Is this Psionic or Psychic? An index of various series and characters

[Thealtruistorc]

So, there is sort of a fair amount of confusion in my group when it comes to differentiating which power sources are psionic and which are psychic in my games, and I envision that I'm not alone in experiencing this. Hence, I've decided to concoct a special something to sort of organize and categorize what I believe to be separate psionic and psychic abilities in media.

Now, these may be questionable, and are subject to some potential for change, but I'm sort of curious as to what you guys can come up with and I envision that this will be handy for separating the fluff of psychic power from psionic power in some games. Input and additions are appreciated.

Psionic Manifesting

Bene Gesserit abilities (Dune)-Abilities that come from genetic abilities and internal mastery, closely related to biology in terms of source and form
Mutant Gene (X-Men)-Psychokinetic abilities involve imposing one's will on the world using force where there previously was none, also genetic
Elder God/Great Old One Abilities (Cthulhu Mythos)-Operate by imposing will on the universe and changing it simply through those means, creating a new reality rather than working in association with an existing one
Enhancements (Akira)-Originate from inner source of power, not tied or bound by existing physics or concepts.


Psychic Spellcasting

The Force (Star Wars)-a universal power that binds the universe together, permeating everything and thus enabling people to change things as a result
The Noise (Chaos Walking)-presence that surrounds the setting and unifies all creatures within, tied to environment
Matrix Abilities (The Matrix)-all powers draw from understanding and manipulating the code that makes up the matrix, originating not from one's own abilities but their relationship with the universe around them

[KillianHawkeye]

Hey. Not to criticize, but can you explain why you think that psychic and psionic are different things in D&D? As far as I know, they're two words with essentially the same meaning. :smallconfused:

[Knitifine]

Hey. Not to criticize, but can you explain why you think that psychic and psionic are different things in D&D? As far as I know, they're two words with essentially the same meaning. :smallconfused:In Pathfinder, Paizo released a book called Occult Adventures which included Psychic Magic. A 3rd Party Publisher had already released a popular psionics update to Pathfinder, and some people prefer to use both even though they tend to step on each other's toes a lot.

This is the psion. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psion)

This is the psychic. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/occult-adventures/occult-classes/psychic)

[Knitifine]

As to the original poster. Here is what I would say.

You shouldn't include both psionics and psychic magic in the same game. They step on eachothers toes way too much.

That said, if you want to create some kind of divide between them, I suggest making psychic magic about the past, and psionics about the future.

Many parts of psychic magic reference ancient or dead things, and many parts of psionic magic reference alterations to the current reality.

You could make it so that psychic magic is powered by the mystical significance of the things that came before, while psionic magic is powered by the mystic potential of the future.

[digiman619]

Personally, I'd suggest renaming Psychic Magic as Soul Magic if you use the two in the same campaign.

[Psyren]

I use them interchangeably, it's much simpler. It's all "mind magic."

Psychic Magic solves a number of issues that I had with psionics so I generally use that as the baseline, and convert any unique powers that I had need of (which isn't many) into psychic spells as needed.

[Segev]

I use them interchangeably, it's much simpler. It's all "mind magic."

Psychic Magic solves a number of issues that I had with psionics so I generally use that as the baseline, and convert any unique powers that I had need of (which isn't many) into psychic spells as needed.

Not to say Psyren is wrong, but just to point out how opinions can differ, I actually feel rather the opposite. I think psionics capture the feel of "mind powers" better than "psychic magic" does, as presented.

That said, I've come to accept that it works well for "occult" feels that are more of the pulp occult detective mystery variety.

...come to think of it, is it just me, or is Paizo pushing an Indiana Jones-era/pulp-Western feel pretty hard in their material lately?

[Psyren]

The reason I use them interchangeably - in Golarion, psionics existed in the setting prior to Pathfinder, primarily in Vudra but also places like Vairisa and Osirion. When PF and later Occult Mysteries came out, the psionic parts of those regions switched wholesale to Psychic Magic. So if the designers themselves see them as being interchangeable, I see no reason to create extra work for myself by behaving differently.

I acknowledge that there are mechanical and even some fluff differences between the two, I just don't see those distinctions as being important enough to justify both needing to exist separately. A psychic and a psion both think at things to make a wide variety of preternatural effects happen; anything beyond that is largely semantics as far as I'm concerned.

[Lord_Gareth]

As to the original poster. Here is what I would say.

You shouldn't include both psionics and psychic magic in the same game. They step on eachothers toes way too much.

That said, if you want to create some kind of divide between them, I suggest making psychic magic about the past, and psionics about the future.

Many parts of psychic magic reference ancient or dead things, and many parts of psionic magic reference alterations to the current reality.

You could make it so that psychic magic is powered by the mystical significance of the things that came before, while psionic magic is powered by the mystic potential of the future.

We (Dreamscarred Press) actually touch on and then thoroughly explore this in Psionics Augmented: Occult. If you'd care to join the conversation, the playtest is here: Psionics Augmented: Occult (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472513-Dreamscarred-Press-Psionics-Augmented-Occult). You should note that the playtest is currently closed, though some related work should be coming in shortly.


The reason I use them interchangeably - in Golarion, psionics existed in the setting prior to Pathfinder, primarily in Vudra but also places like Vairisa and Osirion. When PF and later Occult Mysteries came out, the psionic parts of those regions switched wholesale to Psychic Magic. So if the designers themselves see them as being interchangeable, I see no reason to create extra work for myself by behaving differently.

I acknowledge that there are mechanical and even some fluff differences between the two, I just don't see those distinctions as being important enough to justify both needing to exist separately. A psychic and a psion both think at things to make a wide variety of preternatural effects happen; anything beyond that is largely semantics as far as I'm concerned.

Emphasis mine.

You remember back in the Pathfinder Alpha and Beta when Jason and Sean suggested that they were going to do psionics? Do you recall them lovingly describing how they'd get rid of power points and everything that made psionics itself in favor of turning it into a generic vancian subsystem? Do you remember them getting shouted down and berated so hard it took them nearly a decade to decide to try it? Because I do. The designers never thought they were interchangeable, it just took them this long to decide that their fanbase forgot the original series of events. Flavor-wise, and mechanics-wise, there's no interchangeability whatsoever and your claim to the contrary is over-simplistic and, frankly, more than a little irritating.

As for your second paragraph, see the playtest.

EDIT: And as far as 'the designers' claiming there's interchangeability, do you not recall Erik Mona's rather touching endorsement of psionics during the Occult Adventures announcement, his firm statement that the work in the book is not psionics, and his suggestion that those seeking psionics pursue our work on the matter?

[Alea]

Psychic magic is poorly named. It only has that name so Paizo could cut into some of psionics’ fanbase. It would be far more aptly named if it were called Occult Magic (per the book it came from, Occult Adventures), or Soul Magic maybe (per the other suggestion in this thread). It is emphatically not mind magic, despite the name.

Psionic powers are also not really mind magic, either. You say “mind magic” to me, I’m thinking Enchantment, not any type of magic.

However, naming issues aside, the two are quite distinct if you read into their details.

Psychic Occult magic is the magic of connections—emotional, historical, spiritual, conceptual, etc. People, places, objects, and ideas have power due to their relationships to other things, and by manipulating one you can manipulate others. Everything is interconnected, and the occult mage can see and use this.
Psionic power is the power of the self—“I reject your reality and substitute my own.” It has no external power source, but rather relies solely on the manifester influencing the world around him or her. Power comes from within—not through connections, not through gods or ideals, and not through the cosmos itself (as with occult, divine, and arcane magic, respectively).

Anyway, I mostly agree with OP’s breakdown, at least for the ones I’m familiar with. Not familiar with Akira or Chaos Walking. The one I’m not sure I buy though, is the powers of the One in the Matrix. Ultimately, as usual, D&D is bad at modeling characters from other fictional narratives, and the Matrix is a very different narrative. Those powers don’t neatly fit in one of these categories. I could make decent arguments for psionic or occult, or arcane or divine, really, since

The powers are literally built into the Matrix and the “gods” of the setting give him those powers.

[CharonsHelper]

...come to think of it, is it just me, or is Paizo pushing an Indiana Jones-era/pulp-Western feel pretty hard in their material lately?

Somewhat - but Paizo tends to publish things in themed chunks.

Not too long after Occult Adventures, they published Horror Adventures, and now they're publishing Strange Aeons which is a more pulp/Lovecraft style adventure which draws pretty heavily from Occult Adventures, fighting NPCs with classes from there and make mention of the optional sanity rules from Horror Adventures. etc.

I figure that they do APs that way in part to encourage people to buy the new books, and they do the books that way because as they're designing for the first book there will be overflow which also fits the theme of the next book.


The one I’m not sure I buy though, is the powers of the One in the Matrix. Ultimately, as usual, D&D is bad at modeling characters from other fictional narratives, and the Matrix is a very different narrative.

The best representation in Pathfinder would probably be the Unchained Monk with a template on top called "The One" which gives him boosted stats, flight, and the ability to stop bullets.

[Segev]

Somewhat - but Paizo tends to publish things in themed chunks.

Not too long after Occult Adventures, they published Horror Adventures, and now they're publishing Strange Aeons which is a more pulp/Lovecraft style adventure which draws pretty heavily from Occult Adventures, fighting NPCs with classes from there and make mention of the optional sanity rules from Horror Adventures. etc.That doesn't surprise me; Lovecraft kind of branches out of the occult pulp genre. It just goes deeper into the rabbit hole in terms of the source/kind of power that is out there.

[Alea]

The best representation in Pathfinder would probably be the Unchained Monk with a template on top called "The One" which gives him boosted stats, flight, and the ability to stop bullets.
No, really, the only representation of the One in Pathfinder is “no, stop, Pathfinder is not and cannot be the Matrix, things are just too different and this character makes no sense in this context.”

[Psyren]

It is emphatically not mind magic, despite the name.

Psionic powers are also not really mind magic, either. You say “mind magic” to me, I’m thinking Enchantment, not any type of magic.

Well if you're operating off a different definition than Paizo, DSP and even WotC are using, then yeah, you're going to have pretty fundamental disagreements. That doesn't make those other perspectives wrong :smalltongue:

XPH: "Simply put, psionics is the art of tapping the mind’s potential. A psionic character is blessed with a form of innate ability that enables him or her to use mental power to achieve goals or perform tasks that nonpsionic characters can accomplish—if they’re even capable of doing them at all—only by using gross physical skills such as brute strength or raw agility, or by using intellect or force of will distinct from the natural power of the mind itself."


UPsi: "Psionics, in its simplest form, is harnessing the power of the mind and using it to perform tasks, feats, and awe-inspiring acts. It is the act of using the mental power innate in a psionic character to perform actions that others deem impossible."


OcA:"Practitioners of occult lore often refer to the hidden magical traditions of the occult as 'psychic magic.' Casting a psychic spell relies entirely on the thoughts and emotions surging through your mind and spirit, rather than on incantations or gestures. In this way, occult practitioners can hide in plain sight amongst other spellcasters."
...
"Psychic magic originates from the distinctive qualities of the caster’s composite being, rather than through arcane formulae or rote supplication to divine entities."

About the only difference between Psionics and "Psychics" from a practical standpoint is that psychic magic relies on emotion and thought equally. Psionics meanwhile leaves emotion purely up to classes like the Wilder. I think this is a disservice - after all, emotions are as much an intrinsic part of our minds as rational thought. So I think making that aspect baseline was a good change.

When all three of those sources use phrases like "power of the mind", they're not limiting themselves merely to enchantments or other effects that act directly on an enemy's mind - rather, they're focusing on the source of the power and the means of realizing it in the world. Namely, thinking at things.



However, naming issues aside, the two are quite distinct if you read into their details.

Psychic Occult magic is the magic of connections—emotional, historical, spiritual, conceptual, etc. People, places, objects, and ideas have power due to their relationships to other things, and by manipulating one you can manipulate others. Everything is interconnected, and the occult mage can see and use this.
Psionic power is the power of the self—“I reject your reality and substitute my own.” It has no external power source, but rather relies solely on the manifester influencing the world around him or her. Power comes from within—not through connections, not through gods or ideals, and not through the cosmos itself (as with occult, divine, and arcane magic, respectively).

I disagree; those connections you mention only matter because they matter to the caster. They are not external or objective. When I use my wedding ring as a material component to bring back my dead wife, it's because that object has special meaning to me. Another psychic (nor I myself) could not use my wedding ring to bring back the murdered town mayor, even using the same spell.


As for The One in Pathfinder, all you really need there is a template. I agree that trying to reconstruct him/it using a standard class build wouldn't fit nearly as well though.

[KillianHawkeye]

In Pathfinder, Paizo released a book called Occult Adventures which included Psychic Magic. A 3rd Party Publisher had already released a popular psionics update to Pathfinder, and some people prefer to use both even though they tend to step on each other's toes a lot.

This is the psion. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psion)

This is the psychic. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/occult-adventures/occult-classes/psychic)

I see. If this had been clearly marked as a Pathfinder thread, I wouldn't have bothered posting. Sorry for the intrusion.

[Prime32]

Of note:

Psionics (Sp): Telepathy, mental combat and psychic powers—psionics is a catchall word that describes special mental abilities possessed by various creatures. These are spell-like abilities that a creature generates from the power of its mind alone—no other outside magical force or ritual is needed. Each psionic creature’s description contains details on its psionic abilities.

Psionic attacks almost always allow Will saving throws to resist them. However, not all psionic attacks are mental attacks. Some psionic abilities allow the psionic creature to reshape its own body, heal its wounds, or teleport great distances. Some psionic creatures can see into the future, the past, and the present (in far-off locales) as well as read the minds of others. Psionic abilities are usually usable at will.

This was removed from Pathfinder, likely because because neither githyanki, githzerai, mind flayers nor yuan-ti are covered by the OGL. With those gone the only psionic monsters in PF core would be the aboleth and couatl, which isn't really enough to justify having a separate entry from regular SLAs.

EDIT:

The one I’m not sure I buy though, is the powers of the One in the Matrix.That could be... a sorcerer with the psychic bloodline, maybe? (sorcerer spells count as psychic rather than arcane, with spell components changing as appropriate)