Is there a way for a non-dragon to become a true dragon?

[Neowulf]

I really want to know this. Is there a possible way for a non-dragon to become a true-dragon? Do they have to be a half-dragon? dragonblood? Kobold? shape change into a dragon? I'd really like to know

[Kelb_Panthera]

In b4 dragonwrought kobold discussion.

Other than the above (lets hope it only takes a couple pages this time) the only thing that comes quickly to mind is good old polymorph any object stacking (also slightly contentious). Going from nondragon to dragon is usually a pretty big deal. Taking it that step further into becoming a true dragon just isn't something that was ever deliberately incorporated in the rules.

[Neowulf]

In b4 dragonwrought kobold discussion.

Edit incoming

I've read it all b4
"Oh, the Kobold has dragon type, therefore it's a true dragon,"
"Oh, he's not on the list, so he's not a true dragon,"
"But he's got a 12-type life cycle,"
I've searched for that and I'm basically done with the dragonwrought discussion for my lifetime

what I'm doing right now is looking for a way to cheat my way into getting dragon's type so I can qalify for Dragon Ascendant. Right now all I can think to do is use Initiate of Draconic Mysteries in a clever way

[Kelb_Panthera]

Entering dragon ascendant? Whoof, that's a tall order for a creature that isn't born a true dragon.

Maybe something can be wrangled out of a changeling and the racial emulation feat with a transformational PrC like dragon disciple (but not dragon disciple)?

[Neowulf]

Entering dragon ascendant? Whoof, that's a tall order for a creature that isn't born a true dragon.

Maybe something can be wrangled out of a changeling and the racial emulation feat with a transformational PrC like dragon disciple (but not dragon disciple)?

only works on humanoids

[Neowulf]

Entering dragon ascendant? Whoof, that's a tall order for a creature that isn't born a true dragon.

Maybe something can be wrangled out of a changeling and the racial emulation feat with a transformational PrC like dragon disciple (but not dragon disciple)?

found one trick. I can technically use True Mind Switch to permanently swap minds with a true dragon
I'll be a dragon with psionics at that point onward. Maybe I'll stomp on the little man who's wondering why his breath weapon stopped working

[the_david]

Would Polymorph any Object work on a Kobold? They're both part of the animal kingdom and the reptile class, right? And then they would be related to dragons. You could even claim to be descended from the specific kind of dragon you intend to use for your build.

I think that might actually work. It might not work on other dragonborn as they don't have the reptillian subtype.

[Inevitability]

Savage Species has several rituals that allow for complete transformation into a new creature. It turns your actual race into the new species, so an Antimagic Field or Disjunction won't end it.

[Neowulf]

okay, legit non-pun pun way to gain divinity

lvl1, human sorcerer
feats:
draconic heritage & draconic knowledge

lvl 9 gain the ice assassin spell

lvl 10-18 become a psion telepath
invest heavily in charisma, diplomacy, and get either Dragonfriend or Dragonthrall based on what kind of dragon you want to be
find a true dragon that you'd like and use diplomacy check to show it a trick
cast ice assassin on it, immediately command it to stand down telepathically
then ask if it wants to see another trick
true mind switch on it, then the ice assassin, then back to the dragon

BOOM, you're a lvl 9 sorcerer/lvl 9 psion telepath inside the body of a true dragon with an icy version of yourself at your beck and call. tell the ice assassin to kill your old body for extra fun

after that, it's just the grind to get to +30 BAB & get all the required feats. get the ice assassin there, you can probably get a divine spark of 1

[Inevitability]

okay, legit non-pun pun way to gain divinity

lvl1, human sorcerer
feats:
draconic heritage & draconic knowledge

lvl 9 gain the ice assassin spell

lvl 10-18 become a psion telepath
invest heavily in charisma, diplomacy, and get either Dragonfriend or Dragonthrall based on what kind of dragon you want to be
find a true dragon that you'd like and use diplomacy check to show it a trick
cast ice assassin on it, immediately command it to stand down telepathically
then ask if it wants to see another trick
true mind switch on it, then the ice assassin, then back to the dragon

BOOM, you're a lvl 9 sorcerer/lvl 9 psion telepath inside the body of a true dragon with an icy version of yourself at your beck and call. tell the ice assassin to kill your old body for extra fun

after that, it's just the grind to get to +30 BAB & get all the required feats. get the ice assassin there, you can probably get a divine spark of 1

You don't get 9th-level spells/powers until you are level 17 (and in the case of the sorcerer, level 18). Your plan wouldn't work until level 35: even when theurging it'd probably take over 20 levels.

A Spell To Power Erudite, however, could be manifesting both Ice Assassin and True Mind Switch by level 17.

[Neowulf]

You don't get 9th-level spells/powers until you are level 17 (and in the case of the sorcerer, level 18). Your plan wouldn't work until level 35: even when theurging it'd probably take over 20 levels.

A Spell To Power Erudite, however, could be manifesting both Ice Assassin and True Mind Switch by level 17.

okay, lvl 1 sorcerer (you still need draconic heritage and knowledge) lvl 1-17 erudite. my bad, i forgot how magic worked for a bit there

[Crake]

okay, lvl 1 sorcerer (you still need draconic heritage and knowledge) lvl 1-17 erudite. my bad, i forgot how magic worked for a bit there

Why do you need draconic heritage and knowledge for this plan to work? Why not just mind switch and be done with it? Also, erudites can't actually learn true mind switch, they can only learn up to 8th level discipline powers, and true mind switch is telepath 9, so you would HAVE to be a psion telepath 17 to learn it. That said, you could just use a power stone I guess. What's the point of ice assassin in this whole shebang as well?

But if you're going to the insane levels of having 30+ bab, you may as well actually just become a proper dragon via a savage species ritual.

[Neowulf]

Why do you need draconic heritage and knowledge for this plan to work? Why not just mind switch and be done with it?
in order to become a dragon ascendant you need draconic knowledge, something only a first level sorcerer can get alongside heritage


Also, erudites can't actually learn true mind switch, they can only learn up to 8th level discipline powers, and true mind switch is telepath 9, so you would HAVE to be a psion telepath 17 to learn it. That said, you could just use a power stone I guess.
starting at lvl 17, Erudites learn 9th lvl powers. On top of that, he can learn discipline powers from another's repertoire, a power stone, or the Expanded Knowledge feat


What's the point of ice assassin in this whole shebang as well?
backup for if the mindswap doesn't work, so you can mindswitch again and have your old body killed without losing a lvl, and overall just a very powerful bodyguard


But if you're going to the insane levels of having 30+ bab, you may as well actually just become a proper dragon via a savage species ritual.
I don't know if there's one for that. I skimmed through the book & couldn't find one

[Echch]

I don't really think you "need" to know True Mind Switch. I think it would be more effective to just buy an item of True Mind Switch, use it on a Gold Dragon Wyrmling (just pay some adventurers for an egg and then flee the town after you've paid them) and wait 50 years (assuming you are a level 20 Sorcerer).

Which makes me wonder: How are you gonna advance in levels? You'd require insane amounts of XP to advance even a single level. Even if you were to TMS with a Very Young Silver Dragon and get an item of permanent Divine Power to have your 30 BaB at 20 HD, you'd still need to advance to level 42 (!!!) to advance the class.

Even when I tried it with a 3rd party book where I was barely able to cheese it to enter at level 13 (don't ask, it was far more pain than it was worth), I was STILL well in epic when I would have completed it.

[DrMotives]

I don't have Eberron stuff so I'm unfamiliar with exactly how changelings work, but a half-dragon changeling has the dragon type, which helps for polymorph & shapechange effects. Does that cut any leeway?

[Draconium]

in order to become a dragon ascendant you need draconic knowledge, something only a first level sorcerer can get alongside heritage

I would just like to point out that there are two completely separate feats that are named Draconic Knowledge. The one you're thinking of is from Dragon Magic. The other is from the Draconomicon (as is the Dragon Ascendant), and requires Int 19, any three Knowledge skills, and being a True Dragon. They do two completely different things, too - one gives you a bonus on Knowledge checks, the other gives you a Bardic Knowledge-esque ability. I suppose that technically, RAW means the later Dragon Magic feat supersedes the Draconomicon version, but common sense would say they're still two different feats.

[Troacctid]

The dragonshape spell turns you into a red dragon.

[Extra Anchovies]

Regarding True Mind Switch, would ye olde Astral Seed -> Mind Switch also work? If so it's a less costly method, although either one can be performed well before meeting the BAB +30 requirement becomes possible.

[Inevitability]

I don't have Eberron stuff so I'm unfamiliar with exactly how changelings work, but a half-dragon changeling has the dragon type, which helps for polymorph & shapechange effects. Does that cut any leeway?

Are you asking if half-dragon changelings can turn into dragons? Because they can't.