Guidance and Initiative

[ClintACK]

I keep seeing the claim that the Guidance cantrip always gives you a +1d4 to Initiative.

I understand how this would work if you know combat is coming, and can cast Guidance without starting combat and concentrate on it until combat starts. But that seems like an extreme edge case.

My question is: If the DM says, "Roll Initiative" and you respond "I cast Guidance on myself"... isn't it too late?

Or are people really assuming that their Cleric takes six seconds out of every minute all day every day to cast Guidance on himself?

[MrStabby]

I think the more common action is to cast guidance, then step round a corner or open a door.

Given that the spell makes a noise and takes a round before any action happens it may not always be the most tactically advantageous action.

[ClintACK]

I think the more common action is to cast guidance, then step round a corner or open a door.

Given that the spell makes a noise and takes a round before any action happens it may not always be the most tactically advantageous action.

Ah. That makes perfect sense.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Or are people really assuming that their Cleric takes six seconds out of every minute all day every day to cast Guidance on himself?

Don't underestimate the lengths people will go to to argue characters will inconvenience themselves in this way or that in order to squeeze out cheese.

Mechanically I can see this working in situations where the cleric catches some indication ahead of time that an encounter may be imminent. "Dear god, make me quicker on my feet when the rattling noises in the air vents above turn out to be aliens and they drop down all around me."

[Slipperychicken]

If you want to pull it off, you have to make it abundantly clear that your cleric is constantly re-casting it, and occasionally remind the DM of this fact so he can't say he forgot. To assuage concerns about plausibility, you might restrict this to when you're in a mission area, but that is not strictly required.

Also, casting a cantrip does not take six seconds out of every minute. It takes one action, which may be taken while moving and doing certain other things. It's unlikely that someone would have the stamina to keep it up all the time, but it isn't so time-consuming on its own.

[Oramac]

I think the more common action is to cast guidance, then step round a corner or open a door.

Given that the spell makes a noise and takes a round before any action happens it may not always be the most tactically advantageous action.

This.

Or, as happened to me just last night, we came upon several people at the end of a hallway and made the group stealth check so they are unaware of us. Cast Guidance on myself, then we break stealth and combat starts.

[Demonslayer666]

This.

Or, as happened to me just last night, we came upon several people at the end of a hallway and made the group stealth check so they are unaware of us. Cast Guidance on myself, then we break stealth and combat starts.

That works great if your DM doesn't say they hear you casting a spell. Spells with a verbal component are clearly audible.

[Oramac]

That works great if your DM doesn't say they hear you casting a spell. Spells with a verbal component are clearly audible.

True enough. Though a whisper is still verbal. It's just much quieter. I wouldn't be surprised if the DM asked me for another stealth check, but I'm not too worried about that. My character is fairly good at stealth.

[RickAllison]

True enough. Though a whisper is still verbal. It's just much quieter. I wouldn't be surprised if the DM asked me for another stealth check, but I'm not too worried about that. My character is fairly good at stealth.

But spell verbal components are highly dependent on specific harmonics, so you can't whisper them unless the DM explicitly says you can. You normally wouldn't get another check, you would just have broken stealth with the spell and now they see you.

[hymer]

True enough. Though a whisper is still verbal. It's just much quieter. I wouldn't be surprised if the DM asked me for another stealth check, but I'm not too worried about that. My character is fairly good at stealth.

With an extra dose of pedantry, even writing it down is verbal. 'Verbal' come from Latin 'verbum' meaning 'word'. 'Oral' is the clearest way to distinguish something as spoken, although these days people jump to different conclusions... Anyway, verbal components should really be called oral components to avoid confusion and cause the adolescent-minded to giggle.

[Plaguescarred]

My question is: If the DM says, "Roll Initiative" and you respond "I cast Guidance on myself"... isn't it too late?Yes it's too late guidance must be in effect before the ability check is made in order to affect it.

The most frequent situation which i've seen guidance benefit initiative was during exploration taking place moment before i.e guidance on party to help listen or open door which leads to a combat encounter as the room is entered after or when observing enemies before springing an ambush etc..

[Demonslayer666]

With an extra dose of pedantry, even writing it down is verbal. 'Verbal' come from Latin 'verbum' meaning 'word'. 'Oral' is the clearest way to distinguish something as spoken, although these days people jump to different conclusions... Anyway, verbal components should really be called oral components to avoid confusion and cause the adolescent-minded to giggle.

Verbal components in D&D specifically mean that you have to speak them out loud, in a clear and audible voice.

Silencing a spell requires the metamagic feat Subtle Spell.

From the SRD:


Verbal (V)
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren’t the source of the spell’s power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can’t cast a spell with a verbal component.

[RulesJD]

Verbal components in D&D specifically mean that you have to speak them out loud, in a clear and audible voice.

Silencing a spell requires the metamagic feat Subtle Spell.

From the SRD:

Yes, but you can also just be too far away/thick wall in the way for the enemy to hear you casting.

[PeteNutButter]

Or are people really assuming that their Cleric takes six seconds out of every minute all day every day to cast Guidance on himself?

As a cleric spell it makes a sort of fluff sense to be praying to your god for guidance 10% of the time. I've seen some players come up with cool fluff ways to cover this and build character flavor, making it basically a mannerism:

Halfling cleric flips a coin asking for Lady Luck's Guidance.

A war cleric touches his hilt praying for swift execution of his foes.

A light cleric makes some "green lantern-esq" quote. etc.

It is verbal and somatic, but not material, so as long as you let your PCs fluff it there are lots of possibilities. Now the frequency of it might be a bit too often, borderline neurotic, but it is something.

[ClintACK]

With an extra dose of pedantry, even writing it down is verbal. 'Verbal' come from Latin 'verbum' meaning 'word'. 'Oral' is the clearest way to distinguish something as spoken, although these days people jump to different conclusions... Anyway, verbal components should really be called oral components to avoid confusion and cause the adolescent-minded to giggle.

I'm always up for some pedagogical pedantry.

Alas, 'oral' also does not mean spoken -- it just means of or pertaining to the mouth.

We could call them "Audible Oral", "Manual Gestural", and "Prepared Material" components... or we could just go with "Spoken", "Hand-waving", and "Stuff you've got to have" components. Probably clearer that way. :)

[RickAllison]

As a cleric spell it makes a sort of fluff sense to be praying to your god for guidance 10% of the time. I've seen some players come up with cool fluff ways to cover this and build character flavor, making it basically a mannerism:

Halfling cleric flips a coin asking for Lady Luck's Guidance.

A war cleric touches his hilt praying for swift execution of his foes.

A light cleric makes some "green lantern-esq" quote. etc.

It is verbal and somatic, but not material, so as long as you let your PCs fluff it there are lots of possibilities. Now the frequency of it might be a bit too often, borderline neurotic, but it is something.

To be fair, "borderline neurotic" sounds like it is right up the alley of most PCs :smallwink:

Seriously, we have Warlocks who make deals with devils, druids who may sacrifice people for the sake of plant life, klepto-rogues, and any number of other strange PCs who willingly run headlong into danger for a living. Someone who habitually talks to his or herself is a known psychological issue, but I don't think constantly praying to a god who you and the people around you know is the source of your power is on the mild side of PC psychoses (and IIRC, neuroticism involves being in a negative state, and so doesn't necessarily apply).

[Xetheral]

How about "Vocal" in place of "Verbal"?

[georgie_leech]

...or we could just go with "Spoken", "Hand-waving", and "Stuff you've got to have" components. Probably clearer that way. :)

I am all for this change.

[Blue Lantern]

How about "Vocal" in place of "Verbal"?

or "Loud", that would make it clear as it can be. :smallcool:

[Coffee_Dragon]

I accidentally cast Fireball with a psychosomatic component, my enemies just think it hurts.

[ClintACK]

I accidentally cast Fireball with a psychosomatic component, my enemies just think it hurts.

Back in 2e, that was one of the primary uses of Major Illusion.

The party Evoker would cast a Fireball, and in the same round the party Illusionist would cast a Major Image of a Fireball.

Half the damage the monsters took was psychosomatic, but it killed them just as dead.