Bardadin of Freedom

[LoyalPaladin]

Hey, playground! I'm about to join up with my old table for another rivetting adventure in the DragonLance campaign setting. I'd like to go for a helpful buffer, using Paladin of Freedom, Bard, and War Chanter. But bards and buffers aren't exactly my area of expertise. I'm here to request your help! Among feats and other things, I need a good base race (probably human...) and I'll have the Half-Fey (Fiend Folio) template attached onto whatever race that is. Thanks!

As a general note, the game starts at level 4 and I expect it to get to around 14. I've been wrong in the past and it is entirely possible for it to continue into epic!

Starting Conditions:
Point Buy: 32
ECL: 8,000 experience points (4th level) (L.A. buy off permitted)
Wealth: 8,000 steel pieces (equivalent to gp in rule/source books)
Alignment Restrictions: Any Non-Evil
Flaws: No
Traits: No

Allowed Source Books:
Standard:
Players Handbook
Players Handbook II
Dungeon Masters Guide
Magic Item Compendium
Spell Compendium
Monster Manual
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Complete Champion
Complete Divine
Complete Mage
Complete Scoundrel
Complete Warrior

Setting Specific:
DragonLance Campaign Setting
War or the Lance Campaign Setting
Age of Mortals
Towers of High Sorcery
Holy Order of the Stars
Dragons of Krynn
Bestiary of Krynn


Ability Scores
Str:
Dex:
Con:
Int:
Wis:
Cha:

Stat Bumps:
4th:
8th:
12th:
16th:
20th:

Feats:
Racial (Human): Combat Expertise [PHB]
1st Level: Weapon Focus (Longsword) [PHB]
3rd Level: Extra Music [CA]
6th Level: Devoted Performer [CA]
9th Level: Versatile Performer [CA]
12th Level:
15th Level:
18th Level:

[Snowbluff]

Words of Creation is a very good feat, but I think you won't want to have your Int and Wis so high.

Don't use DFI; your power attack and multiple attacks will make regular inspire courage better.

Song of the HEart is a good feat for buffing the team.

A crystal echoblade might be good for bonuses while singing. I think it's a longsword so you can two hand it.

[LoyalPaladin]

Words of Creation is a very good feat, but I think you won't want to have your Int and Wis so high.
Book of Exalted Deeds isn't on the allowed list.


Don't use DFI; your power attack and multiple attacks will make regular inspire courage better.
Dragon Magic isn't on the allowed list.


Song of the HEart is a good feat for buffing the team.
Eberron Campaign Setting isn't on the allowed list.


A crystal echoblade might be good for bonuses while singing. I think it's a longsword so you can two hand it.
Magic Item Compendium is allowed! So I'll probably use this! 4.3k makes it a bargain!

[Snowbluff]

Book of Exalted Deeds isn't on the allowed list.


Dragon Magic isn't on the allowed list.


Eberron Campaign Setting isn't on the allowed list. sonuva!



Magic Item Compendium is allowed! So I'll probably use this! 4.3k makes it a bargain!

I have made you stronger! :0

[Warrnan]

Beg beg and bribe your dm. You need champions of valor to be on your list of books.

Paladin 20 with the feat battle blessing from Complete champion and smite to song from champions of valor.

Gives you swift action paladin spells and full Inspire courage with out needing bard levels. This build is good in the early game and ok in the late game.

Bard levels have always sounded good in theory but the spells you get are ruined by the idea of paladin in full armor. You could blow 2 feats on armored mage: medium and heavy and go for a standard bard build like: bard8/ paladin1/ virtuoso1/ sublime chord1/ virtuoso9 for full Inspire courage and 9th level sorceror spells for some wicked awesome buffing with a side of heavy armor.

Heck swap out the paladin in that last build and put in cleric1. Use a wand of divine might and enjoy full bab and a pile of HP with your 9th spells and full Inspire courage. Mmmmm

This build takes off in the mid-late game.

3rd idea. Requires tome of battle ok'd by DM.

Crusader16/bard4 take song of the white raven feat from the same book. You are a tier 3 warrior with healing, self buffing and full Inspire courage to help your team. This is the simplest most straightforward of the three.

[LoyalPaladin]

sonuva!
Amazing, right? It's almost like I listed the available sources in the OP! :smallwink:


I have made you stronger! :0
Hahahaha. Victory!


Beg beg and bribe your dm. You need champions of valor to be on your list of books.
This DM is immune to bribes and/or begging. Trust me, we've tried. Hahaha.


Paladin 20 with the feat battle blessing from Complete champion and smite to song from champions of valor.

Gives you swift action paladin spells and full Inspire courage with out needing bard levels.
Totally familiar with this. Bad uses/day on Inspire Courage, though.


Bard levels have always sounded good in theory but the spells you get are ruined by the idea of paladin in full armor. You could blow 2 feats on armored mage: medium and heavy and go for a standard bard build like: bard8/ paladin1/ virtuoso1/ sublime chord1/ virtuoso9 for full Inspire courage and 9th level sorceror spells for some wicked awesome buffing with a side of heavy armor.
I just planned on getting a mithral chain shirt and calling it a day. I suppose I could go full paladin...

[Warrnan]

Given the fact that most of the Inspire courage feats are off the table, getting medium or heavy armor and casting bard/sorc spells sounds like your best bet. I've played that build. With a rod of chain spell metamagic you are a buffing monster and can do melee with a crystal echoblade and snowflake wardance quite well.

[Troacctid]

Highly recommend the bladeweave spell for any bard that plans on fighting in melee. It's quite good. Also note that it has no somatic components, so you can cast it in heavy armor no problem.

[hector212121]

If you want to be tankier, swap out your 1st level feat with Beauty's Bounty--add your original CHA mod to hp rather than con at l1, then whenever CHA increases, increase it by another 1 per point(NOT per point of modifier)

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a

[Troacctid]

If you want to be tankier, swap out your 1st level feat with Beauty's Bounty--add your original CHA mod to hp rather than con at l1, then whenever CHA increases, increase it by another 1 per point(NOT per point of modifier)

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a

Literally worse than just taking Improved Toughness.

[One Step Two]

Just to offer an Alternative since you're playing in Dragonlance, have you considered the Knight of the Rose from the Dragonlance Campaign setting book?

A pretty apt build would be Marshal 5/Cleric 4/Knight of the Rose 10/Cleric 1

You do need to pay the feat taxes of Honour-bound(DLCS), Endurance, and mounted combat though. It requires leadership, but that's hardly a tax. To give the build some real amplification to power, if you can grab the Dynamic Priest feat, from Age of Mortals, with your human bonus feat, you'll be using Charisma as your primary casting stat which will help your MAD.

[Snowbluff]

This DM is immune to bribes and/or begging. Trust me, we've tried. Hahaha

Is he immune to "fun," though?
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f283/joeschmo1of3/JoeschmoBlog/2014-Winter-SchmoBlog/OmakeGifAnime-SilverSpoonS2-Episode6-TamakoWhip_zps365bb3e4.gif

You'll want Whirling Frenzy and Lion Totem for the barbarian at the very least. Try and get 16 bab. Make lots of attacks.

[Extra Anchovies]

Hey, playground! I'm about to join up with my old table for another rivetting adventure in the DragonLance campaign setting. I'd like to go for a helpful buffer, using Paladin of Freedom, Bard, and War Chanter. But bards and buffers aren't exactly my area of expertise. I'm here to request your help! Among feats and other things, I need a good base race (probably human...) and I'll have the Half-Fey (Fiend Folio) template attached onto whatever race that is. Thanks!

Well, this shouldn't be too ba—


Allowed Source Books:

http://images6.fanpop.com/image/answers/503000/503596_1381733911762_500_281.jpg

Really though, that list doesn't have any of the good Bard books. Tome of Battle (for Bardblade/Bardsader), Eberron Campaign Setting (Song of the Heart), Dragon Magic (Dragonfire Inspiration), Book of Exalted Deeds (Words of Creation), Miniatures Handbook (War Weaver)... their absence hurts.

War Chanter isn't necessarily any better than single-classed Bard. First, a look at the numbers: Bard 20 has BAB +15 and Inspire Courage +4, while Bard 6/War Chanter 10/Bard +4 has BAB +17 and Inspire Courage +2. Combine Songs (Inspire Courage + Inspire Legion) gives the War Chanter a definite combat advantage, bumping them up to BAB +20, Inspire Courage +2, and another +2 to damage. The Bard, however, has access to 5th- and 6th-level spells, and also has significantly more 3rd- and 4th-level spells per day. Given that the War Chanter only pulls noticeably ahead combat-wise at 16th level, I'd recommend just single-classed Bard, or Paladin 2 into Bard if you want Divine Grace.

[illyahr]

At least you have Complete Scoundrel. That's something. Most of the fun bard options are found outside the books allowed, though. Without better book options, you should pick either melee or party support. You won't be able to do both without some synergistic abilities from books that aren't allowed. Trust me on this, pulling off a melee + party support bard is extremely difficult without the ability to dive into the additional books.

[LoyalPaladin]

Given the fact that most of the Inspire courage feats are off the table, getting medium or heavy armor and casting bard/sorc spells sounds like your best bet. I've played that build. With a rod of chain spell metamagic you are a buffing monster and can do melee with a crystal echoblade and snowflake wardance quite well.
I'll look into that option.


Highly recommend the bladeweave spell for any bard that plans on fighting in melee. It's quite good. Also note that it has no somatic components, so you can cast it in heavy armor no problem.
I'll use that, for sure. Love me some Bladeweave.


If you want to be tankier, swap out your 1st level feat with Beauty's Bounty--add your original CHA mod to hp rather than con at l1, then whenever CHA increases, increase it by another 1 per point(NOT per point of modifier)

Literally worse than just taking Improved Toughness.
These... :smallfrown:



A pretty apt build would be Marshal 5/Cleric 4/Knight of the Rose 10/Cleric 1
This is a viable option, though not exactly what I'd like. Will keep it on the table.


You do need to pay the feat taxes of Honour-bound(DLCS), Endurance, and mounted combat though. It requires leadership, but that's hardly a tax. To give the build some real amplification to power, if you can grab the Dynamic Priest feat, from Age of Mortals, with your human bonus feat, you'll be using Charisma as your primary casting stat which will help your MAD.
I'm glad you pointed that out. I'm not familiar with most DL feats.


Is he immune to "fun," though?
He is an amazing DM...


http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f283/joeschmo1of3/JoeschmoBlog/2014-Winter-SchmoBlog/OmakeGifAnime-SilverSpoonS2-Episode6-TamakoWhip_zps365bb3e4.gif

You'll want Whirling Frenzy and Lion Totem for the barbarian at the very least. Try and get 16 bab. Make lots of attacks.
I bet you're a riot at parties.


Well, this shouldn't be too ba—


Allowed Source Books:
http://images6.fanpop.com/image/answers/503000/503596_1381733911762_500_281.jpg
I know, I know. It wasn't my first choice of books...


Really though, that list doesn't have any of the good Bard books. Tome of Battle (for Bardblade/Bardsader), Eberron Campaign Setting (Song of the Heart), Dragon Magic (Dragonfire Inspiration), Book of Exalted Deeds (Words of Creation), Miniatures Handbook (War Weaver)... their absence hurts.
I'm sorry.
https://66.media.tumblr.com/b6d6e61e7adb56ab4283c9f96fe67163/tumblr_mqvjmqrMqs1spu46io1_500.gif


War Chanter isn't necessarily any better than single-classed Bard. First, a look at the numbers: Bard 20 has BAB +15 and Inspire Courage +4, while Bard 6/War Chanter 10/Bard +4 has BAB +17 and Inspire Courage +2. Combine Songs (Inspire Courage + Inspire Legion) gives the War Chanter a definite combat advantage, bumping them up to BAB +20, Inspire Courage +2, and another +2 to damage. The Bard, however, has access to 5th- and 6th-level spells, and also has significantly more 3rd- and 4th-level spells per day. Given that the War Chanter only pulls noticeably ahead combat-wise at 16th level, I'd recommend just single-classed Bard, or Paladin 2 into Bard if you want Divine Grace.
These are all good points. Hmmm. I'm trying to hit the party buffer mark, while still maintaining that sweet paladin feeling. Honestly, I'd go Paladin 2 / Beguiler 18, if Beguiler was CHA not INT...

You don't know of any Jr. Tormlet like classes out there, do you? Haha.


At least you have Complete Scoundrel. That's something. Most of the fun bard options are found outside the books allowed, though. Without better book options, you should pick either melee or party support. You won't be able to do both without some synergistic abilities from books that aren't allowed. Trust me on this, pulling off a melee + party support bard is extremely difficult without the ability to dive into the additional books.
I definitely trust the Bard in the Playground on this matter. What are my options for full party support? I like the AoE buffing feeling.

[Keld Denar]

Read though this and see if there is anything you can poach from it.

A Game Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445134-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-quot-A-quot-Game-Paladin)

[One Step Two]

I made a slight error in my above post, Dynamic Priest comes from the Dragonlance Sourcebook: Legends of the Twins.

With that said though, Knight of the Rose sort of is a weird Paladin/Bard/Cleric hybrid, was there something more specific you were looking to do beyond being a general buffer?

[illyahr]

Ok, so options:

Feats:
Captivating Melody (PHB2): Burn a music use to increase an illusion or enchantment save DC by 2 with a Perform check
Chord of Distraction (CS): Immediate action, burn 3 music, make a perform check vs. target sense motive. If pass, target is flat-footed against an ally.
Devoted Performer (CAd): Stack bard/paladin levels for smite damage and music uses
Extra Music (CAd): +4 music uses
Sound of Silence (CS): 2 music uses, deafen a target for 3 rounds (Will DC = Perform check)

ACFs:
Spellbreaker Song (CM): Lose countersong, song causes enemy spellcasters to have a 20% failure rate on spells with verbal components

PRCs:
Seeker of the Song (CAr): Keeps stacking music uses, provides numerous party-buff songs, can sing two songs at once, defensive bonuses while singing. Doesn't progress caster level, though.

[LoyalPaladin]

Read though this and see if there is anything you can poach from it.

A Game Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445134-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-quot-A-quot-Game-Paladin)
Oooo. I love this build. I've seen it many a time, but usually I go for that classic "I smite thee" type build.


I made a slight error in my above post, Dynamic Priest comes from the Dragonlance Sourcebook: Legends of the Twins.

With that said though, Knight of the Rose sort of is a weird Paladin/Bard/Cleric hybrid, was there something more specific you were looking to do beyond being a general buffer?
Darn, I also just realized Marshal was MH as well...

Knight of the Rose is good, requires LG and has lots of levels. Hmmm...


Feats:
Captivating Melody (PHB2): Burn a music use to increase an illusion or enchantment save DC by 2 with a Perform check
Chord of Distraction (CS): Immediate action, burn 3 music, make a perform check vs. target sense motive. If pass, target is flat-footed against an ally.
Devoted Performer (CAd): Stack bard/paladin levels for smite damage and music uses
Extra Music (CAd): +4 music uses
Sound of Silence (CS): 2 music uses, deafen a target for 3 rounds (Will DC = Perform check)
These are all cool. I'm nearly tempted to go Paladin 2 Bard 18...


ACFs:
Spellbreaker Song (CM): Lose countersong, song causes enemy spellcasters to have a 20% failure rate on spells with verbal components
Interesting. I'll look that up, as it could be really handy. Especially against this DM.


PRCs:
Seeker of the Song (CAr): Keeps stacking music uses, provides numerous party-buff songs, can sing two songs at once, defensive bonuses while singing. Doesn't progress caster level, though.
This class is so cool. I'm deciding weather it is worth it, though. You prestige so late and the abilities seem nearly irrelevant later on...

[Erit]

I just planned on getting a mithral chain shirt and calling it a day. I suppose I could go full paladin...

Armored Mage with Mithral Full Plate? It counts as medium armor for all intents and purposes as I understand, including a feat that most gishes go to considerable lengths to not need.

[illyahr]

This class is so cool. I'm deciding weather it is worth it, though. You prestige so late and the abilities seem nearly irrelevant later on...

Yeah, that was the only issue I've ever had with the class also. I mean, dropping the skill requirements to 10 ranks each wouldn't break anything and would be more helpful.

[LoyalPaladin]

Yeah, that was the only issue I've ever had with the class also. I mean, dropping the skill requirements to 10 ranks each wouldn't break anything and would be more helpful.
There's probably some early entry cheese with weapon familiar or something...

[Extra Anchovies]

There's probably some early entry cheese with weapon familiar or something...

Nah, skill ranks are the second hardest entry gate, after BAB. You can get skill bonuses from plenty of things, but real ranks only come from class levels.

[Rebel7284]

Nah, skill ranks are the second hardest entry gate, after BAB. You can get skill bonuses from plenty of things, but real ranks only come from class levels.

Codex Anathema and Favored in the Guild notwithstanding, right ;)

[DrMotives]

Just to offer an Alternative since you're playing in Dragonlance, have you considered the Knight of the Rose from the Dragonlance Campaign setting book?

A pretty apt build would be Marshal 5/Cleric 4/Knight of the Rose 10/Cleric 1

You do need to pay the feat taxes of Honour-bound(DLCS), Endurance, and mounted combat though. It requires leadership, but that's hardly a tax. To give the build some real amplification to power, if you can grab the Dynamic Priest feat, from Age of Mortals, with your human bonus feat, you'll be using Charisma as your primary casting stat which will help your MAD.

You can't be a Knight of the Rose without at least 1 level each of Knight of the Sword & Knight of the Crown. They have to progress in order through the Orders, unlike their evil counterparts.

[illyahr]

Codex Anathema and Favored in the Guild notwithstanding, right ;)

Codex Anathema was the original name for the book Lords of Madness. Is there a special ability with the same name somewhere?

Favored in the Guild doesn't add skill ranks, just circumstance bonuses to guild skills.

[Rebel7284]

Codex Anathema was the original name for the book Lords of Madness. Is there a special ability with the same name somewhere?

It's a wondrous item in Lords of Madness, page 214. It includes the following text "In addition, she gains 5 ranks of Knowledge (dungeoneering), 2 ranks of Knowledge (arcana), and 2 ranks of Knowledge (the planes)."
No cap is mentioned.


Favored in the Guild doesn't add skill ranks, just circumstance bonuses to guild skills.

Sorry, wrong feat. Primary Contact is what I was thinking of.

[Darrin]

Hmm. Well, I guess the typical Bardadin might look like:

Bard 4/Paladin of Freedom 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 4/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 8

Or:

Bard 4/Paladin of Freedom 1/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 1/Abjurant Champion 3/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion +2/Eldritch Knight +6

If you want both paladin and arcane spellcasting, then... hrrm. That evasion thing is tricky without soulmelds. How about:

Bard 4/Paladin of Freedom 2/Spellsword 1/Holy Liberator 1/Divine Oracle 2/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9

You wind up with arcane 9ths and the spellcasting of a 17th level paladin via Holy Liberator, which casts paladin spells (add Battle Blessing for swift action spells).