I made a psywar Jedi; was "Psychic warrior without natural weapons"

[Kaje]

Looking to create a psywar without using all the usual natural weapons powers. I know they're the best, but it just doesn't sit well with me on a psionic character. So what are the other options? What powers/feats would be best for a melee weapon using psychic warrior?

Looking at perhaps Kalashtar.
Inconstant Location seems to be a definite choice for a 6th level power.
Soulbound Weapon?
Perhaps adding in some ToB?
Psicrystals are weird. What can they do for me?

[Nifft]

Many of the powers that apply to natural weapons have regular weapon analogues:
- Weapon of Energy
- Vampiric Blade
- Truevenom Weapon
... etc.

[Kantolin]

Psychic Warriors make very good battlefield controllers. A tripping reach weapon and Expansion can net you 45ft of threat range once you can go huge, and even before that can be valuable.

Vigor is always useful.

Hustle is one of the more amazing powers in the game. If you're only using it in combat, you can consider Psionic Lion's charge instead, but I like the versatility of 'a move action' which can be used for a lot of things.

I like the short range teleports, too - they can help give you extra mobility in combat.

Two-weapon fighting Psywars bypass some of the main problems two-weapon fighting has natively, primarily via hustle. Strength of my Enemy is, in theory, a good mix for this. (I say in theory as I've never actually tried it). Either way, you can get some bonus dice if you want it via powers, and that's what makes two-weapon fighting happy.

[Telok]

Depending on your optimization level a simple choice of Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct), Psionic Body, and all other feats into Psionic Talent can do well. The PsiWar's biggest limitation is the low number of power points it has. At 10th level with an 16 Wis you have 42 pp, at 3 pp per Hustle that's 14 extra move actions before you dry up and assume you don't use them for anything else. Long duration buffs, flexible or multi-role powers, and maximizing the bang for your power points is key.

I've seen the huge PsiWar with the vampritic goliath great hammer and max Vigor shared with a psi crystal. His special trick was 'I can haz hit points' and he ran out of power every third fight. Very vulnerable to Dispel Magic and he couldn't do anything that wasn't hit point related.

There was also one who had lots of defences, a few utility powers, Deep Impact and Power Attack, and Hostile Empathic Transfer. Very conservative with power points, decent damage, high defences, rarely ran out of power. He died when he got arrogant and incautious in a lich's lair.

[Kaje]

So, I ended up just making a Jedi.

Kalashtar Passive Way Monk 2 / Force Mantle Psychic Warrior 12 / Sanctified Mind 6

Feats
1 - Hidden Talent (Psionic Charm)
1 - Iron Will
1 - Combat Expertise [Monk]
1 - Monastic Training [Flaw]
1 - Lightning Reflexes [Flaw]
2 - Improved Trip [Monk]
3 - Tashalatora
3 - Power Attack [Psychic Warrior]
6 - Improved Bull Rush
7 - Combat Reflexes [Psychic Warrior]
9 - Throw Anything
10 - Expanded Knowledge (Psionic Suggestion) [Psychic Warrior]
12 - Expanded Knowledge (Detect Hostile Intent)
13 - Cleave OR Leap Attack [Psychic Warrior]
15 - Shock Trooper
18 - Robilar’s Gambit

Powers
1 - Psionic Charm
3 - Stomp
4 - Force Screen
5 - Deflection Field
6 - Concussive Blast
7 - Psionic Levitate
8 - Hustle
9 - Telekinetic Force
10 - Telekinetic Boomerang
10 - Psionic Suggestion
11 -
12 - Telekinetic Maneuver
12 - Detect Hostile Intent
13 - Planar Apotheosis
14 - Psionic Freedom of Movement
16 - Greater Stomp
17 - Perfect Riposte
18 - Steadfast Perception
19 - Concussive Detonation
20 - Inconstant Location

[danielxcutter]

So, I ended up just making a Jedi.

Kalashtar Passive Way Monk 2 / Force Mantle Psychic Warrior 12 / Sanctified Mind 6

Feats
1 - Hidden Talent (Psionic Charm)
1 - Iron Will
1 - Combat Expertise [Monk]
1 - Monastic Training [Flaw]
1 - Lightning Reflexes [Flaw]
2 - Improved Trip [Monk]
3 - Tashalatora
3 - Power Attack [Psychic Warrior]
6 - Improved Bull Rush
7 - Combat Reflexes [Psychic Warrior]
9 - Throw Anything
10 - Expanded Knowledge (Psionic Suggestion) [Psychic Warrior]
12 - Expanded Knowledge (Detect Hostile Intent)
13 - Cleave OR Leap Attack [Psychic Warrior]
15 - Shock Trooper
18 - Robilar’s Gambit

Powers
1 - Psionic Charm
3 - Stomp
4 - Force Screen
5 - Deflection Field
6 - Concussive Blast
7 - Psionic Levitate
8 - Hustle
9 - Telekinetic Force
10 - Telekinetic Boomerang
10 - Psionic Suggestion
11 - Evade Burst
12 - Telekinetic Maneuver
12 - Detect Hostile Intent
13 - Planar Apotheosis
14 - Psionic Freedom of Movement
16 - Greater Stomp
17 - Perfect Riposte
18 - Steadfast Perception
19 - Concussive Detonation
20 - Inconstant Location

Ermmm... Evade Burst is only worth it if you have a high enough DEX since Psychic Warrior has bad Reflex Saves, and Planar Apotheosis kinda... sucks. Iron Will is also bad since both Monk and Psychic Warrior require pretty high WIS anyways which covers your bad Will Save, Telekinetic Maneuver isn't required if you've already got feats that can do that, Psionic Suggestion isn't that great for a Psychic Warrior at that level since unlike an Ardent you can't pump your WIS into the stratosphere(so the DCs aren't going to be really high), and Stomp and Greater Stomp overlap too much. Also, if you want a tripper/charger build, Expansion is almost required.

For more information from wiser people than me check out the Psychic Warrior Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?162701-3-5-The-Psychic-Warrior-Handbook), which probably has everything you'll need.

[Kaje]

Iron Will is a prereq for Sanctified Mind. Telekinetic Maneuver works in concert with the trip and bull rush feats. I don't want expansion on my psywar for the same reason I don't want natural weapons: it just feels weird. As for Suggestion... you got that I made a Jedi, right?

[danielxcutter]

Iron Will is a prereq for Sanctified Mind. Telekinetic Maneuver works in concert with the trip and bull rush feats. I don't want expansion on my psywar for the same reason I don't want natural weapons: it just feels weird. As for Suggestion... you got that I made a Jedi, right?

*facepalm* Oh right... Still, that handbook might be worth skimming at least... if you haven't already read it that is.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Don't take Lightning Reflexes, EK (psionic suggestion), EK (detect hostile intent) and Throw Anything. Take Leap Attack over Cleave. You definitely want expansion, strength of my enemy, and greater concealing amorpha.

Instead of those feats, either use the Psicarnum Infusion combo (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471353-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-Psycarnum-Warrior-(RadicalTaoist)) (which requires an adjustment of the Azure Talent feat, and is very cool and powerful), pick up astral construct and other great powers, or pick up another pp-conserving combo (synchronicity + Linked Power + Metapower + (Twin Power + Metapower + Psicrystal affinity + Psicrystal Containment +) Midnight Augmentation, also grants action advantage).

[Fizban]

Personally I prefer the half-giant with Improved Rock Throwing to go with my Telekinetic Boomerang (for some reason rocks fly better than everything else), but if you want to throw swords with Throw Anything that'll do. If you've already got Evasion from Monk you shouldn't need Evade Burst, but you might have traded Evasion for Spell Reflection so you can deflect blasters. Only thing I really disagree with is Concussive Detonation, that power is just offensively bad (effective -6 cl because screw you for wanting force event though it's force domain), but I'm guessing it's forced by the mantle ACF.

[Kaje]

Definitely right about Evade Burst. I chose that power back before I added monk to the build. I think I disagree with most other point though.

EDIT: I've edited the title with the new goal.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Check the soulbound weapon ACF. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) It gets you a very powerful scaling weapon, which you can fluff as a lightsaber.

[Nifft]

Heh.

Here's an idea.

Psiwar 5 / Thrallherd 10. Always call your thrall "Padwan".

To get in, use your 5th level Bonus Feat for Expanded Knowledge (Mindlink). Plus pay for the skill ranks.

It costs you one feat, but it nets you 2 good powers (Charm and Dominate), plus you get a Padwan.

[Kaje]

Soulbound weapon is great, but incompatible with mantled warrior, which I need for a lot of the tk powers.

[Troacctid]

Heh.

Here's an idea.

Psiwar 5 / Thrallherd 10. Always call your thrall "Padwan".

To get in, use your 5th level Bonus Feat for Expanded Knowledge (Mindlink). Plus pay for the skill ranks.

It costs you one feat, but it nets you 2 good powers (Charm and Dominate), plus you get a Padwan.

Probably more efficient to be Kalashtar, no?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Soulbound weapon is great, but incompatible with mantled warrior, which I need for a lot of the tk powers.Buy spellcasting services from some psions, one of which with access to the soul crystal power (from Magic of Incarnum) and psychic chirurgery. Buy a manifestation of soul crystal of psychic chirurgery, then buy the services of other psions that have the other powers you want to use psychic chirurgery to give you knowledge of all the powers you want.

Then use that bonus feat for a scaling super-weapon via the soulbound warrior ACF. And just as good, you have a bunch of extra powers known, to boot.

[Nifft]

Soulbound weapon is great, but incompatible with mantled warrior, which I need for a lot of the tk powers.
Another idea: at one point I made a Soulknife feat chain (basically replacing the whole awful base class with this feat chain for Psiwars, Slayers, and Warminds). It's mechanically quite similar to Improved Unarmed Strike, but looks much more Jedi, and is therefore objectively superior. I'll post them over in Homebrew and you (and your DM) can take a look.

Will link here when I'm done. EDIT: Here it is: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?504805-Nifft-s-Soulknife-as-Feats-PEACH


Probably more efficient to be Kalashtar, no?
It's usually a good idea to be a Kalashtar, when that race is available.

This is true even independent from the build that shall be known as The Padwanherd.

[wanderingbard]

I got a question about psionics that has creeped up by one of my players. He is more knowledgeable about psionics than I am and I'm curious if he is correct in this:

He says that a psionic character (any class) does NOT lose power points by sleeping to regain more power points. If the character had any remaining power points at the end of a day if he sleeps then is interrupted then he should still have those power points remaining so he can use them. I looked up the rules and it doesn't say that they lose them specifically in those words. It does say though that for a psionic character to regain power points they must clear their mind and get 8 hours of sleep (or whatever for elves and such).

I'm thinking that its like magic and he would lose those unspent power points. But the player is saying that it doesn't say that, where as in magic it DOES say they lose spell slots.

I know a DM is always the final arbiter of rules and I could just DM over power him but I want to be fair. So I got in touch with Wizards and they no longer give out rules about our edition (3.5) so ... here I am.

Here's what the SRD says about Psionics -
Psionic powers spring from sentient minds. Even an undead creature or a being that has no physical form can create a reserve of inner strength necessary to manifest powers, as long as it has an Intelligence score of at least 1. Vermin possessed of a hive mind ability are an exception to this rule.

and -
Daily Power Point Acquisition: To regain used daily power points, a psionic character must have a clear mind. To clear his mind, he must first sleep for 8 hours. The character does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, manifesting powers, skill use, conversation, or any other demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If his rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time he has to rest to clear his mind, and he must have at least 1 hour of rest immediately prior to regaining lost power points. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before regaining power points.

So whatcha think?

[digiman619]

Any "per day" abilities reset after they rest; I mean, you wouldn't let a barbarian save up rage or a bard save up bardic performance during downtime, would you?

[Nifft]

I got a question about psionics that has creeped up by one of my players. He is more knowledgeable about psionics than I am and I'm curious if he is correct in this:

He says that a psionic character (any class) does NOT lose power points by sleeping to regain more power points. If the character had any remaining power points at the end of a day if he sleeps then is interrupted then he should still have those power points remaining so he can use them. I looked up the rules and it doesn't say that they lose them specifically in those words. It does say though that for a psionic character to regain power points they must clear their mind and get 8 hours of sleep (or whatever for elves and such).

I'm thinking that its like magic and he would lose those unspent power points. But the player is saying that it doesn't say that, where as in magic it DOES say they lose spell slots.

I know a DM is always the final arbiter of rules and I could just DM over power him but I want to be fair. So I got in touch with Wizards and they no longer give out rules about our edition (3.5) so ... here I am.

Here's what the SRD says about Psionics -
Psionic powers spring from sentient minds. Even an undead creature or a being that has no physical form can create a reserve of inner strength necessary to manifest powers, as long as it has an Intelligence score of at least 1. Vermin possessed of a hive mind ability are an exception to this rule.

and -
Daily Power Point Acquisition: To regain used daily power points, a psionic character must have a clear mind. To clear his mind, he must first sleep for 8 hours. The character does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, manifesting powers, skill use, conversation, or any other demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If his rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time he has to rest to clear his mind, and he must have at least 1 hour of rest immediately prior to regaining lost power points. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before regaining power points.

So whatcha think?

When he wakes up, he has his maximum daily power points.

It doesn't matter if he "lost" his old ones and a full set of new ones were provided, or if he "kept" half of his old ones and the other half are new.

Power points don't have serial numbers on them.

He can't wake up with more than his maximum daily power points. The rest is trivia.

[Telok]

Generally you treat them like hit points in this case. If someone goes to sleep with 20/55 pp they either wake up 8 hours leter with 55/55 pp or something interrupts the rest time and they have 20/55 pp.

Edit: It's the same with spells. Sleeping doesn't wipe out prepared spells or unused spell slots. The caster just gets to reset them all after a rest.
Death now, that's different. Coming back from death loses half (really a 50% roll per) of spell slots and power points. This is important when Revenance and Revivify are in play.

[Psyren]

Edit: It's the same with spells. Sleeping doesn't wipe out prepared spells or unused spell slots. The caster just gets to reset them all after a rest.
Death now, that's different. Coming back from death loses half (really a 50% roll per) of spell slots and power points. This is important when Revenance and Revivify are in play.

Neither version of Revivify causes power or spell loss actually.

[Telok]

Neither version of Revivify causes power or spell loss actually.

My memory must be off. It's explicitly in the spells then? General is losing half your magic/power on return form death.

[Psyren]

My memory must be off. It's explicitly in the spells then? General is losing half your magic/power on return form death.

Yes, it's explicitly in the spell/power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicRevivify.htm).

[wanderingbard]

Its more about if the character's rest is interrupted. He didn't get the full 8 hours of rest would he wake up with 0 power points? His last known remaining power points?

The rules says he hasn't completed his rest and it was interrupted so he must continue to rest before getting the full amount back so that's out of the question.

But what about a wipe or a last know? it doesn't say. I guess they assumed you used them all but that doesn't always happen.

[Psyren]

My question is - why would you lose the unspent power points you went to bed with? You'd basically be punishing your player for trying to sleep.

[wanderingbard]

you lose unspent spells - and the rules specifically say you do.

But with psionics they didn't say you do or don't. Having a magic user lose something and a psion not means everyone would rather be a psion than a wizard. Basically same effects but way cooler cause you don't have to worry about this one thing.

[Psyren]

you lose unspent spells - and the rules specifically say you do.

That happens when you die, not merely when you rest. PHB 178:

"Prepared Spell Retention: Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in her mind as a nearly cast spell until she uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it or until she abandons it."

"Spell Selection and Preparation: Until she prepares spells from her spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that she already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used."

So the rules say - once you prepare a spell, it stays in your head indefinitely (rest or not) until something specifically removes it, like dying. Sleep/rest do not.



But with psionics they didn't say you do or don't. Having a magic user lose something and a psion not means everyone would rather be a psion than a wizard. Basically same effects but way cooler cause you don't have to worry about this one thing.

Very well, if you must have a citation - XPH pg. 63:

"Daily Power Point Acquisition: To regain used daily power points, a psionic character must have a clear mind. To clear his mind, he must first sleep for 8 hours. The character does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, manifesting powers, skill use, conversation, or any other demanding physical or mental task during the rest period."

Thus resting is not required to regain all of your daily points, only the ones you've actually used.

[wanderingbard]

Thank you. I really was in need of a citation. The player in question is a big rules guru and I must convince him of why I am ruling in a particular way or other. I myself am more of a fly by and get a game going kinda GM. But this seemed important enough to have impact on the game as a psyionic character might end up dead with out access to his power points once he slept... but this is not the case so now we can continue. Thank you again.

Anything like this happens again and I'll just send a psionic beholder to eat his ass.

[Fizban]

If someone is being a butt about the rules, the burden of proof is on them. He needs a citation before you're required to even look at it if you don't want to. That still leaves room to take things out of context or source non-primary and implied rules, but it's also quite likely to make him eat his words after looking it up.