Pre-Tippyverse Setting

[LordOfCain]

I would like ideas for a pre-Tippy setting: one with voidstone weapons and cheap magic items but without the megametropolises. Does the Playground have any ideas?

[Cerefel]

So... the default setting for D&D?

[Afgncaap5]

I dunno about the default setting, but... maybe something like Eberron but with higher-level NPCs around? Cheap magic items of up to third level spells hangin' about, with more NPCs who can make them and supply the magic marts easily?

[LordOfCain]

Does your normal DnD campaign have a voidstone MK II?

[Cerefel]

Does your normal DnD campaign have a voidstone MK UK?

It can just as easily as the tippyverse can

[LordOfCain]

It can just as easily as the tippyverse can
That's supposed to say MK II..... auto correct.....

[2D8HP]

I usually think of D&Dland as a fallen Tippyverse (see here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?487606-Magic-Lost-and-Reborn&goto=newpost)), perhaps a series of "boom and busts" (civilizational rise and fall) going into antiquity?

[Cerefel]

That's supposed to say MK II..... auto correct.....

I still don't see why teleportation circle and such is necessary to shoot a jigsaw puzzle out of a catapult :smallconfused:

[LordOfCain]

I still don't see why teleportation circle and such is necessary to shoot a jigsaw puzzle out of a catapult :smallconfused:

It's not, I was just referring to the optimization level that the MK II IMHO requires.

[icefractal]

Would this be a setting where the Tippyverse is not yet possible (meaning some houserules), or where it's possible but nobody has put it into practice yet?

[LordOfCain]

Would this be a setting where the Tippyverse is not yet possible (meaning some houserules), or where it's possible but nobody has put it into practice yet?

Possible but nobody has put it into practice yet.

[Bucky]

Before it devolved into Points of Light, the Tippyverse had two iconic features - permanent Teleportation Circle based trade networks and golem armies. IIRC the last straw to the outer civilization's collapse was cities using temporary circles to deploy the golem armies against targets in the field.

If you want a pre-Tippyverse setting, golem armies would be a good starting point.

[Vogie]

Before it devolved into Points of Light, the Tippyverse had two iconic features - permanent Teleportation Circle based trade networks and golem armies. IIRC the last straw to the outer civilization's collapse was cities using temporary circles to deploy the golem armies against targets in the field.

If you want a pre-Tippyverse setting, golem armies would be a good starting point.

I could see a proto Tippyverse where all the neat things about the Tippyverse have already been created, but are sequestered into corners of the world. So you have one faction with the Golem Armies, one faction with the resource traps, one figuring out a teleportation circle network (but haven't figured out how to make them permanent yet), another that still has a deity talking to them (but about to go silent), and lastly, another that has figured out mass creation of magic items.

Your party starts exploring these areas in the 10 years between the invention of the Teleportation circle and the completion of the Circle Network.

[LordOfCain]

I could see a proto Tippyverse where all the neat things about the Tippyverse have already been created, but are sequestered into corners of the world. So you have one faction with the Golem Armies, one faction with the resource traps, one figuring out a teleportation circle network (but haven't figured out how to make them permanent yet), another that still has a deity talking to them (but about to go silent), and lastly, another that has figured out mass creation of magic items.

Your party starts exploring these areas in the 10 years between the invention of the Teleportation circle and the completion of the Circle Network.
That sounds cool.... any other ideas that kinda go with this?

[Inevitability]

That sounds cool.... any other ideas that kinda go with this?

A scheming conspiracy (devils/demons/mind flayers/undead/elder evil cultists) that wants humanity to remain scattered and divided? An end to the conspiracy (hint hint job for the PC's hint hint) would be the final thing the world needs to enter the Age of Tippy.

[Bucky]

The resource trap faction is insular and paranoid, living in mundane post-scarcity luxury while refusing to share the 'wealth'. Also, keep your filthy teleportation devices away from us.

[Hecuba]

Before it devolved into Points of Light, the Tippyverse had two iconic features - permanent Teleportation Circle based trade networks and golem armies. IIRC the last straw to the outer civilization's collapse was cities using temporary circles to deploy the golem armies against targets in the field.

If you want a pre-Tippyverse setting, golem armies would be a good starting point.

Permanent Teleportation Circles on their own will generally at least get you into the neighborhood. A huge portion of geopolitics as we generally understand it is based distance mattering in some fashion. A key element of playing with anything remotely like the Tippyverse is that you need to stop thinking like a muggle who views distance as deterrent: ask yourself early and often whether setting and plot elements make sense in a world where anyone can be anywhere with anything on a moment's notice.

[Vogie]

The resource trap faction is insular and paranoid, living in mundane post-scarcity luxury while refusing to share the 'wealth'. Also, keep your filthy teleportation devices away from us.

I love this exposition. It makes me think of the Floating City of Columbia from BioShock Infinite. I'm thinking airships and a flying castle, as they no longer need to be farmland-adjacent. A floating city would not work in the Tippyverse setting, so I could see a plotline with the PCs either taking down the flying fortress, or unsuccessfully trying to foil the plot to bring it down. This society is very regimented and looks down at those who toil below them, like a Victorian version of the movie Elysium.

The faction with the Golem Armies is normally consigned to the Mountain/Volcano People or forgemasters, but I think it would be neat if this group is actually the plainsdwellers and farmers, think the Amity from the Divergent Series. Perhaps they were a nation of slavers, but for X reasons could not or would not have slaves any longer, so they begin amassing golems for manual labor. This could be due to war, or a plague, a slave revolt, a great awakening or political/religious change. The society ends up like Android Karenina or the "I, Robot" movie - Most families have at least one golem, really wealthy families have lots. So they don't actually start with the idea of "we're going to make a golem army!", but kind of stumble upon it accidentally.

The faction that is trying out a teleportation circle network should be one that has some sort of non-trade, non-warfare reason to do so. I'm thinking twin cities on either side of a Waterfall or river, where they had been building bridges (which frequently get swept away) or Tunnels (which can collapse & Flood) to connect the two halves of the city which prompts them to focus on some sort of consistent teleportation. Or maybe it's just one high-level, Elon-Musk style Mage who is hellbent on figuring out teleportation while the rest of them just try to build a better bridge. There should be some reason that they just can't go directly to Teleportation circle - Permanency, or Use planar binding to get the job done. It could be that the Teleportation circles can only be made permanent on certain types of leylines (exploration plot), perhaps the faction believes that teleportation of people isn't safe for anything other than inanimate objects (like the transporter in the Star Trek Reboot), or maybe they're very progressive & scientific-minded and the idea of binding outsiders to do the work just never crosses their collective minds.

The Faction that still has some divine connection I'm thinking are druid-focused. The bulk of the gods have either gone silent or have been eliminated, so there's only one remaining. However, the magic is starting to weaken or become sporadic, and more of the high-level druids and clerics are disappearing. The PCs have to discover that the final deity of the world is going away or hibernating: clerics are leaving their posts to wander, the druids are "going wild" and trying to enter the Wild and be a part of the world ecosystem rather than civilized society (like the Color Wights of Brent Weeks' Lightbringer Trilogy).

The last faction that figured out mass creation of magic items I'm thinking will be a kind of steampunk/Ironpunkish port city society, like Piltover from League of Legends. Once their alchemists figure out how to make gold cheaply, then other precious minerals, they realize that having a commodity based economy doesn't make sense, so they're the ones that introduce the fiat currency to the region. Their ability to create precious materials cheaply through alchemy allows them to create magic items cheaply... and they use trade of those magic items to make their currency the standard, and impose their culture on the surrounding areas, and spread the use of trains, clockwork, you name it. This faction would have the least number of natural or trained magic-users, but basically all of them would be incredibly magic-savvy due to the proliferation of UMD in their everyday lives.

[LordOfCain]

I love this exposition. It makes me think of the Floating City of Columbia from BioShock Infinite. I'm thinking airships and a flying castle, as they no longer need to be farmland-adjacent. A floating city would not work in the Tippyverse setting, so I could see a plotline with the PCs either taking down the flying fortress, or unsuccessfully trying to foil the plot to bring it down. This society is very regimented and looks down at those who toil below them, like a Victorian version of the movie Elysium.

The faction with the Golem Armies is normally consigned to the Mountain/Volcano People or forgemasters, but I think it would be neat if this group is actually the plainsdwellers and farmers, think the Amity from the Divergent Series. Perhaps they were a nation of slavers, but for X reasons could not or would not have slaves any longer, so they begin amassing golems for manual labor. This could be due to war, or a plague, a slave revolt, a great awakening or political/religious change. The society ends up like Android Karenina or the "I, Robot" movie - Most families have at least one golem, really wealthy families have lots. So they don't actually start with the idea of "we're going to make a golem army!", but kind of stumble upon it accidentally.

The faction that is trying out a teleportation circle network should be one that has some sort of non-trade, non-warfare reason to do so. I'm thinking twin cities on either side of a Waterfall or river, where they had been building bridges (which frequently get swept away) or Tunnels (which can collapse & Flood) to connect the two halves of the city which prompts them to focus on some sort of consistent teleportation. Or maybe it's just one high-level, Elon-Musk style Mage who is hellbent on figuring out teleportation while the rest of them just try to build a better bridge. There should be some reason that they just can't go directly to Teleportation circle - Permanency, or Use planar binding to get the job done. It could be that the Teleportation circles can only be made permanent on certain types of leylines (exploration plot), perhaps the faction believes that teleportation of people isn't safe for anything other than inanimate objects (like the transporter in the Star Trek Reboot), or maybe they're very progressive & scientific-minded and the idea of binding outsiders to do the work just never crosses their collective minds.

The Faction that still has some divine connection I'm thinking are druid-focused. The bulk of the gods have either gone silent or have been eliminated, so there's only one remaining. However, the magic is starting to weaken or become sporadic, and more of the high-level druids and clerics are disappearing. The PCs have to discover that the final deity of the world is going away or hibernating: clerics are leaving their posts to wander, the druids are "going wild" and trying to enter the Wild and be a part of the world ecosystem rather than civilized society (like the Color Wights of Brent Weeks' Lightbringer Trilogy).

The last faction that figured out mass creation of magic items I'm thinking will be a kind of steampunk/Ironpunkish port city society, like Piltover from League of Legends. Once their alchemists figure out how to make gold cheaply, then other precious minerals, they realize that having a commodity based economy doesn't make sense, so they're the ones that introduce the fiat currency to the region. Their ability to create precious materials cheaply through alchemy allows them to create magic items cheaply... and they use trade of those magic items to make their currency the standard, and impose their culture on the surrounding areas, and spread the use of trains, clockwork, you name it. This faction would have the least number of natural or trained magic-users, but basically all of them would be incredibly magic-savvy due to the proliferation of UMD in their everyday lives.

Oh my... this is gorgeous....

[Bucky]

My one nitpick with Vogie's setting document is that the fiat currency shouldn't really take off outside its home region until the surplus from the resource traps starts leaking into neighboring societies. There's no reason why the alchemists need to be able to produce precious metals and stones, rather than figuring out alternatives for the really expensive ones.

For bonus points, maybe the one society uses the fiat currency in the first place because it used to use something rarer than gold as its currency,which it would alloy with silver for low denomination coins, and then someone stole a few tons of that metal from the resource trap guys, crashed the magic item factions' economy and started a war... which is part of the reason the resource trappers keep to themselves.

Also, I'd suggest having additional complications for anyone trying to bind Outsiders in this setting, such as some high profile stories of Outsiders returning years later to retaliate against their summoners.

[Vogie]

Oh my... this is gorgeous....

I'm glad you like it. Let me know if you need something expounded or otherwise ballooned.


My one nitpick with Vogie's setting document is that the fiat currency shouldn't really take off outside its home region until the surplus from the resource traps starts leaking into neighboring societies. There's no reason why the alchemists need to be able to produce precious metals and stones, rather than figuring out alternatives for the really expensive ones.

For bonus points, maybe the one society uses the fiat currency in the first place because it used to use something rarer than gold as its currency,which it would alloy with silver for low denomination coins, and then someone stole a few tons of that metal from the resource trap guys, crashed the magic item factions' economy and started a war... which is part of the reason the resource trappers keep to themselves.

Also, I'd suggest having additional complications for anyone trying to bind Outsiders in this setting, such as some high profile stories of Outsiders returning years later to retaliate against their summoners.

I had just watched the Extra Credits series on the History of Paper money, and remembered that the Tippyverse had non-commoditized currencies, so I wanted to work that in there. I like that spin of it though - the theft of tons of McGuffin-ium could be it's own plot element.

I REALLY like that outsider complication. If you wanted to go retroactive from that Avenging Outsider plot point, You could even factor in that the reason the gods were leaving was as a reaction to outsiders being bound for their services by the mageocracy. Maybe because they (being outside of time) saw that after outsider-binding is a thing, that they would be next somehow.

[Bucky]

Oh my... this is gorgeous....


If you haven't already, you should read Emperor Tippy's setting document (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy).

[Cosi]

A scheming conspiracy (devils/demons/mind flayers/undead/elder evil cultists) that wants humanity to remain scattered and divided? An end to the conspiracy (hint hint job for the PC's hint hint) would be the final thing the world needs to enter the Age of Tippy.

I think the idea of having people who are not on board with the progatonist's plan to build a post-scarcity magical utopia is reasonable. I think the idea of those people being evil who are not on board with the plan because they are evil is kind of a waste. You could at least have them have some self interest that conflicts with the PCs plan. For example:

1. Archmages don't like the idea of giving everyone access to abundant magic, because they want to maintain the social status and political power they have as a result of being much more powerful than everyone else.
2. Dragons (or whatever) don't like the idea of everyone having powerful magic, because that means that people who used to not be able to kill dragons can now do that.
3. The gods need worship. Historically, the gods have provided miracles and clerics and people have provided worship in return. However, if the people stop needing miracles, the gods stop getting worship and die. The gods are understandably unhappy about this. This requires that the way gods work in 3e changes, but the way gods work in 3e is deeply unsatisfying so I don't think anyone cares very much if you change it.

But even "these people have selfish desires and don't want utopia to happen" isn't terribly compelling, because the villains are still ultimately basically simply evil and uninteresting. The best case is that people have some kind of point about how the "magic utopia" plan being flawed that is legitimate.

Maybe the gods need prayer, because they are in charge of ensuring that the gibbering horrors from beyond the gates of reality don't come in and murder everyone to death forever. Now the PCs need to balance the desire to alleviate people's lack of food, or inability to travel, or whatever with the need to stop Cthulhu from eating them. Or maybe magic is running out (or has harmful side effects) and using more of it now means there's less of it later.

My personal idea would be to borrow the Seed/Feed conflict in The Diamond Age. So in The Diamond Age, there's a nanotechnological set-up called the Feed where raw matter flows from sources to matter compilers, which assemble it into food and clothing and whatever else. Later in the book, a competing paradigm called the Seed is introduced. The Seed is closer to the typical idea of nanotechnology. You throw a seed into the ground, and instead of growing into corn or potatoes, it grows into a car or a house. There are obvious advantages to that. Freedom from the Feed, no usage limitations, no infrastructure needed, and so on. But there are disadvantages too. Notably, terrorists can grow nuclear weapons.

The parallels to D&D should be pretty obvious. You have some people suggesting that we make magic openly available to the masses. And you have other people pointing out that magic includes things like major creation and spawn creating undead that are not terribly good for civilization.

[Vogie]

I think the idea of having people who are not on board with the progatonist's plan to build a post-scarcity magical utopia is reasonable. (....) The best case is that people have some kind of point about how the "magic utopia" plan being flawed that is legitimate.

I don't know - Typically utopian settings are shown as a form of control, Brave-New-World style. The full-fledged Tippyverse setting sidestepped this by having a normalized level of power in all of the TV cities, replacing a single ruler with golem armies of doom with a group of nation-cities with Mutually Assured Destruction via Titanfall (essentially).

Also, there's nothing in the OP stating the PCs will be actually creating the Tippyverse, but rather just exist in the era right before it. The Prequel, if you will.



My personal idea would be to borrow the Seed/Feed conflict in The Diamond Age. So in The Diamond Age, there's a nanotechnological set-up called the Feed where raw matter flows from sources to matter compilers, which assemble it into food and clothing and whatever else. Later in the book, a competing paradigm called the Seed is introduced. The Seed is closer to the typical idea of nanotechnology. You throw a seed into the ground, and instead of growing into corn or potatoes, it grows into a car or a house. There are obvious advantages to that. Freedom from the Feed, no usage limitations, no infrastructure needed, and so on. But there are disadvantages too. Notably, terrorists can grow nuclear weapons.

The parallels to D&D should be pretty obvious. You have some people suggesting that we make magic openly available to the masses. And you have other people pointing out that magic includes things like major creation and spawn creating undead that are not terribly good for civilization.

That sounds fascinating, I'll have to pick up that one. I'ven't read much Neal Stephenson outside of Snow Crash and the Cryptonomicon.

While a TV & PreTV setting is certainly defined by a larger-than-normal availability of magic items, the reality is that Average Jo, the level X commoner, isn't going to be choosing Adventuring-level magic items. Think lots of Utilitarian Rods, Ioun Torches, Any-Tools, Living Garments, healing wands, Folding Boats and the like. There's not going to be a need to have items to create undead or being excessively deadly.