An alternative to specialist wizard...worth it?

[The Viscount]

Abyssal Specialist is an ACF from Drow of the Underdark (whether it requires you to be a Drow or not is not well established) that has you ban one (non-divination) school in order to "specialize" in spells that have the chaos, evil, darkness, and compulsion descriptors or subschool. Now this doesn't exactly seem very attractive, as those aren't great descriptors, even if you only ban one school. You can't also specialize on top of this, and while you gain all the benefits of specializing with these spells, you can't actually gain some of the other benefits of specializing, like entering Master Specialist, using Immediate Magic, or the UA variant school specializations (if you wanted that).

But here comes the chocolate to the peanut butter. Planar Wizard is an ACF from (where else) Planar Handbook. It costs your feat and 2 spells you would normally learn for free. The benefit is that you can give all of your spells an alignment descriptor (the same one for all spells). So if you take 10 levels wizard, you can treat all spells not from your banned school to be spells you specialized in. IF you take focused specialist, you ban 2 schools, but your extra spells are now any spell that isn't those schools, assuming that a banned school spell with the descriptor is still banned.

So now the question to the playground. Is 10 levels of wizard and not actually specializing worth it to "specialize" in virtually all spells? Is that versatility worth missing out on some of the fringe benefits of standard specialization?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Specialization doesn't actually do all that much. You're getting a +2 to spellcraft to learn spells of your chosen school, but the main benefit is simply the extra spell slot while only having to give up one school.
Abyssal Specialist is pretty much equivalent to a divination specialization with a different selection for your extra slot (and superior if you get the Spontaneous Divination ACF for obvious reasons).
You're likely to find something worthwhile to fill 1 slot per spell level with among the given descriptors no matter your campaign with either.

Planar Wizard is absolutely not worth it. There's pretty much never a mechanical reason to take more than 5 levels of wizard when you can take a PrC instead.
If you want all your spells to have an alignment descriptor there's Touch of the Blackened Soul and Mark of the Enlightened Soul (Dragon Magic), both of which are swift action spells and persistable.

[The Viscount]

The extra slot, while a "simple" benefit, seems a pretty large one nonetheless.

I selected planar wizard because it was a simple way to apply evil to all spells.

I suppose you could also get this with practical metamagic and uncanny forethought, I just liked the appeal of applying it to all spells.

[ryu]

I mean if all you want is extra slots get your self into elven generalist and slap domain wizard on that. Boom. Two extra spell slots per day, more spells known, and no real downside besides not being able to grab abrupt jaunt and hummingbird familiar.

[Troacctid]

In order for it to be worth it, all you need is one spell that you actually want at each spell level. Which shouldn't be too difficult.

Drawn from the Player's Handbook and Spell Compendium via the Spell Index (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/spells).

Level 1
Cause Fear
Distract
Distract Assailant
Hypnotism
Incite
Inhibit
Net of Shadows
Protection from Good
Protection from Law
Sleep
Summon Undead I

Level 2
Darkness
Daze Monster
Infernal Wound
Mechanus Mind
Mindless Rage
Phantasmal Assailants
Ray of Stupidity
Rebuke
Scare
Sting Ray
Summon Undead II
Tasha's Hideous Laughter
Touch of Idiocy
Veil of Shadow
Wall of Gloom

Level 3
Blacklight
Deep Slumber
Heroism
Hold Person
Incorporeal Enhancement
Magic Circle against Good
Magic Circle against Law
Mesmerizing Glare
Miser's Envy
Rage
Ray of Dizziness
Suggestion
Summon Undead III
Suppress Breath Weapon

Level 4
Animate Dead
Confusion
Contagion
Crushing Despair
Fear
Geas, Lesser
Phantasmal Killer
Rebuke, Greater
Scramble Portal
Summon Undead IV
Wall of Chaos
Wall of Evil

Level 5
Dominate Person
Feeblemind
Fiendform
Hold Monster
Mind Fog
Nightmare
Night's Caress
Spiritwall
Summon Undead V
Symbol of Pain
Symbol of Sleep
Wrack

Level 6
Aura of Terror
Contagion, Mass
Create Undead
Eyebite
Geas/Quest
Ghoul Gauntlet
Heroism, Greater
Imperious Glare
Revive Undead
Suggestion, Mass
Symbol of Fear

Level 7
Avasculate
Awaken Undead
Barghest's Feast
Energy Ebb
Evil Glare
Evil Glare
Hiss of Sleep
Hold Person, Mass
Insanity
Power Word Blind
Rebuke, Final
Sword of Darkness
Symbol of Stunning
Symphonic Nightmare
Transfix

Level 8
Antipathy
Avascular Mass
Binding
Blackfire
Create Greater Undead
Demand
Fierce Pride of the Beastlands
Flensing
Maddening Whispers
Otto's Irresistible Dance
Power Word Stun
Skeletal Guard
Symbol of Insanity
Sympathy
Veil of Undeath
Wrathful Castigation

Level 9
Abyssal Army
Dominate Monster
Hellish Horde
Hold Monster, Mass
Maw of Chaos
Plague of Undead
Power Word Kill
Programmed Amnesia
Vile Death
Weird

Of course, you can also take Spontaneous Divination and just sacrifice the extra slot to it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The extra slot, while a "simple" benefit, seems a pretty large one nonetheless.

I selected planar wizard because it was a simple way to apply evil to all spells.

I suppose you could also get this with practical metamagic and uncanny forethought, I just liked the appeal of applying it to all spells.

My point is that you're not getting all that much out of your investment.
Chaos, Evil, Darkness and Compulsion may not be the best descriptors ever, but if you can't find a way to make 1 spell per level with one of them useful per day you're just not trying.

So applying the Evil descriptor to all of your spells does almost nothing for you. It gives you a little more flexibility in what you put in that 1 slot per level, but that's not worth wasting 5 levels that could have been a PrC and a feat for.

There's a combo there with Chaotic Spell Recall (using chaotic, not evil obviously) but it's not a particularly strong one. Mostly since abyssal heritor feats aren't that good and Pearls of Power are cheap, so you have better stuff to spend your feats on.
There's another combo (using dragon magazine) for theurges using Aligned Theurgy to boost their CL, but they can't afford 10 wizard levels and rely on the spells i mentioned instead.

[Soranar]

Personally I find a focused specialist is just more useful despite banning another school. If the spells schools had been more balanced this wouldn't be the case but Conjuration and Transmutation are so dominant there's no real reason to focus on anything else.

The fact that the abyssal ''school'' doesn't cover most of those spells is what makes specializing in all of them somewhat sub par.

[The Viscount]

I feel like we're talking across each other here.

Abyssal Specialist itself is clearly not worth it. The advantage here would be planar wizard making all spells [evil] so that all spells count as spells you're specialized in, so you can fill 2 extra slots with anything you want via focused specialist (and also only banning 2 schools). This is what I'm asking about. I certainly recognize that being forced to sit in 10 levels of wizard is painful, but is it really not worth the slots and generalization? Or has the general agreements on 15 minute adventuring day really trivialized it all?

Also on further reflection I realized that neither corrupt spell+metamagic reducer nor Touch of the Blackened Soul are likely to properly work, since making them apply to the spells you're just about to learn at level up is highly iffy if not simply nonfunctional.

[Nifft]

One level of Tainted Scholar (from Heroes of Horror) also does the trick:



Tainted Spellcasting (Su): Rather than using a key ability score for spellcasting, you use your corruption and depravity scores. To cast a spell, you must have a depravity score at least equal to the spell's level. Your bonus spells are based on a number equal to your depravity score + 10, and saving throws against your spells have a DC of 10 + spell level + 1/2 your corruption score. For example, a tainted scholar with a depravity score of 3 would gain bonus spells as a wizard with an Intelligence score of 13 or a sorcerer with a Charisma score of 13.

You accumulate taint for casting your spells. Each time you cast an arcane spell, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + spell level) or increase your depravity score by 1. All arcane spells you cast are evil spells.

(Emphasis mine.)

[ryu]

I feel like we're talking across each other here.

Abyssal Specialist itself is clearly not worth it. The advantage here would be planar wizard making all spells [evil] so that all spells count as spells you're specialized in, so you can fill 2 extra slots with anything you want via focused specialist (and also only banning 2 schools). This is what I'm asking about. I certainly recognize that being forced to sit in 10 levels of wizard is painful, but is it really not worth the slots and generalization? Or has the general agreements on 15 minute adventuring day really trivialized it all?

Also on further reflection I realized that neither corrupt spell+metamagic reducer nor Touch of the Blackened Soul are likely to properly work, since making them apply to the spells you're just about to learn at level up is highly iffy if not simply nonfunctional.

It's not that extra slots don't have value. It's that you can get an equivalent amount without banning schools or taking base class ten levels. Elven generalist domain wizard. Done. Even assuming we houserule those two things to not work together it's a difference of one spell slot per day with elven generalist with no banned schools. Think I can't more than make up the difference with prestige class levels that just opened up?

[Soranar]

I missed the part about the planar wizard combo but consider this what prestige class would you be taking instead of more wizard levels?

in a low power game, it's not that bad of a choice to just take more wizard levels but delaying something truly powerful, like incantatrix, is a really steep cost to pay for an extra spell slot

the tainted scholar option is not as bad though the requirements do have a hefty roleplay cost

and the point of the focused specialist comment is that you would normally pick a conjuration or transmutation spell anyway , it doesn't matter if you get an extra spell slot to cast any spell when you can just take a regular ACF , not waste your time with planar wizard and still get the same effective benefit

[Venger]

The extra slot, while a "simple" benefit, seems a pretty large one nonetheless.

I selected planar wizard because it was a simple way to apply evil to all spells.

I suppose you could also get this with practical metamagic and uncanny forethought, I just liked the appeal of applying it to all spells.

if you did pick evil, you could grab sf(evil) for a +1 to all your DCs

[Fizban]

I feel like we're talking across each other here.

Abyssal Specialist itself is clearly not worth it.
Except you're wrong, because Abyssal Specialist is just fine. Almost all enchantment spells are compulsions (every one I checked from the PHB, including the buff Heroism), which means you're effectively specializing in enchantment+more, including blasting with fire for when you know enchantments won't cut it. The only way it's not "worth" it is if your default assumption is always focused specialist, in which case nothing will satisfy you. If generalist wizard and normal specialist wizard are valid choices, Abyssal Specialist is just as valid.

Is using something else to apply a descriptor in order to circumvent that worth it? Sure, if you're allowed. Is doing it with the 10th level planar substitution worth it? Depends on what prestige classes you're comparing to. If you're in a game where people expect focused specialist incantatrixes then probably not.

[Crake]

I question as to whether the two would stack as such, namely because the spells themselves still do not have the appropriate subtype, it's only when they're cast by the specific wizard in question that they do. What you COULD do though, is ban enchantment with abyssal specialist, since, noted, most of the good enchantment spells are compulsions anyway, so you give up the casting of one school, and gain the benefit of casting MOST of that school, plus more.

That said, even that is a bit iffy. In that circumstance, would you be able to cast a compulsion in ANY spell slot? Or only in your specialized school slot? A DM could rule either way to be honest.

[Troacctid]

That said, even that is a bit iffy. In that circumstance, would you be able to cast a compulsion in ANY spell slot? Or only in your specialized school slot? A DM could rule either way to be honest.
Neither. You cannot cast spells from a banned school, period.

Edit: Well, you can if you multiclass, but you can't if you're a single-classed specialist wizard.

[ImperatorV]

Ah, I've heard of this trick before. Don't use Planar Wizard to change your spells to [evil] - change them to [chaos]. Works just as well with Abyssal Specialist, and you can use Chaotic Spell Recall on all your spells. Plus Abyssal Specialist and Abyssal Heritage feats together makes for a very fluffy build, if you're into that sort of thing.

It won't beat out a lot of wizard builds but wizards are way strong already, might as well have fun with it.

[Crake]

Neither. You cannot cast spells from a banned school, period.

That's the thing though, the abyssal specialist wizard says to treat spells with those subschools as "being in a school of their own". Now the question arises, what happens if a spell is in two schools, your specialized school, and your banned school? I suppose it's the same dilemma as to whether you can cast those dual school spells if one of the schools is your banned school

Edit: According to the phb2, a specialist wizard cannot learn a dual school spell if either school is prohibited, so take that as you will. In this circumstance, even if you could get evil applied to all spells, you still would not be able to learn, prepare, or cast them, though you would, in essence, get a "free" spell slot, since you can cast any spell in any slot, though at the expense of a school of magic. Not sure if that's a worthwhile trade.

[Zanos]

There's an aligned wizard ACF in one of the issues of dragon magazine that does the same thing at level 1.

Combine with spell focus(evil), a soul tick, and i think one of the special divine focuses in CC for +1 DC, Empower, and +1 CL on all spells.

Not bad.

[Troacctid]

Oh, good call, you're right. That's from Dragon #357, page 88. Seems a lot more efficient than waiting until 10th level.

[gorfnab]

Ah, I've heard of this trick before. Don't use Planar Wizard to change your spells to [evil] - change them to [chaos]. Works just as well with Abyssal Specialist, and you can use Chaotic Spell Recall on all your spells. Plus Abyssal Specialist and Abyssal Heritage feats together makes for a very fluffy build, if you're into that sort of thing.

It won't beat out a lot of wizard builds but wizards are way strong already, might as well have fun with it.
Here is a version of it from the brilliantgameologist boards. Link (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7150)


Batman
Has a lot of spells per day with lots of options in what to cast
Chaotic Neutral Changling (has at least 13 wisdom)
1: Abyssal Specialist Wizard 1 - 2 flaws, Cloak Of The Obyrith, Chaotic Spell Recall, Focused Specialist (DR 2/Law, CSR 2)
2: Abyssal Specialist Wizard 2
3: Abyssal Specialist Wizard 3 - Demonic Skin. (DR 3/Law, CSR 2, NA +2)
4: Abyssal Specialist Wizard 4
5: Abyssal Specialist Wizard 5 - Cooperative Spell.
6: Abyssal Specialist Wizard 6 - Precognitive Visions. (DR 4/Law, CSR 3, NA +3)
7: Abyssal Specialist Wizard 7
8: Abyssal Specialist Wizard 8
9: Abyssal Specialist Wizard 9 - Keeper Of Forbidden Lore (DR 5/Law, CSR 3, NA +3)
10: Planar Abyssal Specialist Wizard 10 - Planar Spell Casting(chaos)
11: Mage of the Arcane Order 1
12: Mage of the Arcane Order 2 - Eyes of the Abyss, any metamagic feat. (DR 6/Law, CSR 4, NA +4)
13: Mage of the Arcane Order 3
14: Mage of the Arcane Order 4
15: Mage of the Arcane Order 5 - Empower Spell, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Maximize Spell, or Widen Spell (your choice).
16: Mage of the Arcane Order 6
17: Mage of the Arcane Order 7
18: Recaster 1 - Any Feat (suggest a metamagic drawn form the list above)
19: Recaster 2 (use the recaster's expanded knowledge to learn greater arcane fusion)
20: Recaster 3

Highlights
7-7/7/7/7/7/7/7/6/6+CSR spells per day with no banned spells. Yes, you have more than the sorcerer
DR 6/Law.
A base of +4 Natural Armor.
19/20 wizard casting.
Free Eschew Materials effect.
3/day Silent Spell or Still Spell at no cost or preparation.
3/day metamagic (see 15th level list above) at no cost or preparation.
3/day quicken at no cost or preparation.
You can cast Greater Arcane Fusion to cast any 7th & 4th level spell at once from any spellbook you own.
Spellpool 3/day which is spellstorage, only you pay within 24 hours after drawing a spell.
4/day Chaotic Spell Recall which is like an extra 4 spell slots of your highest spell known that you can spontaneously cast from with a swift action.

Named Batman due to this build's 'toolbelt' having everything you could ever need.

[Zanos]

I personally think CSR is a trap to get you to spend more feats on other abyssal heritor feats, which are pretty meh. Not a fan, myself.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I personally think CSR is a trap to get you to spend more feats on other abyssal heritor feats, which are pretty meh. Not a fan, myself.
This. On its own CSR is just a scaling Pearl of Power (with limited targets) for your highest spell level, at the cost of a feat.
To get more uses you have to spend your feats on crap like Demonic Skin or Eyes of the Abyss instead of Arcane Thesis, Quicken Spell or Uncanny Forethought. No thanks, i'd rather buy the pearl or a few scrolls of Mordenkainen's Lucubration.