Erudite and Psion ACFs?

[schreier]

The Erudite ( http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060406b&page=1 ) is listed as an alternate psion, so some sites argue that rules that apply to psions can be applied to erudites. Honsetly, this makes sense to me, as I would allow a paladin ACF to be used on a Sentinel for example (a neutral good paladin), as long as the powers/abilities being sacrificed as part of the ACF or substitution level were still at that level.

Now ... the Erudite has a few specific ACFs (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a )

The relevant ones - in this case, are convert spell to power, and favored discipline. Both require sacrificing the first level bonus feat, so you can not take both.

The psion (telepath) has an ACF called Telepathic Communication ( http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a ) that requires the sacrifice of your 5th level bonus feat.

Would an Erudite be able to take Telepathic Communication generally? If it is possible, does the erudite has to take Favored Discipline (Telepath) in order to take Telepathic Communication? Can an Erudite take both Convert Spell to Power and Telepathic Communication?

My gut is that an erudite can take telepathic communication, but only if they take favored discipline (telepath) - but I wanted a second opinion.

Thanks!
schreier

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The relevant ones - in this case, are convert spell to power, and favored discipline. Both require sacrificing the first level bonus feat, so you can not totally take both because you get two first level bonus feats.Fixed that for you.

As for the telepath ACF, an erudite is not a telepath, and so he couldn't take the ACF, even with favored discipline.

[schreier]

It says you get psicrystal affinity as a bonus feat - but I would not necessarily read that as being your "bonus feat" for purposes of exchanging for an ACF. Is that the standard interpretation?

By that reading, you could sacrifice psicrystal affinity and keep your "any bonus feat" bonus feat to make the level 1 erudite even more flexible.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It says you get psicrystal affinity as a bonus feat - but I would not necessarily read that as being your "bonus feat" for purposes of exchanging for an ACF. Is that the standard interpretation?

By that reading, you could sacrifice psicrystal affinity and keep your "any bonus feat" bonus feat to make the level 1 erudite even more flexible.They're both bonus feats you gain at 1st level. There's no interpretation to it.

[schreier]

On the erudite ACF page, it specifically says "Replaces: You lose your 1st-level bonus feat" not "one of your 1-st level bonus feats". The choice of language would seem to indicate that they believe there is only one bonus feat.

[Troacctid]

You can only take one of them. You can't replace your bonus feat twice.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You can only take one of them. You can't replace your bonus feat twice.But you can replace two, once each.

Tell me, is Psicrystal Affinity not a bonus feat? Do you not get it at 1st level?

It looks an awful lot like a 1st level bonus feat to me.

[edit] The CPsi text even says it's a bonus feat gained at 1st level.

[Cerefel]

But is it under the listing for the class feature called "Bonus Feat"?

[Knitifine]

They're both bonus feats you gain at 1st level. There's no interpretation to it.Chiming in to say that this is a very atypical and bizarre interpretation.

[Troacctid]

It's a separate class feature.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Chiming in to say that this is a very atypical and bizarre interpretation.
I disagree. It's very, very obvious: any bonus feat gained at first level (from erudite levels) is a first-level bonus feat for the purpose of erudite ACFs. Atypical and bizarre would be to trade your human bonus feat (a first-level bonus feat) for an erudite ACF.

Note that the ACF does not, and could not say "You lose your Bonus Feat [class feature] at first level". Erudites have no 'Bonus Feat' class feature at six different levels. They have one 'Bonus Feats' class feature, and one Psicrystal class feature, and within those abilities you get six and one bonus feat(s), respectively. The ACF is looking inside those abilities to let you trade only part of the ability for something else, regardless of what the class ability is called.

In any case, that's not the focus of the thread. The question at hand is: Can an erudite take psion ACFs? Well, sure, and psions can take erudite ACFs (not that they benefit from StP, but it's the principle of the thing), if your group is okay with it - for what it's worth, I would be, and I think it's not terribly unbalanced (but it is a buff). I would also allow an erudite to take the telepathy ACF, if they have taken telepathy as favoured discipline, using the relevant ACF.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

But is it under the listing for the class feature called "Bonus Feat"?The ACFs both trade a 1st level bonus feat for their benefits. How many class-based bonus feats does an erudite get at 1st level? If your answer is anything other than "two," it's demonstrably incorrect.

[schreier]

The ACFs both trade a 1st level bonus feat for their benefits. How many class-based bonus feats does an erudite get at 1st level? If your answer is anything other than "two," it's demonstrably incorrect.

It is clear that both feats are "bonus feats" - as a descriptor. At the same time, the class features are described as:

"Psicrystal: At 1st level, an erudite gains Psicrystal Affinity (EPH 49) as a bonus feat."

"Bonus Feats: An erudite gains a bonus feat at 1st level, 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level. This feat must be a psionic feat, a metapsionic feat, or a psionic item creation feat. These bonus feats are in addition to the feats that a character of any class gains every three levels (as shown on Table 3-2: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits, PH 22). An erudite is not limited to psionic feats, metapsionic feats, and psionic item creation feats when choosing these other feats."

So one feature is "Psicrystal," and one is "Bonus Feats"


Under the ACFs, it says:
"Favored Discipline - Unlike most erudites, you have a discipline that you favor above all others.
Replaces: You lose your 1st-level bonus feat.
Benefit: You choose a single discipline and all powers of that discipline, no matter what class list they are on, are considered general psion/wilder powers for purposes of learning."

and

"Convert Spell to Power - Your training has included basic magical theory as well as the usual psionic training.
Replaces: You lose your 1st-level bonus feat.
Benefit: You add Spellcraft to your class skill list, which allows you to attempt to convert an arcane spell into a power you can add to your repertoire. You treat the spell as a discipline power for the basis of learning it, and you must first succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell's level) and then a Psicraft check as per the normal rules of learning a discipline power (see page 154 of Complete Psionic). Each spell costs a certain number of power points to manifest. The higher the level of the spell, the more power points it costs. The table below describes each spell's cost."


So both sacrifice your "1st-level bonus feat." Neither says "one of your 1st-level bonus feats," nor does it mention the psicrystal. It is possible to argue that both qualify as bonus feats for purposes of ACFs (although I do not believe that is the standard interpretation). I also would say that it is a reasonable interpretation to say that the psicrystal affinity is a bonus feat - but not your "1st level bonus feat" for purposes of ACFs. This is supported by the language choice on the ACFs.

At the end, it seems up to the DM - but to say there is only one valid interpretation, to me at least, seems really silly.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It is clear that both feats are "bonus feats" - as a descriptor. At the same time, the class features are described as:

"Psicrystal: At 1st level, an erudite gains Psicrystal Affinity (EPH 49) as a bonus feat."

"Bonus Feats: An erudite gains a bonus feat at 1st level, 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level. This feat must be a psionic feat, a metapsionic feat, or a psionic item creation feat. These bonus feats are in addition to the feats that a character of any class gains every three levels (as shown on Table 3-2: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits, PH 22). An erudite is not limited to psionic feats, metapsionic feats, and psionic item creation feats when choosing these other feats."

So one feature is "Psicrystal," and one is "Bonus Feats"


Under the ACFs, it says:
"Favored Discipline - Unlike most erudites, you have a discipline that you favor above all others.
Replaces: You lose your 1st-level bonus feat.
Benefit: You choose a single discipline and all powers of that discipline, no matter what class list they are on, are considered general psion/wilder powers for purposes of learning."

and

"Convert Spell to Power - Your training has included basic magical theory as well as the usual psionic training.
Replaces: You lose your 1st-level bonus feat.
Benefit: You add Spellcraft to your class skill list, which allows you to attempt to convert an arcane spell into a power you can add to your repertoire. You treat the spell as a discipline power for the basis of learning it, and you must first succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell's level) and then a Psicraft check as per the normal rules of learning a discipline power (see page 154 of Complete Psionic). Each spell costs a certain number of power points to manifest. The higher the level of the spell, the more power points it costs. The table below describes each spell's cost."


So both sacrifice your "1st-level bonus feat." Neither says "one of your 1st-level bonus feats," nor does it mention the psicrystal. It is possible to argue that both qualify as bonus feats for purposes of ACFs (although I do not believe that is the standard interpretation). I also would say that it is a reasonable interpretation to say that the psicrystal affinity is a bonus feat - but not your "1st level bonus feat" for purposes of ACFs. This is supported by the language choice on the ACFs.

At the end, it seems up to the DM - but to say there is only one valid interpretation, to me at least, seems really silly.Considering both are explicitly 1st level bonus feats, your arguments are...rather dubious, I must say.

[Troacctid]

Considering both are explicitly 1st level bonus feats, your arguments are...rather dubious, I must say.
By your logic, a human could trade her racial bonus feat for it.

It's pretty clearly referring to the 1st level bonus feat from the "Bonus feats" ability. If it allowed you to trade away your psicrystal, it would say so.

[ExLibrisMortis]

By your logic, a human could trade her racial bonus feat for it.
I would say that you could not: the bonus feat must be in-class, because the ACF modifies the ability that grants the bonus feat (and adds a separate ability), creating a variant of the base erudite. All of this happens before you even pick the class, so considerations outside the class do not come into it. This is not the only way to treat ACFs, but I think it is a relatively sensible treatment.

Essentially, you take a level in "StP mantled erudite" and pick "human" for your race, then proceed with character creation, knowing you have no bonus feats from your class.


It's pretty clearly referring to the 1st level bonus feat from the "Bonus feats" ability. If it allowed you to trade away your psicrystal, it would say so.
It does. You can trade first-level bonus feats, and your psicrystal is a first-level bonus feat.

[Troacctid]

I would say that you could not: the bonus feat must be in-class, because the ACF modifies the ability that grants the bonus feat (and adds a separate ability), creating a variant of the base erudite.
Yes, it modifies a specific ability that grants a bonus feat: the "bonus feat" ability gained at 1st level. You can't just replace any old bonus feat that you happen to have for whatever reason.

[Exocist]

Don't people do this feat thing with Mantled Erudite to get StP and Mantled?

[schreier]

Don't people do this feat thing with Mantled Erudite to get StP and Mantled?

Is this a standard thing?

[Zanos]

Is this a standard thing?
It's not standard because magic mantle StP erudite is some strong cheddar, but I've used it.

[schreier]

It's not standard because magic mantle StP erudite is some strong cheddar, but I've used it.

With mantle? What do you (and everyone else) think about StP Erudite with telepathy?

[Troacctid]

With mantle? What do you (and everyone else) think about StP Erudite with telepathy?
Well you can't take the telepathy ACF because you're not a telepath, but nothing is stopping you from getting telepathy in some other way, I guess.

[Exocist]

With mantle? What do you (and everyone else) think about StP Erudite with telepathy?

Depends what you're using it for: If you're just there for flavour reasons (Psion with Telepathy = every Psionic ever), sure go ahead - I'd allow it. Telepathy 100ft isn't that useful (Well, no more than a metapsionic would be useful).

If you're using it to grab mindsight, well, then there might be issues.

EDIT: The Magic Mantle thingy makes "All Psionics count as their Arcane Equivalents" or something like that (It's basically just the Spell-to-Power transparency rule). But, because of the ambiguous phrasing, people use it for all sorts of cheddar cheese, including (But not limited to) - Single-Class Cerebremancer/Mind Mage, Using Psionics to grab Arcane PrCs, etc.