Would rich people reincarnate as longer lived races?

[Douche]

You are a human noble. Your riches are beyond reckoning... But you are getting old. You're in the twilight of your life, at age 70 or so, and will die soon.

But, you could always hire a druid to perform a travesty to the natural order! You simply have someone kill you, and then reincarnate, hoping that you come back as an elf. Then you're hardly even outside of your "teenage" years! You're back in the prime of your life. If you don't get what you were hoping for, then you make someone execute you again & again until you get your desired race.

Why aren't all nobles doing this?

[Sigreid]

You are a human noble. Your riches are beyond reckoning... But you are getting old. You're in the twilight of your life, at age 70 or so, and will die soon.

But, you could always hire a druid to perform a travesty to the natural order! You simply have someone kill you, and then reincarnate, hoping that you come back as an elf. Then you're hardly even outside of your "teenage" years! You're back in the prime of your life. If you don't get what you were hoping for, then you make someone execute you again & again until you get your desired race.

Why aren't all nobles doing this?

I think I'd rather pay a wizard to clone me back to 20 year old me.

[Sicarius Victis]

Good luck finding a Druid who will deliberately work against the laws of nature like that.

[Erys]

Also, D&D has confirmed afterlife heaven/hell cosmology.

Most who want to fight the mortal coil are selfish to evil; and they tend to go a more permanent route via becoming undead. When the big fire below beckons, do you want a few hundred extra years, or potentially unlimited? (Sans some early adventurer induced death, of course).

[eastmabl]

You are a human noble. Your riches are beyond reckoning... But you are getting old. You're in the twilight of your life, at age 70 or so, and will die soon.

But, you could always hire a druid to perform a travesty to the natural order! You simply have someone kill you, and then reincarnate, hoping that you come back as an elf. Then you're hardly even outside of your "teenage" years! You're back in the prime of your life. If you don't get what you were hoping for, then you make someone execute you again & again until you get your desired race.

Why aren't all nobles doing this?

But then you have to be an elf.

[JellyPooga]

It's all fine and dandy until the Inevitables come a-calling for trying to pervert the laws of the Planes...

[Tanarii]

Why aren't all nobles doing this?Because you come back as a 476 year old elf, not a 70 year old.

Based on Elves and humans aging at the same rate to 20, Elves live to 750 and humans to 100:
(70-20)* (750-20)/(100-20) + 20 = 476.25

[Sigreid]

Also, D&D has confirmed afterlife heaven/hell cosmology.

Most who want to fight the mortal coil are selfish to evil; and they tend to go a more permanent route via becoming undead. When the big fire below beckons, do you want a few hundred extra years, or potentially unlimited? (Sans some early adventurer induced death, of course).

I've played wizards looking for their way out of the life-death cycle. Because of my bias they've all come to the inescapable conclusion that undead is still dead. You loose a lot becoming a lich.

[Occasional Sage]

Because any Lawful or Neutral monarchy must* have inviolable laws against such a thing (and Chaotic monarchies likely have them also, though they may not be well enforced). Resurrection, reincarnation, cloning, and undeath immediately remove you from any rank and/or position in the line of succession. Otherwise, you're guaranteed succession shenanigans and civil war.

*note that this only works until somebody violates this law and has the power to flout the law

[Nishant]

Because any Lawful or Neutral monarchy must* have inviolable laws against such a thing (and Chaotic monarchies likely have them also, though they may not be well enforced). Resurrection, reincarnation, cloning, and undeath immediately remove you from any rank and/or position in the line of succession. Otherwise, you're guaranteed succession shenanigans and civil war.

*note that this only works until somebody violates this law and has the power to flout the law

Taking a page from the Fate series, doing those shenanigans and re-inserting yourself into power with each few generations sounds clever, and could make for an interesting story arch.

[bulbaquil]

You are a human noble. Your riches are beyond reckoning... But you are getting old. You're in the twilight of your life, at age 70 or so, and will die soon.

But, you could always hire a druid to perform a travesty to the natural order! You simply have someone kill you, and then reincarnate, hoping that you come back as an elf. Then you're hardly even outside of your "teenage" years! You're back in the prime of your life. If you don't get what you were hoping for, then you make someone execute you again & again until you get your desired race.

Why aren't all nobles doing this?

Druid: "I have no use for your coin, human. Stop having your hirelings cut down saplings in this forest; then we can negotiate. And no, I don't care that some map somewhere proclaims this to be 'your' forest."

[Âmesang]

I believe Ivid V of Aerdy attempted the undead route in WORLD OF GREYHAWK®, as well as doing the same to his chief advisers, generals, &c.

Whole thing eventually went south fast. I think the former capital of Aerdy, Rauxes, is still engulfed in some near-impenetrable energy field.


⁂

I've contemplated going the reincarnation/last breath route for a 3rd Edition character, but the intent was a self-variation with contingency (via Use Magic Device or, perhaps, limited wish) augmented with wish (so as to effectively revert to a young adult version of the caster's self instead of as a random creature).

(Although I suppose an appropriately worded wish would be more than enough.)

[Sicarius Victis]

Because you come back as a 476 year old elf, not a 70 year old.

Based on Elves and humans aging at the same rate to 20, Elves live to 750 and humans to 100:
(70-20)* (750-20)/(100-20) + 20 = 476.25

Operating on the assumption that Elves live to 750 years old, that still leaves the noble with about 260 years left, or so. And a human's perception of time, leaving that to be a lot more time for them than it would be for an elf anyways.

[Arkhios]

If you were reincarnated, how could you prove you have a legitimate claim to your riches - to the people who didn't see the reincarnation to happen firsthand (which I'd assume would be many)?

[Tanarii]

Operating on the assumption that Elves live to 750 years old, that still leaves the noble with about 260 years left, or so. And a human's perception of time, leaving that to be a lot more time for them than it would be for an elf anyways.Yes. But it's 260 years in the elf-body equivalent of a 70+ year old, vs 30 in a 70+ year old human body. Not saying that's not awesome to someone of that age. But it's significantly different from suddenly finding yourself as a 70 year old elf-body, which is the equivalent of a 25 year old human body.

[SillyPopeNachos]

Nobles typically don't do this due to Druids being mostly uninterested in what they have to offer. Most interested in extending life without undeath seek the Forever Stone, the Fountain of Youth, etc.

[Biggstick]

I'm pretty sure it'd be easier to get a Wizard (or a Bard with their magical secrets) to utilize the Clone spell for an older Noble. These types of casters might be much more willing to perform such a feat of magic for a hefty amount of coin (or something of value, lordship, land, etc)

Let's go over the Clone spell real quick, just to really point out how much better a Noble might feel about going with this sure thing, as compared to the randomness of the Reincarnate spell.

This spell grows an inert duplicate of a living creature as a safeguard against death. This clone forms inside a sealed vessel and grows to full size and maturity after 120 days; you can choose to have the clone be a YOUNGER version of the same creature. It remains inert and endures indefinitely, as long as its vessel remains undisturbed.

At any time after the clone matures, if the original creature dies, its soul transfers to the clone, provided that the soul is free and willing to return. The clone is physically identical to the original and has the same personality, memories, and abilities, but none of the original's equipment. The original creature's physical remains if they still exist, become inert and can't thereafter be restored to life, since the creature's soul is elsewhere.

I've bolded parts I thought important. If the Noble wishes to live longer, they probably want a younger body. Most people wish they could go back to a younger version of themselves and have the knowledge they now have, and this is also preserved in the wording of the Clone spell. The only potential problem I see with the spell is that it says you can choose to have the clone be a younger version of the creature, but it also says that the clone is physically identical to the original. Is it the original at time of death or original at younger version age? This would be the only thing I'd talk to a DM about, and I think they'd go with the intent of allowing the Clone to be physically identical to what the younger version's body was like.

Overall, I think wealthy Nobles should be seeking out Wizards (and the occasional Bard) if they're trying to extend their life span.

[smcmike]

In addition to the above, another potential problem: however much you've paid that Druid, you'd better be sure your heir didn't pay him more.

Also, now I'm imagining a reincarnation scam-artist, who goes around claiming to be the reincarnation of various recently-deceased wealthy people.

[ZX6Rob]

If you were reincarnated, how could you prove you have a legitimate claim to your riches - to the people who didn't see the reincarnation to happen firsthand (which I'd assume would be many)?

This was the first thing I thought of, too. How would you be able to prove your identity in your new guise?

There's that Russian fellow who's on the docket for an actual full-body transplant (or a head transplant, I guess it's all in how you look at it), and there's already plenty of discussion on how his identity will be maintained if he has a whole different body.

[JackPhoenix]

snip

That, of course, assumes that there are level 15+ spellcasters who care about anything a noble can offer them and haven't got anything better to do with their time and spell slots. Which is not true in many settings. These are people who deal with the matters concerning whole continents. Even Eberron with its widely available magic have about 2 wizards that powerful on the whole continent. Both of which are evil, and at least one is insane. The other one is 2700 year old lich.

Making a deal with a devil or convincing a vampire to bite you sounds easier.

[Sigreid]

Making a deal with a devil or convincing a vampire to bite you sounds easier.

Easier perhaps, but neither overcomes the issue that you are both dead, and damned. I think it's a bad trade for any rational person, but irrational people are a dime a dozen.

[Zorku]

Because you come back as a 476 year old elf, not a 70 year old.

Based on Elves and humans aging at the same rate to 20, Elves live to 750 and humans to 100:
(70-20)* (750-20)/(100-20) + 20 = 476.25
Woe is me, with merely two centuries added to my lifespan, how will I ever make back the cost of doing this?


If you were reincarnated, how could you prove you have a legitimate claim to your riches - to the people who didn't see the reincarnation to happen firsthand (which I'd assume would be many)?You just treat it like bizarre and convoluted inheritance. The person that presents a particular writ to your butler, speaks a particular secret phrase to the head maid of your manor, and knows the combination to your personal safe inherits it all. In addition to the quick but secret way for you to collect a copy of that writ there's also a second copy waiting with a mayor or similar civil servant in a town or small city on the other end of the country, in case something goes wrong and you need your normal heirs to inherit it as per usual.


Nobles typically don't do this due to Druids being mostly uninterested in what they have to offer. Most interested in extending life without undeath seek the Forever Stone, the Fountain of Youth, etc.That's why you do what every rich person does: pay somebody else to arrange for this.

Anyway, you've got a 21% chance of rolling elf, and a 17% chance of rolling dwarf, and 10% of rolling a gnome, any of which is probably still acceptable when you're in a human mindset and looking at another brush with death.
Halfling and Half Elf are a modest increase in lifespan, but nothing impressive, so unless there's some more convoluted plan that just needs a few decades to pull off, these probably aren't a settling point.
Human, Dragonborn, Tiefling, and Half Orc are all no gain or outright lifespan loss.

48% is decent odds in general, but not so high that you're going to expect it to definitely work on the first go. 27% of rich old bastards can't get a good result with two reincarnations, and if they all try for a third 14% of the total are still having just the worst day of their now multiple lives. 7.3% fail 4 rounds in, and 4% still can't cash out after 5 castings. (So written differently, 3.3% hit a long lived form on reincarnation #5, 6.7% succeed on #4, 13% on #3, 21% on #2, and 48% on the first go.)

So if you're going to try this you need a druid that will just do this over and over for you, or more likely, you need to line up at least three different druids that your underlings can talk into giving this just one shot, for whatever good cause they can bluff their way through. Finding that many gullible druids with 5th level spells within a few days of each other is going to be marginally difficult in most campaign settings, but if you can stomach a few days holed up in a carriage as a half orc then you can travel much further before your servants off you and proceed to beseech the next forest rube to reincarnate you.

Tedious, but in some settings probably still easier and cheaper to arrange than finding somebody with 8th level necromancy spells that's willing to cast them for you. I could see some nobles going through this trouble, but craftier ones are probably going to be able to acquire or well enough coerce the production of a few scrolls of reincarnation, then just get some other class to cast them.

(I'm kind of confused about that though. It seems that there are scrolls that can only be read by the same class, but also scrolls that can be read by anybody? I couldn't seem to disentangle how you tell those apart last time I looked.)

[Arkhios]

This was the first thing I thought of, too. How would you be able to prove your identity in your new guise?

There's that Russian fellow who's on the docket for an actual full-body transplant (or a head transplant, I guess it's all in how you look at it), and there's already plenty of discussion on how his identity will be maintained if he has a whole different body.
I guess if you had made a will to hand over all your possessions to whatever person you look like now, possibly even taking a new name if it made sense for your new race. But then again, if a piece of paper could do that, anyone with good forgery could claim it after the original owner had mysteriously disappeared (=reincarnated).

If that wackjob surgery ends up succesful, I guess we'll have to re-introduce the Head of Vecna hoax, except that it would work this time :P

[Biggstick]

That, of course, assumes that there are level 15+ spellcasters who care about anything a noble can offer them and haven't got anything better to do with their time and spell slots. Which is not true in many settings. These are people who deal with the matters concerning whole continents. Even Eberron with its widely available magic have about 2 wizards that powerful on the whole continent. Both of which are evil, and at least one is insane. The other one is 2700 year old lich.

Making a deal with a devil or convincing a vampire to bite you sounds easier.

Why wouldn't a Noble have something a level 15+ spell caster desires? Just because the level 15+ spell caster can cast spells to take whatever they want (or to overcome any obstacle set in their path should they set their mind to something), this is now a Noble that "owes" the level 15+ spell caster. Earning these sorts of favors can be difficult, and having people already in a position of power without you yourself having to take care of everything that person has to take care of might be something the level 15+ spell caster is interested in.

Wizard: "So Reginald, I've been having issues near my tower again. It appears that Bugbears and their ilk have taken to set up residence nearby. Have someone take care of that problem for me. Oh, and have whoever you send out here bring me some of that Elven tea you always drink, I've begun to grow quite fond of it."

Reginald the Cloned Noble: "Of course Mr. Wizard. I'll get a group up there right away. How many crates of the Elven tea would you like brought up this time?"

Despite the fact that the Wizard or Bard doesn't need to care in the slightest about the Noble's problem of dying, it doesn't mean that they wouldn't be interested in the potential influence gained by having a Noble who owes them for the spell cast.

[Douche]

That, of course, assumes that there are level 15+ spellcasters who care about anything a noble can offer them and haven't got anything better to do with their time and spell slots. Which is not true in many settings. These are people who deal with the matters concerning whole continents. Even Eberron with its widely available magic have about 2 wizards that powerful on the whole continent. Both of which are evil, and at least one is insane. The other one is 2700 year old lich.

Making a deal with a devil or convincing a vampire to bite you sounds easier.

Which is why I thought it'd be better to use reincarnation. Then you only need a 9th level druid

Also, using Clone would be much less cost effective. You have to pay 3000 gold for one extra lifespan (70 years, lets say), versus Reincarnate potentially adding hundreds of years to your life for only 100 gp

[ZX6Rob]

Which is why I thought it'd be better to use reincarnation. Then you only need a 9th level druid

Also, using Clone would be much less cost effective. You have to pay 3000 gold for one extra lifespan (70 years, lets say), versus Reincarnate potentially adding hundreds of years to your life for only 100 gp

Sure, but if you're talking about potentially staving off death, a sure bet like clone may be the preferable choice. If you have a vast enough fortune to be considering something like this, it may be worth it over the chance that you'll be reincarnated as something less-favorable, especially if there may be social consequences for your new form.

A clone also makes it easier to claim your fortune, since you'll look the same, just younger. Easier to claim you've been rejuvenated by hidden and unknown magics, but that you're still, y'know, you. A younger version of yourself will probably have an easier time pulling off this deception than a half-orc or elf who kinda' looks like you in an elf-y or orc-y way.

I kind of assume that if we're talking about the sort of fortune that'd be considering this, 3,000 GP is as much a drop in the bucket as 100...

[Biggstick]

Sure, but if you're talking about potentially staving off death, a sure bet like clone may be the preferable choice. If you have a vast enough fortune to be considering something like this, it may be worth it over the chance that you'll be reincarnated as something less-favorable, especially if there may be social consequences for your new form.

A clone also makes it easier to claim your fortune, since you'll look the same, just younger. Easier to claim you've been rejuvenated by hidden and unknown magics, but that you're still, y'know, you. A younger version of yourself will probably have an easier time pulling off this deception than a half-orc or elf who kinda' looks like you in an elf-y or orc-y way.

I kind of assume that if we're talking about the sort of fortune that'd be considering this, 3,000 GP is as much a drop in the bucket as 100...

All of this lol. The person seeking out this sort of life extension probably cares about coming back as whatever race they are.

If they didn't care about the race they come back as, or are attempting to come back as a longer lived race, why aren't they considering more sure-fire solutions to extending their life? Lichdom and Vampirism both come to mind.

Definitely agreed with the 3000 GP to 100 GP part as well. If the wealthy npc is even considering this sort of tactic, they probably have tons of gold to utilize.

[JackPhoenix]

Which is why I thought it'd be better to use reincarnation. Then you only need a 9th level druid

Also, using Clone would be much less cost effective. You have to pay 3000 gold for one extra lifespan (70 years, lets say), versus Reincarnate potentially adding hundreds of years to your life for only 100 gp

Problem with Reincarnate is that you'll have to die first. Clone could be set up in advance and kept in your basement for decades, waiting until you eventually die, but for Reincarnate, you'll either have to hope the caster will get to your body in 10 days from your death, or you'll have to commit suicide in his presence and trust him he won't just take the money and then pretend he's you, reincarnated. Or that he can actually cast the spell and isn't just con artist, or that he's not hired by your enemies to help them to get rid of you. Also, it's 1000 gp, not 100.

Clone is much better spell overall, fitting, as it's level 8. You get killed in a battle far away, or your ship sinks in the middle of an ocean, or something similar? No worry, you'll wake up wherever you've set up your body. The actual cost is also only 1000 gp, the diamond is consumed, the container with the body isn't and can potentialy be reused. And if you're feeling paranoid, there's nothing preventing you from having multiple backup clones prepared, just in case, though the spell doesn't say what happens in that case.

In any case, that pleasant horned fellow in the corner is offering me immortality and eternal youth for a low, low price of one peasant sacrificed to Asmodeus once a year. What did peasants ever did for me, anyway? Gotta go to arrange the terms.

[Zorku]

All of this lol. The person seeking out this sort of life extension probably cares about coming back as whatever race they are.

If they didn't care about the race they come back as, or are attempting to come back as a longer lived race, why aren't they considering more sure-fire solutions to extending their life? Lichdom and Vampirism both come to mind.

Definitely agreed with the 3000 GP to 100 GP part as well. If the wealthy npc is even considering this sort of tactic, they probably have tons of gold to utilize.

Most of the time it's difficult to operate in high society as an undead abomination. Going from human to elf (or dwarf) offers some significant power gain in the social spheres, as your current contacts eventually come to recognize you as the same person but now the elite of an entire other race take you much more seriously. They probably won't be amused by your actual ancestry, but by the time they find that out you've already made a favorable first impression and you might even have some dirt on them already.

For the truly wealthy noble that is happy to clone themselves into youthful bodies, a quick round of reincarnation greatly reduces the frequency with which they must purchase a new backup clone, and offers the possibility of a body that is notably easier to live in during the twilight years that come before waking up in a fresh clone.

And for the less stoic personalities among them, what's more Epicurean than sampling a life or three as a new race every time the opportunity arises?

[ZX6Rob]

What's interesting is that I think we've all taken it as a given now that, sure, someone with the resources would have no issues pulling this kind of thing off. The real question is, how does that person go about it, and what are their reasons?

Oh, what if instead of reincarnate, you had a very powerful wizard polymorph you into a longer-lived race such as an elf? Does that give you the corresponding lifespan of the creature into which you've been turned? Can the wizard choose to change you from an old man to a young elf? If so, that's probably the most preferable option since, you know, you don't have to actually die first.

[JackPhoenix]

Oh, what if instead of reincarnate, you had a very powerful wizard polymorph you into a longer-lived race such as an elf? Does that give you the corresponding lifespan of the creature into which you've been turned? Can the wizard choose to change you from an old man to a young elf? If so, that's probably the most preferable option since, you know, you don't have to actually die first.

TP can do that... in theory. There's no generic "elf" stat block, so strictly by RAW, it's not valid form to take. Let's not go into the whole "are NPC stat blocks valid" argument. And you change the whole stat block, so the polymorphed person would lose whatever skills they possessed before. Only things that transfers are alignment and personality. And one good Dispel Magic would turn them back.

You know, thinking about implications of TP... that's now the origin of the elves in my setting. If you were able to polymorph someone into a creature you can imagine, not that necessarily exists... what if nobles some ancient civilisation turned themselves into a better form? Elves live longer than humans, have much keener senses, are more graceful and better looking according to some standards of beauty. There's no reason why the polymorphed characters couldn't breed true... bam, new species was born. Also explains how owlbears and all that **** came about without homebrewing ways for mad wizards to make them.

[Douche]

Ok so

Step One, get reincarnated until you get an elf (not sure where you guys got the idea that you need more than one druid).

Step Two, make a clone of the elf as a 50 year old.

Step Three, live out the rest of your elven days (still debatable whether you convert your lifetime into "elf years", I would've assumed you come back as an elf of the same age you are, not their equivalent)

Step Four, die of old age? Then your soul transfers to your clone. Enjoy the next 600-700 years.

Step 5, by this time you have lived like 20-30 human lifetimes. That should be enough time to reach level 20 monk. Now you have ceased to age.

[Âmesang]

One should also be able to port over kissed by the ages from 3rd Edition, a 9th-level spell that specifically halts the aging process… so long as the targeted magic item is worn (which loses its original properties).

[Anderlith]

What's interesting is that I think we've all taken it as a given now that, sure, someone with the resources would have no issues pulling this kind of thing off. The real question is, how does that person go about it, and what are their reasons?

The wizard is using the clones to mine moon rocks, that are sent to him using teleportation circles.

If you are a noble, why not just buy an item of wish. Wish for eternal life? (Properly phrased of course)

[Sigreid]

The wizard is using the clones to mine moon rocks, that are sent to him using teleportation circles.

If you are a noble, why not just buy an item of wish. Wish for eternal life? (Properly phrased of course)

Because you're familiar with Greek mythology and know that only winds up with you getting older and smaller until you turn into a grasshopper. If a god and goddess can't word it right, what chance does a mere mortal have?

[Anderlith]

Because you're familiar with Greek mythology and know that only winds up with you getting older and smaller until you turn into a grassh8opper. If a god and goddess can't word it right, what chance does a mere mortal have?

Rich fantasy people can still do the one thing that is more powerful than any magic, hire good lawyers.

[Kane0]

Base if off percentage rather than straight number of years?

Like if you were a 40 year old human with an expected lifespan of 80 you'd become an equivalent 200 year old elf out of 400 expected years. Or whatever.

Still a big increase in lifespan but you don't go from being an ageing human to a juvenile elf.

[Zorku]

Ok so
(not sure where you guys got the idea that you need more than one druid).
You can technically do it with one druid, but unless it's a PC it's gonna be really weird to find one that's willing to do this. The way I've been writing it was basically that you manage to trick the druid into thinking they're doing this for some righteous and spiritual blah blah blah

So the trouble is that you're probably not going to trick the same guy twice.


Step 5, by this time you have lived like 20-30 human lifetimes. That should be enough time to reach level 20 monk. Now you have ceased to age.
Better yet level 20 Druid. Now you can be the catalyst for every socialite you like gaining an elven lifespan and everone you secretly hated ending up as a tiefling, whoops, look at the phase of the moon and the astrological sign, we're gonna have to wait half a year before we can try this again. Have fun bro.


Base if off percentage rather than straight number of years?

Like if you were a 40 year old human with an expected lifespan of 80 you'd become an equivalent 200 year old elf out of 400 expected years. Or whatever.

Still a big increase in lifespan but you don't go from being an ageing human to a juvenile elf.

Looking over the spell entry it doesn't say anything about age, so we've been reading in djinn style wish corruption whichever way you shake it. Because it's not mentioned, because of the name of the spell, and because of the general limit that you're supposed to be playing adults, I'd actually assume that the spell creates a body that's pretty close to the minimum character age for whatever race you get.

Looking at the spell entry from other editions shows that it's always been supposed to "restore youth," so I doubt that it's explicitly not meant to in 5e. With the current wording, your rat bastard tendencies are free to ignore the intent, especially if some druid senses that something is off here and wants to just leave some wiggle room for nature to muck this up in whatever way is probably appropriate.

*There were both druid and wizard versions of this spell in the early days, but it became druid only in 3e. 3e also marked the point where you retained character level (minus 1) instead of rolling dice to see what you got. 4th edition is the only one to mention gender, and removes the racial roll altogether, instead just letting you roll up a new character of the level that you were.