Is it possible to get by without a rogue?

[SnugUndies]

Recently in a campaign I've been playing, our party has been pared down somewhat. It started as a Thri-kreen Warblade, a Warforged Cleric, a Human Wizard, a Gnome Dread Necromancer, a Tiefling Bard and a Human Rogue. Things were a little crowded, but it was nice having opportunity to slot in a bard and dread necromancer, since they aren't exactly role-fillers. Anyways, due to fracturing relationships outside of the game and convenient timing within the game, the bard and rogue have both left the campaign until further notice.

The part I'm a bit worried about is the departure of the rogue. She more-or-less had all of the skillpoints and without her nobody's going to be very good at sneaking, spotting, listening, searching, etc.... not to mention detecting and disabling traps. I know it's often said that a wizard can outperform all of a rogue's skills through the use of spells, but I dunno if one can have enough spells known/slots in a day to cover all of that in addition to the usual wizardly duties. Seeing as we're all level 5 or 6, are the cleric and wizard together going to be able to replace everything the rogue should do? What spells should we look at to cover the main tenets (searching, detection, bypassing traps/barriers, and so on)?

[icefractal]

It's possible. Of the things that you mention:
* Traps are not too much of a problem. You can usually set them off manually with summoned creatures, undead minions, or even Unseen Servant. The Summon Elemental reserve feat would be a good pick next time the Wizard or Cleric has a free feat, perhaps. Or if applicable, the Kobold domain gives you trapfinding.

* Stealth can be achieved other ways, such as Invisibility/Silence, turning into something tiny (easier for a Druid, but there is Polymorph), or the Dread Necromancer could acquire a stealthy minion (Whisper Gnome Ghoul, maybe? A zombie won't work because it needs to report back.) Or use other methods like Scrying / Prying Eyes to scout.

* Spotting and Listening are going to be a problem. If nobody has those, get prepared to be ambushed and spied on a lot. If the Cleric has very high Wisdom, then maybe a few ranks at the next level, plus some items to boost it, could bring things into a good range. Other than that, there are alternate sense like Mindsight (would require a level of Mindbender or some other Telepathy source), and Lifesight (for the DN, but it's shorter range). If rebuilding is allowed, having somebody acquire those skills would be a good idea.

[Mordaedil]

Did you know, the rogue was sort of a contentious addition to D&D back in the day? Before we had the thief, the things the thief would get to do was things everyone could just do before. Sneaking? Fighters, clerics and magic users were all equally good and bad at these things. This is because they were based on pulp-fiction of Conan more than anything like Lord of the Rings at the time.

But as for getting by without a rogue, the fact that you have to ask a question like that, is an indication of the failure of the D&D rules as they were in my honest opinion. It should be possible to run a game with only fighters, only rogues or only wizards.

You may just need to reconstruct the idea of what a campaign is to adapt to the lack of differences. Usually I would house-rule that bards and rangers would be able to do anything a rogue can do, and find traps could allow a cleric to do what a rogue does, almost as if he changed classes. Bards would learn the knock spell.

Generally, I don't hate rogues, but I don't like what they do to the game, in order to make them viable. (Sneak attack alone makes a rogue a valuable class imo)

[AvatarVecna]

If it's a choice between taking a rogue or nothing, taking the rogue is always better for the team than taking nothing. If you have a player joining, and you don't want rogues in your party, they don't have to be a Rogue, or even a rogue-like class. There is nothing the rogue does that is unique to the rogue, and the rogue doesn't do anything that can't be done without. Traps are an iconic part of the game, and yet I rarely see them much anymore, both in PbP and IRL games, so the necessity of a trapmonkey is debatable; even if your DM is trap-happy, though, there's ways of dealing with them, since a team of adventurers that can be outsmarted/outmaneuvered/outgunned by an inanimate object probably deserves to die anyway.

If what you're looking for is tons of skills and relative versatility in your role, a Bard is an excellent Jack-of-all-Trades; if you're wanting a rogue-like character with a more focused theme than "really skilled guy", you could go Ranger (highly-skilled warrior/hunter), Scout (military scout/explorer/skirmisher), or even Beguiler (social juggernaut, magical manipulator). The rogue has some definite advantages: it gets tons of skill points, can deal ludicrous amounts of damage to any foe if built properly, and being a core class (and an iconic one at that), it has a ton of support in splats.

[stanprollyright]

The Wizard has a familiar, right? And a lot of extra skill points from having high Int and no class skills?

[AvatarVecna]

The Wizard has a familiar, right? And a lot of extra skill points from having high Int and no class skills?

The bolded points are debatable. There's a number of ways a Wizard can trade away their familiar, and the benefits for doing so are generally at least decent. As for 'lots of extra skills points', even a best-case scenario doesn't see this as being entirely true: a Venerable Grey Elf Wizard 1 with a base 18 Int from rolls/point-buy who has somehow gotten their hands on a Tome Of Clear Thought +5 has a total starting Intelligence of 28, giving them 11 skill points to start with--the equivalent of a Human Rogue with Int 14 (not unlikely). Furthermore, where the Rogue can dedicate all 11 to whatever skill role the rogue wishes to focus on (scouting, trapmonkey, social manipulation, living textbook, acrobat, whatever), Wizards have three skills that are almost universally required: Concentration, Spellcraft, and Knowledge (Arcana). Sure, that leaves 8 more skills to assign, but the wizard is probably best off supplementing their super-high Int with ranks in Int skills than trying to bolster skills they will only ever be passable at even with max ranks; thus, most wizard will probably also sink those leftover skill points into the other three big Knowledge skills (Nature/Religion/The Planes), Decipher Script in case your DM is a **** about copying over spells from other spellbooks, which leaves three skills left that you can max out. Incidentally, unless there's a Craft/Profession you've got your eye on, or a Knowledge you really like, my recommendation here is to pick up some solid cross-class skills such as Diplomacy, Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, or UMD in some mix; an extra person attempting one of the sensory skills is never a bad idea, and Diplomacy/UMD are awesome enough that they're debatably worth the investment even with half max ranks and low Charisma (and on this build, you probably have a decent Cha, and maybe even a way to get one of those skills on your class list). Plus, Wizard has neither Trapfinding nor Find Traps, so summoning is their way around spells, and without a particular reserve feat, it costs quite a few spell slots to clear a kobold lair.

If you're wanting a powerful arcane spellcaster that gets tons of skills, go for the Beguiler: they get base 6+Int, are also an Int-SAD full spontaneous caster, have a wonderful class skill list for being a living textbook and/or a socialite, and get Trapfinding to boot. Their spell list is much more specialized, but they know every spell on it, and there's enough stuff there that isn't mind-affecting for them to not be utterly flubbernucked should you run into Undead or Constructs.

[Mordaedil]

How do you go from 18 to 28 with a +5 item?

[weckar]

Wizards have three skills that are almost universally required: Concentration, Spellcraft, and Knowledge (Arcana). The real NEED for Knowledge is rather debatable. Sure, it's a classic to have it, but it is hardle necessary. Equally, Concentration tends to be more of a 'nice to have' than a 'must have'.

As for skills worth sinking points into as a wizard: Tumble tends to be really high on my list, especially if you have a decent Dex to go with it.

[AvatarVecna]

How do you go from 18 to 28 with a +5 item?

Base 18+Grey Elf 2+Venerable 3+Book 5=Int 28.


The real NEED for Knowledge is rather debatable. Sure, it's a classic to have it, but it is hardle necessary. Equally, Concentration tends to be more of a 'nice to have' than a 'must have'.

As for skills worth sinking points into as a wizard: Tumble tends to be really high on my list, especially if you have a decent Dex to go with it.

Maybe my experience differs from yours, but my 3.P DM got sick of us metagaming monster info approximately forever ago and is pretty insistent about knowledge checks; we don't even get the name of the creature we're fighting anymore, and oftentimes it's got a template or something that makes it difficult to recognize purely on descriptive text. Incidentally, my current character in that game is a high-Int Wizard, and her ridiculous Knowledge checks in several different areas of expertise have saved the group from making arguably fatal tactical decisions; I like that a low check means I potentially miss some more in-depth information, and I've got to actually put some thought into what spell I use for once, which makes the game a lot more enjoyable for me. If your DM doesn't mind players knowing the monsters stats, whether from memory or from cracking open the right book, then yeah Knowledge skills are pretty niche. Me, I consider the big four insurance against DMs that don't like players using their system mastery as a substitute for in-character knowledge, particularly when the party is normally filled with Int-dumping dumbasses who are somehow geniuses when it comes to tactics and monsters.

EDIT: Tumble is definitely a nice skill to have if you can invest enough in it to make it worthwhile. The DC to tumble away at half speed with no AoOs never gets higher, so if you have enough invested ranks to make the check consistently, it's good. I probably wouldn't bother with it at low levels and would just stay away from the front lines, but at higher levels when a mage has the defenses to consider wandering into melee, neglecting some other skills to bring it up to snuff isn't a bad idea.

EDIT 2: The usefulness of Concentration is dependent on the frequency of concentration duration spells in your repetoire and on your DMs willingness to **** with you when you cast them. Silent Image alone is one of the most versatile spells in the game, but the duration is a big weak point that can be exploited by a clever DM. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it, but if you don't use Concentration spells I can understand it not being considered a big deal at all.

[weckar]

Agreed. I don't think I've ever had to make a roll to identify a creature (And, in fact, I know that our DM doesn't even allow Knowledge Local to identify specific humanoids). So definitely different experience.

Of course, it's not an invalid choice, but to me a loremaster is a very specific type of wizard to play (And frankly a role usually better done by a factotum or the like).

[Mordaedil]

Base 18+Grey Elf 2+Venerable 3+Book 5=Int 28.


Nice, I knew I had overlooked something. Bonus benefit is that as an elf the imminent mortality doesn't matter as much (albeit being 700 years old and level 1 is kinda weird)

[weckar]

I reckon the immensely sapped Con and Dex will hurt a bit, though.

[AvatarVecna]

Agreed. I don't think I've ever had to make a roll to identify a creature (And, in fact, I know that our DM doesn't even allow Knowledge Local to identify specific humanoids). So definitely different experience.

Of course, it's not an invalid choice, but to me a loremaster is a very specific type of wizard to play (And frankly a role usually better done by a factotum or the like).

I definitely agree that a factotum does it better. However, this discussion was about the viability of a Wizard replacing a Rogue in pure skill points, and my argument is that a Wizard has anywhere from 2-7 required skills depending on your playstyle, and they generally only get...7 or 8. The 11 I'm quoting is a Wizard 1 optimized for Intelligence and also somehow starting from 1st lvl with a 27.5k magic item. Regardless, even at the minimum number of required skills (Knowledge: Arcana and Spellcraft), 6 skills maxed out isn't gonna be enough to replace a rogue, particularly since the skills you want to use to replace a rogue are mostly cross-class.

I'm also not saying that a Wizard can't replace a Rogue from level 1, because they totally can. I'm just saying that their skill list and skill points per level aren't the way to go about it, their spells are. If you want a "wizard" replacing a rogue that gets magic and tons of skill points, Bard or Beguiler is the better choice. Factotum is superior to either, though, yeah.

[AvatarVecna]

Nice, I knew I had overlooked something. Bonus benefit is that as an elf the imminent mortality doesn't matter as much (albeit being 700 years old and level 1 is kinda weird)

Elves reach Venerable at 350...which is still ridiculous, yeah. Still, with this particular build, you could probably just say that they've spent their life in a massive library and finally finished reading all the books. :smalltongue:


I reckon the immensely sapped Con and Dex will hurt a bit, though.

The Dex isn't too bad; they still get a racial bonus, so it's "only" a total -4 from your base. What's really going to hurt you is the Str and Con, both of which have a total of -8. This means you literally can't fully dump Con, or you'll start the game by dying from "Con 0". Now, while the Con issue is concerning, certainly, the consequences can be dodged if you're starting beyond 3rd lvl (via the Necropolitan template, which makes you Undead and turns your Con to -); no more Con penalty to HP/Fort saves, tons of Undead immunities, and all for just a bit of XP that you'll easily make back since XP is a river. Of course, you've still got that Str score to worry about, but there's lots of ways around that (start with a 14 base to make that a 6, make good use of extradimensional storage, pack mules, and big/strong/tough PCs who appreciate your wizardly assistance in their day-to-day life adventuring).

[weckar]

Necropolitan is a decent solution. Thing is that in any other case, Con should really be your 2nd or 3rd stat. A wizard with only 1 HP/Level won't be a wizard long. Because they'd be dead.

[AvatarVecna]

Necropolitan is a decent solution. Thing is that in any other case, Con should really be your 2nd or 3rd stat. A wizard with only 1 HP/Level won't be a wizard long. Because they'd be dead.

Oh absolutely. No wizard can really afford to be Venerable from 1st lvl, it's gotta be something you start with if the game is starting at...hmm...bare minimum 7th lvl, or whenever you pick up 4th lvl spells. -8 Con means a penalty unless you got super-lucky/splurged for an 18 base. My wizard in the game I mentioned is 6th lvl currently, and only "old", so is at -5/-1/-5/+2/+2/+2, and even that's pretty uncomfortable. to me.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I reckon the immensely sapped Con and Dex will hurt a bit, though.
If you're going to play venerable anything (except dragonwrought kobold) you're probably going for Necropolitan or Fairie Mysteries Initiate, so the low Con doesn't matter too much.
The low dex isn't too important unless you want to use ranged touch spells, and any spellcaster can get around low physical stats with shapechanging magic.
The strength is what hurts. Even wizards need to carry around some equipment, and since most already start with Str 8 or even lower that's going to suck big time.
You can get around that at higher levels, but starting venerable at level 1 is not fun unless your group ignores weight restrictions.


I definitely agree that a factotum does it better. However, this discussion was about the viability of a Wizard replacing a Rogue in pure skill points, and my argument is that a Wizard has anywhere from 2-7 required skills depending on your playstyle, and they generally only get...7 or 8. The 11 I'm quoting is a Wizard 1 optimized for Intelligence and also somehow starting from 1st lvl with a 27.5k magic item. Regardless, even at the minimum number of required skills (Knowledge: Arcana and Spellcraft), 6 skills maxed out isn't gonna be enough to replace a rogue, particularly since the skills you want to use to replace a rogue are mostly cross-class.

I'm also not saying that a Wizard can't replace a Rogue from level 1, because they totally can. I'm just saying that their skill list and skill points per level aren't the way to go about it, their spells are. If you want a "wizard" replacing a rogue that gets magic and tons of skill points, Bard or Beguiler is the better choice. Factotum is superior to either, though, yeah.
If you're seriously planning to replace a skillmonkey (because that's what we're talking about here, the rogue is just the basic class for the role) you're probably best of going into a PrC like Unseen Seer.

Sure, you can replace some skill functions with spells and a wand of Knock is cheap and makes putting points in Open Lock nearly obsolete, but if you're relying on that for all your skillmonkey needs you're not going to have any spells left to contribute in combat.
Trapfinding is doable with summons, but it's not optimal. There are traps you don't want to have triggered by anyone, like a tripwire alarm that will call half the dungeon onto your head as the most basic example.

The second skillmonkey role, stealth, isn't strictly necessary. You can scout with divinations like Prying Eyes, with items like the Third Eye:Sense, with long-term summons or familiars and so on. Or you can use Invisibility and Silence to get by if you need to, though again every use of that means less spells available for combat. And of course none of those options are available if you're starting at level 1.

But the biggest problem to replace is the perception skills. Aside from the already mentioned like avoiding ambushes you also want those skills to notice clues, secret doors and similar things, which are fairly common at least in most published adventures. And you want those skills active all the time, because unlike locked doors and traps by the time you know you need them it's often too late to cast a spell to get them.
If nobody in your party has them as class skills i'd suggest spending a feat to get them ASAP. The wizard is probably the best option for that, since he can afford the skill points and the familiar means you have a free second spotter with the same ranks, because just one spotter isn't really optimal.

[stanprollyright]

The bolded points are debatable.

That's why they were questions.


As for 'lots of extra skills points', even a best-case scenario doesn't see this as being entirely true: a Venerable Grey Elf Wizard 1 with a base 18 Int from rolls/point-buy who has somehow gotten their hands on a Tome Of Clear Thought +5 has a total starting Intelligence of 28, giving them 11 skill points to start with--the equivalent of a Human Rogue with Int 14 (not unlikely). Furthermore, where the Rogue can dedicate all 11 to whatever skill role the rogue wishes to focus on (scouting, trapmonkey, social manipulation, living textbook, acrobat, whatever), Wizards have three skills that are almost universally required: Concentration, Spellcraft, and Knowledge (Arcana). Sure, that leaves 8 more skills to assign, but the wizard is probably best off supplementing their super-high Int with ranks in Int skills than trying to bolster skills they will only ever be passable at even with max ranks; thus, most wizard will probably also sink those leftover skill points into the other three big Knowledge skills (Nature/Religion/The Planes), Decipher Script in case your DM is a **** about copying over spells from other spellbooks, which leaves three skills left that you can max out. Incidentally, unless there's a Craft/Profession you've got your eye on, or a Knowledge you really like, my recommendation here is to pick up some solid cross-class skills such as Diplomacy, Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, or UMD in some mix; an extra person attempting one of the sensory skills is never a bad idea, and Diplomacy/UMD are awesome enough that they're debatably worth the investment even with half max ranks and low Charisma (and on this build, you probably have a decent Cha, and maybe even a way to get one of those skills on your class list). Plus, Wizard has neither Trapfinding nor Find Traps, so summoning is their way around spells, and without a particular reserve feat, it costs quite a few spell slots to clear a kobold lair.

Trapfinding is something you can work around with items and cleverness, or is an easy thing to work out with your DM so that everyone can detect with a high enough skill check. A wand of Unseen Servant is cheap, and the Dread Necro probably has plenty of disposable minions too. A wand of Knock is 4500, which the party can split. It's not ideal, but it can be done.

All of the skills you listed are good skillmonkey skills. You've got to stretch them a bit, but you're still dealing with roughly as many skills as a Rogue, so you can probably get most of what you need. The Cleric and Dread Necromancer between them probably also have spellcraft, knowledge (religion), diplomacy, sense motive, and maybe some others. The Warblade presumably has decent Int so he'll have a few extra skills. Both the Dread Necro and Wizard have familiars, who can act as stealthy scouts, wand casters, radars, and mobile scrying devices. Familiars also get racial skill bonuses which are quite significant, especially when backed up by a few cross ranks, they have good movement modes (flight, faster than a human), perception modes (low-light vision, darkvision, scent, blindsense) have Alertness and Evasion, can receive buffs, and can give their owners +2 in virtually any skill with Aid Another.

[AvatarVecna]

If you're going to play venerable anything (except dragonwrought kobold) you're probably going for Necropolitan or Fairie Mysteries Initiate, so the low Con doesn't matter too much.
The low dex isn't too important unless you want to use ranged touch spells, and any spellcaster can get around low physical stats with shapechanging magic.
The strength is what hurts. Even wizards need to carry around some equipment, and since most already start with Str 8 or even lower that's going to suck big time.
You can get around that at higher levels, but starting venerable at level 1 is not fun unless your group ignores weight restrictions.

FMI doesn't solve your crap Fort the way Necropolitan does, although having both has its merits as well if you can swing the RP stuff in a way that meshes. And Dex is useful enough that having a penalty hurts, even if you can ultimately be quite effective without it (Ref/AC/Initiative/ranged touch suffer for it, though). Low Str sucks if you don't have a way around it...but 8 gp is pretty cheap for an extra 50 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/donkey.htm)/230 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mule.htm) lbs of gear, and both pack animals "are stolid in the face of danger, hardy, surefooted, and capable of carrying heavy loads over vast distances. Unlike a horse, a donkey or a mule is willing (though not eager) to enter dungeons and other strange or threatening places."


If you're seriously planning to replace a skillmonkey (because that's what we're talking about here, the rogue is just the basic class for the role) you're probably best of going into a PrC like Unseen Seer.

If you're starting as a Wizard, it's the obvious upgrade. It's a less "practically required" PrC for a Beguiler, which has as many skill points and a comparable class skill list, although it's still a nice option for a Beguiler that wants a bit more scouting than social grace from their skill points.


Sure, you can replace some skill functions with spells and a wand of Knock is cheap and makes putting points in Open Lock nearly obsolete, but if you're relying on that for all your skillmonkey needs you're not going to have any spells left to contribute in combat.
Trapfinding is doable with summons, but it's not optimal. There are traps you don't want to have triggered by anyone, like a tripwire alarm that will call half the dungeon onto your head as the most basic example.

The second skillmonkey role, stealth, isn't strictly necessary. You can scout with divinations like Prying Eyes, with items like the Third Eye:Sense, with long-term summons or familiars and so on. Or you can use Invisibility and Silence to get by if you need to, though again every use of that means less spells available for combat. And of course none of those options are available if you're starting at level 1.

A quiver of partially-charged wands of select utility spells will usually cover what you need even at lvl 3 or so; lvl 1...yeah, kinda sucks at trapmonkeying without wands. Knock, Silence, and Invisibility are good choices for such wands, particularly if used in conjunctions for scouting. Summoning for disarming traps by burning slots is honestly pretty inefficient unless your summons last a while and can survive the trap (the best spell for it is Unseen Servant by a mile, although Mount comes in as a close second if the traps aren't particularly deadly, since the horse can help in combat too).

Stealth is something that's better done through either wand charges (as previously mentioned) or skill points, if you can manage it. The wizard can't, but the Beguiler can at least try with both Hide and Move Silently on their list and enough skill points to actually consider taking them.


But the biggest problem to replace is the perception skills. Aside from the already mentioned like avoiding ambushes you also want those skills to notice clues, secret doors and similar things, which are fairly common at least in most published adventures. And you want those skills active all the time, because unlike locked doors and traps by the time you know you need them it's often too late to cast a spell to get them.

The build presented early is a high-Int Grey Elf with a +11 Search check without ranks and an "auto-detect the presence of secret doors" racial ability. Even just the +11 Search check is pretty great (although a more reasonable lvl 1 build will probably only have a +8 without ranks, so *shrug*). For what it's worth, I also mentioned Listen and Spot as skills worth investing in even cross-class, particularly with the Elven bonus to both skills. By the time cross-class ranks aren't cutting it anymore, you should have either the spell slots or the wands to get by without it. And that's assuming that nobody else in the group is investing in two/three of the most crucial skills in the game.


That's why they were questions.

Fair enough. :smallsmile: For what it's worth the answer is "generally sort of, and there's reasons either/both might be 'no' instead". They're not really wrong or right, exactly; a lot depends on the direction you're taking the wizard in...and Beguilers are better skill monkeys regardless, just because they get more skills and have a good class skill list.


Trapfinding is something you can work around with items and cleverness, or is an easy thing to work out with your DM so that everyone can detect with a high enough skill check. A wand of Unseen Servant is cheap, and the Dread Necro probably has plenty of disposable minions too. A wand of Knock is 4500, which the party can split. It's not ideal, but it can be done.

The game definitely gets a lot easier if the DM is ignoring the rules in your favor, I'll grant you that. :smalltongue: Don't get me wrong, I think the limit on the ability to find magical traps is stupid, but it's there. Unseen Servant is amazing for the job, not gonna lie. But Dread Necro? Sure, once it picks up Animate Dead at 8th lvl, it can throw zombies at the problem, but it's got the same number of base skill points as the wizard does, Cha-based casting, and an even worse list for skillmonkey'ing than the wizard has. Not to mention that Wizard gets Animate Dead three levels earlier.

Wands are cheap, yeah, but there's a lot of competition in the low levels (and at really low levels, you might not have wands at all). Partially-charged wands are good things to get early when you can afford them, and getting the party to support you affording them makes them come online early, but also doesn't exactly show that you're fully filling the rogue's shoes ("the Rogue wouldn't have needed to borrow money to be good at unlocking stuff, Mr Wannabe-Master-Thief:smalltongue:"). Still, it gets the job done, which is great.


All of the skills you listed are good skillmonkey skills. You've got to stretch them a bit, but you're still dealing with roughly as many skills as a Rogue, so you can probably get most of what you need. The Cleric and Dread Necromancer between them probably also have spellcraft, knowledge (religion), diplomacy, sense motive, and maybe some others. The Warblade presumably has decent Int so he'll have a few extra skills. Both the Dread Necro and Wizard have familiars, who can act as stealthy scouts, wand casters, radars, and mobile scrying devices. Familiars also get racial skill bonuses which are quite significant, especially when backed up by a few cross ranks, they have good movement modes (flight, faster than a human), perception modes (low-light vision, darkvision, scent, blindsense) have Alertness and Evasion, can receive buffs, and can give their owners +2 in virtually any skill with Aid Another.

The build I presented was a venerable Grey Elf with a 30k magic item optimizing purely for high Int; a more typical wizard, even of the same race, will be looking at 8 skill points per level at most, which is identical to a Rogue with no Int bonus. Furthermore, the Wizard doesn't have nearly the diverse skill list the Rogue does, so most of the skills they want for skillmonkey'ing are cross-class...and Wizards, at bare minimum, have 1-2 required skills (Spellcraft, and maybe K Arcana), so that leaves the average Wizard 6 skills left at maximum cross-class ranks. If they spread things out a bit more, they can become more of a cross-class jack-of-all-trades to the point that they can be a 'rogue' with low skill bonuses across the board. Familiars can be useful for scouting, certainly, I'm just saying there's tradeoffs worth considering. Also, another point against Dread Necromancer: even if a Familiar is deemed particularly useful, it comes online at 7th lvl. Beguiler doesn't get it all without a feat, though, so that's at least one skillmonkey reason to go with Wizard over Beguiler.

[stanprollyright]

I'm not saying a Beguiler isn't better, I just don't think anyone necessarily needs to reroll their character just because there's not a dedicated skillmonkey.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm not saying a Beguiler isn't better, I just don't think anyone necessarily needs to reroll their character just because there's not a dedicated skillmonkey.

Oh definitely. I'm not saying Wizard is bad. They're not strictly optimal as a dedicated skillmonkey, but they're still a wizard, they're always going to be at least decent if they're built for it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'm not saying a Beguiler isn't better, I just don't think anyone necessarily needs to reroll their character just because there's not a dedicated skillmonkey.

Not necessarily, but the op's party makeup is pretty bad for covering the skillmonkey role with 3 of 4 classes only getting 2+int skill points and no one having the necessary class skills.
You'd be hard-pressed to find a party that's in a worse position to deal with a missing skillmonkey unless you play with no spellcasters at all.

[SnugUndies]

Gosh, quite a flurry of activity in my absence. I appreciate the attempts to answer my quandaries!

The wizard does have invisibility as one of his spells known and I see that silence is on the cleric list. Combining them is a little costly, but it's a good option for sure. I look forward to when the casters get good scouting spells (scry, prying eyes) but those are a level or two off yet!

The dread necromancer is a little summon-happy and he does have a skeleton he raised with animate dead, so they should be good for opening suspicious doors and stepping on pressure plates... hopefully we don't run into any alarm traps, though.

I'm the one playing the warblade, and I have something of an excess of skill points, which I end up spending on skill tricks and niche cross-class skills that sounded fun at this point. However, the DM allows retraining and I'd be happy to retrain some ranks into Listen. It sounds like I'd be the best candidate for that - probably won't be able to cover more than one of Spot, Listen or Search, though, seeing as none of them are class skills.

So ultimately, does everyone more-or-less agree that the best solution for now is to get some perception ranks on the warblade and then invest in some twenty-charge wands of knock, invisibility, unseen servant and the like?

[Pugwampy]

Due to my game style the average rogue in my group feels rather useless . I love setting up awesome combat scenes . Also everyone loves to roll spot and listen checks so everyone has a point or two in that . I ran a couple campaigns with no rogue players .

Scouting , traps and locks are just dungeon exploring luxuries but not essential . A bored Rogue is a naughty rogue and pickpocketing the good townsfolk is unwanted .

Killing things in the forest or castle defence or arena royal rumbles have no use for rogues . I only dungeon bum about 40 percent of my campaigns . There is so much else to experience .

Sure its annoying to rogueless players if every door is locked and every chest is trapped but fighters can bash open things , wizard can turn invisible and you can poke a trap with a pole or even just set it off and get healed by the cleric .



So ultimately, does everyone more-or-less agree that the best solution for now is to get some perception ranks on the warblade and then invest in some twenty-charge wands of knock, invisibility, unseen servant and the like?

Whats your Dm,s game style ? Will he snigger and capitalize on no rogue ?
EEeeep minefield @!!!


It should be possible to run a game with only fighters, only rogues or only wizards.


Of course its possible . This is a cooperative game . Why should any player be forced to play a class he does not want ?

[Telok]

Bugger the wizard. Sir Bacon of Pork Loin is a fine trap finder, and right tasty after a fire trap.

[stanprollyright]

I'm the one playing the warblade, and I have something of an excess of skill points, which I end up spending on skill tricks and niche cross-class skills that sounded fun at this point. However, the DM allows retraining and I'd be happy to retrain some ranks into Listen. It sounds like I'd be the best candidate for that - probably won't be able to cover more than one of Spot, Listen or Search, though, seeing as none of them are class skills.

So ultimately, does everyone more-or-less agree that the best solution for now is to get some perception ranks on the warblade and then invest in some twenty-charge wands of knock, invisibility, unseen servant and the like?

Maybe get Able Learner to help with those cross class skills? Or a Factotum dip?

Also, you never answered my question: do the casters have familiars? Familiars are really good at perceiving and sneaking without much effort.

[SnugUndies]

Whats your Dm,s game style ? Will he snigger and capitalize on no rogue ?


Our DM is very much a traditionalist in that sense, with many of the adventures taking place in literal dungeons or approximations thereof. I think part of that might have been to help the rogue have a part to play, but it's also definitely his style. I strongly think we'll need some sort of substitution for the rogue and not just ignore the loss of the role.


Maybe get Able Learner to help with those cross class skills? Or a Factotum dip?

Also, you never answered my question: do the casters have familiars? Familiars are really good at perceiving and sneaking without much effort.

Whoops, you're right. The wizard traded away his familiar for Abrupt Jaunt, which has turned out to be pretty fantastic. The party was already crowded as-is at level 1, so I don't think he made the wrong choice. Fortunately, the dread necromancer will naturally be getting a familiar at his next level (seven) so hopefully that should make for a strong scouting option. Maybe I'll see if I can get the wizard to take Able Learner, anyway.

[Telok]

Dread Necro? Animate dead.

Might be a bit of money but your dead foes can double as trap detectors and ablative armor. But it's not as tasty as Sir Bacon.

[Powerdork]

Backing up a little bit, there's a rule in the PHB (my 3.0 copy has it on page 93, Vital Statistics chapter) stating that aging effects can never reduce an ability score below 1. Dump Constitution as a grey elf all you want.

[Deeds]

In my experience as both a player and a DM, Rogues haven't been necessary. As a player, we simply haven't run into the potential problems you're describing. Traps are a bit rare in our sessions with Disable Device being even rarer due to the nature of the traps. As a DM, no Rogues are typical: I hate setting up HP tax traps to make a Rogue feel useful.

My group's problem with no Rogue is class diversity but you guys have that covered.

Perhaps your DM will let you hire a 'scout' to keep an eye out for enemies. Either way, best of luck.

[Jack_Simth]

Recently in a campaign I've been playing, our party has been pared down somewhat. It started as a Thri-kreen Warblade, a Warforged Cleric, a Human Wizard, a Gnome Dread Necromancer, a Tiefling Bard and a Human Rogue. Things were a little crowded, but it was nice having opportunity to slot in a bard and dread necromancer, since they aren't exactly role-fillers. Anyways, due to fracturing relationships outside of the game and convenient timing within the game, the bard and rogue have both left the campaign until further notice.

The part I'm a bit worried about is the departure of the rogue. She more-or-less had all of the skillpoints and without her nobody's going to be very good at sneaking, spotting, listening, searching, etc.... not to mention detecting and disabling traps. I know it's often said that a wizard can outperform all of a rogue's skills through the use of spells, but I dunno if one can have enough spells known/slots in a day to cover all of that in addition to the usual wizardly duties. Seeing as we're all level 5 or 6, are the cleric and wizard together going to be able to replace everything the rogue should do? What spells should we look at to cover the main tenets (searching, detection, bypassing traps/barriers, and so on)?

There are two different questions here:
1) Can a party get by without a rogue?
2) How can your party get by without a rogue? Let's see... you've got a Warblade, Cleric, Wizard, and Dread Necromancer.

The first is easy:
Absolutely. Lots of ways to do it, from alternative rogues (such as the Beguiler) to creative use of feats, spells, and cross-class skills. Depending on the DM, you may not even need to replace it.

The second... well, what does a Rogue do:
1) Scout (Hide, Move Silently): Divinations cover this - Scrying, (Greater) Prying Eyes, and Clairaudience/Clairvoyance are the go-to spells for this. Maybe see if you can purchase a Third Eye Sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#sense) (or craft it yourself; it was reprinted in the Magic Item Compendium, pages 142-143, with an arcane set of crafting requirements as well). Invisibility + Silence are the go-to when you need to get the entire party somewhere unnoticed. Note that Lesser Planar Binding or Improved Familiar can get you an imp, which can scout quite well (at will self-only invisibility plus flying).
2) Face: Suggestion, Charm Person, Charm Monster, and Dominate Person are your go-to spells here.
3) Traps: A couple of different ways to do this.
A) Trip the traps with Disposable Minions while you watch for discriminating magical traps via Detect Magic (or better, Arcane Sight - both preferably Permanencied). If the trap auto-resets, have the warblade smash it to bits during the cooldown period. Disposable Minions can be: Summons via Summon Monster, shambling undead via Animate Dead, Summons via the Summon Elemental Reserve feat (Complete Mage), or Unseen Servants dragging a sack filled with rocks.
B) Find the traps via Search. Find Traps is the go-to spell, although it's a short duration so the cleric will want to find a way to Persist it. It's an Insight bonus of 1/2 CL, which won't keep up with the DC's, so you'll also want something else to add on - Elixer of Vision, Goggles of Minute Seeing, Lens of Detection, and a Robe of Eyes are Core items that'll help. Once found, they'll need to be simply avoided, tripped via summons, or disposed of via smashing.
4) Spoil ambushes: You can get alternate senses via a few spells (Dragonsight in Spell Compendium page 73 gives blindsense 5 ft/cl; [Greater] Blindsight in Spell Compendium 32 gives Blindsight out to a range of 30 [or 60] feet, Permanent Arcane Sight lets you see magical auras at 120 feet [Few things at higher levels will NOT have active magic on them], a dip into Mindbender [Complete Arcane] to qualify for Mindsight [Lords of Madness, page 126] will get you 100 feet of advanced warning on anything that thinks), get a bat familiar (they have Blindsense, although it's only 20 feet), get an Improved Familiar with nice senses [Pseudodragon has Blindsense-60]). Very little actually beats a good spot/listen check, though, so consider Planar Binding a critter that's got really good scores (a Succubus gets +19 to both, and at 6 HD, is suitable for Lesser Planar Binding... careful with that Charisma check, though!). You can also take cross-class ranks and use boosting items (a Cleric with full cross-class ranks in Spot and a Robe of Eyes - also useful for trapfinding - will see most things coming unless the DM really wants you not to).
5) Open Locked things. The Warblade can open things destructively all day (power attack on a two-handed weapon, and there's some manuevers that help quite a bit). The Cleric can use Stone Shape to remove the lock's purchase in the wall (Warp Wood also does the job), and of course the Wizard gets Knock. There's also Greater Knock or Make Hole (both properly called "Disintegrate") which open doors quite well.

Edit: Anything I'm missing that a party would use a rogue to do regularly?

If someone's willing to retire and replace their character, switching someone for a Beguiler or a Cloistered Cleric with the correct domains will take care of it, too. If you want to do it just with spells and feats, see above.

[stanprollyright]

There are two different questions here:
1) Can a party get by without a rogue?
2) How can your party get by without a rogue? Let's see... you've got a Warblade, Cleric, Wizard, and Dread Necromancer.

The first is easy:
Absolutely. Lots of ways to do it, from alternative rogues (such as the Beguiler) to creative use of feats, spells, and cross-class skills. Depending on the DM, you may not even need to replace it.

The second... well, what does a Rogue do:
[...]

+1



1) Scout (Hide, Move Silently): Divinations cover this - Scrying, (Greater) Prying Eyes, and Clairaudience/Clairvoyance are the go-to spells for this. Maybe see if you can purchase a Third Eye Sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#sense) (or craft it yourself; it was reprinted in the Magic Item Compendium, pages 142-143, with an arcane set of crafting requirements as well). Invisibility + Silence are the go-to when you need to get the entire party somewhere unnoticed. Note that Lesser Planar Binding or Improved Familiar can get you an imp, which can scout quite well (at will self-only invisibility plus flying).

I'd also like to point out (again) that nearly all familiars and small-or-smaller minions will be darned sneaky with low investment, will often have good movement and perception modes and skill boni to boot.


There's also Greater Knock or Make Hole (both properly called "Disintegrate") which open doors quite well.

:smallbiggrin:


Edit: Anything I'm missing that a party would use a rogue to do regularly?

Single-target damage
Extra wand caster
guy who can climb and swim and jump and escape artist and stuff at low levels

I doubt they'll have much of a problem with any of those.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'd also like to point out (again) that nearly all familiars and small-or-smaller minions will be darned sneaky with low investment, will often have good movement and perception modes and skill boni to boot.

The problem with using familiars to scout or trapmonkey is that scouts have a bad habit of dying. Familiars dying is bad because it costs you XP and means you have to do without for a year and a day.
There's a reason treantmonk's guides call the role "the corpse", which is sadly true if you don't build and gear to prevent that fact as long as possible - something which is hard to do on a familiar.

[stanprollyright]

The problem with using familiars to scout or trapmonkey is that scouts have a bad habit of dying. Familiars dying is bad because it costs you XP and means you have to do without for a year and a day.
There's a reason treantmonk's guides call the role "the corpse", which is sadly true if you don't build and gear to prevent that fact as long as possible - something which is hard to do on a familiar.

I mean, yeah, but dead PCs are arguably harder to replace, so what's your point? Familiars have a couple advantages PCs don't. For one, they share all the caster's defensive buffs, and have evasion FWIW. Second, they're tiny and can usually fly, so it's not like they'll trigger pressure plates and tripwires. And if the caster has Arcane Sight or Detect Magic, the familiar does too. Third, they look like nonthreatening normal animals, so for all your non-trap scouting, even if they get noticed there is no guarantee they will pull aggro. Also, they can fly faster than a human and are super stealthy so pulling aggro isn't the end of the world either.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I mean, yeah, but dead PCs are arguably harder to replace, so what's your point? Familiars have a couple advantages PCs don't. For one, they share all the caster's defensive buffs, and have evasion FWIW. Second, they're tiny and can usually fly, so it's not like they'll trigger pressure plates and tripwires. And if the caster has Arcane Sight or Detect Magic, the familiar does too. Third, they look like nonthreatening normal animals, so for all your non-trap scouting, even if they get noticed there is no guarantee they will pull aggro. Also, they can fly faster than a human and are super stealthy so pulling aggro isn't the end of the world either.

They share the caster's buffs when they're within arms reach of them, unless you take a (third-party) feat.
And rogues have evasion too. It's not worth that much, especially considering that the familiar shares your likely pathetic (because caster) reflex saves.
Tiny and flying helps, but it's a good start and nothing more. And what use is a scout that doesn't find pressure plates and tripwires?
As for looking like nonthreatening animals, that's only nice if your animal actually fits in where you scout and your enemies aren't suspicious. Or considering it lunch or target practice. It's helpful sometimes, but it's not a substitute for proper stealth skills.

What a scout needs to worry about is either triggering a trap or being found. The second usually means winning initiative or surviving the enemies alpha strike and getting away before they can follow up.
To do that you need gear. Gear that increases saves. Gear that allows rerolls. Gear that provides immunities. A cushion of HP (which familiars are notoriously lacking, being half as tough as their already squishy masters). Some tactical teleports to get you out of sticky situations. Long-range communication with the rest of your party (that won't reveal you).

You also really can't depend only on shared skill ranks and racial boni. Especially if most of them aren't class skills and you can't afford all of them on top of your regular class skills anyway. That works (barely) at low levels, but after that your scout needs to increase his skills beyond max skill ranks to stay reliable.

Your familiar can't help any of this with class levels, so that means even more gear. It also has (at best) 2 feats. Some things feats do (Darkstalker comes to mind) are really hard, expensive or impossible to replicate with items.
Your familiar is also unlikely to be able to open doors or disarm traps or any number of other things no one really thinks about, seeing how most of them have no hands.

Equipping a reliable, survivable scout eats up a good chunk of a characters WBL. For a PC that's not a problem since most of it doubles as combat gear (save increasers, immunities, hp, etc), but i doubt your casters have the spare wealth to equip half a second character and make up for the slack that would normally be covered by class levels on top of that.

So in conclusion a familiar can substitute for a scout/skillmonkey sometimes, in a part of the role. But it's pretty much impossible to fulfill the full role with one.
You could share that out over several different familiars and the party, but the OPs party makeup is singularly unsuited for that.

[stanprollyright]

I'm saying a familiar is a poor man's Rogue. It gets the job done. You're saying it's not an ideal Rogue, which I don't dispute.

[Eldariel]

Spells can mostly replicate the Rogue's shtick. Admittedly, searching constantly isn't really feasible if you have to burn a spell per Search-check, but Searching doors and such is simple enough. There are spells like Find Traps, Guidance of the Avatar and Divine Insight, which enable buffing a skillcheck skyhigh.

The principal issue with missing out on Trapfinding is that most decently designed Traps aren't the kind which you'd solve by just ramming summons into them. Those traps have no real reason to exist in the first place. Actually interactive traps or traps woven into combat encounters are going to cause trouble no matter what. Magical traps can be solved easily enough with Arcane Sight/Detect Magic/Similar + Dispels, but more complex mundane machinery is going to be problematic. However, if the DM just uses PF version of Trapfinding (everyone can find Traps, Rogues just get bonuses to it), Wizard will probably be able to cover the role if they get a class that enables them to max Search (off the top of my head, Ruathar & Loremaster advance casting fully and get it - plenty of others probably too). Thanks to it being Int-based, Wizards are naturally pretty good at it. Of course, it will sadly cut into their other pursuits.


Either way, the trick is finding the traps. Bypassing them tends to be possible with might or magic in most scenarios.

[Jack_Simth]

The principal issue with missing out on Trapfinding is that most decently designed Traps aren't the kind which you'd solve by just ramming summons into them. Those traps have no real reason to exist in the first place. Actually interactive traps or traps woven into combat encounters are going to cause trouble no matter what.From what I can tell, the sort of traps you'd call decently designed aren't likely to be solved by the rogue's Trapfinding class feature anyway. If it's solved by the player, rather than the character (whether that's because it doesn't respond to the class feature - as is the case for an interactive trap - or because the situation is such that the class feature can't be brought to bear, such as a trap paired with monsters that benefit from said trap being operational) then it doesn't matter what class the character is, and the rogue is unnecessary to the encounter.

And sure they have a reason to exist. They don't keep everyone out, but they do keep a lot of people out. People do the shotgun door thing (as bad of an idea as it is), despite there being people who'll be able to get around it. Landmines are still used by the military, despite the existence of mine rollers. Covered pits and snares are used for trapping for food.

OK, yes, a lot of the traps you'll run across in a published module make little to no sense, but traps in general, even just the direct damage ones solvable via Search and Disable Device? They've got logical reasons to exist.

[Knitifine]

Needing a rogue is honestly the biggest myth in all of d20.
There's only one class you really need: Cleric.

[Jack_Simth]

Needing a rogue is honestly the biggest myth in all of d20.
There's only one class you really need: Cleric.

After a point, the Wizard can Call a critter with Cleric casting (and vice-versa, really...).

[Endarire]

As a GM who was in a similar situation (there was a Rogue then there was no Rogue then there was another Rogue), this is how I handled it:

If Rogues exist to minesweep, there are mines to sweep. If there is no party Rogue to minesweep, there are no mines to sweep or these mines matter much less or there are alternative ways to handle the mines.

[stanprollyright]

There's only one class you really need: Cleric.

Funny; my parties rarely have a Cleric.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unless you're playing a published module, the only thing you -need- is a skilled DM. You -may- run into the rogue's game-space even if you don't have one but it's unlikely to be anything but a resource sink or a detour if you don't have a rogue-like entity to go through that space "correctly."

That out of the way, traps are an easy kill. A sorcerer, wizard, or cleric with one feat to spare can pick up shape soulmeld (theft gloves) and cast open least chakra to bind them and gain trap finding. Doing it before level 7 can be a tad costly (scrolls) but it's an option. Getting the necessary skill points isn't hard.

I'm really -not- a fan of the disposable trap-springers method, though. There are just way too many ways for that to go haywire. I'd much rather just get a hireling trapfinder (expert with the above setup and the open least chakra feat, DM willing) or find some other way to find them -without- tripping them whenever possibe because the most dangerous trap doesn't actually do anything to the one who sets it off; the alarm. Of course, you can just soak the hits on the damage traps and bull through foes roused by an alarm or summoning trap but it certainly lacks finesse.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It gets the job done.
That's what i dispute. Because unless you're actually a skillmonkey yourself (like a Beguiler or Unseen Seer) sharing your own relevant skill ranks it generally doesn't. It just dies unless you invest an amount of resources that is just unrealistic in practice.

Spells can mostly replicate the Rogue's shtick. Admittedly, searching constantly isn't really feasible if you have to burn a spell per Search-check, but Searching doors and such is simple enough. There are spells like Find Traps, Guidance of the Avatar and Divine Insight, which enable buffing a skillcheck skyhigh.
On a case-by-case basis this may be true, but unless you're proposing a 15-minute adventuring day you'll generally need these spell slots for other things, at least until the higher levels.
If you pop 1-2 spells per trap/locked door/suspicious passage you'll find that you don't have any spells left for actual combat.

Needing a rogue is honestly the biggest myth in all of d20.
There's only one class you really need: Cleric.
Unless your DM removes content to make things easier for you you need a skillmonkey in most campaigns. Some places are locked and/or trapped. It's just common sense that the BBEG doesn't leave his macguffin lying around unsecured. That noble you want to spy on isn't braindead and so has someone with See Invisibility/Detect Scrying on staff. The really good loot/valuable information is in a hidden compartment instead of just lying around. The entrance to the kings vault is sensibly secured with an Antimagic Field.
All of these are basic, reasonable precautions for the parties antagonists to take. The DM can ignore that and give everyone an idiot ball when it comes to security for the sake of playability, but that doesn't mean skillmonkeys are useless. It just means the DM can accomodate a party that really doesn't want to play with a skillmonkey.

No party needs a cleric. Playing a dedicated healbot is a waste of time (and of a great and fun class). That's what wands and scrolls are for, and anyone with UMD can do it.

As a GM who was in a similar situation (there was a Rogue then there was no Rogue then there was another Rogue), this is how I handled it:

If Rogues exist to minesweep, there are mines to sweep. If there is no party Rogue to minesweep, there are no mines to sweep or these mines matter much less or there are alternative ways to handle the mines.
"The DM removes all content that requires a skillmonkey" does not mean "you can solve any challenges without a skillmonkey".
If your DM is removing everything that would make a skillmonkey useful it's hardly surprising if your skillmonkey is useless. The same applies to fighters in a no-combat campaign or wizards in a campaign where you spend all your time on a dead magic plane.

[stanprollyright]

That's what i dispute. Because unless you're actually a skillmonkey yourself (like a Beguiler or Unseen Seer) sharing your own relevant skill ranks it generally doesn't. It just dies unless you invest an amount of resources that is just unrealistic in practice.

I've done it before. The campaign mostly consisted of premade stuff from the Living Greyhawk. We had a party that consisted of a Fighter, Barbarian, Druid, Wizard (me), and a Bard who dropped. I was human with 18 Int, so I took Able Learner, and eventually took a Mindbender dip. I had an Owl familiar named Roy. He was our full time scout, and he was good at it. He always at least had Mage Armor, and I would frequently turn him into magical beasts with Alter Self. He did eventually die - in a boss fight with a dragon. He failed his reflex save for the breath weapon while delivering a touch buff to the Barbarian.
Side note:
the Druid's animal companion was also killed in the same blast. 'Twas a sad day for all. Roy's sacrifice was not in vain, however, as the buff in question was Enlarge Person, which allowed the Barbarian to grapple the Dragon, thus sealing its fate.

My next feat was Improved Familiar, and Rufus the Imp never once took damage (to be fair, this was 9th level and I think we stopped at 11).