Spell damage by spell

[clash]

This was something I put together to find out which spells are most competitive for damage at what levels. Thought I would share. Damage assumes you hit and they fail their save where relevant.

AOE
lvl 1:
burning hands: 3d6 (3.5) ~ 10.5
thunder wave: 2d8 (4.5) ~ 9
hail of thorn: 1d10 (+5.5) ~ 5.5

lvl 2:
burning hands: 14
thunder wave: 13.5
hail of thorn: 1d10 (+5.5) ~ 11

lvl 3:
burning hands: 17.5
thunder wave: 13.5
hail of thorn: 16.5
fireball: 8d6 (+3.5) ~ 28
lightning bolt: 8d6 (+3.5) ~ 28
Conjure Barrage 3d8 ~ 13.5

lvl 4:
burning hands: 21
thunderwave: 18
hail of thorn: 22
fireball: 31.5
lightning bolt: 31.5

lvl 5:
burning hands: 24.5
hail of thorn: 28.5
fireball: 35
lightning bolt: 35
destructive wave: 35
Cone of cold: 8d8 (+4.5) ~ 36
Conjure Volley 8d8 ~ 36

lvl 6:
burning hands: 28
hail of thorn: 34
fireball: 38.5
lightning bolt: 38.5
Cone of cold: 40.5
Chain lightning: 10d8 ~ 45

lvl 7 (max):
burning hands: 31.5 (48)
fireball: 42 (72)
lightning bolt: 42 (72)
Cone of cold: 45 (80)
Fire storm: 7d10 ~ 38.5 (70)
Whirlwind: 10d6 ~ 35 (60)
Prismatic spray: 10d6 ~ 35 (60)

lvl 8 (max):
burning hands: 35 (54)
fireball: 45.5 (78)
lightning bolt: 45.5 (78)
Cone of cold: 49.5 (88)
Sunburst: 12d6 ~ 42 (72)

lvl 9 (max):
burning hands: 38.5 (60)
fireball: 49 (84)
lightning bolt: 49 (84)
Cone of cold: 54 (96)
Meteor swarm: 40d6 ~ 140 (240)

Single Target
lvl 1:
attack + smite spell: 2d6 + 5 + 2d6 ~ 19
witch bolt: 1d12 (+6.5) ~ 6.5
guiding bolt: 4d6 (+3.5) ~ 14

lvl 2:
chromatic orb: 18
magic missle: 14
inflict wounds: 22
guiding bolt: 17.5
scorching ray: 6d6 (+7) ~ 21
witch bolt: ~ 13

lvl 3:
chromatic orb: 23.5
magic missle: 14
inflict wounds: 27.5
guiding bolt: 21
scorching ray: 28
witch bolt: ~ 19.5

lvl 4:
chromatic orb: 22.5
magic missle: 17.5
inflict wounds: 33
scorching ray: 35
witch bolt: ~ 26

lvl 5:
chromatic orb: 27
magic missle: 21
inflict wounds: 38.5
scorching ray: 42
witch bolt: ~ 32.5
Bigby's hand: 4d8 each turn (+9) ~ 18

lvl 6:
chromatic orb: 31.5
magic missle: 24.5
inflict wounds: 44
scorching ray: 49
witch bolt: ~ 39
Bigby's hand: 27
Disintegrate: 10d6 + 40 (+10.5) ~ 75
Harm: 14d6 ~ 49

lvl 7 (max):
chromatic orb: 36 (64)
magic missle: 28 (48)
inflict wounds: 49.5 (90)
scorching ray: 56 (96)
witch bolt: ~ 45.5
Bigby's hand: 36 (64)
Disintegrate: 85.5 (118)
Finger of death: 7d8 + 30 ~ 61.5 (86)

lvl 8 (max):
chromatic orb: 40.5 (72)
magic missle: 31.5 (54)
inflict wounds: 55 (100)
scorching ray: 63 (108)
witch bolt: ~ 52
Bigby's hand: 45 (80)
Disintegrate: 96 (136)
Finger of death: 61.5 (86)

lvl 9 (max):
chromatic orb: 45 (80)
magic missle: 35 (60)
inflict wounds: 60.5 (110)
scorching ray: 70 (120)
witch bolt: ~ 58.5
Bigby's hand: 54 (96)
Disintegrate: 106.5 (154)
Finger of death: 61.5 (86)
Power word kill: 100

[quinron]

Your results are going to be skewed if you're trying to use this to figure competitiveness - this chart doesn't take into account that certain spells are single-target and others are area-effect. If you're interested, the DMG has two methods you can use to more effectively figure the real damage done.

The first method is the one used to determine a monster's damage output, and it's quite simple: when you use an area-effect ability or spell, assume it hits two creatures and both fail their saves (DMG p. 280, "Breath Weapon" and "Death Burst" effects). The second method is to use the table on DMG p. 249, which prescribes the typical number of targets that will be hit by a spell based on that spell's size; I'd recommend assuming that you can hit the maximum number of targets and all fail their saves. If the spell has one damage roll, you round the damage down and use that total to determine the damage dealt to each target; you can't cast burning hands and roll 10 damage against one target and 11 against another, after all. So burning hands deals an effective 20 damage - 10.5 (rounded down) to two targets - while fireball deals an effective 112 - 28 to four targets.

Also, multiple-attack spells like magic missile that use an odd number of damage dice should be rounded before multiplying - magic missile doesn't actually deal 3d4 + 3 damage, it deals 1d4 + 1 damage 3 times. Those half-points of damage aren't going to majorly impact the math even at higher levels, but it might affect decisions if you're choosing spells based on damage output.

Hope this helps.

[clash]

That is useful information and important to remember when viewing the list. If I get around to it I may add a total effective dmg column to these results. For myself I generally compare aoe and single target dmg separately depending on what I want. So for example for a level 7 spell, Cone of cold deals the most area damage whereas finger of death or disintegrate deal the most single target damage, disintegrate having the no damage on save caveat. So you are right, as is using the list does require certain knowledge of the spells.

[Shining Wrath]

Your results are going to be skewed if you're trying to use this to figure competitiveness - this chart doesn't take into account that certain spells are single-target and others are area-effect. If you're interested, the DMG has two methods you can use to more effectively figure the real damage done.

The first method is the one used to determine a monster's damage output, and it's quite simple: when you use an area-effect ability or spell, assume it hits two creatures and both fail their saves (DMG p. 280, "Breath Weapon" and "Death Burst" effects). The second method is to use the table on DMG p. 249, which prescribes the typical number of targets that will be hit by a spell based on that spell's size; I'd recommend assuming that you can hit the maximum number of targets and all fail their saves. If the spell has one damage roll, you round the damage down and use that total to determine the damage dealt to each target; you can't cast burning hands and roll 10 damage against one target and 11 against another, after all. So burning hands deals an effective 20 damage - 10.5 (rounded down) to two targets - while fireball deals an effective 112 - 28 to four targets.

Also, multiple-attack spells like magic missile that use an odd number of damage dice should be rounded before multiplying - magic missile doesn't actually deal 3d4 + 3 damage, it deals 1d4 + 1 damage 3 times. Those half-points of damage aren't going to majorly impact the math even at higher levels, but it might affect decisions if you're choosing spells based on damage output.

Hope this helps.

Plus one to this. Magic missile, which (almost) never misses and can be divided 3 or more ways if you want, is a different spell than Thunderwave.
I had a bard hit my gelatinous cube with Thunderwave - knocked it back 10', which is a full move for a cube. Allowed the party to retreat and then the party lit it up with ranged attacks. Much better than doing a little more damage with MM.

[Zene]

Thanks for putting this together! I agree it'd be nice to easily see (maybe via formatting) single-target vs. aoe. Personally I'm particularly interested in aoe, so I noticed that conjure volley and conjure barrage are missing.
One correction: Overchannel can only be used on 1st-5th level spells.

[Socratov]

Great start, but now maybe it' snice to see variance, standard deviation and swing. this way if you really want to optimise your turns (thinking up stuff like, I need to hit at last X and at most Y times, possibly Z turns to take xyzzy dow).

For instance, the difference between 2d6 and 1d12 is only 0.5 on average, but considering that you floor is higher and you will have less variance (and thus most likely get closer to the mean value) can tell you a lot about how you spell is going to behave statistically. By then if you have that you can use hypothersis testing.

Great statistical assignment

[clash]

Thanks for putting this together! I agree it'd be nice to easily see (maybe via formatting) single-target vs. aoe. Personally I'm particularly interested in aoe, so I noticed that conjure volley and conjure barrage are missing.
One correction: Overchannel can only be used on 1st-5th level spells.

I completely overlooked the over-channel stipulation. Good catch. I have removed the comment on overchannel but left the max damages in case people find it useful. Also added Conjure barrage and Conjure Volley.


Great start, but now maybe it' snice to see variance, standard deviation and swing. this way if you really want to optimise your turns (thinking up stuff like, I need to hit at last X and at most Y times, possibly Z turns to take xyzzy dow).

For instance, the difference between 2d6 and 1d12 is only 0.5 on average, but considering that you floor is higher and you will have less variance (and thus most likely get closer to the mean value) can tell you a lot about how you spell is going to behave statistically. By then if you have that you can use hypothersis testing.

Great statistical assignment

I am not the man to talk to for something like that. I haven't looked at statistics since 1st year uni.

[Baptor]

"Meteor swarm: 40d6 ~ 140 (240)"

Ok, am I the only one who thinks Meteor Swarm is way overpowered? Not only does it dwarf everything else on the 9th level list by pure damage alone, but this doesn't even take into account it can hit many, many targets. Either this spell does way too much damage or the others deal far too little, but you can't compare MS to other 9th level spells and say they are competitive.

[clash]

That was mostly to show the power of an actual 9th level spell as opposed to 9th level spell slots. MS is damage king. I am pretty sure it is meant to dwarf all other damaging spells. That being said it is comparable with the other 9th level damage spell Power Word Kill, which does guaranteed 100 single target dmg with no attack roll or save. However it comes with the stipulation that the target must be under 100 hp or it fails. Of course you need to be evocation wizard to use MS in dungeons without frying your party.

although the other crazy thing about MS is it has a 1 mile range. Great for bombing small towns in the distance.

[Shining Wrath]

"Meteor swarm: 40d6 ~ 140 (240)"

Ok, am I the only one who thinks Meteor Swarm is way overpowered? Not only does it dwarf everything else on the 9th level list by pure damage alone, but this doesn't even take into account it can hit many, many targets. Either this spell does way too much damage or the others deal far too little, but you can't compare MS to other 9th level spells and say they are competitive.

By CR 17+, how many creatures have resistance or immunity to fire? Hit the Tarrasque with Meteor Swarm and it gets annoyed that you are cooking its food, which it prefers raw.

[Pex]

I just like rolling the dice. Average may matter for game balance design purposes, but when my 8th level 20 CH Dragon Sorcerer casts Fire Bolt and I roll two 9s for 23 damage with a Cantrip I don't care about that time I rolled a 1 and a 2. I'm dancing.

[bid]

Yet another caveat:

Saving throws are ~3 points harder than attack rolls.

For instance, let's say a level 1 wizard is attacking a wolf. What Int do you need for 50% hit:
- spell attack roll vs AC13 = +2 hit, removing +2 proficiency leaves 0 = Int10
- save vs Dex (+2) = DC13, removing +2 proficiency leaves 3 = Int16
- save vs Con (+1) = DC12, removing +2 proficiency leaves 2 = Int14

IOW, when that Int16 wizard casts a spell at the wolf:
- Dex save will fail 50%
- Con/Wis save will fail 55%
- attack roll will hit 65% (against 1 point of natural armor)
- attack roll would hit 70% (if wolf had no natural armor)


An attack roll will do 40% more DPR against wolves than a Dex save.

[SharkForce]

"Meteor swarm: 40d6 ~ 140 (240)"

Ok, am I the only one who thinks Meteor Swarm is way overpowered? Not only does it dwarf everything else on the 9th level list by pure damage alone, but this doesn't even take into account it can hit many, many targets. Either this spell does way too much damage or the others deal far too little, but you can't compare MS to other 9th level spells and say they are competitive.

you're probably not the only one, but i think it's fine as it is. look at what 9th level spells can do. i could permanently turn an ally into an ancient dragon, change into dozens of different forms and access all their powers for an hour, call danged near any creature through a dimensional portal, instantly duplicate almost any spell in existence while ignoring substantial limitations like hours-long casting time or thousands of gold in expended material components... to be able to earn a place next to spells like that, you better believe meteor swarm is bringing the pain.

[Drackolus]

you're probably not the only one, but i think it's fine as it is. look at what 9th level spells can do. i could permanently turn an ally into an ancient dragon, change into dozens of different forms and access all their powers for an hour, call danged near any creature through a dimensional portal, instantly duplicate almost any spell in existence while ignoring substantial limitations like hours-long casting time or thousands of gold in expended material components... to be able to earn a place next to spells like that, you better believe meteor swarm is bringing the pain.

Wish is a big one. Being able to have the perfect spell is frequently more valuable than doing a lot of damage.

But not always.

[clash]

Yet another caveat:

Saving throws are ~3 points harder than attack rolls.

For instance, let's say a level 1 wizard is attacking a wolf. What Int do you need for 50% hit:
- spell attack roll vs AC13 = +2 hit, removing +2 proficiency leaves 0 = Int10
- save vs Dex (+2) = DC13, removing +2 proficiency leaves 3 = Int16
- save vs Con (+1) = DC12, removing +2 proficiency leaves 2 = Int14

IOW, when that Int16 wizard casts a spell at the wolf:
- Dex save will fail 50%
- Con/Wis save will fail 55%
- attack roll will hit 65% (against 1 point of natural armor)
- attack roll would hit 70% (if wolf had no natural armor)


An attack roll will do 40% more DPR against wolves than a Dex save.

Attack rolls are all our nothing whereas saves are usually garunteed half damage so it balances out

[SharkForce]

Attack rolls are all our nothing whereas saves are usually garunteed half damage so it balances out

there is also an element of picking your spell based on what you expect the target to have for saves. when attacking AC, you have no real options... you always hit the same stat. when using a save-based spell, you can often target dexterity or constitution, sometimes wisdom or strength, and on rare occasions you might have a spell or ability that can target intelligence or charisma. often you can find at least one save that any given enemy will have a much lower chance of making.

[Asmotherion]

"Meteor swarm: 40d6 ~ 140 (240)"

Ok, am I the only one who thinks Meteor Swarm is way overpowered? Not only does it dwarf everything else on the 9th level list by pure damage alone, but this doesn't even take into account it can hit many, many targets. Either this spell does way too much damage or the others deal far too little, but you can't compare MS to other 9th level spells and say they are competitive.

I compare it to:

Prismatic Wall: With the right synergy (Bigbi's Hand; Forcefull Hand Option, Telekinesis, Eldritch Blast+Repelling Blast Invocation... or any control effect used properly), it does 50d6 elemental damage (or 25d6 assuming the target saves all 5 times), and has a chance to Blind, Petrify, and Banish the target to an other plane.

Gate: Not only used to transport beteen dimensions, this spell can be used to:
A) Create the gate under your opponent's feet, and linking to a space in the sky on an other plane. Unless the target has a flying speed, it probably won't have the chance to get a saving thow for this, and gravity makes sure it wont reach for the portal.
B) If you get a creature's name (pit fiends and balors come to mind), you can summon it any time, in the center of a reverced magic cyrcle, and then planar bind it.
C) The reverce of B, you can get to an other plane, then cast gate on a creature whose name you know, to auto banish it there. Legent lore can find the name of a creature for you (Terasque comes to mind).

Imprisonment: Situational, but if you have a BBG that seems unkillable (again, Terasque comes to mind... also Tiamat), this Save or Suck option is nice to have. Hedged Prison or Minimus Containment seem the best options here. Just put the special component into a demiplane filled with all sort of weird things that nobody would guess are in it, and close it's door for ever, to oblivion, so that no fool will ever try to dispell what you did.

Wish: Not only grands you access to ALL spells up till level 8, but basically turns you omnipotent (at least once per day). This spells description is basically "you become a god; betta edition"... and as with all beta editions, the more you explore it, the more something is likely to go terribly wrong. But still...

Those are just some examples of what MS has to compete with, so basically, yes, it's the best direct aggressive spell, but (most) 9th level spells are AMAZING!

[Baptor]

I compare it to:

Prismatic Wall: With the right synergy (Bigbi's Hand; Forcefull Hand Option, Telekinesis, Eldritch Blast+Repelling Blast Invocation... or any control effect used properly), it does 50d6 elemental damage (or 25d6 assuming the target saves all 5 times), and has a chance to Blind, Petrify, and Banish the target to an other plane.

Gate: Not only used to transport beteen dimensions, this spell can be used to:
A) Create the gate under your opponent's feet, and linking to a space in the sky on an other plane. Unless the target has a flying speed, it probably won't have the chance to get a saving thow for this, and gravity makes sure it wont reach for the portal.
B) If you get a creature's name (pit fiends and balors come to mind), you can summon it any time, in the center of a reverced magic cyrcle, and then planar bind it.
C) The reverce of B, you can get to an other plane, then cast gate on a creature whose name you know, to auto banish it there. Legent lore can find the name of a creature for you (Terasque comes to mind).

Imprisonment: Situational, but if you have a BBG that seems unkillable (again, Terasque comes to mind... also Tiamat), this Save or Suck option is nice to have. Hedged Prison or Minimus Containment seem the best options here. Just put the special component into a demiplane filled with all sort of weird things that nobody would guess are in it, and close it's door for ever, to oblivion, so that no fool will ever try to dispell what you did.

Wish: Not only grands you access to ALL spells up till level 8, but basically turns you omnipotent (at least once per day). This spells description is basically "you become a god; betta edition"... and as with all beta editions, the more you explore it, the more something is likely to go terribly wrong. But still...

Those are just some examples of what MS has to compete with, so basically, yes, it's the best direct aggressive spell, but (most) 9th level spells are AMAZING!


Well wish is never a good example since each time you cast it there is a decent chance you'll never cast it again.

But as for the rest as a DM I don't mind a player using a spell in a creative way or as part of a combo to do amazing things. That's a reward for being clever and intelligent.

Meteor swarm requires no planning, no intelligence, no panache. It's, "I kill it with lots of damage LOL." Reminds me of the "hadoken" spell the Black Mage has in 8-bit theatre. It's very uncivilized.

[SharkForce]

wish only has significant drawbacks if you don't use the safe option of casting any level 1-8 spell. so long as you use it for simply casting other (lower level) spells, it is completely safe to use, and there is no risk of losing the ability to cast it.

[djreynolds]

Clash thank you for this list, it gives a nice idea of what a spell is basically capable of.... and of course disintegrate is awesome.

I blow through all of my high level spells with it. Team mates don't like, we almost always die... but it so much fun.

[Socratov]

Well wish is never a good example since each time you cast it there is a decent chance you'll never cast it again.

But as for the rest as a DM I don't mind a player using a spell in a creative way or as part of a combo to do amazing things. That's a reward for being clever and intelligent.

Meteor swarm requires no planning, no intelligence, no panache. It's, "I kill it with lots of damage LOL." Reminds me of the "hadoken" spell the Black Mage has in 8-bit theatre. It's very uncivilized.

And sometimes that is all you need. At that moment you don't need a powerword kill, or a strategically placed True Polymorph. No sometimes you really, really need to kill it with fire. Lots and lots of fire. And then some more fire. And then just to be sure, a bit of extra fire to top it off and to make sure not only has the object of your scorn turned to ashes, that those ashes have been turned to ashes so that to bring back said object of your scorn they will need a chained true resurrection to first resurrect the ashes and after that another to use the ashes to bring back said object. This is the spell you pick for its demonstrative ability to indicate your all consuming fury, rage, anger and frustration; showcase it to the world (since the range is exceptionally great) in a way that should autosucceed on the intimidation check used with the sentence: "Are you sure you want to suffer my wrath?"

there will be times when elegance is in the past and you only have need of pure, undiluted and unadulterated, refined and distilled, uncompromising and unrelenting metric !@#$tons of brute force.

That is when you tell the party to "Hold my brandy, I got this. I prepared Meteor Swarm this morning". Bonus points for Oprah-ing your casting.

[Kryx]

I have a spreadsheet that tries to use some size assumptions to value each spell's damage. Spell Balance (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N4QC6EmXE0avgk8jK1aubJcaFoZDYw8b_DuPHh8aBTc/edit#gid=639488216)

My implementation of condition values is quite mediocre at best, but the damage part is pretty good.

[Baptor]

And sometimes that is all you need. At that moment you don't need a powerword kill, or a strategically placed True Polymorph. No sometimes you really, really need to kill it with fire. Lots and lots of fire. And then some more fire. And then just to be sure, a bit of extra fire to top it off and to make sure not only has the object of your scorn turned to ashes, that those ashes have been turned to ashes so that to bring back said object of your scorn they will need a chained true resurrection to first resurrect the ashes and after that another to use the ashes to bring back said object. This is the spell you pick for its demonstrative ability to indicate your all consuming fury, rage, anger and frustration; showcase it to the world (since the range is exceptionally great) in a way that should autosucceed on the intimidation check used with the sentence: "Are you sure you want to suffer my wrath?"

there will be times when elegance is in the past and you only have need of pure, undiluted and unadulterated, refined and distilled, uncompromising and unrelenting metric !@#$tons of brute force.

That is when you tell the party to "Hold my brandy, I got this. I prepared Meteor Swarm this morning". Bonus points for Oprah-ing your casting.

This keeps going back and forth for some reason and no one seems to get my point.

I'm not saying mages shouldn't be able to kill it with fire, I'm saying there is a raw damage disparity between Meteor Swarm and every other spell in the game. The damage is going from a spell like Horrid Wilting which does 10d8 at 8th level to Meteor Swarm that does 40d6. That's 45 average damage versus 140 average damage and only a 1 level increase. There is never a jump that high. There is no explanation for it. It is not excusable. All you can say is "Meteor Swarm is terribly imbalanced and I like it that way." Which is fine if that's what you want, but you can't say it's balanced against the spell progression of the rest of the game, cause it's not.

So it's either Meteor Swarm deals too much damage or the other damage spells deal too little. I suppose without a lot of evidence it could be either but it's definitely one or the other, because the other damage spells pale in comparison.

[Socratov]

This keeps going back and forth for some reason and no one seems to get my point.

I'm not saying mages shouldn't be able to kill it with fire, I'm saying there is a raw damage disparity between Meteor Swarm and every other spell in the game. The damage is going from a spell like Horrid Wilting which does 10d8 at 8th level to Meteor Swarm that does 40d6. That's 45 average damage versus 140 average damage and only a 1 level increase. There is never a jump that high. There is no explanation for it. It is not excusable. All you can say is "Meteor Swarm is terribly imbalanced and I like it that way." Which is fine if that's what you want, but you can't say it's balanced against the spell progression of the rest of the game, cause it's not.

Shoot I'd be willing to accept double: 90 damage for Meteor Swarm (20d8). That's a good spell compared to the rest. Very good in fact. But 40d6? That is not balanced. It's just not.
It's 10d6, in 4 area's (and thus if you overlap them, allowing a save for each 10d6 meteor landing), targeting a dex save (overall a save easily resisted), typed as fire damage (the moest resisted and immune nonmagic damage type out there). Plus, this is a 9th lvl spell, highest lvl available, available at the same level as wish. It should be powerful. By then damage is hardly your biggest problem.

[SharkForce]

This keeps going back and forth for some reason and no one seems to get my point.

I'm not saying mages shouldn't be able to kill it with fire, I'm saying there is a raw damage disparity between Meteor Swarm and every other spell in the game. The damage is going from a spell like Horrid Wilting which does 10d8 at 8th level to Meteor Swarm that does 40d6. That's 45 average damage versus 140 average damage and only a 1 level increase. There is never a jump that high. There is no explanation for it. It is not excusable. All you can say is "Meteor Swarm is terribly imbalanced and I like it that way." Which is fine if that's what you want, but you can't say it's balanced against the spell progression of the rest of the game, cause it's not.

So it's either Meteor Swarm deals too much damage or the other damage spells deal too little. I suppose without a lot of evidence it could be either but it's definitely one or the other, because the other damage spells pale in comparison.

alternately, level 8 spells are mostly kinda bad, and should not be used as the basis for balancing other spells.

[RickAllison]

It's 10d6, in 4 area's (and thus if you overlap them, allowing a save for each 10d6 meteor landing), targeting a dex save (overall a save easily resisted), typed as fire damage (the moest resisted and immune nonmagic damage type out there). Plus, this is a 9th lvl spell, highest lvl available, available at the same level as wish. It should be powerful. By then damage is hardly your biggest problem.

Nope! At least in 5e (dunno about previous editions), it is four meteors whose damage does NOT overlap, but they all do 20d6 fire and 20d6 bludgeoning. So whether someone is in the overlap between four meteors or on the edge of one, they all take the same amount of damage (like I assume Twinned Ice Knife would work for damage if they overlap).

[Baptor]

It's 10d6, in 4 area's (and thus if you overlap them, allowing a save for each 10d6 meteor landing), targeting a dex save (overall a save easily resisted), typed as fire damage (the moest resisted and immune nonmagic damage type out there). Plus, this is a 9th lvl spell, highest lvl available, available at the same level as wish. It should be powerful. By then damage is hardly your biggest problem.

I can start to see why no one is getting it.

This information is incorrect. It's 20d6 fire and 20d6 bludgeon in each and every sphere. They do not overlap. So first of all its only half fire, whereas the other half is physical damage. Not so easily resisted. In fact, its the best of both worlds. Most creatures are energy or physical resistant but rarely both, meaning you will be putting on the pain no matter what.

As far as damage being no problem at 17-20th level, that's also not really true. WotC has said many times that hit points are the guiding factor in monster toughness in this edition, and it shows. High level monsters have buckets and buckets of hit points, so damage is just as important at this level as any other.

That wasn't necessarily true in earlier editions like 3.5, where instant death was king. By 20th level the strategy for mages was stacking enervates to lower saves so you could finish them with a Finger of Death. Initiative was everything and hit points were meaningless by this point. That's not true of 5e.

But then again edition confusion seems to be a great part of this conversation as we continue to talk past one another. ;)

[Kryx]

Most creatures are energy or physical resistant but rarely both, meaning you will be putting on the pain no matter what.
There is no resistance to bludgeoning from spells as far as I know. The wording I know is "bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical weapons"

So as far as I'm aware bludgeoning spells are never resisted

[clash]

This keeps going back and forth for some reason and no one seems to get my point.

I'm not saying mages shouldn't be able to kill it with fire, I'm saying there is a raw damage disparity between Meteor Swarm and every other spell in the game. The damage is going from a spell like Horrid Wilting which does 10d8 at 8th level to Meteor Swarm that does 40d6. That's 45 average damage versus 140 average damage and only a 1 level increase. There is never a jump that high. There is no explanation for it. It is not excusable. All you can say is "Meteor Swarm is terribly imbalanced and I like it that way." Which is fine if that's what you want, but you can't say it's balanced against the spell progression of the rest of the game, cause it's not.

So it's either Meteor Swarm deals too much damage or the other damage spells deal too little. I suppose without a lot of evidence it could be either but it's definitely one or the other, because the other damage spells pale in comparison.

You cant balance it with the normal progression though because 9th level spells are intended to be a large boost in power. In 5e there are several such bumps typically around level 5, 11, and 17. As a blaster you can see that at level 5 you get fireball with does as much damage as your best single target spells in an aoe so its a power boost. At level 11 You get disintegrate which can outmatch any other spell at that level by a long shot. At level 17 9th level spells come into play. So its not so much about being balanced against 8th level spells in 9th level slots. If that were the case there would be no disadvantage to multiclassing casters. Instead it needs to be compared to other 9th level spells which is what posters have been doing to show it is balanced.

[RickAllison]

There is no resistance to bludgeoning from spells as far as I know. The wording I know is "bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical weapons"

So as far as I'm aware bludgeoning spells are never resisted

There is also "bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from magical weapons" (usually coupled with immunity to nonmagical weapons). The only odd one is the Treant, which is flat resistant to bludgeoning damage (but weak to fire, so there is that).

[Baptor]

There is no resistance to bludgeoning from spells as far as I know. The wording I know is "bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical weapons"

So as far as I'm aware bludgeoning spells are never resisted

So it's even better than I thought. Wow.


You cant balance it with the normal progression though because 9th level spells are intended to be a large boost in power. In 5e there are several such bumps typically around level 5, 11, and 17. As a blaster you can see that at level 5 you get fireball with does as much damage as your best single target spells in an aoe so its a power boost. At level 11 You get disintegrate which can outmatch any other spell at that level by a long shot. At level 17 9th level spells come into play. So its not so much about being balanced against 8th level spells in 9th level slots. If that were the case there would be no disadvantage to multiclassing casters. Instead it needs to be compared to other 9th level spells which is what posters have been doing to show it is balanced.

Now this makes some sense. I never thought about multiclassing. This would be a big incentive to go pure caster: to get the godly spells of the dreaded Ninth Circle of Arcana. You have a point about fireball too, it deals too much damage for its level, though not nearly as big a jump as we see with MS. Still, I get your point. Thanks for replying. I was never looking to ban it, just to understand it.

[SharkForce]

There is no resistance to bludgeoning from spells as far as I know. The wording I know is "bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical weapons"

So as far as I'm aware bludgeoning spells are never resisted

there are i believe a few things that give resistance to damage from magical sources... the ability is called magic resistance or something like that (and is frustratingly not the same thing as the magic resistance that gives you advantage on saves vs magic in spite of having either a very similar or even possibly identical name). it wouldn't give specific protection from bludgeoning damage, but it would still reduce the bludgeoning damage from a meteor swarm.

and of course, oath of the ancients paladins.

[Kryx]

there are i believe a few things that give resistance to damage from magical sources...
Ya, I figured there might be a few special cases like the Treant. There are also some cases like you mentioned.

What I was clarifying was that the much more common resistance to b/p/s was only to weapons.