Players wants to become undead.

[Phantom's Eye]

The problems most DM come across in their campaigns is when a player wants to become a undead at some point. I should mention her back story and character.

She is playing an Lawful Neutral female half orc sorcerer that specializes in using clerical magic. (She managed to use some feat and bloodline powers to allow her to cast spells from the cleric spell list). She is an 'Arcane Magister'. Arcane Magister is not a class or anything but just more of a tittle in a guild. The guild in short was created to preserve the balance and quell tension between spell casters in general and of course non-spell casters (mostly humans) as some of the races don't like spell casters or just don't like them. (Can't say I blame them, as typically there is always a big bad spellcaster in the end).

In order to preserve order the spell casters created a guild/organization made of spell casters that work side by side with law enforcement. If spell casters wanted to be accepted among society, they would typically join the group and of course help with law enforcement slowly earning the people's trust again. Signing up requires members to be up front with their talents when it comes to the guild and official law enforcement, wear the symbol of the guild, obey the guild rules, and wear a cloak/robe of their specialized field in magic. (Gives the player a reason to wear bright sky blue cloaks.) (Blue for Mind/Illusion) (Red for Destructive) (White for Healing) (Green for Nature) (Purple for Necromancy)

Her character specialized in necromancy but not in a typically way as she wishes to use necromancy to help combat the undead and of course combat larger forces. She is party face or defacto leader of the group. As she is more of a roleplayer preferring to engaging in conversation before blowing up the bandits. (She would make a damn good bard.) Has a high code of honor. Is upfront and honest to people she is close to including npcs albeit cautious when it comes to explaining her spells/powers, and only kills if is forced to. In fact she has no problem killing, just prefers not to if the situation could be avoided.

Her Overall goal later on is to create a utopia where her kind and others could live in peace. As the world my players are basically like the Witcher series. Where everybody is afraid and skeptical of magic and non-human races. She personally witness how cruel humans could be, comparing them to demons....She though realizing this goal might take many years to create or to start, she had a weakness.

She was mortal. This goal could take thousands of years, perhaps more. She could die at any given chance before she could begin to shape her dream. She can be controlled. She decided to make her goal to become a undead, she will have the knowledge, power, and time to make her goal into reality.

Personally, I have no problem with it. As I'm always on the notion of saying yes to my players to most things. She has a good reason and such and of course she doesn't want to become a undead so she can go on a mass killing spree, screw over her party members, or the such. Infact i was thinking that when she became undead and started creating her kingdom, i would npc her character, she will roll up a new character, and work for the undead king. I would also create campaigns for her character so it wouldn't be a waste of time to her efforts of becoming an undead.

But how should i go about it is the better question. She says she really doesn't mind on the type of undead creature as long as it is not a vampire. Lich came to mind, with a few modifications i can bypass the whole sacrificing virgins and such. Perhaps a skeleton?

I guess the question would be, should i let them happen? How should i apply the undead template for a skeleton, lich, or whatever. As her character levels up will her states for being an undead will go up? How would you handle this whole situation.

Thanks, for reading!

--Phantom's Eye

[WarKitty]

System would really help here.

[Phantom's Eye]

System would really help here.

Ah sorry, i thought I've mention it before.

We are currently playing in homebrew pathfinder system.

[WarKitty]

Ah sorry, i thought I've mention it before.

We are currently playing in homebrew pathfinder system.

Ok, so the big thing is going to be adding a template without making it too powerful. If you're not opposed to homebrewing, I might break a template down into a "class" that she takes several levels in - so she can slowly gain undead traits as she levels up, rather than gaining them all at once. I think there's even a 3.5 class that does it.

Another option would be to look at the 3.5 template necropolitan.

[Phantom's Eye]

Ok, so the big thing is going to be adding a template without making it too powerful. If you're not opposed to homebrewing, I might break a template down into a "class" that she takes several levels in - so she can slowly gain undead traits as she levels up, rather than gaining them all at once. I think there's even a 3.5 class that does it.

Another option would be to look at the 3.5 template necropolitan.

I believe the dread necromancer from heroes of horror right? I haven't came across that exactly will gradually turn them into a undead. I know there is a lich prestigate class i think from homebrew but I'm hesitate to use it.

Necropolitan? I will check it out. Oh i should ask, does it require the player to be evil? Change their alignment.

I just want to get this right, as I never did something like this before.
--Phantom's Eye

[Pex]

Sounds like she wants to be a Lich. Liches are not inherently evil. Having played since 2E D&D, 5E D&D is the first edition I know of the explicitly calls out Liches must be evil because they have to consume souls or else devolve into a Demilich, which is considered a lesser form of a Lich as opposed to 3E/Pathfinder where it's a greater/epic level form. In Pathfinder the method in becoming a Lich is undefined on purpose for the DM to create to suit his campaign as need be. 3E listed spells involved like Magic Jar and Trap The Soul but said nothing of using them against others.

The question is do you want a PC Lich playing the campaign. The game mechanics matter as well as NPC reactions. Since the player is interested in the roleplaying goal, then you needn't be worried about a PC Lich at all. Becoming a Lich is the character's personal goal. Ideally it is achieved when the campaign is over and the character retires. The player continues with the character as she is now as normal. As DM determine a method of how to become Lich and how the character acquires the knowledge. Play the campaign as normal dispersing here and there things the PC must do/acquire to become a Lich. By a great coincidence, the last thing she needs to do involves defeating the Ultimate BBEG of the campaign. With the campaign ending, her character becomes a Lich for her happily ever after story.

[Klara Meison]

Personally, I don't like my characters becoming undead, for the simple reason that it makes them easier to mind control. While there are various ways to negate Dominate Person and such, I know of no spell or item that blocks Control/Command Undead, which is a real issue if your character is doing a lot of adventuring and delving into dungeons-sooner or later you will meet an enemy cleric with that feat.

If your player is simply looking into ways to become immortal, see this excellent post (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tq5h?Undead-PC#10) by an acquaintance of mine. It explains why Lich is generally a bad choice, how to make a moraly neutral philactery that is cheaper than what Lich template provides, and generally talks a lot about undead templates, their benefits and drawbacks.

If your player wants to become undead specifically, Juju Zombie and Mummy are generally considered to be the best choices.

Finally, turning a player into an undead creature may seem "overpowered" by some, but it's honestly not too bad. Benefits provided by the templates are either irrelevant or on the level of buffs that 9lv casters can dish out every day for every encounter. I'd say just allow your player to become an undead critter.

[Esprit15]

Safest thing is probably becoming a Lich, which if they end up becoming an NPC, the LA shouldn't be a problem. Nice turn resist (though take the feat for extra turn resistance and the cloak for it for a total of +12 or so turn resist), not easy to kill, and a classic for the mage who just has too much to do for one lifetime.

If they plan to become undead within your game and still playing for a while, you can also go with Necropolitan, which is basically just slapping the undead template on them for a fee.

[Phantom's Eye]

Safest thing is probably becoming a Lich, which if they end up becoming an NPC, the LA shouldn't be a problem. Nice turn resist (though take the feat for extra turn resistance and the cloak for it for a total of +12 or so turn resist), not easy to kill, and a classic for the mage who just has too much to do for one lifetime.

If they plan to become undead within your game and still playing for a while, you can also go with Necropolitan, which is basically just slapping the undead template on them for a fee.

Yah I figure it would be the best option for both of us, she will get her desire to become an undead with the Necropolitan template, while still roleplaying/playing within reason. Any now looking at it, if she would want to become a more powerful undead. She could invest in some prestige classes or basic classes that focuses on undead. Eventually turning her into lich at some point or at the very least a more powerful undead.

[Phantom's Eye]

Ah thanks for your all help, means a lot to me. ^^

Saved the advice page for the undead btw.
Great advice.

--Phantom's Eye

[Lord Torath]

2nd Edition had an Arch Lich (detailed in the Spelljammer accessory Lost Ships), which is a Good-aligned lich. I believe it even has rules on how to become one. You can give that a look, and adapt it to your campaign. Hide details of the rituals in various story-relevant locations and give her numerous hints as to where to find them.

[Segev]

While you can house-rule it, the poster who said Liches aren't automatically evil is wrong, at least in D&D and Pathfinder. The process of creating their phylactery involves an explicitly "unspeakably evil" act (or several).


D&D 3.5's Libris Mortis has the Necropolitan template, which is one way to become undead relatively painlessly...at least mechanically speaking. (The ritual of crucimigration is ludicrously painful-sounding.) No level adjustment, just a nice template to make you undead.

Ghost would work, too; has the benefit of being extremely hard to destroy even if beaten in combat, and fits with somebody who has an undying urge to complete a personal quest. The ghost-queen could be pretty impressive. Even could have progeny who are her ordained regents who grew up knowing "grandmother" will possess them for court functions.

If she's willing to give up her levels and her human half is strong enough to justify a ritual that only affects humans, she could arguably become an Elan. Not undead, but no maximum age limit.

A permanent magic item of magic jar would let her do the serial possession thing, too. (Kind-of like Karla from Record of the Lodoss War.)

[Pex]

While you can house-rule it, the poster who said Liches aren't automatically evil is wrong, at least in D&D and Pathfinder. The process of creating their phylactery involves an explicitly "unspeakably evil" act (or several).


D&D 3.5's Libris Mortis has the Necropolitan template, which is one way to become undead relatively painlessly...at least mechanically speaking. (The ritual of crucimigration is ludicrously painful-sounding.) No level adjustment, just a nice template to make you undead.

Ghost would work, too; has the benefit of being extremely hard to destroy even if beaten in combat, and fits with somebody who has an undying urge to complete a personal quest. The ghost-queen could be pretty impressive. Even could have progeny who are her ordained regents who grew up knowing "grandmother" will possess them for court functions.

If she's willing to give up her levels and her human half is strong enough to justify a ritual that only affects humans, she could arguably become an Elan. Not undead, but no maximum age limit.

A permanent magic item of magic jar would let her do the serial possession thing, too. (Kind-of like Karla from Record of the Lodoss War.)

The Pathfinder Lich says nothing of the sort that creating the phylactery requires an "unspeakably evil" act. If anything it says when applying the template the alignment is any evil, but that's game mechanics for NPCs in general. For a PC nothing is stated that is specifically evil that needs to be done, just that storing the soul is considered abhorrent. The d20 SRD for 3E does not say anything of an "unspeakably evil" act.

[illyahr]

While you can house-rule it, the poster who said Liches aren't automatically evil is wrong, at least in D&D and Pathfinder. The process of creating their phylactery involves an explicitly "unspeakably evil" act (or several).


D&D 3.5's Libris Mortis has the Necropolitan template, which is one way to become undead relatively painlessly...at least mechanically speaking. (The ritual of crucimigration is ludicrously painful-sounding.) No level adjustment, just a nice template to make you undead.

This is mostly true. The process involves a form of raise dead so you lose a level in the process. So, technically your level is adjusted. :smalltongue:

It doesn't provide any special abilities so it's a level lost for Undead traits, which is a very fair exchange.

[Segev]

The Pathfinder Lich says nothing of the sort that creating the phylactery requires an "unspeakably evil" act. If anything it says when applying the template the alignment is any evil, but that's game mechanics for NPCs in general. For a PC nothing is stated that is specifically evil that needs to be done, just that storing the soul is considered abhorrent. The d20 SRD for 3E does not say anything of an "unspeakably evil" act.

Yeah, the SRD strips out the flavor text about the process of making the phylactery being "unspeakably evil." Look it up in the Monster Manual if you have access.

Of course, if the GM wants it to be possible to have a non-evil lich, more power to you. It's not like it's broken to do so.

[Stealth Marmot]

There is an alternative to becoming undead. They could instead become a construct, or an outsider.

[IntelectPaladin]

Well, in pathfinder, our D.M. made me a Graveknight.
Surprisingly, I was still in control.
Here's the link to what one is:http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/graveknight.html
Since I was in control, the whole "EVIL EVIL EVIL" Tidbit didn't apply.
He never explained any of the mechanics behind it, at least, not specifically.
Storyline-wise, he said that I, a paladin, had absorbed darkness from the corpses of a lot of cultists when i went down.
But apparently my soul rejected it, forcing it into my armor thus sparking the effect.
Cheesy and dramatic? Yes, but it kept me in the game.
What was interesting is that the heavens said, since I'd kept on being good, I'd be allowed a spot in heaven when I died.
Our D.M. liked to attempt to psych us out with new concepts. The results were often interesting.
I hope this somehow helps!
Also, it might be noteworthy that the D.M. made the choice, not I.
It was certainly a surprise to the others. Who tried to kill me. I won.
Thank you for reading this, and I hope you have a better day!

[Bohandas]

Yeah, the SRD strips out the flavor text about the process of making the phylactery being "unspeakably evil." Look it up in the Monster Manual if you have access.

Probably involves human sacrifice like the process for creating a horcrux in the Harry Potter books

[Bohandas]

Becoming a ghost is probably your best bet. They don't experience any change in alignment.

[Karl Aegis]

Your player doesn't want to die before they can make their dream a reality, so their solution is to die before they make their dream a reality. I don't see how that makes any sense.

They also don't trust mortals enough to agree with their ideals enough to carry on their dream when they die. They want to become better than mortals so they can dictate what mortals should do. They've forgotten what it is to be mortal while they are still mortal. This arrogance is why people band together to destroy you. You think of yourself as someone who can dictate what mortals are and what they should be. Even if you were a deity of pure Good I would take up my axe to sever your ambitions from the mortal world.

[Vinyadan]

Could she become something like a Baelnorn?

[Segev]

Probably involves human sacrifice like the process for creating a horcrux in the Harry Potter books

Possibly. It's deliberately unspecified so that the players and DM can make up something horrific enough (but not so horrific that they're squicked out of playing).

I have my theory, and it's pretty horrifying to me, but it touches on hot buttons that I would dare characterize particular acts as "unspeakably evil," so I won't share here.

[Bohandas]

Your player doesn't want to die before they can make their dream a reality, so their solution is to die before they make their dream a reality.

...and thereby become a ghost

[Esprit15]

Your player doesn't want to die before they can make their dream a reality, so their solution is to die before they make their dream a reality. I don't see how that makes any sense.

They also don't trust mortals enough to agree with their ideals enough to carry on their dream when they die. They want to become better than mortals so they can dictate what mortals should do. They've forgotten what it is to be mortal while they are still mortal. This arrogance is why people band together to destroy you. You think of yourself as someone who can dictate what mortals are and what they should be. Even if you were a deity of pure Good I would take up my axe to sever your ambitions from the mortal world.

...and? I fail to see your point.

[Briton]

I had a similar issue in my current campaign, and i found a great document from Zenith games called "Undead Paragon Classes".

While it does cost $3, it has a section called "rotting corpses" and it gives a good outline of making a character undead. Lots of penalties, (like a -2 in everything except CON), but almost all the benefits of being undead (use CHA for HP, immune to poisons, don't need to breath, etc). I'd say give it a try. The PDF also has some cool feats for undead characters only (my personal favorite is Remove Hands so they act on their own).