Questions about Dragonborn

[Neowulf]

so I've basically fallen head over heels in love with the Dragonborn Template for my characters. I've already designed one barbarian that uses it and plan to design a ToB class that does as well

so my questions about this are:

what is the cost of the scales to complete the ritual? it says you need those on top of 100 GP worth of materials
if a Raptoran gains lvl 5 then at lvl 6 takes the template, does the raptoran still gain the same flight bonus at lvl 10 to allow them to use their flight without tiring? I know that part of the Dragonborn template says that it doesn't take away alt forms of transportation, but I don't know much else about it
what happens if a character becomes a Dragonborn, but doesn't worship bahamut?
can a character with half-dragon template also take the dragonborn one?
would a non-humanoid who takes the Dragonborn template immediately count as humanoid? and if they had levels in class substitutions where they needed to be non-humanoid to gain them, would that affect them in any way
what happens to the naturally psionic races or the races with a natural essentia pool? I know they'd probably lose their psi-like abilities, but would they lose their pools of power points/essentia too?

these are the only ones that I can think of off the top of my head. I really love this template and would like to know more about it

[Kaje]

1. Dunno, prolly not much

2. If raptoran is of sufficient level to have a flight speed, they keep it.

3. Bah, meaningless fluff. Only reAl prereq is being no evil and 3 int

4. Yes. But You'd lose all the good stuff from being half Dragon and just keep the ability mods and type and movement modes and la.

5. Unclear. Dragon born is written poorly. Not even really a template. It's stupid. I would judge that everyone just keeps their own type.

6. They'd all lose they're pools. Thus you want to go with races who actually keep their good stuff, like Warforged.

[Darrin]

what is the cost of the scales to complete the ritual? it says you need those on top of 100 GP worth of materials



The cost of the scales is included in the 100 GP.




if a Raptoran gains lvl 5 then at lvl 6 takes the template, does the raptoran still gain the same flight bonus at lvl 10 to allow them to use their flight without tiring? I know that part of the Dragonborn template says that it doesn't take away alt forms of transportation, but I don't know much else about it



The raptoran wings and dragonborn wings are essentially the same ability. If you have both options on the same creature, then for the sake of simplicity just treat them as stacking but nearly identical effects. The raptoran wings improve at a faster pace, so at 10 HD they could fly without tiring instead of at 12 HD. At 12 HD, they would have both "fly without tiring abilities", but since they work the same way, it doesn't matter which one you "use".




what happens if a character becomes a Dragonborn, but doesn't worship bahamut?



Worshiping Bahamut isn't required to become dragonborn. It means you revere and respect good dragons, and dedicate yourself to the mission of protecting the world from the spawn of Tiamat. How exactly you do this is probably up to you and the DM to work out. It could just involve attacking any evil dragons whenever you encounter them. It may involve going on missions given to you by Bahamut (or one of his representatives).

There is no restriction on clerics or paladins becoming dragonborn, so worshiping another deity is allowed. Think of it as worshiping a deity but also serving a king, a bishop, or your landlord/employer. There may be conflicts of interest that pop up from time to time, but you're a hero, you should be able to work out the details somehow.




can a character with half-dragon template also take the dragonborn one?



Yes. There is no required type or preferred physiology, although the rules as written assume the creature going through the ritual is humanoid.





would a non-humanoid who takes the Dragonborn template immediately count as humanoid? and if they had levels in class substitutions where they needed to be non-humanoid to gain them, would that affect them in any way



No. By RAW, the ritual does not change your existing type or subtypes.




what happens to the naturally psionic races or the races with a natural essentia pool? I know they'd probably lose their psi-like abilities, but would they lose their pools of power points/essentia too?



They lose it, unless the psionic or soulmelding abilities are provided by a template or subtype.

[SangoProduction]

I'll throw my questions in here, if it doesn't derail the thread. It's about dragonborn, and their interaction with a certain race, the Gelatinous Cube. I'm using information found here http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/the-dragonborn since it is one of the only sources that actually has that "sidebar" when describing the template.

So, here's all that's kept the same:

Type, Subtype, and Race, Racial Hit Dice, Ability Modifiers, Size, Speed, Languages (though you gain draconic), Favored Class (though you gain fighter...because reasons), Level Adjustment

and, with exception to skills and feats, everything else is removed

And here's the Gelatinous Cube's list of racial traits, ignoring stuff that's obviously kept, like the Ooze type, and 15 speed, and obviously lost, like Acid Immunity.


Awoken (Ex): A gelatinous cube using this monster class has been granted sapience in a manner very similar to the awaken spell. It is not mindless like normal gelatinous cubes, and has the ability to speak by vibrating its body.

Cubism (Ex): Gelatinous cubes are, well, cubes. They cannot be tripped. In addition, they do not have hands or arms, and may have difficulty wielding objects as a result.

Awoken...lol...uh... So, does that mean bahamut saps the mindlessness back in to them? A sane person might read that the Ability modifiers are kept, and because it has abilities in Intelligence and Wisdom, it isn't mindless. However, Awaken is not neccesarily an ability modifier, but actually grants abilities in the first place. By the English reading, that's modifying abilities, but I'm not sure if that's the RAW reading. It can still mean that the Cube is now mute, I think?

Cubism....is lost? Becoming a dragonborn makes a Gelatinous Cube trippable? Howso? (Oddly enough, Cubism isn't lost when using a feat (basically meant exclusively for it) to become a humanoid so...eh. Logic mightn't be it's strong suit.). Oh wait, part of Cubism is that they don't have hands or arms. So, by removing that ability, they sprout arms? It...doesn't explain the tripping (except that the intent being that it means they have no limbs at all), but that's cool.

[Darrin]

Awoken...lol...uh... So, does that mean bahamut saps the mindlessness back in to them? A sane person might read that the Ability modifiers are kept, and because it has abilities in Intelligence and Wisdom, it isn't mindless. However, Awaken is not neccesarily an ability modifier, but actually grants abilities in the first place. By the English reading, that's modifying abilities, but I'm not sure if that's the RAW reading. It can still mean that the Cube is now mute, I think?


Mindless means they do not have a functional Int score. Dragonborn cannot take away your existing ability scores, so sapience would stay. Even if you lost Awoken, they still have their existing Int score, so... sure, fine, they lose Awoken, but functionally they still have sapience.

As far as the ability to speak, they keep it by RAW: "Dragonborn gain the
ability to speak Draconic upon their transformation but do not lose the ability to speak languages they already know." (emphasis added). That would include vibration-speech.



Cubism....is lost? Becoming a dragonborn makes a Gelatinous Cube trippable? Howso? (Oddly enough, Cubism isn't lost when using a feat (basically meant exclusively for it) to become a humanoid so...eh. Logic mightn't be it's strong suit.). Oh wait, part of Cubism is that they don't have hands or arms. So, by removing that ability, they sprout arms? It...doesn't explain the tripping (except that the intent being that it means they have no limbs at all), but that's cool.

Dragonborn allows them to grow both wings and a tail, so... arms and legs? That's not really clear. By RAW... yes, they would lose Cubism. If you want to fluff it... maybe they now "think" they have legs (because that's what dragons have), and so for some reason can be convinced they are tripped, which takes the same effort to convince themselves they are not tripped as it would to get back on their feet if they had any. But I don't really see how it would hurt anything if you just let them keep Cubism.

The other way you could look at it is just say "Cubism" is not a racial trait, it's a physical trait, and preserve the sanity of everyone by saying they keep it.

[SangoProduction]

Mindless means they do not have a functional Int score. Dragonborn cannot take away your existing ability scores, so sapience would stay. Even if you lost Awoken, they still have their existing Int score, so... sure, fine, they lose Awoken, but functionally they still have sapience.

As far as the ability to speak, they keep it by RAW: "Dragonborn gain the ability to speak Draconic upon their transformation but do not lose the ability to speak languages they already know." (emphasis added). That would include vibration-speech.

That works. Cool. Thanks



Dragonborn allows them to grow both wings and a tail, so... arms and legs? That's not really clear. By RAW... yes, they would lose Cubism. If you want to fluff it... maybe they now "think" they have legs (because that's what dragons have), and so for some reason can be convinced they are tripped, which takes the same effort to convince themselves they are not tripped as it would to get back on their feet if they had any. But I don't really see how it would hurt anything if you just let them keep Cubism.

The other way you could look at it is just say "Cubism" is not a racial trait, it's a physical trait, and preserve the sanity of everyone by saying they keep it.

lol. Yeah. That would probably be the most sane thing to do.

[Bohandas]

Dragon born is written poorly. Not even really a template. It's stupid.

I wholeheartedly agree

[LairdMaon]

Here's a couple of questions.

1. Warforged with half-minotaur template. What all would it lose due to taking dragonborn?

2. Same question, same scenario, add voidmind after half-minotaur.

My big thing is do they lose gained attacks. Though the rest would be good to know as well

[Draconium]

Here's a couple of questions.

1. Warforged with half-minotaur template. What all would it lose due to taking dragonborn?

2. Same question, same scenario, add voidmind after half-minotaur.

My big thing is do they lose gained attacks. Though the rest would be good to know as well

Well, first of all, you can't apply Half-Minotaur to a Warforged. Half-Minotaur requires the base creature to be a Giant, Humanoid, or Monstrous Humanoid. Warforged are Constructs [Living Constructs]. Assuming you found some way to finagle it, though... You would keep your type/subtype, RHD (you shouldn't have any), ability modifiers (modified by the -2 Dex/+2 Con of the Dragonborn), size, speed and movement modes, languages, and LA. You would lose everything else. Since natural attacks do not have an exception, it would seem you'd lose them as well.

[LairdMaon]

Well, first of all, you can't apply Half-Minotaur to a Warforged. Half-Minotaur requires the base creature to be a Giant, Humanoid, or Monstrous Humanoid. Warforged are Constructs [Living Constructs]. Assuming you found some way to finagle it, though... You would keep your type/subtype, RHD (you shouldn't have any), ability modifiers (modified by the -2 Dex/+2 Con of the Dragonborn), size, speed and movement modes, languages, and LA. You would lose everything else. Since natural attacks do not have an exception, it would seem you'd lose them as well.

I can't believe I missed that type situation so solidly and for so long.

Here's something of an equation to consider.
A = Base race
B = Template
Dragonborn refers to "original" racial stuff.
So, where does that "original" apply?
At A?
Or at A+B?

[Draconium]

I can't believe I missed that type situation so solidly and for so long.

Here's something of an equation to consider.
A = Base race
B = Template
Dragonborn refers to "original" racial stuff.
So, where does that "original" apply?
At A?
Or at A+B?

Usually, when it or other templates refer to "original" racial stuff, it means everything the creature had before you applied the template. So for your equation, assuming Dragonborn is "D", then
For A+D, A is the base creature
While for (A+B)+D, (A+B) is the base creature.

[LairdMaon]

Gotcha! Thanks