Help picking feats for a Bard/Favored Soul Theurge

[Burmaz]

I know it's bold to put an 'optimization' tag on anything that has a Favored Soul in it, but hear me out, ok?

Basically, the build is Human Bard2/Favored Soul1/Mystic Theurge6/Sublime Chord1/Mystic Theurge X...

I prestige into the class at lvl 4 via the Versatile Spellcaster (1st) + Heighten Spell (3rd) method, and the character's mechanical purpose is to have loads of spells to cast, relying on quantity over quality.

My question is... aside from those two feats, and the always useful able learner (human feat), which other feats should I look into?

There are no flaws allowed, and cheap/free material components don't exist, nullifying the need for Eschew Materials.

Thanks in advance.:smallsmile:

[plinths]

I posted the below earlier, which also uses Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell, but it doesn't really work with with a Bard multiclass, because you'll be behind on spell levels.

What role are you trying to fill, exactly?

Fire & Ice (Favored Soul build)

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A friend of mine was recently forced to play a low-level 3.5e Favored Soul. The party needed a cleric, but clerics were banned because they're "too overpowered". Wizards were allowed, though.

Also, fluff requirements for prestige classes and feats were strictly enforced, and only evil characters could use [evil] spells. And no Dragon Magazine stuff.

Anyway, I designed this strategy for them.

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Feats:
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Versatile Spellcaster
Heighten Spell (useless until later)
-
free Weapon Focus at level 3
Fiery Burst
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Heighten Spell + Versatile Spellcaster lets you cast higher level spells than you have slots for.

That lets you qualify for Fiery Burst at level 3.
Then, at level 4, you can cast a level 3 Heightened Lava Missile, so you get 3d6 at-will Fiery Burst damage. You are now a better warlock.

At level 6, you can take the Summon Elemental reserve feat, because you can Heighten a Summon Monster to level 4 using Versatile Spellcaster.
That lets you always have a Small Earth Elemental for scouting, and gives you +1 summon duration.

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Spells:
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Lesser Vigor
Ice Slick
Protection from Evil
Shield of Faith
Longstrider
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Lava Missile (for Fiery Burst)
Conjure Ice Beast 2
Silence
Tyche's Touch
Divine Insight
Close Wounds
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Shivering Touch
Summon Monster 3
Dispel Magic / Blindsight / Downdraft / Mass Resist Energy, depending on the situation
-
Divine Power
Restoration
Freedom of Movement
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At levels 1 to 3, you have a weapon and armor, Ice Slick for combat, and Lesser Vigor for healing. Versatile Spellcaster gives you more level 1 spells. And at level 3, you get a free Weapon Focus.

That has to last you until level 4, when you get:
- a 3d6 Fiery Burst attack, with no attack roll or spell resistance
- Summon Ice Beast 2. Your monster of choice is usually a Hippogriff. If you really need AoE damage, you can get Wolves instead.

If you're fighting a caster, just cast Silence on a Hippogriff.
Tyche's Touch and Divine Insight are also very good, for better saves and skill checks respectively. They might be a higher priority than Silence, depending on what you need.

Note that summoning monsters doesn't break an Invisibility spell, and casting Silence on one only breaks Invisibility if an enemy is in the effect range when you cast it.

At level 5, you can take cold energy resistance, so you don't take damage from your summons.

At level 6, your Fiery Burst gets 4d6 dmg, and Shivering Touch can stop most monsters.

With Summon Monster 3, you'll probably want a Celestial Bison, or a Celestial Hippogriff if you need a flying creature. (The Ice Beast summons can never fly.)

(You need a Summon Monster spell to use the Summon Elemental feat, because Conjure Ice Beast is a Creation spell. If you want, you can take Summon Monster 1 and Conjure Ice Beast 3 instead.)

Blindsight is for invisible enemies, and Downdraft is for flying enemies. If you have a better way to deal with those, or nobody else can dispel, or you need to dispel a lot, then take Dispel Magic first.


Melodic Casting, Dragonfire Inspiration, and Song of the Heart are common picks for bard feats. Bards are already feat-dependent early on, so taking more feats to get into Mystic Theurge makes optimization hard.

[Grim Reader]

Not sure why you are doing Bard instead of Sorcerer? Sublime Chord recovers it a bit, but I would think Sorc is generally better?

[plinths]

Not sure why you are doing Bard instead of Sorcerer? Sublime Chord recovers it a bit, but I would think Sorc is generally better?

Maybe they just want to be a bard but with more spells?

If that's the case, I'd suggest:
Bard 1 / Wizard 6 / Sublime Chord 2 / Ultimate Magus 10

That gets you 9th level spells a level earlier than wizards, and you get a high caster level. And with Melodic Casting, you can be a Wizard while also buffing the party a little bit.

[Burmaz]

I posted the below earlier, which also uses Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell, but it doesn't really work with with a Bard multiclass, because you'll be behind on spell levels.

What role are you trying to fill, exactly?



Basically the bastard child of a support caster/buffer and a skill monkey. The character should be the dude who, if given enough time, gets the job done.

It's a game where we alternate between dungeon delving and intrigue, so I wanted a guy who is passably useful in both.


Not sure why you are doing Bard instead of Sorcerer? Sublime Chord recovers it a bit, but I would think Sorc is generally better?

I picked Bard over Sorc for the skill list, mostly. Sorc is awesome, but it's also primarily a blasting class, and I don't want to play a blaster.

Hope that clears things up a bit.

[Grim Reader]

Maybe they just want to be a bard but with more spells?

If that's the case, I'd suggest:
Bard 1 / Wizard 6 / Sublime Chord 2 / Ultimate Magus 10

That gets you 9th level spells a level earlier than wizards, and you get a high caster level. And with Melodic Casting, you can be a Wizard while also buffing the party a little bit.

I don't see how that gets you 9th level spells at level 16 ? 11th level is normally your first level of SC, unless you can get two "primary contact" feats at level 9. So your build would be something like Wizard (spont diviner variant) 6/ Ultimate Magus 3/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 2/Ultimate Magus 7. Getting you the ninths at level 18, 1 behind a Wizard.

[Burmaz]

Maybe they just want to be a bard but with more spells?

If that's the case, I'd suggest:
Bard 1 / Wizard 6 / Sublime Chord 2 / Ultimate Magus 10

That gets you 9th level spells a level earlier than wizards, and you get a high caster level. And with Melodic Casting, you can be a Wizard while also buffing the party a little bit.

It's not about the build - I'm aware of the weakness of a Bard/Fav.Soul Theurge, and I want to play one anyway.

What I'm consulting with y'all for are feats that work with such a build that aren't improved initiative or metamagic.

[Grim Reader]

Basically the bastard child of a support caster/buffer and a skill monkey. The character should be the dude who, if given enough time, gets the job done.

It's a game where we alternate between dungeon delving and intrigue, so I wanted a guy who is passably useful in both.

I picked Bard over Sorc for the skill list, mostly. Sorc is awesome, but it's also primarily a blasting class, and I don't want to play a blaster.

Hope that clears things up a bit.

I think you'll find the Sorcerers greater number of spells known and higher level spells available makes it more flexible than the Bard. High level spells beats skills

You may want to give the Beguiler a look though.

[plinths]

11th level is normally your first level of SC, unless you can get two "primary contact" feats at level 9.

Taking Bard as your first level gets you skill points and class skills.

[Grim Reader]

Taking Bard as your first level gets you skill points and class skills.

How do you get 13 ranks in arcana and listen before level 10 ? Cant have more than level +3. Far as I am aware, Primary Contact is the only way to break the cap.

[plinths]

How do you get 13 ranks in arcana and listen before level 10 ? Cant have more than level +3. Far as I am aware, Primary Contact is the only way to break the cap.

Apparently when I looked it up I found a homebrew version that only needs 10 ranks. Oops.

Nevermind then.

[bean illus]

Well to answer the question: I have some metamagic suggestions, but for a skill monkey/utility spammer(theurge) i could suggest Quick Reconnoiter from the Complete Adventurer iirc; listen and spot every round as a free action is a kinda neat feat and it comes with a +2 Init.

I like attack of opportunity feats if i have a high dex?

How about reserve feats? With so many extra spells you would 'always' have your reserve feat 'on'.

Your SAD and spontaneous, so... how about x-y feats? Cha to Hit, or to Reflex, AC, ... just about anything. Boost your Cha and get a +16 to everything, lol. With all those spells for utility though, i would be looking for a way to quicken the casting time.

Spell Penetration?

[Burmaz]

Well to answer the question: I have some metamagic suggestions, but for a skill monkey/utility spammer(theurge) i could suggest Quick Reconnoiter from the Complete Adventurer iirc; listen and spot every round as a free action is a kinda neat feat and it comes with a +2 Init.

I like attack of opportunity feats if i have a high dex?

How about reserve feats? With so many extra spells you would 'always' have your reserve feat 'on'.

Your SAD and spontaneous, so... how about x-y feats? Cha to Hit, or to Reflex, AC, ... just about anything. Boost your Cha and get a +16 to everything, lol. With all those spells for utility though, i would be looking for a way to quicken the casting time.

Spell Penetration?

Reserve feats, eh? That's Complete Mage, right? Any notable suggestions?

And those X to Y feats... there's a handbook for that, IIRC...

Also, thank you for actually answering the question instead of suggesting alternate builds :smallsmile:

[Troacctid]

The biggest problem you need to worry about is losing out on skill points. That's the main reason why you don't normally see bards going Mystic Theurge—it nerfs what is probably their biggest strength. You can get the skill list with Able Learner, sure, but with Mystic Theurge's 2 + Int you can't really use it. Really, try plotting out how you're gonna spend those points—usually, there just aren't enough of them to do everything you want to do. (Bard/Druid theurges have it waaaay easier in this regard.) So for starters, before anything else, you're going to need Nymph's Kiss.

I would also recommend Obtain Familiar and Celestial Familiar to get a coure eladrin familiar, as they are just very good.

And if your DM is open to homebrew, check out the prestige class in my sig.