Wizard solutions to 3.5?

[rockdeworld]

I've heard "3.5 is solved", "wizard can handle anything", and the like tossed around, and wanted to know: has anyone actually taken the time to create an encounter-by-encounter list of tactics that a wizard can use to win the encounter?

E.g.
1. Lemure - x, y, z
2. Imp - t, u, v
etc.

Some of them are obvious, e.g. "All corporeal creatures CR 1-4: cast Color Spray, get a fighter to beat them up"

But more interesting to me are the non-obvious ones, e.g. Flesh Golem or Mr. T, the latter of which is something more like "pay money to get 2 level 13 clerics, capture a slew of Allips, cast Reverse Gravity on an open field while the Tarrasque inhabits it so Mr. T floats above the ground unable to escape, summon 12 Allips with Summon Undead, command the Allips to strike the creature until it's unconscious. Release Reverse Gravity, and pay money to get some high-level fighters to attack it until it's got negative HP. Then use Wish to kill it." (Ideally we could do this all with Wizard 20 without help.)

Are there any tactics handbooks that show how to solve 3.5 like that?

[Venger]

I've heard "3.5 is solved", "wizard can handle anything", and the like tossed around, and wanted to know: has anyone created an actual list of tactics by monster that a wizard can use to win an encounter?

Some of them are obvious, e.g. "All corporeal creatures CR 1-4: cast Color Spray, get a fighter to beat them up"

But more interesting to me are the non-obvious ones, e.g. Flesh Golem or Mr. T, the latter of which is something more like "pay money to get 2 level 13 clerics, capture a slew of Allips, cast Reverse Gravity on an open field while the Tarrasque inhibits it so it floats above the ground unable to escape, command the Allips to strike the creature until it's unconscious. Release Reverse Gravity, and pay money to get some high-level fighters to attack it until it's got negative HP. Then use Wish to kill it." (Ideally we could do this all with Wizard 20 without help.)

Are there any tactics handbooks that show how to solve 3.5 like that?

you can just cast summon undead for the allips. you don't need all that other stuff, the joker has no power to beat on incorporeal monsters.

yes there are (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0)

[Troacctid]

90%+ of encounters can be solved with damage, so it's not like you need to be super creative.

[Erit]

90%+ of encounters can be solved with damage, so it's not like you need to be super creative.

The other 10% can be solved by a different kind of damage.

[Endarire]

Soloing Curse of the Crimson Throne: From the Start Until the World Opens Up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?325310-3-5-Soloing-Curse-of-the-Crimson-Throne-From-the-Start-Until-the-World-Opens-Up).

That gives an idea.

Charm spells, summon spells, invisibility, and mobiity (like teleport) are very handy for such!

[rockdeworld]

you can just cast summon undead for the allips. you don't need all that other stuff, the joker has no power to beat on incorporeal monsters.

yes there are (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0)
Hey thanks! I like the link (and I missed summon undead). Unfortunately the guide says nothing about monster-specific tactics, which is what I was asking about.


90%+ of encounters can be solved with damage, so it's not like you need to be super creative.
That doesn't answer my question, and is notably wrong when your opponents can kill you faster than you can kill them through straight damage (like a moderately-optimized barbarian).

If you want to say "that's in the <10%", I would ask you to make an actual list of encounters to prove your claim.


Soloing Curse of the Crimson Throne: From the Start Until the World Opens Up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?325310-3-5-Soloing-Curse-of-the-Crimson-Throne-From-the-Start-Until-the-World-Opens-Up).
Cool story, thanks for sharing!

[ryu]

Hey thanks! I like the link (and I missed summon undead). Unfortunately the guide says nothing about monster-specific tactics, which is what I was asking about.


That doesn't answer my question, and is notably wrong when your opponents can kill you faster than you can kill them through straight damage (like a moderately-optimized barbarian).

If you want to say "that's in the <10%", I would ask you to make an actual list of encounters to prove your claim.


Cool story, thanks for sharing!

The problem with barbarians is that unlike wizards they don't have some of the heaviest optimization potential in the game for going first, ranged attacks, the ability to fly, the ability to stack chances for attacks to automatically miss them, the ability to summon hoards of minions to get in the way of melee people, or any number of other fun tricks. Melee damage dealers are some of the least threatening things in this entire game.

[exelsisxax]

The problem with barbarians is that unlike wizards they don't have some of the heaviest optimization potential in the game for going first, ranged attacks, the ability to fly, the ability to stack chances for attacks to automatically miss them, the ability to summon hoards of minions to get in the way of melee people, or any number of other fun tricks. Melee damage dealers are some of the least threatening things in this entire game.

Unless they go first and are 10' away from you.

Then you're in some serious trouble.

[ryu]

Unless they go first and are 10' away from you.

Then you're in some serious trouble.

No. Then you still have abrupt jaunt, contingency, celerity, astral projection, hide life, and do I need to keep going? I can keep going. That's before we even talk about how stupidly unlikely the wizard not going first is when they have nervskitter, hummingbird familiar, Dex as a secondary stat, any number of divination effects to plan and set the battlefield, not to mention being invisible, flying, and a dire tortoise that always acts in the surprise round.

Not to mention that even if you do ''kill'' the wizard they probably aren't even actually dead thanks to spells like simalcrum, ice assassin, astral projection, clone, and do I really need to keep going? Wizard against melee is like wolf versus sheep, commoner versus dragon, commoner riding dragon throwing wolves at sheep.

[rockdeworld]

<snip>
While potentially edifying, this discussion is really going off-topic. Yes, a wizard can beat a barbarian, once they utilize their non-damage-based spells. But that's one matchup, which was made as a counterpoint to the claim that a wizard can beat 90% of enemies with damage alone (and this discussion isn't even following those assumptions).

What about the rest of the encounters?

[ryu]

While potentially edifying, this discussion is really going off-topic. Yes, a wizard can beat a barbarian, once they utilize their non-damage-based spells. But that's one matchup, which was made as a counterpoint to the claim that a wizard can beat 90% of enemies with damage alone (and this discussion isn't even following those assumptions).

What about the rest of the encounters?

I would like to take a moment to remind you that I was neither of the people holding up damage as the most powerful thing in this system. It will commonly be the final thing that ends an encounter, but this is not equivalent to saying it's the reason the encounter was won. Most everyone can do damage to a fair degree of competency.

No the real power of wizards and other casters lies in versatility and unique utility. As a wizard or other similar class you'll easily have access to hundreds of different actions you can take to approach problems from different angles if not thousands. This is because you have access to a wide variety of spells. Some will be situational but incredibly powerful in the situation that calls for them. Others have such wide applicability as to be able to solve a frighteningly large number of problems. You can also do things other people can't.

A fighter has no flight class feature, no invisibility, pitifully little ability to pump initiative, no ability to pull actions out of thin air, no ability to use divinations to plan the future, no ability to alter their shape to adapt to a situation, no defense to elemental damage, no miss chance manipulation, no good ranged attacks, no ability to shrug off death with contemptuous ease, no teleportation, no plane shifting, no summoning for even broader access to spells, for that matter no minion manipulation of any kind.

Now you may respond to this by saying it's too broad, that it doesn't answer your question. The reason it's difficult to completely outline what makes wizards and other casters great beyond vague statements is that there is truly a great deal to cover. In truth I spent literal years becoming as good with wizard as I am now, and I had access to internet and the work of others to guide the process. By all means pose a problem or encounter and what resources the given wizard has access to in terms of level, any available teammates, and time to prepare and I'll tell you the first solution that comes to mind.

[ExLibrisMortis]

While potentially edifying, this discussion is really going off-topic. Yes, a wizard can beat a barbarian, once they utilize their non-damage-based spells. But that's one matchup, which was made as a counterpoint to the claim that a wizard can beat 90% of enemies with damage alone (and this discussion isn't even following those assumptions).

What about the rest of the encounters?
We can phrase a slightly more extensive version of what Troacctid rightly said: 90% of all encounters can be solved with damage, therefore a wizard, being nigh invulnerable under standard buff spells and having large amounts of time, does not have to be creative.

For the other 10%, there's planar binding/polymorph. Or ice assassin/shapechange, if you're that strong.

[rockdeworld]

Those are really not helpful responses. Versatility is useless without knowledge of how to apply it, so just saying "the real power of wizards and other casters lies in versatility and unique utility" actually does not answer the question.

By the same token, "standard buff spells" is a completely vague term that could mean to 50 different things to 50 different people.

I appreciate everyone's attempts to help. All I'm saying is that so far you haven't addressed the actual question in my OP.

[Nifft]

Those are really not helpful responses. Versatility is useless without knowledge of how to apply it, so just saying "the real power of wizards and other casters lies in versatility and unique utility" actually does not answer the question.

By the same token, "standard buff spells" is a completely vague term that could mean to 50 different things to 50 different people.

I appreciate everyone's attempts to help. All I'm saying is that so far you haven't addressed the actual question in my OP.

They are helpful responses, if you know the system well enough to already know why they're true. Which the people responding do.

You're looking for someone who has the time, patience, and talent to explain what system mastery means within this system, yet somehow make that concept brief enough to fit in a post and also simple enough to be understood by someone like you ... someone who has not made an effort to learn anything about what "solves" the system.

My advice: you will have far more success if you embrace the system and learn why some things are good, rather than trying to learn what good means without touching any of the things.

Make a Wizard. Read a Wizard guide. Play the Wizard to win.

Make a Druid. Read another Wizard guide. Play the Druid to win.

Make an Artificer. Read. Win.

Make a Cleric. Read. Win.

Make a Warlock. Cry. Win anyway.

[Fizban]

I think the OP contradicts itself a bit, which lends to the confusion: you can make a list of ways to kill every monster, and you can make a list of ways for a wizard to kill things, but those are different lists. The solution for any given wizard varies hugely based on what spells they know (as in right now, when it matters), what the encounter situation/timeline/world is, and what information they actually have. It depends on their build, as people can rattle off borked ACFs all day but surprise, not all wizards have those. Every insta-win spell has things that are immune to it, so a list in line with the color spray example will essentially just be a list of all the most powerful spells at each level-much easier to just look at a handbook, as their favorite thing to do is color code everything by power level.

Making a general list of what spells to prepare in order to win against anything is a more useful question, I'm sure there's a couple of threads on it. Actually applying those spells properly to a given encounter, the actual problems that need to be solved, it still up to the player.,

[Troacctid]

You might be interested in Person_Man's Niche Ranking System (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314701-Person_Man-s-Niche-Ranking-System), which describes 17 major types of abilities that a D&D party might need.

[Fouredged Sword]

I think 3.5 is solved in the sense that, within the rules as stated, a level one character can best any challenge listed in the books with an application of Pun-Pun.

It's a mathematically "perfect" way to play to overcome any problem.

Within the greater 3.5 gaming community there is no such simplicity. The game was never intended to be run by a "dumb" dm. I use the term "dumb" in the sense of non-reactive.

With a sane DM wizards are still generally considered the "best" class in 3.5 in that they can solve all problems a party can face within the context of an adventure.

I have run all wizard games before and it worked pretty well for the wizards. (IC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?333192-Moldrake-s-IC-A) OO (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?332973-Moldrake-s-School-OOC-Group-A)C)

The system provides pretty effective work arounds to all vital game systems except for spellcasting. There is no cost effective way to replace a wizard in the party. This makes wizard the most important class.

[ExLibrisMortis]

By the same token, "standard buff spells" is a completely vague term that could mean to 50 different things to 50 different people.

I appreciate everyone's attempts to help. All I'm saying is that so far you haven't addressed the actual question in my OP.
You're quite right, but you're also asking for a lot of work on our part. There are a lot of possible encounters, and a lot of ways to solve those encounters, with different costs, appropriate to different games. For our purposes, it's much more efficient to provide an abstract example of a problem-solving wizard, and let you infer the missing bits.

For a less abstract look at wizards, see Team Solar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?188138-Team-Solars-(Archiving)) and Team Primeval (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?201638-Team-Primeval). They give great impressions of pretty high-OP buff routines. Note that the team members are not all wizards, but wizards play an important part in setting up the whole party, and primary casters rule the roost.

[Bad Wolf]

Calling a Young Adult Prismatic Dragon solves a lot of things, from what I've seen.

[barakaka]

Well, I understand from the edit on the OP that he's got some system mastery and was just looking for some specific tactic examples. I only have enough time for one example right now though.

To pull this type of thing off at higher levels with less chance of dying, you may need any one of these to act in the surprise round:

Jungle Veteran feat
Polymorph into dire tortoise
Foresight


Against THAT DAMNED CRAB (the awesome melee wizard way, not the lame ranged crap):
This is a CR 3. This assumes your DM has you fight it at level 3. You'll probably need a scroll of Shivering Touch and Abjurant Jaunt to take it down by yourself. You'd best cast a true strike/wraith strike so you have a good shot at hitting and a summon spell as a speed bump for it.