Number Feats vs Ability Feats, and balancing increased feat gain

[Mlmiii]

Something I've noticed in a lot of systems with upgrades (StarCraft upgrades, D&D/PF Feats, Skyrim skills, etc.) is that there's a varied mix between feats that make you do something better (Number feats) and feats that let you do something at all (Ability feats). For example, in Skyrim's version of the Evocation school (Destruction), the skill tree branch focused on fire offers first a 25% increase in fire damage dealt (number), followed by a skill that causes low-health enemies to flee while burning (ability).

Since a lot of character concepts (especially TWF'ers, grapplers, and shield-users) require numerous feats to get rolling, I was wondering about a system that allows feats to be learned in much the same way that a wizard's spells can. Should number feats be banned from this system to restrict number growth to level increases (assuming TWF, improved unarmed strike, and other such "you don't take the penalty normally associated with X" feats count as ability feats) or is another restriction method needed? Should I just crib the wizard's spell-copying mechanics for this or work out different formulas? Should there be a maximum to how many "learned" feats you could have at a given level?

[daremetoidareyo]

You are proposing a huge endeavor. Auto leveling feats on odd levels maybe a way to go. For example: weapon focus, point blank shot, expertise, and 2wf prereqs for a ton of feats. After two levels of having a feat, you could allow a player to "upgrade" it by adding a new feat to their feats known. This new feat must have its prereqs met (or not) and it must have the feat that it's based off as a pre req. E.g.: point blank shot taken at level 1 can have far shot or precise shot added. At level 5, you take dead eye. etc.

the only way this works well is if you have a searchable database of feats...

[ryu]

I say let martial feats work exactly like spell learning with no added restriction. They're badly in need of the help, and number feats are both the weakest type of feat in this system and the thing that make up most of the martial list.

[Venger]

I say let martial feats work exactly like spell learning with no added restriction. They're badly in need of the help, and number feats are both the weakest type of feat in this system and the thing that make up most of the martial list.

if you do that, just make sure you have clear delineations between who's a martial and who's a caster, and don't let casters enjoy them too.

[ryu]

if you do that, just make sure you have clear delineations between who's a martial and who's a caster, and don't let casters enjoy them too.

I mean.... Sure? Most of the stuff I was talking about were things I wouldn't spend gold on to begin with. Ignoring improved initiative can you even name a feat related to martials in any way that I'd spend resources on as a caster?

[martixy]

From a game design standpoint numbers are boring as f*ck.

Something the designers of this and many other games(like borderlands) never understood.

If you have to have a numbers feat, make it auto-leveling, if that's the balancing factor you're going for.

It is the ability feats that are the crux of the system.

Balance, in a sense, is overrated in a non-competitive environment/game.

Therefore I am perfectly fine with having less powerful martials.

However what constitutes a fun game is the ability to take meaningful decisions at any point of the game.
You don't need balance for that. What you do need is variety.

Casters can do this with their spells.
Martials can do this with feats. This is why it is important to minimize numerical feats, all they equate to is feat taxes. It's the same as requiring a wizard that just leveled to scribe his favourite fireball spell at his new caster level, just so he can use it.

This is why weapon focus, dodge, mobility and the Imp. TWF line are such bad feats, but Spring attack and TWF are good ones - the allow the character an ability he did not have before.

[stanprollyright]

It's called the Tome of Battle