had full caster levels? Like that of the Wizard? He's not getting any of the bonuses from any of the wizardry schools, and would still be limited to mostly evocation and abjuration spells.

Would it really break the balance between the two classes?

Yes, but some games break the normal power boundaries. If the player/group/dm all approve it, knock yourself out.

[djreynolds]

I have been reading posts about making the Eldritch Knights casting ability either full or half, and I see the dilemma, but it doesn't fix the problem.

How do you take advantage of your multiple attacks? Especially after 11th level.

The dilemma is that most of the Eldritch Knights spells do not allow him to utilize his multiple attacks, up to 3-4 attacks.

I have found that multiclassing with cleric is a better choice than multiclassing with wizard.

Or multiclass with sorcerer and/or paladin.

A paladin can smite and gets good spells for enhancing melee combat and defense, such as bless, shield of faith.

Eldritch Strike works with any spells from multiclassing, so you can just increase your wisdom or charisma instead to take advantage of Eldritch Strike that way.

I have been toying around with an idea, of incorporating a elemental weapon strike for the EK, but instead you use a spell slot to increase the damage of all your weapon attacks. Each spell slot level would add 1d4 of whatever damage type you want to add to your weapon, not radiant or necrotic though, but either an element or "force" damage.

Sort of along the lines of elemental weapon, that only the paladin has access to for some reason, or just give that spell to the EK. It would be concentration still.

[Kane0]

Do whatever you want, bro. Tell your DM that Douche says it's okay.
Thankyou for making me laugh at work. You monster.

I'm currently in a game where we are a party of 4 gestalts with 10s in all stats (before racial mods). Do whatever works for your table!

For a vanilla game though it might be a bit overboard. Best to give everyone similar power ups in that case.

[Spore]

Meh let them keep the cantrips. It never made much sense anyway that paladins and rangers do not get cantrips as both the lesser and greater casters both get them. Heck give them at first level to give them something more at a less than ideal level otherwise.

I actually like it. I feel like the martial classes have enough to do with their standard actions than to cast cantrips. They either cast a "real" spell or they attack. Tricksters like Rogues or Warlocks should rely on small permanent trickery that is cantrips. Eldritch Knights should have a few more but powerful spells. (but maybe a single damage cantrip would be nice for ranged purposes and to balance a Fighter relying on Dex and Str for both melee and ranged).

I like it too that the Rangers just KNOWS their stuff. And Paladins getting granted a bit more spell prep just because they are more charismatic. It is like the gods going: "You know what? I like THIS champion of good a bit more than that one. Give him more." It is just so like D&D gods to make illogical and biased decisions like that.

[Malifice]

So like the title says, would it be so bad if the EK had full caster levels? Like that of the Wizard? He's not getting any of the bonuses from any of the wizardry schools, and would still be limited to mostly evocation and abjuration spells.

Would it really break the balance between the two classes?

So... a Fighter/ Wizard Gestalt? A Wizard that just gets all the goodies of the Fighter?

Terrible idea mate.

[PeteNutButter]

So... a Fighter/ Wizard Gestalt? A Wizard that just gets all the goodies of the Fighter?

Terrible idea mate.

Yeah if the level 5 fighter ever says, "before we walk around that corner, I'm casting Haste on myself..."

The rest of the party watches in awe as the fighter does more DPR than all of them combined.

The barbarian says, "I'm just taking my axe and going home."

The paladin says, "I can't even smite that hard," and falls to his knees weeping to his god.

The ranger says, "Well I was never in the running anyways, so at least I get to be near greatness."

The rogue grins saying, "At least I don't have to disengage. No one is going to bother attacking me over... that."

The monk says, "But I can still stun things!"

The bladelock says, "Why isn't haste on my list? ...Oh because I get extra attack, yeah that'd be OP." Then goes all sour grapes, "I have a dreadful AC and lack con save prof, so I couldn't maintain haste anyways."

The valor bard archer says, "Just wait till level 10 and I'll be making four attacks too!" To which the fighter just laughs knowing he'll have 5 attacks by level 11, and plenty of slots to spam haste, and things like Disintegrate and Chain Lightning...

Their only hope is that when the fighter hits level 17 he casts WISH and wishes for his class to be balanced.:smallwink:

[MeeposFire]

I actually like it. I feel like the martial classes have enough to do with their standard actions than to cast cantrips. They either cast a "real" spell or they attack. Tricksters like Rogues or Warlocks should rely on small permanent trickery that is cantrips. Eldritch Knights should have a few more but powerful spells. (but maybe a single damage cantrip would be nice for ranged purposes and to balance a Fighter relying on Dex and Str for both melee and ranged).

I like it too that the Rangers just KNOWS their stuff. And Paladins getting granted a bit more spell prep just because they are more charismatic. It is like the gods going: "You know what? I like THIS champion of good a bit more than that one. Give him more." It is just so like D&D gods to make illogical and biased decisions like that.

Personally I wouldn't bother with attack cantrips it would be more fun to take things like prestidigitation, mending, light, what have you.

[Vogonjeltz]

So like the title says, would it be so bad if the EK had full caster levels? Like that of the Wizard? He's not getting any of the bonuses from any of the wizardry schools, and would still be limited to mostly evocation and abjuration spells.

Would it really break the balance between the two classes?

This would result in a fighter who could counterspell and lock down any other full caster.

[jaappleton]

There is a version of the EK with full spellcasting.

It's called the Bladesinger.

[Vogonjeltz]

There is a version of the EK with full spellcasting.

It's called the Bladesinger.

Yes it just lacks hit points, melee offense, action surge, combat teleportation, and among a laundry list of other things, heavy armor.

[jaappleton]

Yes it just lacks hit points, melee offense, action surge, combat teleportation, and among a laundry list of other things, heavy armor.

Well giving the Fighter anything more than 1/3rd spellcasting results in somethings entirely broken.

[Vogonjeltz]

Well giving the Fighter anything more than 1/3rd spellcasting results in somethings entirely broken.

I agree, I'm just saying the bladesinger is simply flip flopping to the reverse "problem"

[ZX6Rob]

Well, I've been plugging at some homebrew for the past few hours on and off for the past couple of days, trying to come up with a "Spellblade" class in the vein of the 3.5 Duskblade and the Pathfinder Magus. Something with half-spellcasting, like the Paladin and Ranger, but with arcane spells. I went for d8 hit dice, medium armor, simple weapons, a handful of martial weapons, and no shields. I also tried to avoid the Paladin's trick of spending spell slots for more raw damage (that's his deal, and I didn't want to step on toes).

I have to say, though, I had a real hard time with it. I felt hemmed in and squeezed a bit by the existence of the Eldritch Knight (whose thing is really the whole "I can cast spells and attack in the same round", which was really the focus of the Magus/Duskblade) and the Bladesinger (who already casts better than either, but has some good effects and abilities to increase its otherwise-squishy resiliency).

Where I started having trouble was, "What makes this different than the other two?" Ultimately, I had just about enough room to make the base class, with just the spellcasting, some cantrips, proficiencies, and a couple of extra features. Trying to get into archetypes and find room for more features without running over the toes of existing classes was pretty difficult. I'm starting to wonder if there's actually enough design space left in the system to do what I was thinking here.

A better designer than I could probably find a unique angle to make that work, but I think it has to be some kind of additional theme to avoid seeming crowded, and I don't know what that would be.

[Kane0]

As a half pact magic caster perhaps?
Much less competition (only the bladelock) and a short rest INT caster would be pretty unique

[ZX6Rob]

As a half pact magic caster perhaps?
Much less competition (only the bladelock) and a short rest INT caster would be pretty unique

Well, you know, I thought about that, but I really like the idea that the whole pact-magic thing is unique to the Warlock. I don't know if I'd want to build another class that gets that. I feel like it'd be like giving Divine Smite or Metamagic to another class -- like it'd dilute the original class in doing so.

Plus, I get the impression that what people are looking for in an arcane half-caster is something more like an Eldritch Knight++, you know? I think the frustrations with the EK (which I understand, but don't necessarily share myself) come from feeling somewhat limited by the slots allotted to a 1/3-caster chassis coupled with the very limited spells known. If we were to try to put together a unique, arcane, 1/2-casting class, two things that are needed are prepared spells and wizard-style spell slots, as a means of recovering the perceived loss in versatility that EKs give up for martial prowess.

[ZZTRaider]

I wonder how it would work out to have a class with spell slots like a half or full caster, but the spells known of a third or half caster, respectively.

It would certainly add some complication to multiclassing, but it seems like a potentially interesting design space that might deal with some of the issues people have with Eldritch Knight.

[Tanarii]

I agree, I'm just saying the bladesinger is simply flip flopping to the reverse "problem"Agreed, especially with putting "problem" in quotes.

EK, Bladesinger and (recently) Bladelock have become my barometer for a forum poster's basic understanding of the idea of class balance. If you can't understand that a single character class can't be awesome at melee (ie tank level HPs, AC, and damage) and a full arcane caster at the same time, you have no business trying to discuss home brewing class modifications and trying to present them to the forum as a 'fix'.

Ditto for understanding that classes are archetypes and are designed with a basic expectation of what they're good at, and what they're not so good at. And that classes are balanced around the idea that feats and mulitclassing are optional rules not required rules.

[Willie the Duck]

I wonder how it would work out to have a class with spell slots like a half or full caster, but the spells known of a third or half caster, respectively.

It would certainly add some complication to multiclassing, but it seems like a potentially interesting design space that might deal with some of the issues people have with Eldritch Knight.

Well, multiclass casters are kinda like that (say a cleric 10/wizard 10, which has 9th level slots, but only up to 5th level spells). Even moreso, a sword & board paladin/sorcerer is in that boat up until they can pick up war-caster--they are picking up casting at twice their paladin advancement, but don't really gain any spells (that they can cast in combat) for several levels. It's interesting to think about, but I'm not sure that it opens up any real options that a arcane-paladin/ranger-equivalent wouldn't also have.

[ZX6Rob]

EK, Bladesinger and (recently) Bladelock have become my barometer for a forum poster's basic understanding of the idea of class balance. If you can't understand that a single character class can't be awesome at melee (ie tank level HPs, AC, and damage) and a full arcane caster at the same time, you have no business trying to discuss home brewing class modifications and trying to present them to the forum as a 'fix'.

Who did that? A dude (or dudette, I didn't check) asked if it would be breaking to give the EK full spellcasting, a bunch of people said "no, that's not a good idea," and then a few of us started brainstorming about what an arcane half-casting class would look like.

Outside of the initial question, who's really saying that we should have a full-armored, d10, four-attacks-per-round, 9th-level-casting, magic-item-crafting, mount-summoning, skill-monkey Mary Sue class? I went through the Bladelock thread as well, and tempers got heated, sure, but I don't think that's really happening here.

[Herobizkit]

OD&D had true gish Elves with armor and weapons and full casting... 'course, they also needed 4k xp to get to level 2.

S'like there has to be some kind of balancing factor to ensure they don't overtake the rest of the party in power.

Bladesinger is the best answer.


Yes it just lacks hit points, melee offense, action surge, combat teleportation, and among a laundry list of other things, heavy armor.


When you have a high defense and high DEX, HP don't matter if you can't get hit. Absorb Elements for energy attacks.
Melee offense is the same as every other character, [weapon]+[stat]. If you want to swing greatswords, invest in STR.
Action Surge? Yeah, but only Fighters get one. Paladins/Rangers/Barbarians adn every other class does fine without one.
Combat Teleportation? Play an Eladrin.
Heavy Armor? Don't need it. Shield + High Dex + Bladesong + Light armor is great and doesn't impose Stealth disadvantage.

[CaptainSarathai]

Yeah if the level 5 fighter ever says, "before we walk around that corner, I'm casting Haste on myself..."

The rest of the party watches in awe as the fighter does more DPR than all of them combined.

Not really. He gets 1 extra attack with Haste. Not an extra action. And EKs can do this at later levels anyway.
I do agree that making an EK a full caster is a problem.


Well, you know, I thought about that, but I really like the idea that the whole pact-magic thing is unique to the Warlock. I don't know if I'd want to build another class that gets that. I feel like it'd be like giving Divine Smite or Metamagic to another class -- like it'd dilute the original class in doing so.
I think, actually, you could kill 2 birds with one stone here. By creating another Pact Magic style class, you could potentially solve the issues that people have not only with the Eldritch Knight, but also the BladeLock and maybe even Singer. Based on...



EK, Bladesinger and (recently) Bladelock have become my barometer for a forum poster's basic understanding of the idea of class balance. If you can't understand that a single character class can't be awesome at melee (ie tank level HPs, AC, and damage) and a full arcane caster at the same time, you have no business trying to discuss home brewing class modifications and trying to present them to the forum as a 'fix'.

Ditto for understanding that classes are archetypes and are designed with a basic expectation of what they're good at, and what they're not so good at. And that classes are balanced around the idea that feats and mulitclassing are optional rules not required rules.
Man, it's like, "elite salt."
I agree on all counts that a class has something it's good at, and that archetypes are meant to nudge them towards another style and not necessarily make them equivalent to a class in that style. I can agree with you on that, at least.
I also stand by my assessment that the entire Warlock class is not necessarily unbalanced, but poorly designed.

I think that the problem people are having with the current 'Magical Archetypes' is exactly what you pointed out: they aren't meant to create a 50/50 split, they are always mostly their core class with just a dash of whatever they dabble in.

What people seem to be wanting (any reasonable person, at least) is a clean, 50/50 split. For that, we would need an entirely new class. The nearest class to this would be the Paladin, which makes it an ideal starting place. It has:
Half-Casting capability
All Armor, and Shield proficiency
Martial Melee Weapon proficiency
Respectable melee DPR and use for spells
All on a traditional ASI framework. Incidentally, that traditional ASI progression makese think that an EK as a Half-Caster wouldn't be bad, if you removed the bonus ASIs gained by Fighters. The idea is that a Fighter on its own, even as an EK or BM isn't that good on its own, so it gets extra ASIs to make up for it. Add any other advantage, and you have to take those away. Not sure if Half-Caster = ASIs exactly, bit based on what we've seen from the Paladin, I think it would be pretty close.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I wonder how it would work out to have a class with spell slots like a half or full caster, but the spells known of a third or half caster, respectively.

It would certainly add some complication to multiclassing, but it seems like a potentially interesting design space that might deal with some of the issues people have with Eldritch Knight.
Agreed; that was my rationale behind the half-pact-caster as well. The 4th-level-casters in particular suffer from the lack of scaling within a spell slot, so letting them, say, cast all of their spells as if they were coming from a slot one-two levels higher wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea. It would let you do at least some respectable blasting as an EK...

[Vogonjeltz]

•When you have a high defense and high DEX, HP don't matter if you can't get hit. Absorb Elements for energy attacks.
•Melee offense is the same as every other character, [weapon]+[stat]. If you want to swing greatswords, invest in STR.
•Action Surge? Yeah, but only Fighters get one. Paladins/Rangers/Barbarians adn every other class does fine without one.
•Combat Teleportation? Play an Eladrin.
•Heavy Armor? Don't need it. Shield + High Dex + Bladesong + Light armor is great and doesn't impose Stealth disadvantage.


Bladesinger defense is reliant on a time limited ability, which is itself a serious flaw. As you note, they don't have HP, so when they do get into trouble they get dead rather than being able to ride it out based on durability the way an EK could.

Melee Offense is not even close to the same as being a Fighter with multiple Extra Attack; lacking two-handed weapons makes them inferior melee combatants from the get go, and that's when compared to classes that only have one level of Extra attack, let alone 3. Take the exact same character who is a Bladesinger and slot them into an EK kit and they automatically would be dealing double damage thanks to having twice as many attacks (at least).

Re: Action Surge statement...the comparison claim that I was responding to was literally that Bladesinger is an EK with full casting. Paladin/Ranger/Barbarian is irrelevent, but to your point, those classes all have substantial melee combat abilities that the Bladesinger also lacks.

Eladrin aren't a class or a core race.

As mentioned at the top of the list, Bladesinging is time limited and limited use, spell slots are also limited use and AC is great and all, but it doesn't prevent critical hits which are inevitable nor does it save the character from AoE damage. Low hit points are a serious liability no matter how good ones defenses get.


All on a traditional ASI framework. Incidentally, that traditional ASI progression makese think that an EK as a Half-Caster wouldn't be bad, if you removed the bonus ASIs gained by Fighters. The idea is that a Fighter on its own, even as an EK or BM isn't that good on its own, so it gets extra ASIs to make up for it. Add any other advantage, and you have to take those away. Not sure if Half-Caster = ASIs exactly, bit based on what we've seen from the Paladin, I think it would be pretty close.

I agree it would need to have the base class altered, but I'd argue the culprit in this case is 3rd and 4th attacks. 9th level casting simply can't co-exist with those (By default a full caster can't get even extra attack without it being a subclass feature or niche invocation assuming we count Warlocks as full casters).

There's also the problem of how to address spell casting progression if it's something that comes in a subclass vs a core class feature.