New Vampire Handbook

[MwaO]

I've gotten a little annoyed at the lack of respect Vampire the class gets from an optimization standpoint. So I'm writing up a real guide over time.

Basically, Vampires are tough as all get out - they just need a single surge, either from having an extra one or from a donated by the party, and they heal to full at the end of every combat. That makes them very efficient users of healing surges provided they can make the DM want to kill them and make sure that the rest of the party understands how useful that is.

That's in essence where the guide is - how to make the DM want to kill them - as an example, the Champion of Order build is handing out all sorts of mass sanctioning and weakened/dazed options. You don't attack the Vampire, he's going to do a lot of damage to Team Monster in a distributed way.

Here's where it is at right now. Not done in the slightest. Thoughts and comments welcomed:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?496953-Vampire-Past-the-Masquerade-How-Not-to-Suck&p=6927516#post6927516

[Verbannon]

I always found vampires to be an underappreciated class. But I find most optimizers in 4e, for some reason are rather terrible at actually playing 4e. They really don't need any changes. What most people don't get is that although they are called and labeled a striker class, they aren't. They are a 'fifth member' class.

Tactically I find them best used out in a flanking position. This way they have the option of using their two forced movement at wills as a secondary form of control if necessary. But in lieu of that they primarily isolate an enemy and beat them, they get enough damage boosters they can serve as a striker here, though if a somewhat weak striker. More then a secondary but less then a typical primary. Their regeneration allows the party healer to expend her limited supply of heals to allies. And with the fact that all koed creatures are considered consenting, a vampire arguably never needs to spend healing surges post battle to heal as long as she kos an enemy creature. And the vampire gets an astounding number of utilities. Making it one of the best 5th member classes imo.

[MeeposFire]

Vampire is actually a class that does well in a "typical" game. They are hard to get much more out of them due to restrictions with their powers but compared to a poorly made original class they will tend to look better since they have fewer things that you can accidentally screw up.

Now there is one cool optimization benefit you may not know about jt that I liked to bring up on the old boards which is that vampires interact VERY well with artificers. Artificers heal without having you spend a healing surge which is good for a vampire but that is actually a lesser benefit. The REAL benefit is how they get their abilities back. Artificers gain back their healing powers by having himself or allies spend healing surges to get back their healing. Now vampires can get more than their max in healing surges in a fight. Now if you have two or more healing surges than your max the vampire can choose to give all but the one extra to the artificer to gain back his healing power and then the vampire can use the last extra surge to heal back up to full health.

Lucky and well played vampires can keep the party going all day by fueling the artificer who then heals others without the rest of the party spending any surges. It can really extend the work day.

[Kurald Galain]

They are a 'fifth member' class.
That argument is always funny when it comes up (usually for hunters or other weak classes). "Fifth member" is not a party role, and it is a direct admission that every other role would have been better in the fifth slot. 4E is the kind of game that rewards being good at one thing over being mediocre at several.


Tactically I find them best used out in a flanking position.
Tactically, almost every melee class is best used in a flanking position :smallbiggrin:

[Verbannon]

That argument is always funny when it comes up (usually for hunters or other weak classes). "Fifth member" is not a party role, and it is a direct admission that every other role would have been better in the fifth slot. 4E is the kind of game that rewards being good at one thing over being mediocre at several.


Tactically, almost every melee class is best used in a flanking position :smallbiggrin:

Real flanking position not the combat advantage type flank.

And there are fifth member classes. Bard for example is the archtypical 5th member class . Few people say bard sucks in 4e, but it also happens to be the weakest in combat leader class for doing leader stuff.

Also I have to disagree. 4e is is about tactics more then builds, the result is that the most optmized builds in the hands of players with all the tactical know how of a pathfinder player. Still find themselves struggling where as a deoptimizred build in the hands of a player that actually understands the need to focus on disrupting the enemy tactics, will crush even hard level encounters with ease

[Kurald Galain]

And there are fifth member classes. Bard for example is the archtypical 5th member class
Bards are a leader class, and a very good one at that. It is absolutely not weak at doing "leader stuff", and frankly I have no idea what you're basing that on.


Also I have to disagree. 4e is is about tactics more then builds,
So you're disagreeing with what now, with the writer of this build guide on how to build vampires?

[Verbannon]

Bards are a leader class, and a very good one at that. It is absolutely not weak at doing "leader stuff", and frankly I have no idea what you're basing that on.


So you're disagreeing with what now, with the writer of this build guide on how to build vampires?

Their leader at wills in the two core books are misdirected mark and war song strike. Misdirected mark situationally enables the defender to defend better. And war song strike only grants the tmp hp if an ally hits, instead of granting it directly to an ally like similar powers other leaders have. No, on the merits of being a leader alone, bard falls short of cleric, warlord and the others. But its not leader abilities are good enough that few people even notice. Optimizers love bards even though bards are the worst for their role, because bards are so versatile they are ludricrously easy to optimize for anything. And then the optimizers get to pat themselves on the back thinking how clever they are for building a bard optimized to do whatever.

And yes, build guides are just little useless things made by people who dont really understand 4e.

[Kurald Galain]

Their leader at wills in the two core books are misdirected mark and war song strike.

So what? By level 7 (or level 3 if you're using themes) most classes rarely use their at-wills any more. So why are you judging a class by its at will abilities when he's got encounter and daily powers? Or did you mean that you're only playing level 1 and 2?

[Verbannon]

So what? By level 7 (or level 3 if you're using themes) most classes rarely use their at-wills any more. So why are you judging a class by its at will abilities when he's got encounter and daily powers? Or did you mean that you're only playing level 1 and 2?

Then you have a crappy DM if you are getting through encounters without exhausting your supply of encounter powers. Even at Paragon half of the attacks you make should be at-wills.

But even then they have two non leader encounter power options for every leader one.
Thats the opposite ratio of the power spread of the cleric for example.

So yeah you can build a solid healer, but thatvspread of options, the infinite multiclassing, all of it makes it pretty clear its meant to be a multirole class.

[Yakk]

At level 7 you have 3 encounter attack powers.

If you use one per round, for half of your rounds to be at-will you need 6 round combats.

Assuming you have 1-2x as many foes as your have party members, and the foes are your level to your level+3, this means you go through (1 to 2) * (10 to 13)*(8 ish) = 80ish to 210ish HP of damage over those 6 rounds.

Dividing by 6 we get 13ish to 35ish damage per round.

An optimized non-striker might be dealing 2-3*(level+3) DPR, so 20-30 DPR at level 7. An optimized striker might be dealing 3-5*(level+3) DPR, so 30-50 DPR at level 7.

These numbers do not agree. Even worse if you add in theme powers (which ups your round count to 8!)

Now, it is often optimal to do a standard-action at-will augmented with a minor action encounter and an immediate encounter power to get 3+ taps instead of 1-2.

Fighting 8 round combats in 4e takes forever. If your DM is fluffing your encounters out until they are 8 rounds long you won't be doing many fights!

At paragon, you have 1 theme, 3 class and 1 paragon path encounter power, plus 3 dailies. If half of your turns consist of using at-wills only we are talking 10+ round combats on average. Just shoot me.

[MwaO]

At paragon, you have 1 theme, 3 class and 1 paragon path encounter power, plus 3 dailies. If half of your turns consist of using at-wills only we are talking 10+ round combats on average. Just shoot me.

Right. Combats ought to be 4-5 rounds. If they're going longer than that, it means both the monsters and the PCs aren't doing enough damage. And likely, there's a PC doing something they're not supposed to be doing.

Examples:
An unoptimized Vampire at 11th is kind of unkillable over the course of the day. And doesn't do enough damage. This is a problem actually with a lot of the Essentials Strikers once Paragon hits.

A Cleric who optimizes around not doing a lot of damage, but doing crazy amounts of healing. A group that has one of these wandering around might be disappointed in a Bard as a leader...

A lockdown Defender who doesn't do a lot of damage unless their mark gets violated and their mark never gets violated. The stereotypical 16 Str Dwarf who takes Come And Get It, but no other close burst powers in a party with no burst power attackers as an example.

An 'optimized' PC who took only non-standard action encounter powers while choosing an at-will to spam. But because combats are still going too long, something's still off and the PC isn't actually optimized for some reason.

[MwaO]

Their leader at wills in the two core books are misdirected mark and war song strike.

Functionally speaking, Guiding Strike, in PHB2, is +2 to hit for all PCs who happen to attack a particular defense until the EoNT. Not just the next attack as Righteous Brand, Lance of Faith, or Furious Smash. And it does damage unlike Astral Seal.

That's a really good buff unless you've got an odd party, as at least the Bard with Guiding Strike and the Defender ought to be typically attacking AC. Especially if you are using a lot of at-wills.

[masteraleph]

Also, let's not forget that "everything is core"- Staggering Note is a perfectly fine leader at will, though not at the level of the Shaman or Warlord's attack granting.

More to the point, you can optimize a Bard by taking a PHB2 paragon path- War Chanter- with virtually no other optimization. Feel free to add Sidhe Lord as a theme to make you a top tier leader. At high levels, feel free to poach other leaders' cool Encounter powers. There's nothing unoptimized about a Bard as a leader.

(Alternatively, for Bard as Leader/Controller, grab Resourceful Magician and take Wizard powers all over the place).

[Dimers]

Handy so far, some good basic ideas. I look forward to seeing how you color different options.

I realize that the Vampire Handbook should concentrate on actually using the class as written. But do you have any advice on what other base classes work well with vampire, either hybridized with it or MCing into it? Basically, what has to be true to make some Vampire pay off better than mostly Vampire or no Vampire?

I'm musing over a Con+Cha paladin|battlemind/vampire, using momentum swing and either ardent strike or virtuous strike to get two solid attacks in most rounds, either of which could trigger blood drinker. Augmented momentum swing and paladin immediates could also pick up extra surges from Psionic Vampire and Divine Vampire feats ... there's even a couple Channel powers that could trigger Divine Vampire without taking up a standard action.

[MwaO]

Handy so far, some good basic ideas. I look forward to seeing how you color different options.

I realize that the Vampire Handbook should concentrate on actually using the class as written. But do you have any advice on what other base classes work well with vampire, either hybridized with it or MCing into it? Basically, what has to be true to make some Vampire pay off better than mostly Vampire or no Vampire?

I'm musing over a Con+Cha paladin|battlemind/vampire, using momentum swing and either ardent strike or virtuous strike to get two solid attacks in most rounds, either of which could trigger blood drinker. Augmented momentum swing and paladin immediates could also pick up extra surges from Psionic Vampire and Divine Vampire feats ... there's even a couple Channel powers that could trigger Divine Vampire without taking up a standard action.

Thanks!

I think that gets extremely expensive - because MCing from Battlemind to get Blood Drinker means losing a lot of power points. And you can't get Blood Drinker until a minimum of 7th because you have to have at least one of each hybrid class.

The three step role handbook (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468787-Three-Step-Role-Handbook(by-MwaO)) has the basic idea - pick a role that you'd like to be good at. Step into that role via taking those three steps. Want to be a good Vampire Leader? MC Warlord with Resourceful Leader, power swap for Vengeance is Mine, power swap for Rousing Words, and then go Freedom Fighter. At 17th, swap Vengeance is Mine for Death from Two Sides. Done.

Here would be an unusual one:
Cleric - be Dex/Wis. Power Swap for Cause Fear. Go Messenger of Peace. Then Power Swap for Cloak of Courage at 16th. Drop some control on round 1 with a big bonus to hit, then switch over to smacking targets with an MBA. At 15th, retrain the level 9 daily into the level 1 daily so as to only have Dex-based dailies or spend a feat to pick up a Cleric one.

If you look at the 'standard' Vampire option I just put up there, it is possible to get up to 157 damage in 2 rounds with a Vampire 13th who just swapped essentially for Low Slash instead of the dumb encounter power and assuming a non-tofu DM. Sure, there's probably a miss in there(though Human can make that potentially unlikely), but 157 damage is perfectly respectable. But that set of damage options ought to work most of the time for everyone.

[Dimers]

I think that gets extremely expensive - because MCing from Battlemind to get Blood Drinker means losing a lot of power points. And you can't get Blood Drinker until a minimum of 7th because you have to have at least one of each hybrid class.

Mmm, that's right, I had solved that with a dirty trick using one specific build. Forgot that it was such a pain once I'd worked my way around it. The dirty trick is using half-elf Dilettante to get "an encounter attack power that has a level", and swapping that for blood drinker.

Technically you can get blood drinker earlier on a hybrid (nonvampire|nonvampire) build -- you're just not allowed to take a second encounter attack from Class A until you have one from Class B. If you have a theme with decent attacks, for example, you can sub those in. A hair-splitting point that's usually irrelevant, but with vampire encounter attacks being fairly underwhelming, it might occasionally be a solution.

[Dimers]

Here's a tidbit that might raise the value of human, half-elf, mul or revenant human. The feat Sunspray Heritage can turn your radiant vulnerability into a bonus once per combat, and it works fine against fire attacks too (much more common).

[masteraleph]

I was actually thinking that on a pure vampire, one of the themes with a lot of encounter powers- Iron Wolf Warrior for charging, say, or Templar for control/leading could be an interesting choice.

[MwaO]

Here's a tidbit that might raise the value of human, half-elf, mul or revenant human. The feat Sunspray Heritage can turn your radiant vulnerability into a bonus once per combat, and it works fine against fire attacks too (much more common).

Seems decent. Probably weak Black. Vampires, except at very low levels, don't need to be tougher unless they're in a 1 combat per day game.


I was actually thinking that on a pure vampire, one of the themes with a lot of encounter powers- Iron Wolf Warrior for charging, say, or Templar for control/leading could be an interesting choice.

Vampires only have 1 encounter power to swap out. That's better than most Essentials Strikers, but that doesn't give a lot of value to themes that mostly give encounter power options...

Iron Wolf Warrior isn't bad, though...

[MwaO]

Kind of just to spell out Vampire Toughness:
Suppose as an example, you're in a really rough combat. You get knocked unconscious, healed, then knocked unconscious again, then healed back to consciousness.

As it turns out, you're in a hurry, so there's only time for one short rest and the leader of the party needs to preserve their heals for the next combat. So you're now reliant to heal thyself.

-----

That scenario often happens to the striker of a party. Let's pretend this happens to a Rogue - he was healed twice in the combat and is probably near 1/4 hp. So to heal to full, he needs to spend 3 more surges for a total of 5. That means he has 2 surges for the rest of the day if he had a 12 Con or he's going into the next combat down hit points with 3 surges. Total Party Surge cost? 5.

Vampire at say 7th? That regeneration in combat maybe means he doesn't go unconscious, but let's say he does anyway. He regenerates to just a hair above bloodied. He uses the two surges he gained from Blood Drinker to keep himself at full surges. He takes a healing surge from someone else in the party and heals all the way to full. At 11th with Vampire Noble, he doesn't even need the one from the party. Total Party Surge cost? 1 or 0.

In that one combat, the Vampire managed to effectively gain +4 surges. That's almost a worst case scenario for any striker - in other words, to really truly take down the Vampire for the day, you have to either kill it dead, wipe the party for the day, or have the Vampire in a scenario where the players are too squeamish for him to drain surges, yet have enough healing to heal him more times than he gains surges.

And that's where the Vampire reputation for being fragile comes from - levels 1-6, the Vampire generates less surges than the Leader has heals while potentially being in a party where he can't ask for an extra healing surge...even though if he gets the healing surge, that's a fantastic use of party resources as it meant the DM spent a lot of effort to knock down the party a total of 2 surges for all the damage inflicted on the Vampire...

[Dimers]

In conjunction with the GNS discussion in the main forum, that reminds me ... we're all treating the vampire class as a collection of unflavored game components, as appropriate for a 4e discussion about builds rather than characters. But the people you play with might not treat it the same way. They might be disinclined to give you that surge to take you from half HP to full, just from the description or the traditional view of how one should treat something called a Vampire. I don't know whether that deserves a mention in a build handbook.

[Kurald Galain]

In conjunction with the GNS discussion in the main forum, that reminds me ... we're all treating the vampire class as a collection of unflavored game components, as appropriate for a 4e discussion about builds rather than characters. But the people you play with might not treat it the same way. They might be disinclined to give you that surge to take you from half HP to full, just from the description or the traditional view of how one should treat something called a Vampire.

Yes, same principle as the pre-4E paladin. Quite a lot of players don't take kindly to a class that requires its teammates to act in a particular way.

[MwaO]

Yes, same principle as the pre-4E paladin. Quite a lot of players don't take kindly to a class that requires its teammates to act in a particular way.

Not really a requirement once you get +3 surges per combat - 11th by default. Which is potentially one of the reasons that the Elf Vampire Fighter is so interesting(and I should edit...) is that if they get Martial Vampire at 2nd, they suddenly get to +3 surges per combat at 4th. Which eliminates most of the problems with party management.

[Sol]

Two non-sequiturs @MWAO:

On your 3-step guide, the link on the striker post to your When Everyone is Super guide still points to the wotc forums. Correct link is in your guide index (also here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?472017-When-Everyone-is-Super-a-Miniguide-to-Classless-Damage-Boosts-by-Svenj&prefixid=wotc))
Surprised/happy to see you call out pacifist cleric options. One of my favorite builds in recent memory was a Pacifist who poached Charm Beast, which is a valid extend EONT option with the U12. I'd love to see a mini-guide, or just a thread like this, discussing ways in which pacifism can be a viable choice rather than a colossal liability. Focusing on the healing is completely wasteful, but they can make truly painful single-target controllers -- at which point the question becomes, does single target control make up for their lack of damage? What about when you add in vulnerability granting and causing enemies to provoke OAs?


This conversation has absolutely made me a little less vampire-phobic -- the only actual-table vamp i've seen was....not good. I've eyed the MC feats a few times, but have never taken the plunge.

[MwaO]

at which point the question becomes, does single target control make up for their lack of damage? What about when you add in vulnerability granting and causing enemies to provoke OAs?

Generally no. What that does is extend the combat unless the party's basically built around your ability to generate vulnerability via multi-attacking. It isn't straight up as bad, but optimization that relies heavily on party structure not a good idea for general play.


This conversation has absolutely made me a little less vampire-phobic -- the only actual-table vamp i've seen was....not good. I've eyed the MC feats a few times, but have never taken the plunge.

I think one of the large problems that Vampires have is the Special Snowflake problem. Who like Monks, Bards, Hybrids, and Vampires for reasons completely independent of mechanics. They're the Monk who refuses to hold an item in hand, the Bard looking for a chandelier to swing from, the Hybrid who picks two classes that don't have an AC and then doesn't fix AC, or the Vampire who manages to combine a few of those problems and then on top it, act creepy as all get out.

And on top of it, they're relatively boring in actual play, even when you pull the tricks I do. So optimizers usually avoid playing them.

i.e. a class with creepy, no optimizers, and lots of inept players = class itself must be bad...

[Tegu8788]

The Vampire is certainly a challenging case. All the Shadow classes are weak, but in my experience make for great hybrids and MCs. I love to snag a Binder MC, the Blackguard hybrid works great because it has free range to pick real Paladin powers, and I love putting the Warlock or Avenger together with an Executioner. And the Vampire. I love it on an existing hybrid, because the "Source" Vampire feats are real fun. So why not get more than one. I've got a Barbarian|Sorcerer/Vampire that's fun.

[MeeposFire]

Lol I consider he binder to be the lone true failure of a class in 4e. All the rest might be weaker than most but are at least usable, thematic, and/or unique in their own way. The binder unlike all others has no special niche because a controller is mostly based off of powers and a standard warlock can take his powers as their own. There just isn't really much of a reason to play specifically as a binder over any other warlock. Compare that to the vampire where at least it is thematic and unique.

It is also the best overall vampire that a PC could play in the game yet. Pre 3e they were too strong to use and in 3e due to LA they were too weak. The 4e one is playable right now and if your DM was willing to tweak it you could have a fun and effective character to use.

[Sol]

Generally no. What that does is extend the combat unless the party's basically built around your ability to generate vulnerability via multi-attacking. It isn't straight up as bad, but optimization that relies heavily on party structure not a good idea for general play.

Hm. But you think that power-swapping for a pacifist power and taking the pacifist paragon path is potentially worthwhile on a striker?

Why would that be less bad?

[MwaO]

Hm. But you think that power-swapping for a pacifist power and taking the pacifist paragon path is potentially worthwhile on a striker?

He's a nova controller who happens to be a striker. It isn't as good as some of the options, but...

[The Ship's dog]

So I've been thinking about playing a Vampire for a long time and so I've been looking into various guides for help (and I have to say this has pointed my attention to various good options that others haven't).

I'm going to give my starting stats race theme etc. but also the feat progression that I've worked out and I would like anyone and everyone to comment and tell me where I've messed up. I haven't worked out where I would like to go with Epic tier but whatever for now.

Race: Drow
Darkfire racial ability
+2 to Dexterity and +2 Charisma
Class: Vampire (duh)
Theme: Ghost of the past (extra language Deep Speech)
So this is for my lore explanation and background of the character so if you only want to see the mechanical stuff then move along, otherwise, read this!

So the character was a Sorceress emissary of a Drow city made of a community of the species that worship Eilistraee and fled to the surface to escape the armies of Lolth. My character was the emissary for 68 years until some Drow from the Underdark captured her to torture her for the location of the city.

After they realised that she would give them nothing, they forcefully turned her into a Vampire as a cruelly ironic joke (because she likes the sun so much 'ha ha') and left her to rot in the prison cells of the small settlement on the crust of the Underdark that they dragged her to.

She stayed there for 613 years surviving meagrely on subterranean mammals and insects that she was fed and eventually had to lure into her cell when no one bothered to feed her anymore. During this time she almost completely lost all of her knowledge of Sorcerer magic.

In the last week that she was there, a great earthquake decimated the settlement, killing most of the population and wounding the rest. Miraculously, my character wasn't killed but badly wounded; which is when her Vampire abilities came in use. She completely lost herself and massacred the 20 odd survivors of the earthquake. ripping the cloak and heavy clothes she has from the corpses of her wardens she collected her now cracked amulet of the Dark Dancer (which serves as her Ki-focus) before escaping to the surface. After returning, she couldn't remember where her city was as she was captured in foreign lands and over 600 years prior.


Pre racial stats
Str: 12
Con: 8
Dex: 18
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 16

Vampire surges aren't affected by Constitution modifier so a -1 will not make me have only 1 surge at level 1.

Level: Feat:
1 Unarmoured agility
2 Ki foc. expertise
(retrain to Holy symbol when Crusaders mace acquired (need to be pre 11)
4 Implement focus (Ki focus)(see above for retrain)
6 Cunning stalker
8 Arcane prodigy (Sorcerer multiclass)
10 Novice power (retrain Feral assault to flame spiral)
11 Superior Will/Reflex (Demonskin adept paragon path)
(whichever is more appropriate at the time)
12 Staff expertise (by now should have gotten a staff)
14 Silvery glow
16 Fiery blood
18 Thunders boom
20 Durable
21 Versatile expertise
(Holy symbol and Staff (because technically Staves count as weapons))

I was thinking of going into Epic Fortitude and Blood thirst but I'm not sure. I'm also very unsure of Epic Destinies and would like some advice. At level 17 I was also thinking of swapping out Unleashed fury for Thunder summons from the Sorcerer spell list because then I would have an attack popwer that deals damage and also targets Will; I also think that the effect of the power would be fun.

[MwaO]

So I've been thinking about playing a Vampire for a long time and so I've been looking into various guides for help (and I have to say this has pointed my attention to various good options that others haven't).

I'm going to give my starting stats race theme etc. but also the feat progression that I've worked out and I would like anyone and everyone to comment and tell me where I've messed up. I haven't worked out where I would like to go with Epic tier but whatever for now.

Race: Drow
Darkfire racial ability
+2 to Dexterity and +2 Charisma
Class: Vampire (duh)
Theme: Ghost of the past (extra language Deep Speech)
So this is for my lore explanation and background of the character so if you only want to see the mechanical stuff then move along, otherwise, read this!

So the character was a Sorceress emissary of a Drow city made of a community of the species that worship Eilistraee and fled to the surface to escape the armies of Lolth. My character was the emissary for 68 years until some Drow from the Underdark captured her to torture her for the location of the city.

After they realised that she would give them nothing, they forcefully turned her into a Vampire as a cruelly ironic joke (because she likes the sun so much 'ha ha') and left her to rot in the prison cells of the small settlement on the crust of the Underdark that they dragged her to.

She stayed there for 613 years surviving meagrely on subterranean mammals and insects that she was fed and eventually had to lure into her cell when no one bothered to feed her anymore. During this time she almost completely lost all of her knowledge of Sorcerer magic.

In the last week that she was there, a great earthquake decimated the settlement, killing most of the population and wounding the rest. Miraculously, my character wasn't killed but badly wounded; which is when her Vampire abilities came in use. She completely lost herself and massacred the 20 odd survivors of the earthquake. ripping the cloak and heavy clothes she has from the corpses of her wardens she collected her now cracked amulet of the Dark Dancer (which serves as her Ki-focus) before escaping to the surface. After returning, she couldn't remember where her city was as she was captured in foreign lands and over 600 years prior.


Pre racial stats
Str: 12
Con: 8
Dex: 18
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 16

Vampire surges aren't affected by Constitution modifier so a -1 will not make me have only 1 surge at level 1.

Level: Feat:
1 Unarmoured agility
2 Ki foc. expertise
(retrain to Holy symbol when Crusaders mace acquired (need to be pre 11)
4 Implement focus (Ki focus)(see above for retrain)
6 Cunning stalker
8 Arcane prodigy (Sorcerer multiclass)
10 Novice power (retrain Feral assault to flame spiral)
11 Superior Will/Reflex (Demonskin adept paragon path)
(whichever is more appropriate at the time)
12 Staff expertise (by now should have gotten a staff)
14 Silvery glow
16 Fiery blood
18 Thunders boom
20 Durable
21 Versatile expertise
(Holy symbol and Staff (because technically Staves count as weapons))

I was thinking of going into Epic Fortitude and Blood thirst but I'm not sure. I'm also very unsure of Epic Destinies and would like some advice. At level 17 I was also thinking of swapping out Unleashed fury for Thunder summons from the Sorcerer spell list because then I would have an attack popwer that deals damage and also targets Will; I also think that the effect of the power would be fun.

First off, I'd look at Firegoat (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471663-Firegoat-The-Satyr-Serial-Sorcerer-1-30-by-Cazzeo) - that might give you a much better idea of what to do given what you're taking. Picking Drow over Satyr removes a couple of options(Sarifal Feywarden), but it isn't the end of the world.

I also made a Vampire Sorcerer build from levels 1-13 based on it in the handbook. Satyr's much better than Drow for it, but triple taps are triple taps.

Anyway, quick comments about your build:
Your point array is off - you should end up with a 20 Dex/16 Cha and an 11 somewhere else. Probably Strength.

Too many Expertise feats - pick one and stick with it. Then get Superior Implement for an additional +1 to hit. Don't need Durable, especially at that point.

I'd move up Arcane Prodigy/Novice Power such that you get Flame Spiral at 4th level. This will make a huge deal in Heroic.

[Sol]

@ship's dog - also too many typed damage specific feats, IMO.

Sometimes this can be unavoidable, if you can't focus your power selection on a particular element or if you can't re-type your damage to all be one type -- but it's in general both easier and more effective to pick just one type to focus on, and only spread to other types if you can consistently deal multi-typed damage of both of those types.

Even then, if you were dealing fire and thunder and radiant damage with a given power, you'd only benefit from the greater of your various feat bonuses to damage. The secondary "something happens when you're hit with this damage type too!" effects of the HoEC feats are pretty cool, but usually only worth a feat slot if you're getting hit with those damage types very reliably (google the generator bladesinger build, for instance).

If you're going to be dealing varied damage, I might just default back to plain old focus, and then look for other feats that also boost damage conditionally by more than the typed ones. Those are, of course, limited, so you may wind up back with a typed feat. If you stay with a crusader mace, radiant will always work, so you can use that over focus. If you go staff...you are free to take radiant, flaming, frost, or lightning weapon enchants to type all of your powers AND still take superior implement proficiency accurate staff.

If you really want to stick with Drow, you could consider an Accurate Mordant Dagger along with drow poison optimizations. Adding acid makes the poison keyword suck less, and for some DM readings may completely remove the otherwise crippling downsides of that keyword. But if you want to go that route talk with your DM, because if adding another damage keyword doesn't mean undead and constructs are no longer immune to all of the effects of your poison keyworded powers, that's a horrible, horrible idea.

[masteraleph]

If you really want to stick with Drow, you could consider an Accurate Mordant Dagger along with drow poison optimizations. Adding acid makes the poison keyword suck less, and for some DM readings may completely remove the otherwise crippling downsides of that keyword. But if you want to go that route talk with your DM, because if adding another damage keyword doesn't mean undead and constructs are no longer immune to all of the effects of your poison keyworded powers, that's a horrible, horrible idea.

Doesn't really work with a Vampire. You need Assassin for the feat to ignore poison immunity, and Skulker of Vhaeraun only works with Weapon attacks, which Vampire attacks (and most sorcerer ones) are not.

[The Ship's dog]

Thanks for all of your advice, they were very helpful! I will be back with a revised build later. Also I'd like to say the I'm still pretty new to any kind of D&D (started with 4e 3 months ago) and so I'm still very lacking in the knowledge nessecary for making an optimised build.

[Ulhyth]

As a player of a low-level non-hybrid, multiclass Vampire (going by the rules in Dragon #400), I've found it goes roughly like this.

- First level is spent avoiding damage at all costs because you have a third to a half of the maximum healing surges you should, and can't regenerate any because your only feat is Vampirism.
- Second level is spent praying that your level 1 encounter power hits every time, so that your [Power Source] Vampire feat keeps both your HP and surges topped up without issue.
- Third level is spent being thankful that you now have two encounter powers and can now consistently score that 1/encounter healing surge. Hope you never need Second Wind though.
- Fourth level will be spent cursing because you didn't hybrid with another power source to get a second [Power Source] Vampire feat - if you wouldn't need Hybrid Talent instead, anyway.

You could take the Blood Thirst feat to get a use of Blood Drinker, but Blood Drinker as written in Heroes of Shadow only triggers when you hit with a Vampire At-Will attack power, which you don't have (because that's not how multiclassing works, you're not at Paragon tier, and Paragon multiclassing is considered a terrible option anyway). And yes, if your party oblige, you can mostly ignore these holes in the multiclass vampire's healing surge economy. But at first level where you're at your most crippled, these are characters you've pretty much just met, so don't expect them to sign up for intimate blood donations repressed-Victorian style.

Having also observed a full-class Vampire character, the first couple of levels seem a similar struggle for self-sufficiency given the limited uses of Blood Drinker. The character's options are similar too: befriend the other PCs *very* quickly, so that emergency healing surges are always available... or brood in a corner, abscond with most of the magic items the party encounter, and incriminate a party member to various members of the local Vampire aristocracy. And then skulk at the back of every combat wondering why the other PCs, who do in fact know about most of that, are unwilling to subsidise the Vampire's continued existence.

[MwaO]

As a player of a low-level non-hybrid, multiclass Vampire (going by the rules in Dragon #400), I've found it goes roughly like this.

- First level is spent avoiding damage at all costs because you have a third to a half of the maximum healing surges you should, and can't regenerate any because your only feat is Vampirism.
- Second level is spent praying that your level 1 encounter power hits every time, so that your [Power Source] Vampire feat keeps both your HP and surges topped up without issue.
- Third level is spent being thankful that you now have two encounter powers and can now consistently score that 1/encounter healing surge. Hope you never need Second Wind though.
- Fourth level will be spent cursing because you didn't hybrid with another power source to get a second [Power Source] Vampire feat - if you wouldn't need Hybrid Talent instead, anyway.

Unless something weird is going on, you shouldn't need a second Vampire feat. Basically, if you don't get knocked unconscious, don't get healed in the combat and get your one surge, you heal to full by default.

Those are the combats that cost typical PCs around 2 surges and they happen often. And they're more likely for Vampires due to Regeneration. If you're the PC getting pounded and picked on, then yes, you'll use up more surges. But so would basically any PC in the same scenario. And those are the scenarios where if the players give the Vampire a bonus surge, it just wrecked the resource drain of the adventure.