Help gaining Immortality. 3.5 D&D.

[Metahuman1]

So, were building toward climax of my current IRL game. One of the things my character will be doing, in preparation for a massive massive massive scale boss battle against numerous high level enemy casters with home field advantage and lots of prep time and warning that were coming and what we can bring to bare on them, Multiple Demon Princes the only one I have 100% positive ID on to expect being Orcus, and at least 1 Elder Evil, Atropus, possibly more that I can't ID (and whom might have been homebrewd some.).


One of the very, very few surprises we will have is the possibility of interference from a Great Wrym Force dragon on out behalf/to come to our sides aid.

But for that to happen, I have to be able to persuade it, and offer it something worth while in exchange.



I have a 2 part pitch I'm working on. I have part one Ironed out, but due to story circumstance's, there is room for it to decide that it's just not worth it. Would have been for a younger version of itself, but not as it is now in it's twilight years.

So, to get around that, the second part. I want to offer a way to make it immortal, with out having to make it either a Deathless or an Undead, and with out diminishing it's power. By immortal, for the record, I mean unable to die from old age/natural causes. If it dies, it needs to be because something powerful made a deliberate choice to actively attack it and kill it and was strong enough to do so. That's fine I've no desire to promise against that. It's already powerful enough in setting that that's a low risk if the Elder Evils and demon princes are dealt with at this battle. This is about taking age and the like off the list of things that and end it so that it can enjoy the other part of the bargain long enough to be worth it's while.

I'm looking for a way to actually do this. Help me playground, your my only hope!


I am a 16th level Sorcerer/Mage of the Arcane Order/Red Wizard (DM house rules allow for this.). I have an Item Familiar and craft wondrous Item feat. One of my Item Familiar ability's will allow me to get the effect of the 10th level Circle Magic class feature by 20th level, which we will reach by the end of the game.

Pretty much all sources except Psionics are allowed. I can dedicate my 18th level feat to something if it will help/ be needed.

So, how can I make this happen?

[Zeruel]

To my knowledge at that level of power a dragon should simply be able to Wish himself younger every now and then (or actually Wish directly for immortality, it should be possible). You can pay for the exp cost by casting Wish yourself, that should be a good present for the dragon. If it doesn't please the dragon the DM could houserule that paying more exp (say 10000 points) you can grant him both immortality and a younger body.

But in the end there's very little a Great Wyrm Force Dragon can't do by himself...

[Exocist]

Make him a Half-Golem Great Wyrm Force Dragon.

It'll give him immunity to Magic and the Construct type (which makes him immortal). Significant boost in his power level that way.

Template can be found here. (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/halfgolem.shtml) I would suggest using Stone Half-Golem, because nothing overcomes it's Antimagic.

[Echch]

Wedded to History and Epic Destinies do that, if you can spare the feats for it (though it may be too late for that already...)

Class-wise, you could go full-on Cloud Anchorite or Green Star Adept (and I think Incantifier).

Another way would be to just hang out on a timeless plane.

[Exocist]

Wedded to History and Epic Destinies do that, if you can spare the feats for it (though it may be too late for that already...)

Class-wise, you could go full-on Cloud Anchorite or Green Star Adept (and I think Incantifier).

Another way would be to just hang out on a timeless plane.

Wedded to History doesn't, but Kiss of the Ages (Sor/Wiz 9, Dragon 354) actually will.

http://i.imgur.com/C0W31wU.png

http://i.imgur.com/97bXoay.png

Possibly just get a Scroll of it, you don't want to lose one of your Sorcerer spells known getting this spell.

[Echch]

Huh, must have misremembered that. Thanks for correcting me.

[Metahuman1]

Exocist: Doesn't it also mess up a bunch of his other stats? Like, taking away his Con score all together and making him functionally mindlessly evil?


Echch: What books are Cloud Anchorite and Incantifier found in?

[Inevitability]

Exocist: Doesn't it also mess up a bunch of his other stats? Like, taking away his Con score all together and making him functionally mindlessly evil?

Only if he fails to save, which I'm pretty sure he can only botch on a 1. Even then, rerolls are a thing, and we already know you've got all the spells you need (because great wyrm force dragon).

Still not sure why he needs a wizard to do it for him, but hey.

[Zanos]

Stasis Clone will create a duplicate of his current body, which will then fall into stasis and not age. If he dies, he will reawaken in the younger clone body. Presumably preserving a normal clone could be used to similar effect. He might have to commit suicide before dying of actual old age for this to work.

[Metahuman1]

Only if he fails to save, which I'm pretty sure he can only botch on a 1. Even then, rerolls are a thing, and we already know you've got all the spells you need (because great wyrm force dragon).

Still not sure why he needs a wizard to do it for him, but hey.


But if he passes the save, he doesn't get the immunity to Magic OR the Construct Traits. Meaning no agelessness.





Assumedly cause he never actually learned the relevant spell/feat for it, and it wasn't his particular field of study. Part of this is making it live forever, the other part is that I've got a way to offer it something to live for ever for. It's the combo of the two that sells it.

[Inevitability]

There's the Steal Life spell from BoVD, which drains ability scores and (on the night of a full moon) de-ages the caster a week for every point drained. Your average human would sustain a dragon for over a year.

Maybe give the dragon some item of the spell, as well as a Mindraped binder (ideally an elan). Every month, the dragon drains a single point from all the binder's scores, followed by the binder binding Naberius and recovering the lost points.

[Exocist]

But if he passes the save, he doesn't get the immunity to Magic OR the Construct Traits. Meaning no agelessness.

I think he still gets immunity to magic. It's separate from Construct traits.

But yes, I misread. If you pass you don't become a construct. I thought you got the construct type either way, it's just that you only became a mindless construct if you failed.

In that case, probably just use Kissed by the Ages. It should work to keep him alive provided the (extremely hard to break) magic item remains intact.

[Echch]

Echch: What books are Cloud Anchorite and Incantifier found in?

Cloud Anchorite is from Frostburn, while Incantifier is from Dragon Magazine 339.
And since you are a Dragon, Dragon Ascendant might do the job for you too... It's capstone is DR 0, which grants Immortality.

[Mr Adventurer]

If you're 16th level, I don't see how your character can hope to overcome the odds you've set out even as part of a full party.

On the other hand, if the Demon Princes and Elder Evils are being used as they were most recently written up, in the Elder Evils and Fiendish Codex books, then the Great Wyrm Force Dragon could probably solo the whole lot of them without trouble.

[Inevitability]

If you're 16th level, I don't see how your character can hope to overcome the odds you've set out even as part of a full party.

On the other hand, if the Demon Princes and Elder Evils are being used as they were most recently written up, in the Elder Evils and Fiendish Codex books, then the Great Wyrm Force Dragon could probably solo the whole lot of them without trouble.

Atropus was never actually written up, though I suppose the dragon could solo his aspect and send the moonlet running.

[Extra Anchovies]

Atropus was never actually written up, though I suppose the dragon could solo his aspect and send the moonlet running.

All we need to get rid of Atropus is a Hulking Hurler/Cancer Mage with Festering Anger and a fast-time plane. :smallwink:

[Inevitability]

All we need to get rid of Atropus is a Hulking Hurler/Cancer Mage with Festering Anger and a fast-time plane. :smallwink:

Atropus probably doesn't count as an object, though, so I guess you'd need Fling Enemy too.

[Bronk]

One of the very, very few surprises we will have is the possibility of interference from a Great Wrym Force dragon on out behalf/to come to our sides aid.

But for that to happen, I have to be able to persuade it, and offer it something worth while in exchange.

I want to offer a way to make it immortal

I'd say, first, find out what the force dragon actually wants, possibly with a divination, or maybe just asking it.

If it actually wants immortality, there are a number of ways to do it, although I agree that the real question is why wouldn't it have already taken care of it itself. It could have already used 'wish' to make itself immortal, but the only safe version of wish that could accomplish that is the Savage Species use that can change race. It might be too proud to do that! Maybe you can convince it to take the 12 levels of Dragon Ascendant to become a quasi deity, which would have the bonus of making it more powerful during your fight.

To get through all twelve levels of the class quickly enough to help, you could either find a way to retrain or reform some of its existing levels, or go on a quest to round up as many level boosting artifacts as you can and include those in your offer.

[MisterKaws]

Atropus probably doesn't count as an object, though, so I guess you'd need Fling Enemy too.

I think hurling the Tarrasque at him would be easier at that point, though.

Back to the topic, I don't think Great Wyrm Force Dragons should really need help to gain immortality, because Epic Spells, and last time I checked, they have access to at least 14th-level nonepic spells, so... yeah, they can just cast themselves into immortality.

I think your best bet would be to look for a ton(like, twice your WBL) of Riverine, and give it to the dragon. That, at least, might be worth more than something he can just get easily, since going to the bottom of the elemental plane of water is kind of annoying.

Anyway, Demon Princes and Elder Evils Aspects aren't much more than bugs to them, so they might help you for some spare change, but not for something they have already looked into and acquired already.

[Conradine]

Guys.

In your opinion, could a Limited Wish make the caster a single day younger?

[MisterKaws]

You know what? Let's go full pun-pun.

Grab the Blade of the Attractor(PlH p.61) and cut off the damn thing's age. It's an overdeity-class artifact, though, so good luck finding it.

[Echch]

You know what? Let's go full pun-pun.

Grab the Blade of the Attractor(PlH p.61) and cut off the damn thing's age. It's an overdeity-class artifact, though, so good luck finding it.

...Or, you know, dominate a Shaedling, have him make one as a Standard action and have it use said item on you.

[MisterKaws]

...Or, you know, dominate a Shaedling, have him make one as a Standard action and have it use said item on you.

Any mentions of item creation defaults to mundane-only except mentioned otherwise. I don't think Mechanus would stand by while you create another reality-defying sword either, so you'd have to deal with at least an army of ultra-advanced Quaruts and Varakhuts(they advance into 3x base HD, so good luck), in addition to the Maruts that would come because of the immortality bit.

Also, it's a Swift action.

[Echch]

Any mentions of item creation defaults to mundane-only except mentioned otherwise. I don't think Mechanus would stand by while you create another reality-defying sword either, so you'd have to deal with at least an army of ultra-advanced Quaruts and Varakhuts(they advance into 3x base HD, so good luck), in addition to the Maruts that would come because of the immortality bit.

It does? Where in the rules does it say that? Never heard of it before, so I'm curious.
Well... That and it would crush the only build that makes Entropomancer a good class.

[Extra Anchovies]

It does? Where in the rules does it say that? Never heard of it before, so I'm curious.
Well... That and it would crush the only build that makes Entropomancer a good class.

Well, the core of it is that 3.5 is an exception-based rules system, i.e. "It doesn't say I can't" doesn't mean you can. Items are, by default, not magical. If an effect creates one or more items and does not specify whether the items created are magical, then the items created are nonmagical.

There might be a case to be made that a Shaedling could use Shadow Gossamer create certain magic items if they possess the correct item creation feat and meet the caster level and spell prerequisites for the items, but that means diving into the semantics of what the words "generate", "craft", and "create" mean in the context of the Shadow Gossamer ability description.

Shadow Gossamer is also (ex), which I think means that its effects (the items created) aren't and can't be magical.

[Echch]

Well, the core of it is that 3.5 is an exception-based rules system, i.e. "It doesn't say I can't" doesn't mean you can. Items are, by default, not magical. If an effect creates one or more items and does not specify whether the items created are magical, then the items created are nonmagical.

There might be a case to be made that a Shaedling could use Shadow Gossamer create certain magic items if they possess the correct item creation feat and meet the caster level and spell prerequisites for the items, but that means diving into the semantics of what the words "generate", "craft", and "create" mean in the context of the Shadow Gossamer ability description.

Shadow Gossamer is also (ex), which I think means that its effects (the items created) aren't and can't be magical.

...Well, there goes the Entropomancer build :/

[Metahuman1]

There's the Steal Life spell from BoVD, which drains ability scores and (on the night of a full moon) de-ages the caster a week for every point drained. Your average human would sustain a dragon for over a year.

Maybe give the dragon some item of the spell, as well as a Mindraped binder (ideally an elan). Every month, the dragon drains a single point from all the binder's scores, followed by the binder binding Naberius and recovering the lost points.

What book is Elan in?

[Echch]

I believe it was the expanded psionics handbook.

[Draconium]

What book is Elan in?

Expanded Psionics Handbook and the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#elans).

[Metahuman1]

Psionics are banned.


And since I keep getting asked. It's not JUST about giving it immortality. I said for story reasons it hasn't had a reason to want it. I intend to reverse that problem at the same time by offering it 2 things. A reason to want immortality, and the immortality itself.

[MisterKaws]

Psionics are banned.


And since I keep getting asked. It's not JUST about giving it immortality. I said for story reasons it hasn't had a reason to want it. I intend to reverse that problem at the same time by offering it 2 things. A reason to want immortality, and the immortality itself.

Invent the Rubik's Cube, then make an arbitrarily high-polytope(oh, the advantages of dimension-distorting spells) version of an arbitrarily high-polyhedron version of the normal cube. With 10x10 faces. Maybe more.

Get a high enough number, and the dragon will probably waste a bit more than some eons at it, which is all you need. You'll be long dead and reincarnated a couple billions of times before it even manages to grasp how to finish the thing.

[Zanos]

Psionics are banned.


And since I keep getting asked. It's not JUST about giving it immortality. I said for story reasons it hasn't had a reason to want it. I intend to reverse that problem at the same time by offering it 2 things. A reason to want immortality, and the immortality itself.
Are you asking for us to suggest reasons for the dragon to want to live?

[Metahuman1]

Nope. Story relevance, I have the means to give it a reason to want to live forever already lined up.



What I need is a way to Iron Out getting it to get it the Immortality to go with it.








So, I kinda like that hiring a binder Idea. Are there any other races that have an endless lifespan/don't die of old age we can tap?

[Draconium]

Nope. Story relevance, I have the means to give it a reason to want to live forever already lined up.



What I need is a way to Iron Out getting it to get it the Immortality to go with it.








So, I kinda like that hiring a binder Idea. Are there any other races that have an endless lifespan/don't die of old age we can tap?

I think Warforged also don't age.

[Zanos]

I think Warforged also don't age.
I thought it was that no warforged were old enough to determine whether or not they could die from old age? They do specifically have at least one age category with stat adjustments, I believe.

[Metahuman1]

What about a Necropolitan? Maybe one that willingly lowers it's defenses against ability score drain/damage for the process?

[Exocist]

What about a Necropolitan? Maybe one that willingly lowers it's defenses against ability score drain/damage for the process?

Necropolitan makes it undead. I thought you said you didn't want to make it undead?

If Undeath is on the table, make it a Dracolich. Ask your DM to use the 2nd Edition Ritual to make it one. Your sorcerer should be able to do it.


First, the Mage must prepare phylactery for use as a host for the dragon's life force. The host must be a solid item of no less than 2,000GP in value and must not be able to decay.

....

The host is prepared by casting an enchantment spell on it while speaking the name of the Dragon. The item may resist the spell by successfully saving vs it, in which case the item cannot be used as the host.

...

Next, a special potion is prepared...

It must contain seven ingredients, among them, a Potion of Dragon Control, a Potion of Invulnerability and the Blood of a Vampire. The dragon must then drink the potion, the results are determined as follows.

...

If the potion works, the Dragon's spirit transfers to the host. The Mage must then touch the Host and cast a Magic Jar spell while speaking the name of the Dragon and touching the Corpse. The Corpse must fail a saving throw vs the spell for the spirit to successfully possess it. If it saves, that Corpse can never again be possessed by the Dracolich.

...

The procedure for possessing a new corpse is the same as described above, except the presence of the Mage is no longer required (Magic Jar is only required for the first possession). If the spirit possesses it's original body, it becomes a Dracolich again, if it possess another body, it becomes a Protodracolich and must again consume 1/10th of it's former body.

You can possess any reptilian corpse as a Dracolich, so long as it's within 90 feet of the host. The Dragon's own corpse gets a -10 to the saving throw though. Also, if he doesn't use his own body he becomes a Protodracolich and can't speak or cast spells until he eats 1/10th of his original body, at which point he becomes a real Dracolich again.

There's some other stuff there, but that's the gist of it. Someone correct me on anything I screwed up, my PDF copy of Encyclopaedia Magica has some parts missing so I had to take an estimate on to what it actually said.

EDIT: I've found a working copy, in the process of fixing errors.

[JeminiZero]

What about a Necropolitan? Maybe one that willingly lowers it's defenses against ability score drain/damage for the process?
I don't think you can lower immunity like that.

Also Steal Life only works on Humanoids. Most of the immortal races (Elan are aberrations, Killoren are fey, Warforged are constructs) are not humanoid. Necropolitan are undead.

You could try polymorph or PAO to make something else humanoid. But the DM may not let that fly.

[Metahuman1]

My sorcerer happens to be a necropolitan. I was thinking he'd make the item, take the bind vestige feat at 18th level, and offer himself up for it as the battery.




Is there a way to make Steal Life effect none humanoids? A spell perhaps? A feat?

What about a custom item to allow it to target none humanoids? How viable is that?

[JeminiZero]

That is going into homebrew/DM fiat territory. So, uh, ask your DM?

If you use yourself as the sacrifice, the DM might allow you to polymorph/shapechange yourself into a humanoid and fill the role. But it leads to questions like "if polymorphed creatures count, why can't I polymorph a summoned creature into a human and use that?"

Also, you can't get Naberius ability damage/drain healing via feats (otherwise hellfire warlocks would all take it). You need an actual level in binder or anima mage.

[Crake]

Any dragon that wants to become immortal need not look any further than the Dragon Ascendant prestige class, which literally turns a dragon into a quasi deity after 12 levels. It's 12th level ability is literally "Immortality". The dragon doesn't need your help at all for that, pssht, puny mortal.

[icefractal]

If you're using the Steal Life / Binder battery idea, then you don't need an immortal race ... you just need two of them. They can Steal Life on each-other and be immortal, while also providing the dragon with a source of immortality.

[Metahuman1]

That is going into homebrew/DM fiat territory. So, uh, ask your DM?

If you use yourself as the sacrifice, the DM might allow you to polymorph/shapechange yourself into a humanoid and fill the role. But it leads to questions like "if polymorphed creatures count, why can't I polymorph a summoned creature into a human and use that?"

Also, you can't get Naberius ability damage/drain healing via feats (otherwise hellfire warlocks would all take it). You need an actual level in binder or anima mage.

What about a cursed item, one with the curse that if an Undead character uses it they loose some of there undead immunity's and become susceptible to things they normally wouldn't be due to type while they do?



As for dragon Ascendant: It's a plan B.

[Inevitability]

What about a cursed item, one with the curse that if an Undead character uses it they loose some of there undead immunity's and become susceptible to things they normally wouldn't be due to type while they do?

Spark of Life does the first thing by removing drain immunity (and it's pretty easy to get as 3rd-level spell), but there's still the nonhumanoid issue.

I suggest Human Heritage on a human-descended necropolitian, combined with Spark of Life. Just don't make the SoL effect permanent: undead need to eat and drink if left affected for a long time.

[Metahuman1]

So, say, standard action activation and lasts for 1 round per activation?

[Inevitability]

So, say, standard action activation and lasts for 1 round per activation?

Pretty much.

The most straightforward way would probably be a Command Word item of Spark of Life with a single charge per day, at 5400 GP a piece. With the default cost-reduction cheese, you could bring it down to less than 4000, but that's not really necessary.