warlock at hogwards

[TundraBuccaneer]

Mhaha deceptive title!
I was thinking of making a character based around a warlock that infiltrates into mage collages to steal knowledge and magical objects so criminal/charlatan. So then I was wandering would wizards know if eldritch blast or other warlock spells that are unavailable to them and where they come from.
Also they use charisma to cast so when they cast a spell would that look different? Like less focus in their movement or words according to their lessons, but more creating a sound that would feel appropriate to essence of the spell.

I know dm decides and what not but what do you think.

[Toadkiller]

I would think a spell like eldrich blast would seem different enough to raise questions.

[smcmike]

I would say that non-wizard spells would be a tell, though not necessarily one that a fast talker couldn't paper over. Spells on both lists would look the same. The ruse would not hold up to rigorous examination, though.

[JackPhoenix]

Spell lists exist for player's benefit, they don't necessarily have to be a common knowledge for any character in the game. Two wizards can have totally different spells known, unless some spells are explicitly linked with warlocks and are widely known as such, there's no reason why he couldn't claim it's just a very rare spell taught in a far away magic school.

[Sicarius Victis]

It would be an Arcana check for wizard to figure out in-character whether or not it's a wizard-available spell, and to figure out who it IS availble to if not wizards.

So yes, they could figure it out. If they succeeded at one or two skill checks.

[Mikey P]

Mhaha deceptive title!
I was thinking of making a character based around a warlock that infiltrates into mage collages to steal knowledge and magical objects so criminal/charlatan. So then I was wandering would wizards know if eldritch blast or other warlock spells that are unavailable to them and where they come from.
Also they use charisma to cast so when they cast a spell would that look different? Like less focus in their movement or words according to their lessons, but more creating a sound that would feel appropriate to essence of the spell.

I know dm decides and what not but what do you think.

Warlock spells are closer to Cleric spells than Wizard spells, as they are granted, not studied.

Nothing a Warlock could say about how to cast a spell would make any sense to a Wizard, and the reverse would be true as well.

[Toadkiller]

Well that depends on game-universe fluff that may vary between groups. But yeah, if we are specifically calling out a "Hogwarts" then it is valid to assume a Dumbledore, Snape, etc. Master level wizards, all at levels at least in the high teens if not 20 (or above). A level of knowledge cleric with expertise in arcana and a 20 INT is certainly on faculty. Any new spell would be pounced on and deeply studied. Like a new species in a biology department.

It would not be an easy place to pretend to be a wizard.

Personally I would run it more like the Patrick Rothus (spelling?) books. That might be easier as magic seems less completly catalogued.

[Kane0]

Make sure to take pact of the tome for spellbooks and rituals. Makes the deception much more authentic.

You also have access to plenty of wizard spells and cantrips, only use the ones that don't appear on the wizard list if you're confident you can get away with it.

[INDYSTAR188]

Spell lists exist for player's benefit, they don't necessarily have to be a common knowledge for any character in the game. Two wizards can have totally different spells known, unless some spells are explicitly linked with warlocks and are widely known as such, there's no reason why he couldn't claim it's just a very rare spell taught in a far away magic school.

This is what I would do too. I think its a really nice opportunity for the fast-talking, sneaky bugger to be his best.

[Toadkiller]

Oh yeah - don't let my assessment of it being hard make you think I don't believe it a cool scam to try. But Save a slot for Dimension Door. A level of sorcerer might be wise too. More cantrips and wizard-like spells.

[Fuzzy Logic]

If the wizards can metagame to the extent of "that's not on our list of spells the universe allows us to cast" couldn't the warlock respond with " oh I took the magic initiate feat" to answer any qualms about eldritch blast etc?

[Grey Watcher]

If I were DMing, I'd run it thusly:

Say you're in a duel with some faculty member at the Unseen University. You cast Eldritch Blast. The following happens:

The Wizard may attempt an Arcana check to realize that's a spell she's never heard of. If she makes an even higher DC, she recognizes as a spell commonly used by Warlocks.

If she confronts you about it, you can attempt Deception to claim it's something obscure you picked up in your travels (she gets advantage on her Insight check if she recognized it as a Warlock spell).

If you cop to it being of Warlock origin, but claim you have figured out how to "translate" it into Wizard, you get advantage on your Deception check.

Of course, if you succeed, you have the above mentioned problem of intense scrutiny as suddenly everyone at the school wants to be the first to learn your secrets. But what is an adventure if not dealing with the spiraling consequences of your questionable choices? :smallbiggrin:

[tieren]

You could claim to be a sorceror trying to learn how to understand and better control your natural magical abilities.

It would be easier to explain away any effects that you hadn't "learned" from the school yet.

To be clear, I am saying you could play a warlock pretending to be a sorcerer wanting to be a wizard.

[Joe the Rat]

Of course, if you succeed, you have the above mentioned problem of intense scrutiny as suddenly everyone at the school wants to be the first to learn your secrets. But what is an adventure if not dealing with the spiraling consequences of your questionable choices? :smallbiggrin:
Ah, but that's the fun part. You need an NDA before you can teach these secrets - you really wouldn't want that information to go spiraling out to everyone. This is a special thing you are willing to teach them. Just sign here, on this contract. No, I don't know why the parchment smells like orphans and sorrow.

Of course, something like this happening might be why you're a Warlock in the first place.

[TundraBuccaneer]

If the wizards can metagame to the extent of "that's not on our list of spells the universe allows us to cast" couldn't the warlock respond with " oh I took the magic initiate feat" to answer any qualms about eldritch blast etc?
I didn't mean it like that, but more as in wizards would know wizard magic can't heal so they could know that they can't shoot force energy like that or freeze their body's with ice armour. Maybe some thing like in the wow movie: this smells quite fell.


To be clear, I am saying you could play a warlock pretending to be a sorcerer wanting to be a wizard.

Sounds perfect now only add the entertainer background and we have all the arcane casters.:smallbiggrin:

[Herobizkit]

It would seem to me that the Warlock with the greatest chance of success would be a Feylock.

Specialize in charm/illusion magic. That way, everyone's going to assume that your spells aren't what they seem.

"Eldritch Blast? No no, this is merely a glamered Ray of Frost to look all *wooOooOo*. I'm an Illusionist, after all."

[nilshai]

You can get the Eldritch Blast Cantrip with Spell Sniper Feat, so no problem there.

[CaptainSarathai]

Also they use charisma to cast so when they cast a spell would that look different? Like less focus in their movement or words according to their lessons, but more creating a sound that would feel appropriate to essence of the spell.

I don't think that Charisma casters even have a method. Wizards have the whole
"Levi-o-SSH" thing.
It's not even clear if wizards in D&D are born with a talent, or if they are just people who went to school to study it the same way you'd study engineering or physics.
Charisma casters (except Bards) have natural talent. Sorcerers are born with the ability to bend and wield the raw stuff of magic, which is why they get Metamagic and Wizards don't.
Charisma casters will magic into being through sheer force of personality. They are like Dark side Force Users in StarWars who fuel their spells with emotion.

The fact that they can use a Focus, and they have Components to their spells makes me believe that Sorcerers find ways to channel these emotions in order to contain them. So a Sorcerer could simply shout "Burn, you worthless scum!" and thrust her hand forward and BOOM: Burning Hands, just because she was angry and really wanted her enemy to burst into flames. Whatever she thinks the spell would look like is what gets pulled from the weave. Or she just throws the weave itself at you. A Wizard would know that "this word summons fire, this motion casts it forward, you will need a fistful of ash, two teaspoons of sugar, fold in egg whites, add flour..." and through careful application of SCIENCE! you get Burning Hands. Flub it up, and the Wizard catches her hands on fire (you just cast Burnt Hands, idiot!)

Bards are only Charisma casters because they use musical performances to cast their spells, and Perform is a Charisma check. Whether or not they need to study or know a certain progression of chords or particular songs for particular effects is questionable. So maybe they're like Sorcerers (hmm, my lullabies always put whoever hears them to sleep) or they're like Wizards, (first you have your G chord, then poke your head outside with a C chord, walking around outside with a D chord, then we go to an A minor, then D minor, things are definitely more complicated than they first appeared, then we go back to my house)

Warlocks get all the magic and none of the effort. Their spells could very well look exactly like Wizard spells.
"Asmodeus, I wish I could cast Burning Hands just like everyone else, but it's so hard"
Or it might look like a Sorcerer
"Asmodeus, make me the most powerful genie, in the world!"
Bit either way, they won't know the skills to pass off as a Wizard. They might mock those skills, waving their wands andblong some hocus-pocus, but they will get the spell "wrong" and still cast it successfully because they wanted to and they're selling their soul for a magical bandaid.

[TundraBuccaneer]

They might mock those skills, waving their wands andblong some hocus-pocus, but they will get the spell "wrong" and still cast it successfully because they wanted to and they're selling their soul for a magical bandaid.

Although I agree with most you said, this part isn't necessarily true. I say that because warlocks have access every int skill during character creation via class. This makes me think it is intended that warlock are a intelligent beings that looked up the pact making contact on purpose with a powerful entity. Of course it can still be you dropped you int but as class I think it was intended to be well studied in some subjects. A Hogwards warlock might have a 12 or 14 in int and proficient in arcana even if it was just so he can effectually pull of the deception.

Sure they way they cast is off and it is probably wrong in the eyes of wizards, but still in the phd it says s components don't need to be specific words but it more about the type of noise you make.
So levitate for a wizard would be: Levitas something with a feather *twirling wand motion then point up.
But to a cha caster: whoosh * solo wave motion.
Wizard should know you don't need word to control it but sound, they just use words as a aid (maybe?).
Like when an artist draws a tiger you can just eyeball it or draw a raster over the tiger and measure every detail of it and draw it square be square. Both could end in the same just a preference op work. So maybe some wizard are born with an aptitude to wizardry and also make the whoosh spell because they have a deep understanding of the way the spell manifests it self because of the sounds.

A warlock is just difficult since we don't know if it already knew other forms of magic but just wanted more power so the new ones override the weaker ones. If they were a wizard novice who had troubles with prestidigitation than mastered them with a pact they still have the theoretical knowledge and now the understand the practical as well.
And if it is the need to learn magic and understand it is part of the reason to make a pact it should come with the knowledge about it.
:smalleek: that's a big rant for something that is character specific:smallfrown:

[CaptainSarathai]

I think the decider is that Wizards have spell books. They have something that can be written, copied, studied, and passed down.

So while it may not be a meaningful word, there is some kind of uniformity in the sound.
'Abrakadabra' is total gibberish. It's not a word with a definition anywhere, other than just a clichéd exclamation of magic. Just like most gamers know that Fus-Ro-Dah is the "force push" in Skyrim - those sounds are words in the Dovah language. And that's what's interesting about Wizards in almost every setting:
Do they need to know why it works, or just that it does?
Which begs the question; is wizardry innate, or taught?

The best way for me to describe it is music. I played in the concert, jazz, and matching band all throughout school, and played in a jazz band for a few years after. I played the trombone, but I can also play piano and string instruments like guitars and violins. But I have a dirty secret: I can't read sheet music.
In terms of strings and piano, I don't even know what notes I'm playing.
I play everything 'by ear'. I'm a phenomenal improvisational player for jazz, but I don't know why it works. I can play a blues progression, but can't name the notes or write them on a staff.
I am, musically speaking, a Charisma Caster.

I had friends in the band who would write out their music. They could put notes on paper, they could transcribe what I played, into something that other people could read and copy. Those people usually couldn't improvise like me, though. Their brains were locked up with tonality and chord progressions and trying to figure out what note should "logically" come next. They could create beautiful new music, if they knew the language to express it. When I was in 6th grade, my friend wanted to do a "call and answer" feature with me, and wanted me to help write it. I was double-tonguing 1/32 notes, and he had to ask the teacher how to transcribe them because we'd never played anything with such short notes before.
He was the Wizard, the Intelligence Caster.