Fixing Spells!

[Phantom's Eye]

Since I'm kind of in the zone, I was helping one of my players with her spell load out offering advice on what spells she should take from a roleplaying standpoint and of course combat standpoint. I was looking at most of the spells from the lower-tiered spell selection, 1-3 and was blown away.

Not because she had chosen any bad spells, but because some of the spells she chosen virtually became useless as you level on during the campaign or we just limited from the start. I understand that once you become more attune with spells, you will just switch this out in favor or better spells, or higher-tiered spells. But it shouldn't be that way. It should be the other way around. You want to use your high-level/costing spells as a last resort or when you fight a difficult enemy.

Of course some of the low-tiered spells could help you in a fight with powerful encounters, but for the most part are used out of combat. (Which is fine, not disputing that).

I just feel that low-tiered spells should get stronger or become more effective as you level up. As you become more attune with magic.

Take sleep for an example. Sleep is an amazing spell that puts 4HD worth of creatures that fail their save to sleep rendering them helpless. Great in the beginning, but as we move on in the campaign it becomes useless.

Color Spray is another example of a spell that is amazing in the beginning puts low level creatures in serve stun, I also think knocking them unconscious at low levels/2HD or less. While stunning a high hitdice creature for 1 round.

I'm sure there are more spells out there that you can list that are great in the beginning but begin to fade as the campaign moves forward. So I was thinking of a way to improve these spells without completely going over-board with it.

Problem is that it might not be balanced. Personally, I don't care too much about balancing issues but there are other players that are strict about maintaining balance. I'm on the fence most of the time.

I should explain what I've have planned to help spell casters in general for both players and Dungeon Masters/Monsters. (Besides modifying every spell....)

1. Spells that effect creature HD (At first, I thought about just removing the HD restriction, but that would make all spells overpowered. So I thought of something like this. ''Spells that have HD requirements improve as you spell caster becomes more powerful.'' If your sleep spell could only effect 4HD now it has the potential to increase its hitdice depending on your spellcaster level. For 3rd, spell casters can cast sleep to affect all creatures with 7HD (4 + Caster Level).

2. Spells that Summon Creatures (This one is kind of a mix bag, but i think it would be fair to summon creatures with CR 'Challenge Rating) equal to your caster level + depending on the level of the spell. So at third level you could summon creatures with a total CR of (4) at third level with summon monster 1. At 10th level, you could summon creatures with a total CR of (12) with monster. The trick is that the higher level you are the more powerful your summoned creature is. This is not counting the feats you could take. And if you don't want to take summon monster 2,3,4, and etc... You could just stick with summon monster 1 and summon creatures with a total CR of (11). There of course would be restricts on what you could summon. But for the most part you still have a could minion to rely on.

3. Creating undead (Again mix bag. I think if you create a creature you have power over it. Simple as that. Your creating it using matierals and your own magicka. You have power of it. When creating said undead creature you could only create a creature with challenge rating equal to your caster level. If you chose create greater undead spell, you gain a +5 bonus to create the undead creature. Around 18th level you could create an undead creature that is loyal to you with the CR of 18 without create greater undead, CR of 23 with Create Greater Undead. The thing is though, you could create any undead as long as the CR equal to your caster level. If you want to create multiple undead zombies you can as long as their total CR is equal to your Caster level.)

4. Spells that Deal Minimal Damage (This one is a lot easier to do, basically spells in general that deal damage, deals +1 damage equal to your caster level.)

5. Spells that have 1 round effects (This one needs fixing, but the best i could do is that the effects last an extra +1 round/1/2caster level. With color spray you could at least stun the boss for 2 rounds instead of 1 round and possibly more.)

For now that is really all i could think off right on top of my head. This may seem overpower and I'm incline to agree, but bare in mind I haven't implemented this house rule, and this would also effect the bad guys as well.

So I'm blowing off some steam while trying to find some way to improve spells in general. If there is a thread like this, or if you handle a similar situation, would you mind pointing me in the right direction. I would also like to read if you have any thoughts on this matter.

Thanks and sorry for this rant....

--Phantom's Eye

[zergling.exe]

Since I'm kind of in the zone, I was helping one of my players with her spell load out offering advice on what spells she should take from a roleplaying standpoint and of course combat standpoint. I was looking at most of the spells from the lower-tiered spell selection, 1-3 and was blown away.

Not because she had chosen any bad spells, but because some of the spells she chosen virtually became useless as you level on during the campaign or we just limited from the start. I understand that once you become more attune with spells, you will just switch this out in favor or better spells, or higher-tiered spells. But it shouldn't be that way. It should be the other way around. You want to use your high-level/costing spells as a last resort or when you fight a difficult enemy.

Of course some of the low-tiered spells could help you in a fight with powerful encounters, but for the most part are used out of combat. (Which is fine, not disputing that).

I just feel that low-tiered spells should get stronger or become more effective as you level up. As you become more attune with magic.

Take sleep for an example. Sleep is an amazing spell that puts 4HD worth of creatures that fail their save to sleep rendering them helpless. Great in the beginning, but as we move on in the campaign it becomes useless.

Color Spray is another example of a spell that is amazing in the beginning puts low level creatures in serve stun, I also think knocking them unconscious at low levels/2HD or less. While stunning a high hitdice creature for 1 round.

I'm sure there are more spells out there that you can list that are great in the beginning but begin to fade as the campaign moves forward. So I was thinking of a way to improve these spells without completely going over-board with it.

Problem is that it might not be balanced. Personally, I don't care too much about balancing issues but there are other players that are strict about maintaining balance. I'm on the fence most of the time.

I should explain what I've have planned to help spell casters in general for both players and Dungeon Masters/Monsters. (Besides modifying every spell....)

1. Spells that effect creature HD (At first, I thought about just removing the HD restriction, but that would make all spells overpowered. So I thought of something like this. ''Spells that have HD requirements improve as you spell caster becomes more powerful.'' If your sleep spell could only effect 4HD now it has the potential to increase its hitdice depending on your spellcaster level. For 3rd, spell casters can cast sleep to affect all creatures with 7HD (4 + Caster Level).

2. Spells that Summon Creatures (This one is kind of a mix bag, but i think it would be fair to summon creatures with CR 'Challenge Rating) equal to your caster level + depending on the level of the spell. So at third level you could summon creatures with a total CR of (4) at third level with summon monster 1. At 10th level, you could summon creatures with a total CR of (12) with monster. The trick is that the higher level you are the more powerful your summoned creature is. This is not counting the feats you could take. And if you don't want to take summon monster 2,3,4, and etc... You could just stick with summon monster 1 and summon creatures with a total CR of (11). There of course would be restricts on what you could summon. But for the most part you still have a could minion to rely on.

3. Creating undead (Again mix bag. I think if you create a creature you have power over it. Simple as that. Your creating it using matierals and your own magicka. You have power of it. When creating said undead creature you could only create a creature with challenge rating equal to your caster level. If you chose create greater undead spell, you gain a +5 bonus to create the undead creature. Around 18th level you could create an undead creature that is loyal to you with the CR of 18 without create greater undead, CR of 23 with Create Greater Undead. The thing is though, you could create any undead as long as the CR equal to your caster level. If you want to create multiple undead zombies you can as long as their total CR is equal to your Caster level.)

4. Spells that Deal Minimal Damage (This one is a lot easier to do, basically spells in general that deal damage, deals +1 damage equal to your caster level.)

5. Spells that have 1 round effects (This one needs fixing, but the best i could do is that the effects last an extra +1 round/1/2caster level. With color spray you could at least stun the boss for 2 rounds instead of 1 round and possibly more.)

For now that is really all i could think off right on top of my head. This may seem overpower and I'm incline to agree, but bare in mind I haven't implemented this house rule, and this would also effect the bad guys as well.

So I'm blowing off some steam while trying to find some way to improve spells in general. If there is a thread like this, or if you handle a similar situation, would you mind pointing me in the right direction. I would also like to read if you have any thoughts on this matter.

Thanks and sorry for this rant....

--Phantom's Eye

Use psionics, it does exactly this. Also the summon part... That's exactly what higher levels of summon spells do, give you more powerful creatures. Basically that would make it so that summon monster I never gets outdated and levels up into higher level summon monster spells. There would be no need to take summon monster II, III, etc.

edit: Looking at the summon monster tables, it looks like you would be making summon monster I more powerful than the later summon monster spells as written when you get to their level. Summon monster V gives you 1 hound archon, but your change would make summon monster I able to give 2 or 3 before 6th level spells.

[Phantom's Eye]

Use psionics, it does exactly this. Also the summon part... That's exactly what higher levels of summon spells do, give you more powerful creatures. Basically that would make it so that summon monster I never gets outdated and levels up into higher level summon monster spells. There would be no need to take summon monster II, III, etc.

edit: Looking at the summon monster tables, it looks like you would be making summon monster I more powerful than the later summon monster spells as written when you get to their level. Summon monster V gives you 1 hound archon, but your change would make summon monster I able to give 2 or 3 before 6th level spells.

Yah the summoning monster aspect, I kind of drop the ball on it. The way I was thinking is that summoning monster throughout the levels would still be reliable, the reason why you would choose the higher level summon monsters would increase the CR of monsters you wished to summon. If you cast a summon monster 7, around 14th level, you could summon a creature(s) with a total CR 21 or less. If you didn't at 14th level you could cast summon monster 1 at 14th level only able to summon creatures with a total CR of 15 or less. Which is still pretty good.

You can summon multiple creatures but the downside is that they would be extremely weak to a decree, as a dragon with a breathe weapon could potentially kill low-level summoned creatures.

Again overpowered, a bit. But I feel this is still within the realm of reason.

[DrMotives]

The reason you can't control all undead you create is to weaken a necromancer's incentive to just flood the world with animated dead. Sure, a high level character can slaughter a whole village, but the necromancer still has to pick and choose their undead they control. With the cap removed, they get OP minionmancy with very little investment on their part.

[Troacctid]

You could always port in the spellcasting system from 5e.

[Nifft]

You could always port in the spellcasting system from 5e.

Note that the 5e spellcasting system did a few things:

1/ No bonus slots for high ability score.

2/ Very few high-level slots (e.g. at most one 9th level slot per day).

3/ No free effect scaling, so everyone has to pay for enhanced effects exactly like a 3.5e Psion would.

4/ Concentration required for most buffs, so you can't just stack on ALL THE BUFFS and plow through with raw power alone.

= = =

All of those could be back-ported to 3.5e, but it would be a bunch of work to re-write all the spells... and at that point, I'd wonder why bother doing all that, instead of just playing 5e?

[Troacctid]

All of those could be back-ported to 3.5e, but it would be a bunch of work to re-write all the spells...
Would it, though? Just use the 5e version of every spell.

[Nifft]

Would it, though? Just use the 5e version of every spell.

... and now apply that statement to all the spells which are not yet in 5e.

Which brings you back to what I just said.

[Troacctid]

... and now apply that statement to all the spells which are not yet in 5e.
Don't use those spells. Problem solved. :smallcool:

[Nifft]

Don't use those spells. Problem solved. :smallcool:

Of course, in that vein, one should note that not using any spells also solves the problem. :cool:

[Troacctid]

Of course, in that vein, one should note that not using any spells also solves the problem. :cool:
Well, no, not really, because it doesn't accomplish the design goals.

[Nifft]

Well, no, not really, because it doesn't accomplish the design goals.

Accomplishing design goals means work, which was what I had pointed out, and which is what you had disagreed with.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to accomplish, nor what you're trying to argue for (or against), except that you seem to disagree with everything that I say.

I'd like to try to understand whatever it is you're saying, but you're not making it easy.

[Troacctid]

Take the spells and spell lists of the spellcasting classes. Replace them with the spells and spell lists from their 5e counterparts.
Replace cleric domains with the 5e ones.
Concentration works as it does in 5e.
Other spellcasting classes can get assigned a spell list from a 5e class if necessary.
Optional: Change the spells per day, cantrip mechanics, spell preparation mechanics, and/or multiclass spell slots to match 5e rules.
That's it, you're done.

[Phantom's Eye]

You could always port in the spellcasting system from 5e.

It depends on how 5E edition handles their spells in general. You know if they changed anything and if the spell system wouldn't break the 3.5/pathfinder spells. And if the entire group would be okay with it. But if it wouldn't break the system, players are cool with it, I would consider using the system.

[Phantom's Eye]

The reason you can't control all undead you create is to weaken a necromancer's incentive to just flood the world with animated dead. Sure, a high level character can slaughter a whole village, but the necromancer still has to pick and choose their undead they control. With the cap removed, they get OP minionmancy with very little investment on their part.

True.
I tried fixing this issue because I hated creating undead because I didn't have control over them. (Sounds evil yah)
Again drop the ball with this one. The reason why i would remove the cap as the player basically has to make a check every 24 hours to see if the intelligent undead wouldn't betray it's master. If failed, the undead if i remember just straight up tries killing its creator.

For the most part I would still keep this rule, that you could create an undead with it's CR on the same level or below and you wouldn't need to do the check. However, it CR is beyond your Caster Level then you need to make checks to keep your hold over it. You would just resort to using Summoning Monster to have a creature to come in, do it's job, and fades away.

The only thing that I would add, before you cast create undead spell , you will need to use the speak with undead spell. Speak with the undead, if your not playing an evil alignment undead, you could bargain with the undead, giving them a second chance, in exchange they serve you. Of course if they don't want to be brought back they will become hostile when you create them against their own will. If bargained with them, they will be created, and follow your orders. This would require dioplancy checks and good roleplaying on the non-evil aligned necromancers. While evil necromancers had to extremely cautious around the undead.

--Phantom's Eye

[EldritchWeaver]

Alternatively. use Spheres of Power. That system is geared to specialize casters, so spending more resources on a particular sphere increases options and no level 1 effect becomes useless just because you end up with in an inbuilt limit.