Dragon Wild Shape Hit Die limit

[RedMage125]

One of my players is a Druid 4/Wizard 3/Arcane Heirophant 5 (effective druid level for wild shape 9). He just took Dragon Wild Shape this last level.

The feat says he may assume the form of a Small or Medium dragon. I'm pretty sure that he's still limited by the Hit Dice limit of the general wild shape ability. So only 9 HD dragons, and not "any" Small or Medium dragon.

I guess I'm looking for confirmation of that, but also asking if he can turn into advanced versions of the dragons within his HD limit. A 9-HD Red Wyrmling, for example, instead of the default 7 HD (they become Very Young at 10 HD). I'm not entirely sure about that, however. I know it would boost his breath weapon DCs, but there's also the issue of an extra feat or stat boost when he crosses the 8 or 9 HD threshold.

I'm inclined to say no to the advanced dragonling. But that's a moot point if I'm wrong about the HD limit.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Advanced wyrmlings are not in the Monster Manual, so remain within DM purview only. It is not unreasonable to say they exist, but you don't have to make them available.

Not sure about the other bit, but I would generally assume the HD limit holds. I would read the feat as saying 'add dragon forms to the list of things you can turn into' without changing other limits, but it might be more complicated than that.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You have the right idea on the HD limit. It follows all the normal rules of Wild Shape except where stated (shifting into small or medium dragons, getting ex and su abilities).

As for the second, you should reread the rules on wild shape. Specifically the rules for Alternate Form and what you do and don't get, because the HD of the dragon you shift into have absolutely no relevance for anything beyond being able to shift into one. For everything else you use your characters own HD.

Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
That includes the DCs for breath weapon (10 + 1/2HD + Con), Frightful Presence (10 + 1/2HD + Cha) and any other special abilities who generally follow the same formula - in general physical abilities use Con, mental and supernatural abilities use Cha. You can tell which is which by looking at the given DC and calculating it yourself.

[RedMage125]

Advanced wyrmlings are not in the Monster Manual, so remain within DM purview only. It is not unreasonable to say they exist, but you don't have to make them available.
I don't mean to be rude, but they absolutely are.

Under the stat block for each color dragon, there's a line for "Advancement" with Hit Die. For Reds for example, it says "wyrmling 8-9 HD; Very Young 11-12 HD...etc."


Not sure about the other bit, but I would generally assume the HD limit holds. I would read the feat as saying 'add dragon forms to the list of things you can turn into' without changing other limits, but it might be more complicated than that.
Thankfully it specifies Small and Medium dragons only. If it just added the dragon type, then Large and Huge dragons would eventually be on the table.


You have the right idea on the HD limit. It follows all the normal rules of Wild Shape except where stated (shifting into small or medium dragons, getting ex and su abilities).

As for the second, you should reread the rules on wild shape. Specifically the rules for Alternate Form and what you do and don't get, because the HD of the dragon you shift into have absolutely no relevance for anything beyond being able to shift into one. For everything else you use your characters own HD.

That includes the DCs for breath weapon (10 + 1/2HD + Con), Frightful Presence (10 + 1/2HD + Cha) and any other special abilities who generally follow the same formula - in general physical abilities use Con, mental and supernatural abilities use Cha. You can tell which is which by looking at the given DC and calculating it yourself.

Lol, I keep forgetting the errata changed wild shape to be more like Alternate Form ability.

So...he's still limited to 9 HD, though for consideration of those save DCs, right? Because his 3 wizard HD don't boost his wild shape ability?

[eggynack]

While the answer that HD advancement doesn't really do anything here is accurate, it seems relevant to point out that other similar forms of advancement can have impact. Obvious example is using the advancement line of animals to get larger sizes, and the weirdest and most dubious example is using fangshields druid substitution levels to get humanoid forms, thus granting access to the "By character class" form of advancement. So, with associated stakes thus established, it becomes a lot more relevant to say that I think the situation is an ambiguous one. The argument against is the fact that you're allowed to say you're becoming a bear, which is a specific animal, or a specifically aged dragon, which seems to have delineation beyond traditional advancement, but HD is something of a metagame construct, and saying you're going to become a bear that happens to have more HD and thus large size seems outside the bounds of the ability. The argument for is that, well, a bear is a bear, and this bear is identified in the rules as existing, with a clear implied stat block, so there's not much reason to say you can't become it. There isn't really much evidence on either side, but I'd tend towards the former position, primarily because the latter leads directly to the absurdity that is wild shape for class levels.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Thankfully it specifies Small and Medium dragons only. If it just added the dragon type, then Large and Huge dragons would eventually be on the table.
You can get the dragon type with up to gargantuan size from MoMF, but it's not as impressive as you'd think. Big dragons generally have tons of HD, so getting to the really impressive varieties doesn't happen until way into epic. It also doesn't grant Su abilities, so no breath weapon or frightful presence.
There's also the epic DWS feat, but it's limited to the MM1 dragons (which all pretty much suck compared to other varieties).

Frankly you're going to have tons of better options by the time really big dragons become an option. Magical Beast Wildshape is probably the direct competition, and it grants all supernatural abilities and some of those are pretty ridiculous.
There's also the wonderfully broken Aberration Wild Shape, which starts of great long before dragon forms and only gets better as your WS HD increase. The only downside is the feat tax and possible flavor issues.
The only thing stronger is Planar Shepherds outsider shape (with a good plane), and that's pretty universally recognized as hilariously overpowered.


So...he's still limited to 9 HD, though for consideration of those save DCs, right? Because his 3 wizard HD don't boost his wild shape ability?
No, it's total HD, not just WS HD. Actual dragons also count HD from class levels (if any), not just racial HD.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I don't mean to be rude, but they absolutely are.

Under the stat block for each color dragon, there's a line for "Advancement" with Hit Die. For Reds for example, it says "wyrmling 8-9 HD; Very Young 11-12 HD...etc."
But they're not there, as in, they're not written out, named, statblock'd - a problem with dragons in general, but more so here. The potential for advancement is there, but the DM must apply the rules first. In the case of dragons and Wild Shape, it's important to decide how their NA improves (usually +1/HD), and the same for ability scores. For non-WS dragons, casting is a major point, as is skill distribution and feat selection.

As per eggynack's reasoning, I would say that advanced wyrmlings are 'not in the MM', in the sense that they can't be picked and used as targets of Wild Shape.

[eggynack]

As per eggynack's reasoning, I would say that advanced wyrmlings are 'not in the MM', in the sense that they can't be picked and used as targets of Wild Shape.
Yeah, I tend towards that side of arguments. So murky though. It's something about form changing that attracts these ridiculous unresolvable rules issues which require "best fit" solutions.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Yeah, I tend towards that side of arguments. So murky though. It's something about form changing that attracts these ridiculous unresolvable rules issues which require "best fit" solutions.
D&D isn't the only game with those issues. A lot of video games have problems with shapeshifting, like equipment being lost/not functioning when it should (or the reverse), stats not being used correctly (looking at you, Dragon Age shapeshifter) or carrying over to other forms, balance issues and gameplay issues (Skyrim vampires - can't even sneak, use weapons, or cast spells in vampire form, for real?). Basically, shapeshifting is super hard to do well.

[RedMage125]

While the answer that HD advancement doesn't really do anything here is accurate, it seems relevant to point out that other similar forms of advancement can have impact. Obvious example is using the advancement line of animals to get larger sizes, and the weirdest and most dubious example is using fangshields druid substitution levels to get humanoid forms, thus granting access to the "By character class" form of advancement. So, with associated stakes thus established, it becomes a lot more relevant to say that I think the situation is an ambiguous one. The argument against is the fact that you're allowed to say you're becoming a bear, which is a specific animal, or a specifically aged dragon, which seems to have delineation beyond traditional advancement, but HD is something of a metagame construct, and saying you're going to become a bear that happens to have more HD and thus large size seems outside the bounds of the ability. The argument for is that, well, a bear is a bear, and this bear is identified in the rules as existing, with a clear implied stat block, so there's not much reason to say you can't become it. There isn't really much evidence on either side, but I'd tend towards the former position, primarily because the latter leads directly to the absurdity that is wild shape for class levels.
I think that's apples and oranges, because HD is a metagame concept. Advancement "by character class" is strictly different from HD advancement (look into the "improving monsters" section of the Monster Manual). Regular HD advancement is something that can just happen in nature. If a 17th Level Druid wants to wild shape into a Dire Bear, the MM tells us that at 17 HD DIre Bears become Huge. This is something that happens as Dire Bears grow. You wil note that many animals, when advancing Hit Dice do NOT get larger in size, this is because they don't naturally grow any bigger. Since the PHB tells us that the druid's wild shape form HD is limited by his druid level, and can thus only WS into forms with HD equal to his druid level or less (exact wording is "HD cannot exceed her druid level"), wouldn't that mean ALL 17th druids can become Huge Dire Bears? After all, as per Alternate Form, the druid uses his own Hit Dice, right?


I'm genuinely curious about the matter now beyond my player's dragon thing. Can a straight-up 17th level druid become a Huge Dire Bear? After all, Dire Bears get that big in nature, once they hit 17 HD. And the only requirement for his Wild Shape limit is that he can't assume forms with HD greater than his druid level.

Now I'm not familiar with the fangshield druid thing, but I'm pretty sure the distinction between advancing hit dice (which is explicitly a "superior specimen" kind of thing) and getting class levels are totally different. Wild Shaping to get class levels seems munchkin-y.


You can get the dragon type with up to gargantuan size from MoMF, but it's not as impressive as you'd think. Big dragons generally have tons of HD, so getting to the really impressive varieties doesn't happen until way into epic. It also doesn't grant Su abilities, so no breath weapon or frightful presence.
There's also the epic DWS feat, but it's limited to the MM1 dragons (which all pretty much suck compared to other varieties).
Yeah, but all told for cost/benefit analysis, those are inferior options.

Also, he's still restricted by the WS limitation of being "familiar with" dragon types. Thankfully, he planned ahead, and while in the last large city they were in, he explicitly spent some time researching dragons. I told him common knowledge would only get him the 10 basic MM types...for now. Once he encounters another kind, he can use that form.


Frankly you're going to have tons of better options by the time really big dragons become an option. Magical Beast Wildshape is probably the direct competition, and it grants all supernatural abilities and some of those are pretty ridiculous.
There's also the wonderfully broken Aberration Wild Shape, which starts of great long before dragon forms and only gets better as your WS HD increase. The only downside is the feat tax and possible flavor issues.
The only thing stronger is Planar Shepherds outsider shape (with a good plane), and that's pretty universally recognized as hilariously overpowered.
I know. Those are off the table. As DM, I vetoed those ones.

Wait...where does Magical Beast Wildshape come from? I don't think I vetoed that.

But I doubt he'd want it. Dragons explicitly speak Common and have the capacity to cast spells with somatic components. So dragon shape allows him to still cast.



No, it's total HD, not just WS HD. Actual dragons also count HD from class levels (if any), not just racial HD.
I don't think that's right. Other beings with DCs set by (10+half HD+X stat mod) do not count HD from class levels into that save DC. I don't see a specific exception mentioned for dragons.

And I know he's limited to 9 HD for wild shape forms because the WS entry says "Hit Dice cannot exceed druid level". And Arcane Heirophant levels explicitly stack with druid ones for that purpose. So no, his Wiz levels don't count for that.

The best case I can see is that even he is a wyrmling red dragon (default HD of 7), he'd be considered 9 HD for calculating save DCs.


But they're not there, as in, they're not written out, named, statblock'd - a problem with dragons in general, but more so here. The potential for advancement is there, but the DM must apply the rules first.
But that's true of all dragons across all age categories. Except the few built as an example of each kind, every dragon must be built uniquely (which is why I love the Draconomicon). It's unfair to say that advanced ones "don't exist". Dragons gain HD as they age and grow stronger. The theory is, these go hand in hand. When a Red Dragon is hatched, it has 7 HD. It gains HD as it ages, and when it reaches the appropriate age, it gets its 10th HD and becomes Very Young. That's how the fluff interacts with the mechanics, anyway.


In the case of dragons and Wild Shape, it's important to decide how their NA improves (usually +1/HD), and the same for ability scores. For non-WS dragons, casting is a major point, as is skill distribution and feat selection.
Never noticed the natural armor progression (which, btw is (+1 x HD)-1). He already uses an Lesser Extend Rod to cast Barkskin all the time. His AC is already ridiculous.


As per eggynack's reasoning, I would say that advanced wyrmlings are 'not in the MM', in the sense that they can't be picked and used as targets of Wild Shape.

Please refer to my points to eggynack. I'm not sure about this. I see what might constitute RAW support, but not enough to call it one way or the other...

[eggynack]

I think that's apples and oranges, because HD is a metagame concept. Advancement "by character class" is strictly different from HD advancement (look into the "improving monsters" section of the Monster Manual). Regular HD advancement is something that can just happen in nature. If a 17th Level Druid wants to wild shape into a Dire Bear, the MM tells us that at 17 HD DIre Bears become Huge. This is something that happens as Dire Bears grow. You wil note that many animals, when advancing Hit Dice do NOT get larger in size, this is because they don't naturally grow any bigger. Since the PHB tells us that the druid's wild shape form HD is limited by his druid level, and can thus only WS into forms with HD equal to his druid level or less (exact wording is "HD cannot exceed her druid level"), wouldn't that mean ALL 17th druids can become Huge Dire Bears? After all, as per Alternate Form, the druid uses his own Hit Dice, right?
I'm genuinely curious about the matter now beyond my player's dragon thing. Can a straight-up 17th level druid become a Huge Dire Bear? After all, Dire Bears get that big in nature, once they hit 17 HD. And the only requirement for his Wild Shape limit is that he can't assume forms with HD greater than his druid level.
It's just not clear that this huge dire bear is a creature meaningfully identifiable by a druid as a target for wild shape. It's not precisely a named creature, after all, but rather is one implied by the stat block. All I can really say is that, the last time this came up, we weren't really able to arrive at any sort of satisfying answer, unless you're weirdly satisfied by ambiguity. Either way, you definitely wouldn't take the huge for automatically. You're taking the form of this particular animal, the dire bear, with all the stats that implies. It has a stat block and everything. Either the huge dire bear is a distinct creature that you can specifically become, or its advancement is folded into the intrinsic nature of dire bears and you can't become them. There doesn't seem to be much justification for being forced to be huge.


Now I'm not familiar with the fangshield druid thing, but I'm pretty sure the distinction between advancing hit dice (which is explicitly a "superior specimen" kind of thing) and getting class levels are totally different. Wild Shaping to get class levels seems munchkin-y.
The substitution levels let you take on humanoid forms. That's basically it in its entirety. And if a rules premised distinction between advancing by level and advancing by HD or size+HD is justifiable, then I'm not aware of that justification. They seem substantially different only in that one ability is wonky as hell while the other isn't, rather than due to some quality of form advanceent

[RedMage125]

It's just not clear that this huge dire bear is a creature meaningfully identifiable by a druid as a target for wild shape. It's not precisely a named creature, after all, but rather is one implied by the stat block. All I can really say is that, the last time this came up, we weren't really able to arrive at any sort of satisfying answer, unless you're weirdly satisfied by ambiguity. Either way, you definitely wouldn't take the huge for automatically. You're taking the form of this particular animal, the dire bear, with all the stats that implies. It has a stat block and everything. Either the huge dire bear is a distinct creature that you can specifically become, or its advancement is folded into the intrinsic nature of dire bears and you can't become them. There doesn't seem to be much justification for being forced to be huge.
You wouldn't be "forced" to be Huge, if that were the case you would be unable to take forms that had less HD than your druid level. The HD of the form assumed "cannot exceed" your druid level.
Since Dire Bears can and DO grow to huge size in nature, by virtue of being an exceptional specimen (likely an apex predator), it could be a valid form. You see what I'm saying? It's not like a Huge Dire Bear is a specific creature, like a unique individual. But rather, that they CAN grow that big. And once a druid's own ability to assume animal forms reached a certain level (she is 17th level, can already assume Huge forms), when she uses WS to assume the form of a Dire Bear, a Huge one is an option. Obviously, the player and/or the DM would have to work out the stats for such a creature, using the MM chapter on Improving Monsters. Stat bonuses from going from Large to Huge are included in that section, as well as natural armor increases base damage of attacks, and so on. This should be somethign worked out between sessions, and not bog down game play.
Ease of use (that is, the monster's stat block was not done ahead of time) seems to me to be the only reason to bar this. Huge Dire Bears exist as per the RAW. There just isn't a ready-made stat block for them. But the same could be said for most dragons in the MM.


The substitution levels let you take on humanoid forms. That's basically it in its entirety. And if a rules premised distinction between advancing by level and advancing by HD or size+HD is justifiable, then I'm not aware of that justification. They seem substantially different only in that one ability is wonky as hell while the other isn't, rather than due to some quality of form advanceent
Right, except that "by character class" is a specific form of advancement, separate from "adding Hit Dice". That is unique to individual creatures, unlike the Huge Dire Bear, which is something that could happen to ANY Dire Bear who lives long enough and gets strong enough.
Seriously, go check out your Monster Manual.

[eggynack]

You wouldn't be "forced" to be Huge, if that were the case you would be unable to take forms that had less HD than your druid level. The HD of the form assumed "cannot exceed" your druid level.
I thought you meant that you were becoming a dire bear, and you happen to have this many HD, and that a quality of having that many HD is that the dire bear you become is huge.


Since Dire Bears can and DO grow to huge size in nature, by virtue of being an exceptional specimen (likely an apex predator), it could be a valid form. You see what I'm saying? It's not like a Huge Dire Bear is a specific creature, like a unique individual. But rather, that they CAN grow that big. And once a druid's own ability to assume animal forms reached a certain level (she is 17th level, can already assume Huge forms), when she uses WS to assume the form of a Dire Bear, a Huge one is an option.
Sure, I get it. You're just not necessarily correct. As I said at the outset, it could well be a valid form, or it could well not be. It depends on how broadly you read the druid's capacity to turn into "animals", or, rather, how you read the advancement section's inner workings. Bears grow huge in nature, but maybe that's not a thing defined as a separate creature that you can become. There's a big ol' dire bear stat block sitting right there that defines how a dire bear operates, and there isn't a second bear stat block for a huge version of the dire bear. Maybe "creature" is stat block centered, or maybe it's broadly defined by all the creatures implied by the text.


Obviously, the player and/or the DM would have to work out the stats for such a creature, using the MM chapter on Improving Monsters. Stat bonuses from going from Large to Huge are included in that section, as well as natural armor increases base damage of attacks, and so on. This should be somethign worked out between sessions, and not bog down game play.
Ease of use (that is, the monster's stat block was not done ahead of time) seems to me to be the only reason to bar this. Huge Dire Bears exist as per the RAW. There just isn't a ready-made stat block for them. But the same could be said for most dragons in the MM.
It looks like dragons are pretty well defined in terms of stat block. Beyond that, yes, this can be worked out if you need to work it out.


Right, except that "by character class" is a specific form of advancement, separate from "adding Hit Dice". That is unique to individual creatures, unlike the Huge Dire Bear, which is something that could happen to ANY Dire Bear who lives long enough and gets strong enough.
Seriously, go check out your Monster Manual.
It's a specific form of advancement, but there's no reason to think it's a specific form of advancement that you wouldn't be able to access. It doesn't matter if any elf could become a wizard, or only specific ones. What matters is that you're defining the thing implied by the advancement section of the stat block as a creature unto itself, one that can act as the end product of wild shape. Given that, there doesn't seem to be a rules reason to accept one and reject the other.

Anyway, this really seems to be one of those things that falls under strict ambiguity. That is, there is no perfect RAW answer to whether you can access these forms. My reductio ad absurdum argument relating to class levels isn't really relevant to RAW status. It's just something you should consider when choosing one arbitrary side or the other, because it means that one arbitrary side has really weird and unavoidable stuff on it.