Anyone else a bit perturbed?

[CliveStaples]

Doesn't "I'll get around to my job whenever I feel like it" smack a bit of unprofessionalism? I mean, if you're gonna do this as a job, not as a side-project, just-for-the-hell-of-it hobby, shouldn't you maintain professional standards?

I guess not =/

[Artega]

I'm sure I've been ninja'd to this by now, but read the news. Rich's health shouldn't be sacrificed for whatever reason. You only live once, and if he feels like a break, we have to live with it. I for one can completely understand what he's going through. My constitution rolls were poor at birth (not life breaking, but certainly not high) and you shouldn't start preaching about a lack of professionalism in a webcomic.

You can't take it with you.

[kpenguin]

He's an artist. You don't expect professionalism from an artist.

[Grey Watcher]

I would also bear in mind that he hasn't taken a vacation from this job in the, what, two years since he quit his previous job? Give the guy a break, it's not like a blew it off on a whim to go to the beach, he's got some medical stuff to deal with, and that's just tough to do, much less keep up with work on top of it.

[Duke of URL]

Maybe you should demand a full refund for the $0.00 you're paying to read the strip.

[psychoticbarber]

You can't take it with you.

Especially not a webcomic.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

No, Rich's professionalism has AMAZED me! He's done this strip, wrote a game world for Wizards (coming in second to Keith Baker's Ebberon), four books, two of which were completely new material, numerous articles for Dragon Magazine, created Artifacts for a Book of Artifacts, and created an Order of the Stick game, AND expantion! Oh, and several appearances at different Conventions, apparantly as a speaker, not just a booth sitter.

That's his resume' just off the top of my head. What's your resume' say?

[Artega]

Uh... actually its a term used to describe the pointlessness of amassing wealth over -living- life if you are going to die and be unable to take that with you.

Unless you got what I meant. :smallwink:

[estradling]

Why would I be perturbed? I've gotten everything I've paid for...

As for the webcomic and even the forums they are basically just ads to try to entice me to by the next product... (Which they do very well)

[atteSmythe]

As I see it (and others, especially Rich, may see it differently), his job is creating the merchandise that he sells to actually make a living. The online strip is both advertising and a preview of the next compilation. It's important, certainly, but it's not like we've paid a monthly fee to be here, and sometimes we get 12 comics a month, and sometimes only 10.

Heck, we've had a lot of double-length (and longer!) strips in the current arc...perhaps those should've been cut up to make a buffer, but I'd personally prefer that Rich tells the story however (and whenever) he deems best.

[ALOR]

well, i would assume you are perturbed because you enjoy his comic. so how proturbed would you be if he became so ill that he had to quit OotS all together?
It seems to me that if the giant has brought what he considers a very private matter out to his very public website that this illness is serious. So honestly the only thing that preturbs me is other individuals sense of entitlement to this free web comic and not to the health and well being of the Giant.
God knows i wish that OotS would update everyday, but not at the cost of anyones health. relax and look at it from his point of view. As you said this is his job and he wouldn't be taking a break unless he absolutly needed to.

[Daimbert]

Doesn't "I'll get around to my job whenever I feel like it" smack a bit of unprofessionalism? I mean, if you're gonna do this as a job, not as a side-project, just-for-the-hell-of-it hobby, shouldn't you maintain professional standards?

I guess not =/

The web comic isn't the product; the books that summarize the various comics and the game is the product. He could very well move from posting them first and then compiling them to just doing them in book form from the start, which would, of course, mean much longer wait times and a much greater cost to us. The fact that he isn't trying to do that seems more to his credit than detriment.

Let us not forget, however, that this is a two-way street. While we get to enjoy the comics for free, he also gets valuable feedback on the fly on where things should go next and how people are taking the comics, as well as what may need to be better explained with additional panels in the books. It's a lovely symbiotic relationship [grin].

I'll admit that not having a set update schedule is somewhat annoying for those -- like myself -- who want to read the comics and now have no idea when to check for them. Since I'm now posting on the forums, that's not a problem, since I check the forums far more often than I check the comic. If I wasn't, I'd probably just check once a week and read all that had been posted. I don't really care to get it the minute it comes out, and long exposure to television has trained me to expect to wait a week for the next advance in the plot [grin].

[Rama_Lei]

Rich is one of the best and most professional webcomic artists out there. Seriously.

[TreesOfDeath]

Its annoying and unprofessinal, but in this case Rich was sick, and its better than him rushing out a mediocore/poor comic or doing those filler type things that other webcomics do(which generally aren't funny).
For a free comic, its pretty dam awesome, and 3 large slices a week is a good deal.
The wait is a little annoying, but I can live with it. Oh and hey, Nodwick's been updated today, right?

[TiamatRoar]

Ye get what ye paid fer, so quit yer' whinin'!

[NerfTW]

I hate the phrase "smacks of".

Anytime it's used, the following analogy is either inaccurate or childish whining.

[Krytha]

Wow... I can't believe there are still people here who just come, demand teh phr33 comax and leave without knowing anything about, or the state of, the comic creator. Incredible.

Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!

[Thes Hunter]

No.


I am not in the least perturbed. Yes, this is a career, but you can not know how many hours a week he is spending on this and other projects, and people in company jobs get vacation and sick leave as well. This job just allows him the flexibility that he as a unique individual requires. If you got a problem with jonesing for the next comic to come out, just stop reading every week, and read it when the book comes out. No one is forcing you to sit around in anticipation of the next comic to come out.

[Sir_Norbert]

I'm a bit perturbed by the fact that you can be so callous, inconsiderate and selfish as to think you can *demand* that the Giant goes on making comics at whatever cost. He's given us all a lot of pleasure and improved our lives with his product, can't you at least give him some sympathy in return?

[Nathander]

As I see it (and others, especially Rich, may see it differently), his job is creating the merchandise that he sells to actually make a living. The online strip is both advertising and a preview of the next compilation. It's important, certainly, but it's not like we've paid a monthly fee to be here, and sometimes we get 12 comics a month, and sometimes only 10.

Heck, we've had a lot of double-length (and longer!) strips in the current arc...perhaps those should've been cut up to make a buffer, but I'd personally prefer that Rich tells the story however (and whenever) he deems best.

That really bests sums up how I feel about the situation. Also, your avatar might be one of the single greatest things I've ever seen.

Really, though, I think it's a bit harsh to say that Rich is failing to observe "professional practices" by taking time off due to the fact that he's been horribly ill. The fact that he's stated he'll still attempt to continue doing it as much as possibly before fully healing is, I think, even stretching it when it comes to his well-being and health. It can seem somewhat irritating but, really, it's for the best that he takes time off so there isn't any OoTS for a little while then, possibly, no OoTS ever again.

He also bothered to tell us the reasons why, so it's not as if he's simply blowing this off.

[xanin]

I'm happy to whine and gripe about not getting updates on books that aren't shipping on schedule that I've already paid for, but I draw the line at griping about random updates. I am totally NOT perturbed by it. In fact, I'm happy that Rich came out and said what he said. He's still delivering 2-3 strips per week, working on products for us to greedily buy up, etc. The only difference is now we don't cling to the silly notion of the comic updating on certain days at certain times - which honestly in the last few weeks it really hasn't anyways.

So lets review: We still get the same number of comics as before. And now we don't have to anxiously wait up half the night 3 times a week, instead we can just check back periodically. Oh yeah, and we don't pay for the online comic, so uh, lets see here, a few phrases come to mind - "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" and "beggars can't be choosers" - among them.

[Friv]

I'm a bit perturbed by the fact that you can be so callous, inconsiderate and selfish as to think you can *demand* that the Giant goes on making comics at whatever cost. He's given us all a lot of pleasure and improved our lives with his product, can't you at least give him some sympathy in return?

I second this post. It sums up my feelings pretty much precisely.

Besides, as mentioned previously, EVERYONE needs vacations from time to time. Especially for health issues.

[CliveStaples]

I'm a bit perturbed by the fact that you can be so callous, inconsiderate and selfish as to think you can *demand* that the Giant goes on making comics at whatever cost. He's given us all a lot of pleasure and improved our lives with his product, can't you at least give him some sympathy in return?

Callous, inconsiderate, and selfish to "demand" that Mr. Burlew actually produce a product?

First off, I'm not demanding anything. I don't have a right to enjoy the product of Mr. Burlew's artistic labor. That's not what this is about, so stop preaching at me for sins I haven't committed. It's called the Straw Man fallacy, and you should really stop it.

Second, sympathy isn't the issue. I do sympathize with Mr. Burlew regarding his health issues. I do realize that health comes first. What you and the other contributing members of this thread seem to miss is that I'm questioning his business/work ethic, not his priorities.


Anytime it's used, the following analogy is either inaccurate or childish whining.

I hate people who simply state conclusions and make implications without giving reasons or evidence.


Rich is one of the best and most professional webcomic artists out there. Seriously.

How many updates has he missed?


I'm sure I've been ninja'd to this by now, but read the news. Rich's health shouldn't be sacrificed for whatever reason. You only live once, and if he feels like a break, we have to live with it. I for one can completely understand what he's going through. My constitution rolls were poor at birth (not life breaking, but certainly not high) and you shouldn't start preaching about a lack of professionalism in a webcomic.

You can't take it with you.

/sigh

If he needs to stop or delay production on his webcomic for health reasons, that's fine. But if you had an employee who came in to work as infrequently as Mr. Burlew does, wouldn't you perhaps think that the employee was not a good worker? He might be a good, wise person--putting health above work--but that doesn't mean that you have to think of him as a great employee/laborer.


The web comic isn't the product; the books that summarize the various comics and the game is the product. He could very well move from posting them first and then compiling them to just doing them in book form from the start, which would, of course, mean much longer wait times and a much greater cost to us. The fact that he isn't trying to do that seems more to his credit than detriment.

Actually, they're both products. Mr. Burlew simply provides the webcomic free of charge to you (given proper internet access, etc.).


Let us not forget, however, that this is a two-way street. While we get to enjoy the comics for free, he also gets valuable feedback on the fly on where things should go next and how people are taking the comics, as well as what may need to be better explained with additional panels in the books. It's a lovely symbiotic relationship [grin].

That's just good business. You have to provide what the consumer wants, or else you can't sell it to them.


I'll admit that not having a set update schedule is somewhat annoying for those -- like myself -- who want to read the comics and now have no idea when to check for them. Since I'm now posting on the forums, that's not a problem, since I check the forums far more often than I check the comic. If I wasn't, I'd probably just check once a week and read all that had been posted. I don't really care to get it the minute it comes out, and long exposure to television has trained me to expect to wait a week for the next advance in the plot [grin].

It's not about that.

Mr. Burlew has chosen to produce this webcomic and its various paraphinalia as his main vocation. It is now his profession. What happens to authors who can't meet their deadlines?

Now, let's take a look at Calvin and Hobbes. Mr. Watterson eventually stopped producing newspaper comic strips exactly because of the deadlines (among other reasons), and went to producing books. Which is a fine alternative, in my opinion.

If Mr. Burlew, like Mr. Watterson, finds weekly/daily deadlines so hassling, simply saying "no deadlines, completely random production of strips" seems vaguely inappropriate, doesn't it?


Wow... I can't believe there are still people here who just come, demand teh phr33 comax and leave without knowing anything about, or the state of, the comic creator. Incredible.

I would happily pay a weekly/montly fee for regular comics.

I can't believe there are still people here who just come, draw wildly inaccurate conclusions about the positions held by other members, and regale them with high-minded moralistic sermons.

Oh, that's a lie, I totally believe there are still people like that.


Maybe you should demand a full refund for the $0.00 you're paying to read the strip.

Oh, my, you mean I don't pay to see this webcomic? What an amazingly probative observation, Mr. Holmes!

The price you mention was set by Mr. Burlew, not me. If he wants to give away his artistic products at no charge, I'm not going to argue with him about the price.


He's an artist. You don't expect professionalism from an artist.

He is a professional artist. He does this for a living. All consumers of his products should expect some level of professionalism from him--and he has, until recently, been among the most regular updaters on the web.


I would also bear in mind that he hasn't taken a vacation from this job in the, what, two years since he quit his previous job? Give the guy a break, it's not like a blew it off on a whim to go to the beach, he's got some medical stuff to deal with, and that's just tough to do, much less keep up with work on top of it.

Three webcomics a week? My father has worked from 5 am to 5 pm every weekday for the last thirty years. Thinking up three webcomics a week and illustrating them as stick figures doesn't seem like an insurmountable task.

If health reasons preclude such production, then clearly such production isn't an appropriate choice of profession, no?

[CliveStaples]

I second this post. It sums up my feelings pretty much precisely.

Besides, as mentioned previously, EVERYONE needs vacations from time to time. Especially for health issues.

Ah, another person jumping on the "how dare you question our Glorious Leader" bandwagon.

I am not lambasting Mr. Burlew for taking a vacation. That's not what he's doing. If he was, he'd say something like "For a certain amount of time, I will be updating the webcomic less frequently. After that amount of time, updates will resume as normal."

Instead, he's said "Updates are now entirely random for the forseeable future. Please keep giving me money."

Health, of course, is the foremost concern of everybody on the planet. If Mr. Burlew's health stops him from being able to update regularly, then I fear he will not be able to maintain OOTS as his main vocation. And if his health concerns are grave enough to keep him from producing three stick figure cartoons a week, then I'm not sure what manner of profession he can engage in. Certainly not any blue-collar or white-collar job.

The only remedy I see, if his medical concerns persist, is for him to hire an assistant to facilitate illustration.


He also bothered to tell us the reasons why, so it's not as if he's simply blowing this off.

Maybe I'm too cynical, but when someone cites vague reasons like "health concerns", "medical condition", "family issues", as a reason for not working, I tend to doubt that they're being honest. I wouldn't be able to keep my job if I called in twice a week citing "health concerns" for not showing up.

[Gundato]

I like your "I would fire him" argument. But see, this isn't so much a case of someone coming in to fill out TPS reports.

Think of it instead as one of those subway violinists. Are you really going to whine and complain if the guy who plays for loose change and what not isn't there sometimes?

[factotum]

Er...please keep giving him money how, exactly? If he produces fewer strips it takes longer to produce the next book and he'll earn less money, this much is true, but how updating the FREE webcomic on a random rather than fixed basis means we're paying him for nothing is a little beyond me.

[Gabriel]

In answer to the title, no I'm not perturbed at all. It is however good that you are giving reasons. However, I must disagree with your points. Mr. Berlow is employed by himself. Thusly, he has no one, but us, the viewing public, to demand professionilism on him. And as we do not give anything directly to Mr. Berlow, we can't expect him to give us anything. But he does. So, it might not be on a regular basis, but what we get when it's coming is of one of the best quality I've ever seen.

The latest comic, which is the first in the 'random update' schedual, is of as good as quality as any other of the strips so far. It even includes a twist I bet not many people expected. So despite his health, he has delivered what can only be compared to having a late baby.

My own health is like pendulum, so I have to take time off and rest. We are lucky that Mr. Berlow has not taken time off earlier, or cancelled the comic. He gave his reasons, so that is what we must accept. He is not being a bad workman, but simply thinking of his health. Would you rather work himself to the bone, with failing quality?

[CliveStaples]

I like your "I would fire him" argument. But see, this isn't so much a case of someone coming in to fill out TPS reports.

Think of it instead as one of those subway violinists. Are you really going to whine and complain if the guy who plays for loose change and what not isn't there sometimes?

How high is your dodge bonus to AC? Because you keep missing the thrust of my arguments.

Ba-dum *tsh*

Seriously, though, how do you square away your comparison of Mr. Burlew to subway violinists with such grandiose claims as "he's the most professional webcomic artist on the internet". I mean, you can say lots of things about the subway violinists, but consummate professionals is not a typical descriptor.

Rich isn't playing for loose change. He's doing this as his job. If those subway violinists play as their main source of income, then they should bust their ass doing it. That's called a work ethic.

[CliveStaples]

Er...please keep giving him money how, exactly? If he produces fewer strips it takes longer to produce the next book and he'll earn less money, this much is true, but how updating the FREE webcomic on a random rather than fixed basis means we're paying him for nothing is a little beyond me.

If he has health problems, then he has medical bills. The graver his health concerns, the bigger the bills. If he can't produce a webcomic regularly, how can he produce other artistic products that could serve as a source of income for paying the medical bills?


In answer to the title, no I'm not perturbed at all. It is however good that you are giving reasons. However, I must disagree with your points. Mr. Berlow is employed by himself. Thusly, he has no one, but us, the viewing public, to demand professionilism on him. And as we do not give anything directly to Mr. Berlow, we can't expect him to give us anything. But he does. So, it might not be on a regular basis, but what we get when it's coming is of one of the best quality I've ever seen.

The only people who ever demand professionalism of a supplier of a good/service are, of course, those who consume that good/service. If I don't buy volcano insurance, what do I care about the professionalism of people selling it?

And the "no-cost" argument is simply bad economics. There is, at the very least, an opportunity cost for the consumption of any good or service.

You make it sound as though Mr. Burlew would be just as happy to display these comics in a dark basement. He displays them on the internet precisely because he wants people to read them and enjoy them.


The latest comic, which is the first in the 'random update' schedual, is of as good as quality as any other of the strips so far.

I am discussing work ethic and professionalism. Arguments about the quality of his product are largely irrelevant, imo.


Would you rather work himself to the bone, with failing quality?

Like I said, because of the vague nature of his health concerns, I have no way of knowing whether he is honestly bed-ridden or whether he's just lazy.

Penny Arcade manages to update three times a week. There are many toiling artists who do work themselves to the bone in order to reach the top. Just because it isn't easy doesn't mean that it can't be done.

[SteveMB]

shouldn't you maintain professional standards?

Every professional job I've ever heard of has reasonable provisions for taking time off to recover from serious illness. Ergo, Rich is following professional standards. QED.

[titan_monarch]

Instead, he's said "Updates are now entirely random for the forseeable future. Please keep giving me money."

Not entirely correct.


I want to emphasize that this is NOT a plea for monetary aid; I have very good health insurance these days for exactly this reason. Donating money is not going to change anything about this situation. If anything about my message spurs you to want to donate money, here are a few of my favorite charities that could use your dollars more.

[CliveStaples]

Every professional job I've ever heard of has reasonable provisions for taking time off to recover from serious illness. Ergo, Rich is following professional standards. QED.

An undefined amount of time for an undefined illness that still permits you to work at an undefined rate? You aren't an employer, are you?

[CliveStaples]

Not entirely correct.

I didn't mean in the form of donations. I meant that he still wants people to purchase his products, keeping him financially afloat, and permitting him to have no profession other than producing OOTS, while in return providing entirely random updates.

Now, my complaint is not that people shouldn't spend money on OOTS products. They're worth the money, they're a good product. I'm simply interested in having a discussion about the professionalism of the choice Mr. Burlew has made. Apparently, that means I'm greedy, selfish, etc., etc.

[Sky_Schemer]

Instead, he's said "Updates are now entirely random for the forseeable future. Please keep giving me money."

I wasn't aware that you were paying to read the free web comics.


And if his health concerns are grave enough to keep him from producing three stick figure cartoons a week, then I'm not sure what manner of profession he can engage in. Certainly not any blue-collar or white-collar job.

You're making assumptions about what his job should be. Not everyone on this planet works a 40-hour/week, 8-5 schedule with an hour for lunch and two or three weeks for vacation. Unless you have specifically hired Rich to work a fixed schedule, produce a certain number of comics in a year, or publish a specified number of side products (books, games, etc.), then you have absolutely no grounds for questioning his work ethic.

Two of the benefits of self employment are that you get to set your own schedule and you are your own boss. The trade-off is that you run the risk of losing financial security you might have had in previous employment. For someone like Rich, the former outweighs the latter. For others, it may not. You can't assume, however, that your values apply to someone else's life. They don't, and claiming that anyone who doesn't fit your model of employment is "unprofessional" is downright rude.

[Jukashi]

Three webcomics a week? My father has worked from 5 am to 5 pm every weekday for the last thirty years. Thinking up three webcomics a week and illustrating them as stick figures doesn't seem like an insurmountable task.

Producing stick-figure comics is actually more time-consuming than you may think; I know it from personal experience. It's not difficult, certainly - the majority of the skill in OotS comes from the writing, it is true. However, despite what may be the common viewpoint, easy does not equal quick.

And as you yourself certainly know, "thinking up three webcomics a week" is but a small percentage of what Rich does. The majority of his time is taken up with the other tasks that actually make money, producing additional comics for books (including books with wholly new content such as Start of Darkness), writing for gaming companies, handling publishers and merchandising, maintaining the website (which, along with the forums, surely requires multiple servers and the requisite costs associated), and so on. Writing comics isn't that easy to begin with.

In addition to this, Rich's work takes place largely on computer. To be honest, I would have expected him to conk out due to health concerns much sooner.

[EnshiMay]

I don't feel changing the schedule that he himself agreed to his unprofessional in the least.

If I had a worker who I was getting some product from at an agreed upon 3 times a week schedule with set delivery dates (M/W/F), thats what I would expect. I'd become annoyed (and, did slightly, but I let things go easily) if those deadlines started drifting.


If that worker came to me and said that health issues mean he might not be able to meet the delivery dates, but the volume of work should remain basically the same, I feel it would be unprofessional to not let me know. (Further, if I absolutely had to have the delivery dates, I'd find someone else, but thats a different issue)


Besides, the website has always been the most flexible of his deadlines. Publisher and WotC stuff probably had much firmer deadlines and he always put the firm deadlines first. I see absolutely nothing wrong with what he's chosen to do in this instance.

[Gabriel]

Ah, I see you have made your point clear. Taking time off is professional. If you are ill, you can't work to the best of your ability. If you don't do that, other people suffer. If you are tired and ill when you are, say, a builder, not doing work to the best of your ability due to illness could endanger lives.

But Mr. Berlow is a artist. Doing sloppy work means people stop being intrested in said work. So doing better work when you are feeling well, as he is doing if you read the relevent part of the Important Announcement, is better than doing sloppy work when you aren't.

[CliveStaples]

I wasn't aware that you were paying to read the free web comics.

Oh, wow, I'd never considered that. Thanks for bringing up exactly the same point as the ten people before you.

Never mind the cost of internet service, proper computer, and most of all the time spent reading the comics (which can never be refunded). Never mind all the alternative goods/services that could have been purchased with those resources.


You're making assumptions about what his job should be. Not everyone on this planet works a 40-hour/week, 8-5 schedule with an hour for lunch and two or three weeks for vacation. Unless you have specifically hired Rich to work a fixed schedule, produce a certain number of comics in a year, or publish a specified number of side products (books, games, etc.), then you have absolutely no grounds for questioning his work ethic.

Another "how dare you question our Glorious Leader."

I consume his product. I have a vested interest in whether or not he maintains his product.

Additionally, it's a free country. I have the grounds to question whatever I want to. If you don't want to have this discussion, it's simple: Don't participate. But don't come in and say "Sit down and shut up, don't ask questions!"


Two of the benefits of self employment is that you get to set your own schedule and you are your own boss.

Then he works for a fool, to paraphrase a similar saying. If he doesn't produce goods/services at a strong enough rate to support himself, or at the highest rate possible (whichever is higher), then he's got a bad work ethic.


The trade-off is that you run the risk of losing financial security you might have had in previous employment. For someone like Rich, the former outweighs the latter. For others, it may not. You can't assume, however, that your values apply to someone else's life. They don't, and claiming that anyone who doesn't fit your model of employment is "unprofessional" is downright rude.

How can you make such a glaringly flawed statement?

First, I never stated that there was a single perfect model for hours worked or rate of production, let alone provided numbers for such.

Second, the discussion is about whether Mr. Burlew's choice demonstrates a good work ethic. Not whether Mr. Burlew is a good person or a bad person, but whether he demonstrates a good work ethic. Let's say that he's already set for life based on sales of products that he's already made. If he refused to work, simply spending his vast wealth on whatever pleases him, then I'd say he has a bad work ethic. On the other side of the spectrum, let's say he doesn't have enough money to live on unless he continues to work, but his health precludes being able to work at such a rate without damage. In my opinion, such a person should work to the best of their ability, and if goodwill donations don't make up the rest, then suck it up and take the hit to your health. My grandfather worked as a miner; he didn't get to call in for sick days. He didn't have any benefactors. He had to work in order to provide for his family, and to give his children a better life than he had. That's a good work ethic.

Now, many people seem to be confusing a good work ethic with being a good person. You can have a less-than-perfect work ethic and still be a good person. There's space between the utterly otiose and the utterly diligent. I'm interested in figuring out where Mr. Burlew falls, and I'm open to being persuaded. What I'm not open to is stopping my inquiry because Mr. Burlew decides to provide a webcomic without fee, or because he has health issues.

[estradling]

How high is your dodge bonus to AC? Because you keep missing the thrust of my arguments.

Ba-dum *tsh*

Seriously, though, how do you square away your comparison of Mr. Burlew to subway violinists with such grandiose claims as "he's the most professional webcomic artist on the internet". I mean, you can say lots of things about the subway violinists, but consummate professionals is not a typical descriptor.

Rich isn't playing for loose change. He's doing this as his job. If those subway violinists play as their main source of income, then they should bust their ass doing it. That's called a work ethic.


Yes but your mistaking Rich's posting of a webcomic as his 'job' it is not. It makes him no money directly... It serves as advertisement to draw customers to the paying product.

You appear to be upset that he as been 'late' in giving you something for free. The only traction argument has is that Rich gave is word... (Which he did clarify and now has completly gotten rid of) about the timing schedule.

Now you might also be upset about the schedule went away but their was no contract or requirement that he even posts the comic at all. There is only expectation based on prior history... An expectation he has clearly done away with.

Finally Rich has chosen to make the comic and other related things his full time job. That doesn't equal a free a timely webcomic no matter what. Rich has explicitly stated that one of his reason he made the comic is full time so that when is health issues hit he can take as much time as he needs without the risk of being fired. If he is somehow forced to work anyway how does that make his life any better? Bottom line the fact that Rich can have an erratic schedule is one of the reasons he has chosen to work on the comic and trying to change that calling him unprofessional just isn't going to have an impact

[Daimbert]

If he needs to stop or delay production on his webcomic for health reasons, that's fine. But if you had an employee who came in to work as infrequently as Mr. Burlew does, wouldn't you perhaps think that the employee was not a good worker? He might be a good, wise person--putting health above work--but that doesn't mean that you have to think of him as a great employee/laborer.

But, of course, we aren't his bosses. His customers, maybe, but not his bosses. And in customer relations all you have to do is do what you promise you'll do. So if, say, you were producing 4 releases a year and due to attrition no longer have the staff to do that, you simply tell the customers that in the future they are only going to get 2 releases a year. If they are okay with that, then they remain your customers. If not, they stop buying the product. Ultimately, the business -- in this case Rich Burlew -- has to decide if he will lose enough business by making the change to overcome the reasons he wanted to make the change in the first place. And I strongly suspect that he won't lose enough business, and so it is the right business decision.

These sorts of decisions are made every day in professional, business settings (I've personally experienced similar ones). So not only does it seem that your "It's not professional" claim is unwarranted, it seems that Rich Burlew's behaviour is, in fact, actually quite professional.




Actually, they're both products. Mr. Burlew simply provides the webcomic free of charge to you (given proper internet access, etc.).


The only product that you can really claim "professionalism" towards are either those that customers pay for or those that are offered as bonuses for getting people to buy other products. The web comics are neither.



Mr. Burlew has chosen to produce this webcomic and its various paraphinalia as his main vocation. It is now his profession. What happens to authors who can't meet their deadlines?


Um, WHAT deadlines?

The deadlines on the web comic are purely Rich Burlew imposed. We do not and cannot demand them. There is no publishing house demanding them at a certain time. The only deadlines that have ever been on the web comic were established by Rich Burlew saying "This is when I'll update them". Deadlines which he has now changed and abolished.

Thinking of a professional author, an author can write and finish their novel whenever they like and write as many as they like in a year as long as they don't run afoul of the deadlines set by their publishers. Stephen King can easily say "I'm writing one book this year" and negotiate a publishing date of January the next year and then do it whenever he wants in that year.



Now, let's take a look at Calvin and Hobbes. Mr. Watterson eventually stopped producing newspaper comic strips exactly because of the deadlines (among other reasons), and went to producing books. Which is a fine alternative, in my opinion.

If Mr. Burlew, like Mr. Watterson, finds weekly/daily deadlines so hassling, simply saying "no deadlines, completely random production of strips" seems vaguely inappropriate, doesn't it?


Mr. Watterson had to deal with deadlines set by the newspapers. He could also have decided to do them all as a webcomic and updated them whenever he liked, and not lost any professionalism. Attempting to produce them whenever he wanted for a newspaper that had deadlines that he accepted would be unprofessional. But on a web comic there ARE no deadlines other than what the author says are there. And Rich Burlew's decision is based on the fact that he doesn't think that he can meet the ones he commited to. We may choose to accept that or move on, as is our right as at least pseudo-customers.

(And hey, I have indeed bought something ... now if only the blasted game would get here so that I could play it ... [grin]).



I would happily pay a weekly/montly fee for regular comics.


Even then, the update rate could be what Rich Burlew says it is. If he offered a membership now with the same deadlines (three per week, whenever) would that be wrong? No, it would be consistent with other web services and constitute the entirety of the agreement between you and him. And no such explicit agreement applies here.

It seems to me that your best bet would be to offer or solicit suggestions for how it COULD remain a regular comic, rather than attempting to claim that not doing so is a sign of unprofessionalism.

[irlpotato]

What you and the other contributing members of this thread seem to miss is that I'm questioning his business/work ethic, not his priorities.

I'm not really sure I understand the question, but since that has never stopped anyone on the internet, I won't let it stop me:
What do you mean by work ethic? If you mean a certain level of dedication/time allocated to a companies project, I don't really think it's applicable. Mr. Burlew is self employed: he only owes himself, and those who depend upon him for financial support, the level of productivity needed to provide for them.

In terms of producing the comic for the public: The only deadlines he has are self imposed: he could have just as easily said that he was making the schedule once a week. Would this constitute a breach of ethics? Or is the non-static deadline what is unethical? (have you ever waiting for a patch from microsoft or a new computer game? theyre pretty "fluid" deadlines)



How many updates has he missed?


I read a lot of printed comics (from the big two). It is quite frequent for a writer/author/artist/inker/colourist to miss deadlines. It's art. it takes a lot of work, sometimes redoing a number of things to get it right. It can't be compared to a 9 to 5 job behind a till.



If he needs to stop or delay production on his webcomic for health reasons, that's fine. But if you had an employee who came in to work as infrequently as Mr. Burlew does, wouldn't you perhaps think that the employee was not a good worker? He might be a good, wise person--putting health above work--but that doesn't mean that you have to think of him as a great employee/laborer.


If he didnt have a good reason for his absences, no, he wouldnt be a good employee. If, however, an employee has a legitimate health concern (and i'm fairly sure the Giant does), you are required by law (in Ireland anyway, I'm not sure about other countries) to accommodate that employee as best you can. That employee is still capable for the work, but adjustments have to be made to cater to them. I used to work with a newly pregnant woman: her hours had to be changed to evenings because of morning sickness, and she had to miss occasional days for ultra sounds and such. Maybe she was less productive than she had been before, but the company is required to support her. Is she being unethical?



Mr. Burlew has chosen to produce this webcomic and its various paraphinalia as his main vocation. It is now his profession. What happens to authors who can't meet their deadlines?


If they work for a publishing company, they get fined. If they are big authors, they get an extended deadline. if they work for themselves, they may lose money/a fanbase.

Heck, penny arcade is one of the biggest webcomics out there, and they have no set deadlines. And it is their profession.



Now, let's take a look at Calvin and Hobbes. Mr. Watterson eventually stopped producing newspaper comic strips exactly because of the deadlines (among other reasons), and went to producing books. Which is a fine alternative, in my opinion.

If Mr. Burlew, like Mr. Watterson, finds weekly/daily deadlines so hassling, simply saying "no deadlines, completely random production of strips" seems vaguely inappropriate, doesn't it?


I vaguely remember reading about that in the foreward of one of those books. Again: Mr. Burlew has health concerns, Mr. Watterson was apparently very difficult to work with. He also had to go through a publishing company, and got fed up with their interference. Oots (online) is not through a publishing company, so he is not beholden to a publishing deadline, other than what he promises the fans. And he has asked for their understanding.


Three webcomics a week? My father has worked from 5 am to 5 pm every weekday for the last thirty years. Thinking up three webcomics a week and illustrating them as stick figures doesn't seem like an insurmountable task.

I can't really argue this without knowing what your father does for a living, and whether it can compare to drawing a webcomic: but i find this line a little.. insulting? condescending? can't think of an appropriate word.

Thinking up three comics a week? The knee jerk reaction is to ask: could you do it? Get the character concepts, art, some comedy, and a balance long term plot 3 times a week? Can you name many webcomics that do?

Scott Adams (Dilbert guy), has stated that most of his comics in recent years are based on submissions by fans.

Have you looked at comedy tv shows? they take months of writes, and re-writes to get their material. And theres usually at least 3 or 4 writers involved if not a huge staff. Comic book authors typically write 12 stories a year for a single character.




If health reasons preclude such production, then clearly such production isn't an appropriate choice of profession, no?

I don't mean to get particularly personal here, but you seem to have something against sick people. It is clearly stated that health problems mean he can't sit at a computer some days. What other profession would he be suited to? mattress tester? sickbed clothing model?

[Twilight Jack]

Second, the discussion is about whether Mr. Burlew's choice demonstrates a good work ethic. Not whether Mr. Burlew is a good person or a bad person, but whether he demonstrates a good work ethic. Let's say that he's already set for life based on sales of products that he's already made. If he refused to work, simply spending his vast wealth on whatever pleases him, then I'd say he has a bad work ethic. On the other side of the spectrum, let's say he doesn't have enough money to live on unless he continues to work, but his health precludes being able to work at such a rate without damage. In my opinion, such a person should work to the best of their ability, and if goodwill donations don't make up the rest, then suck it up and take the hit to your health. My grandfather worked as a miner; he didn't get to call in for sick days. He didn't have any benefactors. He had to work in order to provide for his family, and to give his children a better life than he had. That's a good work ethic.

Now, many people seem to be confusing a good work ethic with being a good person. You can have a less-than-perfect work ethic and still be a good person. There's space between the utterly otiose and the utterly diligent. I'm interested in figuring out where Mr. Burlew falls, and I'm open to being persuaded. What I'm not open to is stopping my inquiry because Mr. Burlew decides to provide a webcomic without fee, or because he has health issues.

Ah. I believe I now grasp the underlying worldview which provides the foundation of your argument. It makes it much easier to avoid an overwhelming rage at what seems to the untrained eye to be a profound sense of baseless entitlement.

Essentially, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying that Rich has made a commitment to this endeavor and that, were he a man of his word, he would fulfill the commitment he has made, regardless of personal cost. This captures the essence of the notion of what you believe to be a "good work ethic", yes?

I'd like to propose a new lens through which to view this, but before I do, I'd first like to ensure that I'm correct about my reading.

[CliveStaples]

Ah, I see you have made your point clear. Taking time off is professional. If you are ill, you can't work to the best of your ability. If you don't do that, other people suffer. If you are tired and ill when you are, say, a builder, not doing work to the best of your ability due to illness could endanger lives.

Tired and ill? Come on, surely we can come to a clearer definition than that. Or can I decide not to go to work because I stayed up late last night and am still tired, and I have the sniffles?


But Mr. Berlow is a artist. Doing sloppy work means people stop being intrested in said work. So doing better work when you are feeling well, as he is doing if you read the relevent part of the Important Announcement, is better than doing sloppy work when you aren't.

Here's the rub: doing sloppy work is better than doing none. Go ask cashiers at Wal-Mart if they get to take sick days whenever they can't work at 100%. Having a good work ethic means getting the job done even when you have a headache, or a broken arm, or when you're tired, or when you just don't want to.


I don't feel changing the schedule that he himself agreed to his unprofessional in the least.

If I had a worker who I was getting some product from at an agreed upon 3 times a week schedule with set delivery dates (M/W/F), thats what I would expect. I'd become annoyed (and, did slightly, but I let things go easily) if those deadlines started drifting.

If that worker came to me and said that health issues mean he might not be able to meet the delivery dates, but the volume of work should remain basically the same, I feel it would be unprofessional to not let me know. (Further, if I absolutely had to have the delivery dates, I'd find someone else, but thats a different issue)

No, it's exactly the same issue. If a supplier is unwilling or unable to supply the good/service, then you go somewhere else. Which is what may happen here, unfortunately.


Besides, the website has always been the most flexible of his deadlines. Publisher and WotC stuff probably had much firmer deadlines and he always put the firm deadlines first. I see absolutely nothing wrong with what he's chosen to do in this instance.

First, thank you for making a reasoned, relevant argument, and for not calling me names.

It seems to me that a consummate professional would strive to the uttermost to keep the schedule that he had committed to. Of course, I'm not familiar with the particulars of Mr. Burlew's condition (which is perfectly within his rights to keep private), so I can't say whether his condition truly keeps him from keeping the schedule or whether he's using it as an excuse. My experience with people makes me tend to believe the latter.


Producing stick-figure comics is actually more time-consuming than you may think; I know it from personal experience. It's not difficult, certainly - the majority of the skill in OotS comes from the writing, it is true. However, despite what may be the common viewpoint, easy does not equal quick.

And as you yourself certainly know, "thinking up three webcomics a week" is but a small percentage of what Rich does. The majority of his time is taken up with the other tasks that actually make money, producing additional comics for books (including books with wholly new content such as Start of Darkness), writing for gaming companies, handling publishers and merchandising, maintaining the website (which, along with the forums, surely requires multiple servers and the requisite costs associated), and so on. Writing comics isn't that easy to begin with.

In addition to this, Rich's work takes place largely on computer. To be honest, I would have expected him to conk out due to health concerns much sooner.

How much work does Mr. Burlew actually have on his plate?

How many illustrations does he provide for non-OOTS-website-related products?

Writing for gaming companies? What, he does Eberron now? Does he have any upcoming novels or modules?

The rest of what you mention--publishers, merchandising, servers--is already in place, no? I mean, he's already published, so he has a contract. His website is already up and running. He already sells OOTS merchandise. And if he's producing new OOTS content to be published, then he's already capable of producing webcomics, so why should he hamstring his output rate on the site?

[CliveStaples]

Ah. I believe I now grasp the underlying worldview which provides the foundation of your argument. It makes it much easier to avoid an overwhelming rage at what seems to the untrained eye to be a profound sense of baseless entitlement.

Essentially, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying that Rich has made a commitment to this endeavor and that, were he a man of his word, he would fulfill the commitment he has made, regardless of personal cost. This captures the essence of the notion of what you believe to be a "good work ethic", yes?

I'd like to propose a new lens through which to view this, but before I do, I'd first like to ensure that I'm correct about my reading.

Essentially, that's accurate. I'm not saying that if he doesn't meet his prior commitment, then he's a worthless person; I'm just wondering where he falls along the spectrum of work ethics.

[Krytha]

arrogantxyz

The comic strip is NOT his job. No one is paying him to do it. He has said this many times, it is simply advertisement for the products he puts out. No company is being PAID to advertise their stuff, they do it because it is a good business decision.

Rich not having regular advertisements isn't something worth whining about. Unprofessional? Completely irrelevant. Just as Sony chooses when and where to put out new ads, Rich has every right to choose his own schedule where the comic is concerned. Again, you pay for the t-shirts and the books, not the strips.

Misc: Penny Arcade is a 2 man team with a vast amount of support and resources. If they couldn't pull of 3 (3 paneled) strips a week, I would start worrying about their health, not their professional standards.

"I would pay for the comic to be regular" argument: Too bad, that offer is not on the table and is irrelevant.

Rich doesn't ask for money, he doesn't demand for people to buy his products the same way people demand their comics. Whether they do or not is completely up to them, comic or no comic. I don't understand how you think he is "forcing" people to keep him financially afloat and then not keeping his end of a bargain that he never agreed to in the first place.

[CliveStaples]

Yes but your mistaking Rich's posting of a webcomic as his 'job' it is not. It makes him no money directly... It serves as advertisement to draw customers to the paying product.

Then it is part of his job. Notice that I refer to OOTS as his chosen vocation, not merely updating the free content of his website.


You appear to be upset that he as been 'late' in giving you something for free. The only traction argument has is that Rich gave is word... (Which he did clarify and now has completly gotten rid of) about the timing schedule.

I'm not upset about anything. I don't take it as a personal affront that Mr. Burlew has reduced updating free content due to his health. I wouldn't be upset if his only reason was "I don't want to make comics for free, this is how I make a living."


Now you might also be upset about the schedule went away but their was no contract or requirement that he even posts the comic at all. There is only expectation based on prior history... An expectation he has clearly done away with.

Finally Rich has chosen to make the comic and other related things his full time job. That doesn't equal a free a timely webcomic no matter what. Rich has explicitly stated that one of his reason he made the comic is full time so that when is health issues hit he can take as much time as he needs without the risk of being fired. If he is somehow forced to work anyway how does that make his life any better? Bottom line the fact that Rich can have an erratic schedule is one of the reasons he has chosen to work on the comic and trying to change that calling him unprofessional just isn't going to have an impact

You're missing the point of my argument. I'm not trying to effect a regular free-content update. I'm merely wondering about his work ethic.

[roadkiller]

He makes his money off of the books and other stuff he makes money from, not from the timely updates of the comic. Admittedly, he does have to make the comics to make the books. However, he did say that he would make up any comics that he misses, not that he would just blow them off.


Removing the official schedule probably won’t affect the comic’s frequency much, but it will remove the additional stress when I’m unable to meet the three-times-a-week deadline (and removing stress is a good thing, according to my doctor).

He even states that it won't make much of a difference in the frequency of the comics.


"I'll get around to my job whenever I feel like it"


Basically, when I’m doing well, I will post comics, and when I am not, I won’t.

He's did not say when I feel like it, but when I can. From what I read in that post is that he does have fairly serious symptoms that do prevent him from doing much of anything.


Maybe I'm too cynical, but when someone cites vague reasons like "health concerns", "medical condition", "family issues", as a reason for not working, I tend to doubt that they're being honest. I wouldn't be able to keep my job if I called in twice a week citing "health concerns" for not showing up.

Now, you in essence said that you didn't believe him right here. Something about that seems off. I can't really put it to words, though. Let me just say that there is a difference between telling your boss and a few co-workers that you have medical condition XYZ and might not be able to work, and going onto the internet and tell several thousand people that you have medical condition XYZ and might not be able to update. Hell, I don't like telling people that I can't do ABC because I've got a cold or the flu. Go get a major debilitating disease then announce it on here with your real name, address, ect. It'd be uncomfortable, at the least.

Now, you seem to be running on the idea that Rich might be lying. I know a number of diseases that could be afflicting Rich with symptoms that could prevent him from working.

But that isn't the actual point of this topic. Let me put it simply. If he's sick and taking the time he need, it certainly isn't bad work ethic. If he's lying, and honestly it is a possiblity, though one I highly doubt, then it's bad work ethic. Though, seeing some of the people and threads on these forums, if he said, "I'm going to take a vacation, I'll be back in two weeks. You'll get bonuses through my nose when I get back," the forums would flood with people whining and complaining about it. I suppose that faking sick would be better than taking a vacation, all around. I, honestly, wouldn't blame him.

Gah! This is what happens when I get on these forums. I see something that annoys me vaguely, so I end up reading through the rest and getting annoyed at both sides of the argument (even the one that I'm closer to). Then I write up a post. Then realize that this happens every time, so I tack on a little rant at the bottom about the fact that whenever I get on theses forums... Oh wait... I'm done now.

[Porthos]

Rich has stated many times in many places that he does not consider the webcomic his job. He considers the books, merchandise, and everything else related to the webcomic his job. In fact, he goes as far as to say that the webcomic is advertising for his "real" product. You have made it abundantly clear that you consider both the webcomic and the merchandise his job.

Since Rich is self-employed, I would think that Rich's view on the matter takes precedence. :smalltongue:

Now, this doesn't mean you can't whine and bitch about it. Of course you can (within forum rules of course). But when two people have an axiomatic difference of opinion, don't expect it to be resolved in your favor. :smallwink:

So if you want to complain about Rich's professionalism when it comes to stuff he actually makes a buck on, go right ahead. But if you are complaining about the advertising of said product, don't expect much sympathy from Rich. :smallbiggrin:

[estradling]

You're missing the point of my argument. I'm not trying to effect a regular free-content update. I'm merely wondering about his work ethic.

And I have to ask what business is it of yours?.. You seem very quick to judge on what Rich should and should not be able to accomplish when you have at best a fragmented view of what he spends is time on or what is involved in doing it. (The challenge to produce your own webcomic and see how easy it is not has already been issued by others)

[Fishybugs]

Clive, if you truly doubt that Rich is having health problems and is merely fishing for more time off because of a poor work ethic, maybe you would enjoy other webcomics more.

To paraphrase soemone's sig: You not reading this comic doesn't make it any less awesome for the rest of us.

Good day, sir.

[Gundato]

How high is your dodge bonus to AC? Because you keep missing the thrust of my arguments.

Ba-dum *tsh*

Seriously, though, how do you square away your comparison of Mr. Burlew to subway violinists with such grandiose claims as "he's the most professional webcomic artist on the internet". I mean, you can say lots of things about the subway violinists, but consummate professionals is not a typical descriptor.

Rich isn't playing for loose change. He's doing this as his job. If those subway violinists play as their main source of income, then they should bust their ass doing it. That's called a work ethic.

I ain't the one saying he is the most proffesional guy out there. Learn to read.

What I am saying is that you are treating him like a white-collared worker. He ain't. He is an artist, plain and simple. If this pisses you off so much, you can always protest by not reading the comic.

[mockingbyrd7]

I am perturbed by YOU, Clive.

Rich Burlew is freaking ILL. He has a chronic illness and it comes and goes. May I remind you that this is a FREE webcomic, that HE spends HIS time and HIS creativity to put up for YOU, and there are STILL three updates a week any way! And what are YOU doing for HIM? Insulting him and berating him. For a favor that HE is doing for YOU.

Crazy world.

[theGec]

Last time I checked, the term Ethics, was highly subjective in nature.

Based on what I've seen, this entire argument is over the proper definition of Correct Work Ethics. Thus, because this is an opinion based argument, it is therefore null. Since points pertaining to the subject can be neither proven nor falsified.

[CliveStaples]

I'm not really sure I understand the question, but since that has never stopped anyone on the internet, I won't let it stop me:
What do you mean by work ethic? If you mean a certain level of dedication/time allocated to a companies project, I don't really think it's applicable. Mr. Burlew is self employed: he only owes himself, and those who depend upon him for financial support, the level of productivity needed to provide for them.

Simply not true. If I had a $10 billion trust fund, I could provide for my family without working. I could laze about, doing nothing all day, and still put food on the table. That, however, would not be a very good work ethic.


In terms of producing the comic for the public: The only deadlines he has are self imposed: he could have just as easily said that he was making the schedule once a week. Would this constitute a breach of ethics? Or is the non-static deadline what is unethical? (have you ever waiting for a patch from microsoft or a new computer game? theyre pretty "fluid" deadlines)

The problem isn't the nature of the deadlines, or who makes them. The issue is whether Mr. Burlew keeps to the deadlines he himself set, and whether he is actually putting forth the effort required of working persons.


I read a lot of printed comics (from the big two). It is quite frequent for a writer/author/artist/inker/colourist to miss deadlines. It's art. it takes a lot of work, sometimes redoing a number of things to get it right. It can't be compared to a 9 to 5 job behind a till.

Actually, it can. Working 9-5 behind a till requires diligence, punctuality, and dedication.


If he didnt have a good reason for his absences, no, he wouldnt be a good employee. If, however, an employee has a legitimate health concern (and i'm fairly sure the Giant does), you are required by law (in Ireland anyway, I'm not sure about other countries) to accommodate that employee as best you can. That employee is still capable for the work, but adjustments have to be made to cater to them. I used to work with a newly pregnant woman: her hours had to be changed to evenings because of morning sickness, and she had to miss occasional days for ultra sounds and such. Maybe she was less productive than she had been before, but the company is required to support her. Is she being unethical?

No, because she has a legitimate reason for cutting back on work. But it also depends on her situation; I know quite a few pregnant women who worked 8 hours a day at their job until their water broke, because they simply couldn't take the time off. They needed the money. That's a pretty damn good work ethic right there, if you ask me.


If they work for a publishing company, they get fined. If they are big authors, they get an extended deadline. if they work for themselves, they may lose money/a fanbase.

Heck, penny arcade is one of the biggest webcomics out there, and they have no set deadlines. And it is their profession.

It isn't about whether the deadlines are set or fluid. It's about whether you can keep to your commitment.


I vaguely remember reading about that in the foreward of one of those books. Again: Mr. Burlew has health concerns, Mr. Watterson was apparently very difficult to work with. He also had to go through a publishing company, and got fed up with their interference. Oots (online) is not through a publishing company, so he is not beholden to a publishing deadline, other than what he promises the fans. And he has asked for their understanding.

I can't really argue this without knowing what your father does for a living, and whether it can compare to drawing a webcomic: but i find this line a little.. insulting? condescending? can't think of an appropriate word.

My father worked first as a farmer and then as a stock broker on the West coast. My family has a big blue-collar background with very recent white-collar family members. So I'm not that forgiving when it comes to excuses for cutting back on work.


Thinking up three comics a week? The knee jerk reaction is to ask: could you do it? Get the character concepts, art, some comedy, and a balance long term plot 3 times a week? Can you name many webcomics that do?

I'm not an artist, so you're asking an inappropriate question. And he doesn't do that much plot development in every comic, so the "three times a week zomg" argument isn't very persuasive.


Scott Adams (Dilbert guy), has stated that most of his comics in recent years are based on submissions by fans.

Have you looked at comedy tv shows? they take months of writes, and re-writes to get their material. And theres usually at least 3 or 4 writers involved if not a huge staff. Comic book authors typically write 12 stories a year for a single character.

Mr. Burlew is not producing a television show. He is producing a generally three-panel stick figure comic.


I don't mean to get particularly personal here, but you seem to have something against sick people. It is clearly stated that health problems mean he can't sit at a computer some days. What other profession would he be suited to? mattress tester? sickbed clothing model?

Excuse me? I have something against sick people now?

Well, I must hate my uncle, who died of cancer. I must hate my other uncle, who was clinically depressed and killed himself. I must hate my younger cousin who was just diagnosed with liver cancer. I must hate my grandfather who had spinabifida and died of stomach cancer. I must hate my mother, who has diabetes.

Yeah, my arguments are totally based on my irrational dislike of the sick.

[Porthos]

BTW, if you are serious in wanting to know how Rich views this matter, there are a string of posts on forumopolis that deal with this very topic.

http://www.forumopolis.com/showthread.php?p=637918#post637918
http://www.forumopolis.com/showthread.php?p=637964#post637964
http://www.forumopolis.com/showthread.php?p=642002#post642002
http://www.forumopolis.com/showthread.php?p=642505#post642505

I'm not saying that you should accept Rich's view on the matter unquestioned. But I am saying that he has a fundamentally different viewpoint than you, and that it might be a tad hard to reconcile the two views. :smallsmile:

[Sky_Schemer]

Oh, wow, I'd never considered that. Thanks for bringing up exactly the same point as the ten people before you.

Well, it doesn't seem to be getting through to you. Repetition sometimes helps.


Never mind the cost of internet service, proper computer, and most of all the time spent reading the comics (which can never be refunded). Never mind all the alternative goods/services that could have been purchased with those resources.

You purchased internet service and computer equipment solely to read the web comic? Now you're just being silly.


I consume his product. I have a vested interest in whether or not he maintains his product.

Additionally, it's a free country. I have the grounds to question whatever I want to. If you don't want to have this discussion, it's simple: Don't participate. But don't come in and say "Sit down and shut up, don't ask questions!"

No one questions your right to complain, but you are making a value judgement and an accusation based on your narrow definition of professionalism and work ethic. It should not surprise you at all that people
would disagree with you, point out that your logic is flawed, and call you rude.


Then he works for a fool, to paraphrase a similar saying. If he doesn't produce goods/services at a strong enough rate to support himself, or at the highest rate possible (whichever is higher), then he's got a bad work ethic.

Who said he isn't supporting himself? He's just not working at a pace you like.


First, I never stated that there was a single perfect model for hours worked or rate of production, let alone provided numbers for such.

In questioning his professionalism and his work ethic, you most certainly are holding him up to a standard. The rest of your tirade, which I have trimmed, talks about caring for family and work ethic, but your real complaint that started this thread is that you don't like the fact that he doesn't have a set schedule. And so I repeat: he's self-employed and gets to set his own work hours. Don't like it? Fine. You don't have to. But unless he has an employment agreement with you, there's no grounds to claim he's unprofessional, or question his ability to hold a regular job.


What I'm not open to is stopping my inquiry because Mr. Burlew decides to provide a webcomic without fee, or because he has health issues.

No one is stopping your inquiry: we're actively and vocally disagreeing with your conclusion. Just because you can express an opinion, that doesn't mean other people will like it or agree with it.

The fact that most people don't, in fact, should tell you something.

[Daimbert]

I am not lambasting Mr. Burlew for taking a vacation. That's not what he's doing. If he was, he'd say something like "For a certain amount of time, I will be updating the webcomic less frequently. After that amount of time, updates will resume as normal."

Instead, he's said "Updates are now entirely random for the forseeable future. Please keep giving me money."


Hmmmm. I think that after consulting my doily I finally get what you're going on about here.

It seems to me that you are one of the people -- or, at least, are presenting as if you were -- who are saying to themselves "It would be really nice if Rich Burlew could devote his time to doing the web comic instead of having to do it and work for a living. But he can only do that if the books and other products he sells makes enough money for him to live. So I'll buy his books in order to ensure that he can continue to produce his fine web comic".

So, if this is your attitude towards his books, then I can certainly see how it might annoy you. After all, he wants to continue to not work and yet is no longer using that fact to produce the web comic in a fashion compatible with "full time OOTS status". All I can say to that is that you have to make a choice over whether or not you wish to continue purchasing the books considering the update status of the comic. And Rich Burlew, of course, has to consider the (potential) loss of customers like yourself.

As for me, I bought the adventure game on the basis of the fact that I wanted it. The web comic could have been ended with a blaze of glory and I would have still bought it. The same thing applies to any other products that I may buy in the future. So it impacts me not at all in that sense.

If this ISN'T what you're going on about, then I can't see any valid reason that you could have to complain, so you'll have to be more specific [grin].

[EnshiMay]

No, it's exactly the same issue. If a supplier is unwilling or unable to supply the good/service, then you go somewhere else. Which is what may happen here, unfortunately.


I think its too early to make this argument. Rich's statement is that the total volume of comics should remain roughly the same. We've had... half a week to determine this. If, in 4 weeks, we've had 4 comics, I feel your complaint would be justified. If in 4 weeks, we've had 10-11 comics, I don't feel thats a big issue.




It seems to me that a consummate professional would strive to the uttermost to keep the schedule that he had committed to. Of course, I'm not familiar with the particulars of Mr. Burlew's condition (which is perfectly within his rights to keep private), so I can't say whether his condition truly keeps him from keeping the schedule or whether he's using it as an excuse. My experience with people makes me tend to believe the latter.

How much work does Mr. Burlew actually have on his plate?

How many illustrations does he provide for non-OOTS-website-related products?

Writing for gaming companies? What, he does Eberron now? Does he have any upcoming novels or modules?

The rest of what you mention--publishers, merchandising, servers--is already in place, no? I mean, he's already published, so he has a contract. His website is already up and running. He already sells OOTS merchandise. And if he's producing new OOTS content to be published, then he's already capable of producing webcomics, so why should he hamstring his output rate on the site?

I don't know how much work he has. I have no idea, I know more or less what he publishes on this site.

Until I get further evidence, I feel its completely professional for Rich to let us know his schedule is being hurt because of his health.

I have no reason to believe he lies or exaggerates his health risk. I do find it a bit rude to accuse him of being lazy because of it.

We don't even know how much it will affect the total volume of work. Come back in a few weeks and we'll re-argue this.

[Rinquist]

The hypotenuse of the dilithium crystals are chromosomal to the antidisestablishmentarianism with prophetic nonsensical overtones in the plutonium!

What I see here is one guy voicing a rather refreshing opinion, with everyone else attacking him with generic, canned responses such as, "omg it's free comic!" and "u no like u go away noob!"

I applaud you, Clive. You're backing up what you said originally, even though it's obviously not the popular, or proper opinion around here, and you're doing it with tact and and courtesy, even though everyone else is pretty much telling you to shut up and sit down.

[Porthos]

Clive, calling people liars, and yes that is exactly what you are doing when you insinuate that Rich is using his illness as an excuse and is grossly exaggerating its effects, is not exactly healthy for a debate.

Just saying. :smallsmile:

[CliveStaples]

No, Rich's professionalism has AMAZED me! He's done this strip, wrote a game world for Wizards (coming in second to Keith Baker's Ebberon), four books, two of which were completely new material, numerous articles for Dragon Magazine, created Artifacts for a Book of Artifacts, and created an Order of the Stick game, AND expantion! Oh, and several appearances at different Conventions, apparantly as a speaker, not just a booth sitter.

That's his resume' just off the top of my head. What's your resume' say?

Another "sit down, shut up, stop asking questions" post.

So I can't inquire about Mr. Burlew's professionalism unless my resume is bigger, longer, and thicker than his?

But nice try. Really, trying to intimidate me into complacency by comparing my achievements to Mr. Burlew's. Not a novel tactic, but at least one I haven't seen in this thread before.

[mockingbyrd7]

Simply not true. If I had a $10 billion trust fund, I could provide for my family without working. I could laze about, doing nothing all day, and still put food on the table. That, however, would not be a very good work ethic.



The problem isn't the nature of the deadlines, or who makes them. The issue is whether Mr. Burlew keeps to the deadlines he himself set, and whether he is actually putting forth the effort required of working persons.



Actually, it can. Working 9-5 behind a till requires diligence, punctuality, and dedication.



No, because she has a legitimate reason for cutting back on work. But it also depends on her situation; I know quite a few pregnant women who worked 8 hours a day at their job until their water broke, because they simply couldn't take the time off. They needed the money. That's a pretty damn good work ethic right there, if you ask me.



It isn't about whether the deadlines are set or fluid. It's about whether you can keep to your commitment.



My father worked first as a farmer and then as a stock broker on the West coast. My family has a big blue-collar background with very recent white-collar family members. So I'm not that forgiving when it comes to excuses for cutting back on work.



I'm not an artist, so you're asking an inappropriate question. And he doesn't do that much plot development in every comic, so the "three times a week zomg" argument isn't very persuasive.



Mr. Burlew is not producing a television show. He is producing a generally three-panel stick figure comic.



Excuse me? I have something against sick people now?

Well, I must hate my uncle, who died of cancer. I must hate my other uncle, who was clinically depressed and killed himself. I must hate my younger cousin who was just diagnosed with liver cancer. I must hate my grandfather who had spinabifida and died of stomach cancer. I must hate my mother, who has diabetes.

Yeah, my arguments are totally based on my irrational dislike of the sick.

I am perturbed by YOU, Clive.

Rich Burlew is freaking ILL. He has a chronic illness and it comes and goes. May I remind you that this is a FREE webcomic, that HE spends HIS time and HIS creativity to put up for YOU, and there are STILL three updates a week any way! And what are YOU doing for HIM? Insulting him and berating him. For a favor that HE is doing for YOU.

Crazy world.

Condolences for your sick family members.

[Lostboy]

I'm so happy that the modern age of web comics allows comic artists to have more flexible schedules without having to meet the rigidly scheduled demands of corporate cogs wanting more product to sell. If Bill Watterson had been a web comic artist instead of working for a press syndicate, I think he would not have quit making Calvin and Hobbes.So please stop begrudging Rich for making fair use of this flexibility. Without it, he'd have probably had to quit being a comic artist by now due to his health. You should be grateful that he has this option and is exercising it. In the long run, you'll get more of what you want, and he'll get to keep creating while still maintaining his health as he should.

Be patient. Show compassion for the guy. There are so many things in the world today to entertain you. Do one of those if you need something to occupy you in the interim.

[Dur]

You can't complain about professionalism in a case like this. You try to talk about authors who miss their deadlines, but the fact is that true authors have no deadlines, or at least not weekly deadlines. You try to make a comparison between Rich Burlew and the guy who wrote "Calvin and Hobbes" when the fact of the matter is that the deadline was set by the Newspaper, and not by the artist.

When he stopped writing new comic strips do you think he still held himself to a one comic a day deadline? That's absurd.

The fact of the matter is this: YOU are the consumer, NOT the employer, something your argument hinges on. Rich Burlew is Rich Burlew's employer. The whole point of creating a web-comic is to avoid such strenuos deadlines inflicted by other jobs and media. The argument just doesn't hold any water.

Updating his web-comic at three random times a week = updating his comic on three specific days a week.

Who are you to set professional standards on internet web-comics? The only one who's allowed to set those standards is the writer/artist themselves. As a consumer, you have nothing to do with the "professional" part of this, just the "supply and demand" part of it.

[Sky_Schemer]

What I see here is one guy voicing a rather refreshing opinion, with everyone else attacking him with generic, canned responses such as, "omg it's free comic!" and "u no like u go away noob!"

Actually, the majority of the posts are well-reasoned and speak to specific points Clive has raised. That you don't agree with those doesn't make them canned or generic or even attacks.


I applaud you, Clive. You're backing up what you said originally, even though it's obviously not the popular, or proper opinion around here, and you're doing it with tact and and courtesy, even though everyone else is pretty much telling you to shut up and sit down.

I'll give him points for sticking to his argument, but you shouldn't confuse disagreement with a request for silence. When you start pulling out arguments like these, it suggests you're responding emotionally rather than logically.

[CliveStaples]

Clive, calling people liars, and yes that is exactly what you are doing when you insinuate that Rich is using his illness as an excuse and is grossly exaggerating its effects, is not exactly healthy for a debate.

Just saying. :smallsmile:

I've taken great care not to call Mr. Burlew a liar. The closest I have come is saying that I'm unable to say whether he's telling the truth or not because I'm not familiar with the particulars of his condition--which is his right to keep private. Which means, of course, that by my logic, I can't call him a liar because I don't know what he's sick with. If I was forced to draw a conclusion, however, I would say (given my unfamiliarity with Mr. Burlew personally, and therefore having no way to ascertain his general honesty) that he's using it as a crutch. But, as I said, I have no basis for drawing any conclusion about his illness. Which is why I'm interested in discussing with others and seeing what they think.

[Kaerbek]

Rich is his own boss, he do as he wants...

found it unethical? Sue him.

and then, shut up.

[Rajhiim]

I stand by the masses in the belief that Mr. B has satisfied any 'obligation' to us by:

1. Announcing the change in postings (from m/w/f to unannounced).

2. Providing us with a FREE service (any rebuttal about internet access or computer costs imply you only have these services for this webcomic... which is incredibly hard to believe).

Does this mean I dont wish there was a fresh and new OOTS everytime I turn my PC on? Oh I would love that - but it isnt the case and that's that.

Also - don't underestimate the difficulty of coming up with the story line (writing) in the OOTS... Sure, the "drawings" are simplistic (but that's part of the genius if you ask me) but it's the STORY that keeps us coming back for more.

He has "deadlines" to make as a professional artist... they are not our deadlines though, they are his and his publishers.

Enjoy the free comic friend... one day we may not have such a luxury, especially if one runs themself into the ground as you suggest they should.

[Krytha]

BTW, if you are serious in wanting to know how Rich views this matter, there are a string of posts on forumopolis that deal with this very topic. *snip*
Thanks Porthos. I'd never seen those before.

[Dalenthas]

Lets use your Wal-Mart example for a second here.
If someone with the sniffles doesn't go in to work, they lose what pay they would get for the hours they miss. If they consistantly miss days, they may get fired (especially at the low tiers like Wal-Mart cashier, it is debatable exactly how much time somone can miss before being fired).
Now, if they were feeling sick and oh, I don't know, agreed to make up their hours later, when they felt better, they'd get paid the same amount.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't that pretty much what the Giant said he was going to do? If you don't like paying the opportunity cost of going through the effort to move your mouse to your favorites menu and clicking OotS at random points, either get the RSS feed so you know when something new is up, or just come every say, Sunday for example and catch up on what you missed. Saying that there's an opportunity cost for viewing this webcomic is (IMHO), ignoring the point of opportunity cost. If there's no new comic you waste, what 10 seconds with a dialup connection? OMG! I lost what could have been a whole $0.25 if I had been at work and paid by the second!

And another point you brought up: You said he should produce however many as he needed to provide for himself or as many as possible whichever is higher. Well, he hasn't had a problem providing for himself yet, so if he says he can only do 3 comics a week, I believe him. I'd rather have 3 good comics at random times a week than, say, have the OotS controlled by giant space cats (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/fanart/ootslate1.gif).

I love how you're saying "I'm not necessiarily saying he's lazy, he could actually be sick, but I'm not going to give him the benefit of the doubt and instead keep arguing that he's lazy."

You know what, if he is just being lazy, more power to him. I'd love to be that artistic enough to produce 3 comics a week and have time to spare for lazy pursuits.

[Ad Hominem attack]Saying that he has low work ethic is just being jealous because he can survive on 3 comics of work a week and you have a family history of having really ****ty jobs. It doesn't matter that your father worked 60 hours a week for however long, or your grandfather was a coal-miner that never got sick leave for his horribly degenerative black-lung or whatever. [/attack]

Work ethic has nothing to do with how many hours a week you work. Hell, I work 40 hours a week and I have the ****tiest work ethic of anyone I know (well, of the people that have jobs). To quote Office Space "I'd say I do about 15 minutes of real, actual work each week."

[Sky_Schemer]

Another "sit down, shut up, stop asking questions" post. So I can't inquire about Mr. Burlew's professionalism unless my resume is bigger, longer, and thicker than his?

Actually, no, it wasn't. What he did is point out that Rich does more than three web comics a week as part of his job.

[CliveStaples]

You can't complain about professionalism in a case like this. You try to talk about authors who miss their deadlines, but the fact is that true authors have no deadlines, or at least not weekly deadlines. You try to make a comparison between Rich Burlew and the guy who wrote "Calvin and Hobbes" when the fact of the matter is that the deadline was set by the Newspaper, and not by the artist.

When he stopped writing new comic strips do you think he still held himself to a one comic a day deadline? That's absurd.

The fact of the matter is this: YOU are the consumer, NOT the employer, something your argument hinges on. Rich Burlew is Rich Burlew's employer. The whole point of creating a web-comic is to avoid such strenuos deadlines inflicted by other jobs and media. The argument just doesn't hold any water.

Updating his web-comic at three random times a week = updating his comic on three specific days a week.

Who are you to set professional standards on internet web-comics? The only one who's allowed to set those standards is the writer/artist themselves. As a consumer, you have nothing to do with the "professional" part of this, just the "supply and demand" part of it.

My argument hinges on whether or not Mr. Burlew is working to his uttermost. My position relative to him, whether in an employer-employee relationship or a supplier-consumer relationship, is irrelevant.

[Thes Hunter]

Mr. CliveStaples

There is an edit button, please use it because you do not need to double post.

[CliveStaples]

I am perturbed by YOU, Clive.

Rich Burlew is freaking ILL. He has a chronic illness and it comes and goes. May I remind you that this is a FREE webcomic, that HE spends HIS time and HIS creativity to put up for YOU, and there are STILL three updates a week any way! And what are YOU doing for HIM? Insulting him and berating him. For a favor that HE is doing for YOU.

Crazy world.

Condolences for your sick family members.

First, thank you for your concern.

I'm not insulting him or berating him. Like I said, I have no basis for drawing any conclusions about his medical condition. Additionally, if I do end up concluding that he is perhaps not working as hard as he could, that has no bearing on whether he's a good person or not. Indeed, he could very well be reassigning his workload, and this was simply the section that had to give.

I'm not lecturing Mr. Burlew, nor the OOTS community in general, about how much work he should be doing. I'm trying to have a discussion with other members in the community about what they think his decision means about his diligence, dedication, etc.

Unfortunately, I have to put your post in the "sit down, shut up, and stop asking questions" category. Yes, he provides the comic free of charge. That's his decision, not mine. And it doesn't somehow exclude him from criticism.

[iabervon]

Yes, if he were a professional, he'd wait ~2 weeks between drawing each strip and posting it, so that he could be pretty sure that he wouldn't miss a regular update. Professionalism comes from having a facade between the artist and the audience to cover for the normal variation in when the artist manages to make progress. OotS isn't using this facade, and it's better because it's not. For example, he wouldn't be able to mock the speculation in the forums. Just because something is professional doesn't mean it's better. There's a trade-off of things like interactivity and brilliance for things like reliability.

I think Rich ought to have some URL that's ~6 strips behind and always updates at fixed times, just to offer it as an alternative for people who complain. If you really want to be able to read a strip you've never seen at certain points each week, you could. Of course, other people will be reading ahead, and you'd have to have the willpower not to peek.

(On the other hand, I think Rich should let the Erfworld people upload their own comics, because not being available to apply updates for people you host is unprofessional in an undesireable and probably unnecessary way.)

[Rajhiim]

He doesn't owe us anything and likewise we owe him nothing.

Is he working to his fullest you ask? You would have to first define what that means, to work to your fullest...

Does that mean 24 hours a day/7 days a week? 25 minutes a day? Only when creativity strikes?

I am a writer and I will tell you it's tough sometimes. Sure, I can pump out 10 pages a day of crrrrra-pppppoooola... but that's not what I would 'share' with the masses. It would be an insult to the readers and to myself.

I, for one, am happy Mr. B is taking the time he needs. Physical health and mental health are both important.

If you are so insulted, perhaps you should start a webcomic and run it the way you see as appropriate?

[Dur]

My argument hinges on whether or not Mr. Burlew is working to his uttermost. My position relative to him, whether in an employer-employee relationship or a supplier-consumer relationship, is irrelevant.

It's entirely relevant. Without knowing explicitly what the health conditions that Mr. Burlew is facing, you can't draw conclusions based on professionalism. And we all no that you are not because no one beside Mr. Burlew and his doctor are.

The fact of the matter is this: an employer does know the condition his employees, in some form or another, and can decide whether or not that person is acting professionaly. A pregnant mother can't work through labor. Is she, therefore by you argument, not working to her full potential? If she gets the time required by law off, is she thus unprofessional? I'm not saying Rich is in labor, I sure hope he isn't (for obvious reasons), but you can't draw conclusions on a condition you know nothing about.

[The Giant]

Clive--

I encourage you, if my work ethic bothers you so much, to voice your protest by never reading anything I produce ever again. There are many comics out there that meet your standards, and I will not blame you one bit for going and reading them instead. In fact, I heartily recommend it, because I am done making myself sick to satisfy people such as yourself.

(Of course, if you simply stop reading the comic, then people won't be paying attention to you like they are now, which is almost certainly the real point of this thread. Well, that, and to try to skirt around our rules about flaming me by repeatedly "questioning" and "wondering" about my work ethic because you know you'll get in trouble for flat-out stating that you think I'm an unprofessional hack.)

If my decisions cause OOTS to lose money or go out of business, that's my problem. I fully accept that my choice to change the schedule will result in a reduced readership, and therefore, it's none of your business whether or not I can support myself with this or any other endeavor. I don't want your advice on what you think is best for me, because you don't have all of the facts (and intentionally so; it's called "privacy"). If I want to quit OOTS tomorrow and go into another line of work, that's my right, just as it's your right to walk into your boss' office and tell him or her that you quit. In effect, I've walked in and said, "Take it or leave it." If the readers decide to abandon OOTS in legions because of my decision, then eventually I will quit altogether and find a new job, and I won't regret any of it. As long as I honor any actual legal contracts that I've signed, and everyone who pays for a book gets a book, whether or not I continue to produce OOTS at the previous pace (or at all) is my decision alone.

So if that makes me unprofessional, then I'm unprofessional. I am definitely not working to the hardest that I could, because I am not willing to accept the health consequences of doing so. Your question has now been answered by the only person with the knowledge to do so, obviating the need for any further discussion.

Wow, you won the argument! Congratulations! Is it everything you ever dreamed of?

[CliveStaples]

Rich is his own boss, he do as he wants...

found it unethical? Sue him.

and then, shut up.

People keep throwing around the word "ethical". I'm not challenging him with being unethical--which usually involves underhandedness, deceit, or fraudulence--I'm wondering about his work ethic.

Not his professional ethics--the honor codes by which people conduct themselves in a particular industry, such as a criminal prosecutor disclosing any and all exculpatory evidence during discovery--but his work ethic.

I, of course, have no standing to sue him, since I haven't suffered a legally actionable harm.

At least you come right out and tell me to shut up; most people disguise their message behind righteous indignation.

[Dur]

Clive--

I encourage you, if my work ethic bothers you so much, to voice your protest by never reading anything I produce ever again. There are many comics out there that meet your standards, and I will not blame you one bit for going and reading them instead. In fact, I heartily recommend it, because I am done making myself sick to satisfy people such as yourself.

(Of course, if you simply stop reading the comic, then people won't be paying attention to you like they are now, which is almost certainly the real point of this thread. Well, that, and to try to skirt around our rules about flaming me by repeatedly "questioning" and "wondering" about my work ethic because you know you'll get in trouble for flat-out stating that you think I'm an unprofessional hack.)

If my decisions cause OOTS to lose money or go out of business, that's my problem. I fully accept that my choice to change the schedule will result in a reduced readership, and therefore, it's none of your business whether or not I can support myself with this or any other endeavor. I don't want your advice on what you think is best for me, because you don't have all of the facts (and intentionally so; it's called "privacy"). If I want to quit OOTS tomorrow and go into another line of work, that's my right, just as it's your right to walk into your boss' office and tell him or her that you quit. In effect, I've walked in and said, "Take it or leave it." If the readers decide to abandon OOTS in legions because of my decision, then eventually I will quit altogether and find a new job, and I won't regret any of it. As long as I honor any actual legal contracts that I've signed, and everyone who pays for a book gets a book, whether or not I continue to produce OOTS at the previous pace (or at all) is my decision alone.

So if that makes me unprofessional, then I'm unprofessional. I am definitely not working to the hardest that I could, because I am not willing to accept the health consequences of doing so. Your question has now been answered by the only person with the knowledge to do so, obviating the need for any further discussion.

Wow, you won the argument! Congratulations! Is it everything you ever dreamed of?


*Claps emphaticly!*

[Nyalee]

It isn't about whether the deadlines are set or fluid. It's about whether you can keep to your commitment.


Well, he DOES keep to his commitments, otherwise he wouldn't have changed them, would he?
So he isn't able to keep his original commitment, he gives a new one.
For me, that's perfectly acceptable.
I mean, better to know that he can't update regularly at the moment as to wait every third day for the new strip and being disappointed because it isn't there.

And yes I believe he ist really ill and not able to his work the way he probably himself would want to. ( I know, irrelevant but I mention ist all the same)
So really what are you complaining about? He does what he says he does, and if you don't like his schedule, you needn't read his comics oder buy his books anymore.

As said before, we're not his bosses, we're customers, so of course we can complain, but it's up to him if he will listen to us.
If he doesn't he may loose customers, but what if he doesn't care? Thats totally his decision. It might not be for his advantage, but he has to live with it if he does and when hee's able to do that, he can do whatever he likes.
And by the way, you're really expecting work-ethic like you described it, from an ARTIST??

If he would be employed to do his comic, ok....but as an self-employee I think you really can't expect him working from morning till evening only on the comic. Might be bad work-ethic, but again, it's his way to do things and when he can live with it and from it, he won't be bothered by any complaints.

This was just my 2 cents, got a bit longer than planned, sorry.

(thanks to the Giant to confirm my theories :smallbiggrin:)

[Krytha]

Ok, well I think we've reached the spin cycle in this thread.

Attitude: Look at your original post and compare it to other posts which whine about schedule updates. It may not have been your intention, but they are uncannily similar. Yes, people are getting the rude vibe from you.

Webcomic artists: The field is relatively new, there is no precedent, no webcomic is the same, they are essentially incomparable to each other and other forms of media.

Clive: You have a set definition of what it means to work "hard", to have a good work ethic. It doesn't mesh with a lot of peoples' definition, people who may or may not have had the same working background as you.

Regardless, who are you to judge whether another person is working "hard" without ever meeting them, without knowing the full circumstances which surround them, without having any experience in the field that they are working in? I (and many others) find it discourteous that you question the Giant's efforts despite knowing that he claims to be afflicted by something truly harmful.

Yes, you can question all you want, but that doesn't make it seem less harsh and unfair. Additionally, you stated that you know nothing about the man. I'm willing to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, especially since he has given me no reason to question him or his products in the past.

Finally, in relation to your "updated" question: I believe the Giant is working to the best of his ability. His work-ethic is far greater than it needs to be.

[TRM]

If Rich simply took a vacation (like, I don't know, one in August) would his work ethic still be poor because of his want of a vacation (for a "product" which his is unobligated to produce)? If he is perfectly willing to state that he is taking a vacation, I find it unlikely that he is lying to avoid creating his FREE comic (yes, it's free. Yes that has been said before.)


What I see here is one guy voicing a rather refreshing opinion, with everyone else attacking him with generic, canned responses such as, "omg it's free comic!" and "u no like u go away noob!"
Just because it is refreshing does not make it either correct or fair to mr. burlew.


I applaud you, Clive. You're backing up what you said originally.
QFT. Sticking with what you believe in is hard work! :smallcool: Great job, man.



I consume his product. I have a vested interest in whether or not he maintains his product.
His webcomic is not a product. It is an advertisement (and a jolly good one at that!). IMHO there is no reason to complain or to question his work ethic. I think he has done a perfectly good job by (1) creating FREE (yes it has still been said before)-and high quality- comics and (2) telling us about his schedule changes (for the FREE comic that he GIVES us).

[Jefepato]

Mr. Burlew has an obligation to provide the products that people are buying from him. So far, I have received every product for which I have paid, and been very satisfied with all of them.

So I don't really see the relevance of questioning his work ethic. I don't know the man personally, so I can't speak as to the severity of his illness, but it's not really my business (and I have no reason to doubt him). He's lived up to his responsibilities to us; since he is self-employed, when it comes to how hard he actually works, he is responsible to no one but himself.

As far as I know, he is successfully making a living off his products, with whatever his work ethic may be. If he wasn't, he would probably be begging for money accepting donations like some webcomic artists I could name, rather than taking money only in exchange for tangible products. So what does it really matter?

...and my impending post has been utterly ninja'd by the man himself. Well played, Giant.

[Documn]

So here's what I think.

This is what I don't like about Rich's work ethic. I don't like that fact that he's bound himself to a schedule that he probably won't be able to keep because of his illness. Personally I wouldn't make a promise like that because that's just not the way I like to do things.

Here's what I like about Rich's work ethic. I like how he's still producing quality comics despite his illness. I like how he can look past the whiny idiots and continue to give his fans what they want.

[DraxtonSmitz]

SCRUBBED for masked language and flaming.

[ingtar33]

Its sad this topic keeps coming up. It was a thread like this that caused me to post for the very first time on these forums in this thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6400

For brevity, I'll post my comment, verbatim.


Heya.

First post. :D In fact this is the first time I’ve entered the forums (in spite of owning both books)

I just had to say I appreciate what Rick is doing, and sadly it doesn't surprise me at all the criticism he's taking...

There will always be greedy people who believe they're entitled to other people's sweat, effort, and time. This staggering sense of entitlement is most common in little children, aged 14 and younger...

Worse then anything that was written in these complaints was the nonchalant disregard of Rick's health, implied within their words; the callous assumption that his health is not in serious risk. The fallacious and selfish belief that his health is subservient to their need for entertainment.

Consider those posts a lesson in greed.

When a man goes out of his way to help me, or make me smile, I don't throw a fit if he isn't there to do the same tomorrow, I thank him from the bottom of my heart and look to give him a hand up if he needs one.

It's a comic strip.

Remember, it was the demand of daily production that cost us all the Far Side... as Gary Larson one day, looked around and said "I’ve got money, why am I busting my hump to produce daily"

I hope you're enjoying the holiday season Rick
I sincerely hope you get better, take all the time you need.

I really hope those of you demanding gratification now, take some time to consider, there are more important things in the world then your pleasure.

[Krytha]

So here's what I think.

This is what I don't like about Rich's work ethic. I don't like that fact that he's bound himself to a schedule that he probably won't be able to keep because of his illness. Personally I wouldn't make a promise like that because that's just not the way I like to do things.

Well, since the schedule is... that there is no longer a schedule, I guess you'll have to like his work ethic after all.

[EvilElitest]

Doesn't "I'll get around to my job whenever I feel like it" smack a bit of unprofessionalism? I mean, if you're gonna do this as a job, not as a side-project, just-for-the-hell-of-it hobby, shouldn't you maintain professional standards?

I guess not =/

Their is a system for this. If Rich belonged to a buiness then yes his attutude would be different.

However, this comic is his job, and guess what.


He is the boss. He writes the comic, controls the website, oversees the mods and maitaining the site, and he allows us to view it for free.

he makes the T-shirts and books and games that we buy, and that along with donations is how he makes his money.
So for proffesional standards, absolutily. It is insulting to surggest that a guy who is apperently to sick to get out of bed should hold himself to proffesional standards when he is his own boss and running a webcomic.
his webcomic, his rules.
from,
EE

[rashambo]

Will you just ignore this troll? He will go away. He really doesn't feel that way, he's just trying to get a little internet attention. He's probably a regular on Fark, they just ignore people better.

I'll admit, you even got Rich to bite. *golf clap*

Now go away, troll.

[CliveStaples]

Clive--

I encourage you, if my work ethic bothers you so much, to voice your protest by never reading anything I produce ever again. There are many comics out there that meet your standards, and I will not blame you one bit for going and reading them instead. In fact, I heartily recommend it, because I am done making myself sick to satisfy people such as yourself.

(Of course, if you simply stop reading the comic, then people won't be paying attention to you like they are now, which is almost certainly the real point of this thread. Well, that, and to try to skirt around our rules about flaming me by repeatedly "questioning" and "wondering" about my work ethic because you know you'll get in trouble for flat-out stating that you think I'm an unprofessional hack.)

If my decisions cause OOTS to lose money or go out of business, that's my problem. I fully accept that my choice to change the schedule will result in a reduced readership, and therefore, it's none of your business whether or not I can support myself with this or any other endeavor. I don't want your advice on what you think is best for me, because you don't have all of the facts (and intentionally so; it's called "privacy"). If I want to quit OOTS tomorrow and go into another line of work, that's my right, just as it's your right to walk into your boss' office and tell him or her that you quit. In effect, I've walked in and said, "Take it or leave it." If the readers decide to abandon OOTS in legions because of my decision, then eventually I will quit altogether and find a new job, and I won't regret any of it. As long as I honor any actual legal contracts that I've signed, and everyone who pays for a book gets a book, whether or not I continue to produce OOTS at the previous pace (or at all) is my decision alone.

So if that makes me unprofessional, then I'm unprofessional. I am definitely not working to the hardest that I could, because I am not willing to accept the health consequences of doing so. Your question has now been answered by the only person with the knowledge to do so, obviating the need for any further discussion.

Wow, you won the argument! Congratulations! Is it everything you ever dreamed of?

Sir, I do not consider you an unprofessional hack. As I stated, the point of this thread was not to challenge your professional ethics: if you were not studiously ethical in the ins and outs of your professional relationships, you would not enjoy the fruitful relationships you have now with your publishers and other employers.

It is not my goal to get attention, nor to find clever and devious ways to flame you. I was simply trying to have a discussion about what other people thought of your most recent news regarding the OOTS webcomic. My first thought, born of my experience with fellow employees, was that you were perhaps taking it easy. Instead of regaling you with such an accusation, I decided to share it with the community and see what others thought. As I said, I am willing to be persuaded.

I have stated repeatedly, but to not apparent avail, that I have absolutely no basis to draw any sort of conclusion about your medical condition, because you have chosen to keep it private--which is perfectly within your province. My goal in creating this thread was to see what other peoples' reactions were, and to use them to gauge my own. It was certainly not to offer you professional advice, nor to pry into your personal life.

I have read your webcomics for quite some time. I consider myself part of the OOTS community. As such, I thought that the OOTS forums was an appropriate place to have this discussion. Given the majority of responses on this thread, however, it seems that my opinions aren't welcome.

This wasn't supposed to be about winning an argument. It was supposed to be about what other people had to say. But that seems to be irrelevant now.

[Daimbert]

The hypotenuse of the dilithium crystals are chromosomal to the antidisestablishmentarianism with prophetic nonsensical overtones in the plutonium!

What I see here is one guy voicing a rather refreshing opinion, with everyone else attacking him with generic, canned responses such as, "omg it's free comic!" and "u no like u go away noob!"


Oh, please. Most of us have FAR better grammar than that [grin].



I applaud you, Clive. You're backing up what you said originally, even though it's obviously not the popular, or proper opinion around here, and you're doing it with tact and and courtesy, even though everyone else is pretty much telling you to shut up and sit down.

Hmmmm. I've tried to engage his points in a direct manner and even tried to extract a potential valid point from them -- and seemed to have done it wrong. If our rebuttals are incorrect, it would be much better if you simply pointed out where we went wrong instead of claiming that he had tact and courtesy and indirectly implying that we do not ...

(Vaarsuvian phrasing not entirely unintentional [grin]).

[The Giant]

My goal in creating this thread was to see what other peoples' reactions were, and to use them to gauge my own. (SNIP) This wasn't supposed to be about winning an argument. It was supposed to be about what other people had to say.

This might have been true, if you hadn't attempted to respond to each and every post here with a dissenting opinion. If you were only interested in what other people had to say, then you would not have needed to debate them about it.

At any rate, since you have had plenty of responses by which to judge, then your stated reason for this thread is no longer valid, and it need not be open any longer.