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DanteTheDragon
2016-10-31, 04:14 AM
Hi! So basically the title pretty much sums it up. I want to join a 3.5 D&d game focused around evil undead characters and I wanted to play a shadow vampire from http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/vampire.shtml

^here. The problem is the GM said he wants to make it a gestalt game and I have no idea how to do that. I'm pretty new to D&D only been playing about a year and I still don't know a lot (I played standard ad&d) so if anyone. Anyone! Can help me out in making a character. Heck if anyone can make me a character I'd greatly appreciate it.

The GM said we are starting at level 12 with 100k gold the game story line hasn't really been fleshed out but my characters back story is basically he was a fighter who had fallen in a battle and woke up on the battlefield afterwards, his creator had come back and unburied him from all the corpses. The other PC characters will most likely be serving this person as well or he may have died along the way and now we all serve the same guy. Id like him to be a fighter with a tiny bit of thief in it. A vampire who can fight and talk his way into or out of situations.
With a sword and shield preferably.

Help me GiantITP people, you are my only hope! Any help with how to do this or making this for me would be very appreciated.

Here's his big 16. As someone new to D&d and 3.5 it pretty much heavily confused me


1. What game system are you running (D&D, Call of Cthulu, Palladium, GURPS, etc.), and if applicable what edition (Original, Classic, Revised, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 10th, etc.)?
This will be D&D 3.5.

2. What 'type' or variant of game will it be (i.e. "Shadow Chasers" or "Agents of Psi" for d20 Modern)? What is the setting for the game (eg. historic period, published or homebrewed campaign setting, alternate reality, modern world, etc.)?
Standard D&D medieval fantasy.

3. How many Players are you looking for? Will you be taking alternates, and if so, how many?
Not too many. A larger group slows down the game. Probably 3 or 4.

4. What's the gaming medium (OOTS, chat, e-mail etc.)?
Here on the forums.

5. What is the characters' starting status (i.e. experience level)?
Level 12 Gestalt. See below for LA/RHD shenanigans playing into the level. You are permitted to take a PrC on both sides of the Gestalt at once and you may use both sides of the Gestalt to qualify for PrCs on either side. You're even allowed to take dual progression classes (like Mystic Theurge) so long as you don't use that to progress a class' class features to higher than they would be if you were monostalt. So you can't go Wizard 12//Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 9 to get Wizard 21 casting, it'll just cap at Wizard 12. Rogue 12//Spellthief 12 can't have more than 7d6 Sneak Attack (since Rogue 5/Assassin 7 would have that. If you can show me a monostalt build that establishes a cap, that becomes the new cap.) If you happened to lose progression of a class feature (like lost caster levels or a slower Sneak Attack progression such as from Unseen Seer) then you can use Gestalted levels to make up the gap. For example, a Cleric 7/Ordained Champion 5//Rogue 5/Black Flame Zealot 7 would have Cleric 12 casting, since Black Flame Zealot's progression catches up the gaps left by Ordained Champion.

6. How much gold or other starting funds will the characters begin with?
100,000 gold, a bit more than WBL.

7. Are there any particular character classes, professions, orders, etc. that you want... or do not want? What are your rules on 'prestige' and/or homebrewed classes?
No Homebrew, no Prestige Base Class (Prestige Paladin, Bard, etc), no Spontaneous Cleric, and no Generic classes.

8. What races, subraces, species, etc. are allowed for your game? Will you allow homebrewed races or species? 'Prestige' races or species?
All monsters are available as playable races, though of course some may not be as viable for this specific game. Since the focus of this game is about being Undead I'd prefer people to be closer to "pure" Undead than other monsters or multi-templated monstrosities that happen to be Undead at the end of the day.

The ECL for any monster before class levels is equal to their CR. If a monster has a CR (and thus ECL) higher than its RHD, the difference between CR and RHD is its effective LA. If the monster has a CR lower than its RHD, remove RHD (adjusting skill ranks, feats, racial ability DCs, etc accordingly) until the monster has a number of RHD equal to its CR. The exception is that if a monster has racial spellcasting, half the effective class level (rounded up) is added on as LA.


A Plague Blight has CR 6 and 6 RHD. Since its CR is 6, it counts as being ECL 6. Since its RHD equal its CR, do not adjust those. It does not have an LA for these purposes. The build will look Class 12//RHD 6/Class 6.

A Spawn of Kyuss has CR 5 and 4 RHD. Since its CR is 5, it counts as being ECL 5. Since it has a lower RHD than its ECL, the difference (ECL 5-RHD 4=1) is its LA. The build will look like Class 12//LA 1/RHD 4/Class 7.

A Mohrg has CR 8 and 14 RHD. Since its CR is 8, it counts as being ECL 8. Since it has a higher RHD than its ECL, reduce it to 8 RHD (taking away Skill Ranks, Saves, its 12th level feat, decreasing the DC for its racial abilities, etc.) The build will look like Class 12//RHD 8/Class 4.

A Nightwalker has CR 16 and 21 RHD. Since its CR is 16, it counts as being ECL 16. Since it has a higher RHD than its ECL, reduce it to 16 RHD (taking away Skill Ranks, Saves, its 21st and 18th level feats, decreasing its SLA CLs and the DC for its racial abilities, etc.) The build will look like RHD 4/Class 8//RHD 12.

Following these rules, a Template has an LA of its increase in CR.

RHD/LA count as class levels on only one side of the Gestalt, but you must place them all on one side. Effectively you will have 12 class levels, and then 12-ECL levels on the other side. If you wish to play an Undead with a higher adjusted ECL than 12 then you can place RHD/LA onto the first side of the Gestalt, sacrificing class levels for it, but those RHD don't contribute to the level-based stat boosts you get at every fourth level (since monster stats are calculated kind-of with those in mind already.) Any racial ability with a DC (like a Nightwalker's Evil Gaze or a Mohrg's Paralyzing Touch) uses HD gained from classes as well as RHD to calculate the DC.

If you would like to be a Zombie or a Skeleton or similar Mindless Undead, you may have had a Maximized Awaken Undead cast on you for free if you write it into your backstory. This only puts your Int on par with an average creature of your original type, so I don't think it's overpowered to allow that.

9. By what method should Players generate their attributes/ability scores and Hit Points?
28 point buy, since you'll have high stats from your race anyway. Max HP at first level, average-rounded-up (d4=3, d8=5, d12=7, etc) each level after. Since you're likely to be Undead, that means you'll have 7 HP per level. Or 9 if you were created in a Desecrated area with an altar, which I assume everyone will write into your backstory. An NPC with various Corpsecrafter feats can only apply those to your creation if you were created by a spell, such as Animate Dead, Create (Greater) Undead, Animate Dread Warrior, and similar spells. For most exotic Undead or anyone Spawned by another Undead this won't be an option.

10. Does your game use alignment? What are your restrictions, if so?
I like alignments played straight. All alignments are justifiable in some way or another as long as you get along with the rest of the party. I don't want to see any Chaotic Stupid. Jack Sparrow, not Charlie Kelly. Same applies for Stupid Evil. You are absolutely allowed to look down on NPCs and do as you please to them, but you are not allowed to backstab party members or just act without consideration toward them, ruining their plans for your benefit. Your character may want to do these things, but you yourself are a human being playing a game with other people. "It's what my character would do" isn't a valid justification if other players want you not to do something.

11. Do you allow multi-classing, or have any particular rules in regards to it?
Yes multiclassing, no penalties for doing so, but I won't accept any concept that just doesn't make sense or is too much of a hodgepodge. If it looks like you're just making optimal choices rather than blending into a coherent character, I won't accept it. You can certainly make a number of multiclassing options if you justify it, but I don't want the justification to be an afterthought. I want a fleshed-out character, not just a build. This is a big deal for me, and I know that you know if you're doing it because I know that I know when I'm doing it. For instance, a dip into Lion Totem Barbarian is pretty tempting for any kind of melee character. It's possible for a brawny character with a chaotic bent to have dabbled in Barbarism. But if you say "and then for a year my character lived with Barbarian tribes but that life wasn't for them so they returned to society" that's not going to cut it.

12. Will you be doing all of the die rolling during the course of the game? Will die rolls be altered, or left to the honor system? If players can make die rolls, which ones do they make, how should they make the rolls, and how should they report them?
I will be making passive rolls for you, like perception when you enter a room, initiative when combat begins, or saves against an attack out of your turn. You can make all the active rolls you want, like perception or stealth or social skills. And only you will be doing those, so I'm not going to let you know if you Sense Motive anything on a guy that you didn't choose to roll against unless your modifier is higher than the DC (and so you succeed without rolling). Anything else I'll roll. I like to roll secretly so I can fudge things if I feel it's necessary, but I'll do it case-by-case.

13. Are there any homebrewed or optional/variant rules that your Players should know about? If so, list and explain them, or provide relevant links to learn about these new rules.
I am combining Spot/Listen/Search into Perception (Wis), Hide/Move Silently into Stealth (Dex), Balance/Jump/Tumble into Acrobatics (Dex), Climb/Swim into Athletics (Str), Forgery/Decipher Script/Speak Language into Linguistics (Int), and Open Lock is now subsumed into Disable Device. Bonuses which apply for only one of the combined skills only apply if that skill is the pertinent one. For example, Invisibility doesn't make you any harder to Perceive by hearing, even though it gives a big boost to Stealth. Or a Raptoran's wings don't add their +10 to Acrobatics for Tumbling, only Jumping.

Skill points are retroactively gained for permanent increases to Int such as by age, level-up, change of race/template, or Tome. I'm going to be leery if everyone has a creature that was Venerable before becoming Undead since that Con - kind of offsets one of the biggest costs of Venerable age.

Also I'm going to be running Diplomacy and Bluff much more ad hoc rather than by the set DCs in the book. High Diplomacy checks make you more persuasive, and high Bluff checks can prevent a target from immediately seeing that you're lying, but no skill is going to automatically gain allies just from a high roll.

Saves and BAB are fractional, and you can only get the +2 for having a good save a single time (that is to say, you don't get +2 to a save every time you take the first level of a class with that as a good save.) You are allowed up to two Traits from UA, and you may have one Flaw which cannot be from UA. This must be a Flaw that you yourself invent and run by me, and it must have some mechanical effect which connects to the character in a flavorful way so as to encourage roleplaying. Examples of Flaws I've liked in the past included a Shadowcaster whose excitable shadow tangled her up, and at the start of each combat she had a 20% chance to be tripped. There was a proud warrior who took a -1 to Will saves for every 10% of his HP he was down from the blow to his pride and confidence. That kind of thing.

I don't like keeping track of XP, so you'll level up together after you've all done enough, though I don't know if that'll happen in a high level game like this. All XP costs (of spells and crafting and such) will be replaced by an equivalent 5 GP per XP cost, though that conversion happens at the end of the process (so Extraordinary Artisan won't decrease the XP-to-Gold cost, you'd still need Legendary Artisan to do that). Ignore Material Components doesn't apply for a spell that used to cost XP but now costs GP, though. This XP-for-gold applies to Spellstitching, so if you're planning to Spellstitch yourself you'll be paying 2500*Wis GP.

14. Is a character background required? If so, how big? Are you looking for anything in particular (i.e. the backgrounds all ending up with the characters in the same city)?
I do like a backstory that gives me something to tie into the game, but I'm just not going to read anything too long, so be tactful about length and interest. I'd rather see a story about why your character's personality is what it is than a story that boils down to bullet points of "Here's how they got Class 1, here's how they got Class 2."

Being Undead, your creation is going to be a big part of your "life." Whether you spontaneously manifested out of evil and darkness, rose from the mind or body of a living creature due to circumstances of their death, were put together and animated by a Necromancer, or were the victim of Spawning Undead, I want to hear about it. If it adds to your story you can describe the creature you were before Undeath (if you used to be something else) and you're allowed to have died at any point in your build progression, so if you want to be an Elf Rogue 5 who became a Vampire and only then became a Cleric, you're allowed to. (Even if buildwise you took Cleric levels concurrently with Rogue ones, you're allowed a little flexibility on how you got what, when, and where to make it work out.)

While you're free to coordinate with other potential players in working one another into a backstory, be very aware that one person may be accepted and another not, so don't tie them together inextricably.

15. Does your game involve a lot of hack & slash, puzzle solving, roleplaying, or a combination of the above?
I far prefer roleplaying, dialogue, and intrigue to hack and slash. In some cases things may come down to direct fighting. Even then, combat will likely be avoidable if the player is clever and diplomatic. Alternatively, some non-combat scenes will end up with combat if handled tactlessly.

16. Are your Players restricted to particular rulebooks and supplements, or will you be allowing access to non-standard material? What sources can Players use for their characters?
All 3.5 material, all 3.0 if there's not a 3.5 update to it, all WotC Web Enhancement content. I reserve the right to ban outright cheesy picks from some books, or the combination of this-and-that. Please confirm any kind of ambiguous rulings when "certain readings" of abilities make them much stronger than they ought to be, and I expect you to be able to recognize when that's what's happening. No Dragon Magazine is allowed except for the Dragon Compendium. No Pathfinder unless a very strong case is made, and probably not even then. No 3rd party material (including the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, I'm counting that as 3rd party) except for Hyperconscious, which I think is cool. No Homebrew, no class fixes, no nothing. It's got to be in a book (or the official site).

Einselar
2016-10-31, 04:27 AM
A Gestalt character follows a few simple rules.

A. They are terribly broken or incredibly hard to balance.
B. They essentially level up two classes simultaneously.

So how to make a Gestalt.

First, pick the two classes you want to level. I would suggest a cross between Fighter (For the feats) and Crusader from Tome of Battle. To get that little bit of thief, you can burn a few feats in Martial Study and learn some Shadow Hand maneuvers, or you can sacrifice some levels in fighter for a couple levels in thief. I would suggest a Brawler Variant of some kind to maintain your hit dice.

Next, determine your hit die. When making a Gestalt, you take the hit die of the beefier class. So if Class A has a d8 and Class B has a d10 when leveling from 9-10, you HD for level 10 will be a d10

Next, you saves and BaB. These follow the same rules as the HD.

Feats are treated the same way as normal. Take class feats as needed and take progression feats normally. Same goes for skills.

Starting Gold is part of character progression. At level 12, unless the DM says otherwise, you get 88,000 gold to start with. You start at 100,00 gold. Did not read. My bad.

That should cover just about everything. If you still want someone else to make a sheet for you, I'm sure you can find someone on here with a better knowledge of the rulebook for an optimal character.

Finally, if this is your first time playing evil, I'll do what I always do and you read this nifty guide to lawful Evil written by Red Fel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448542-Compliance-Will-Be-Rewarded-A-Guide-to-Lawful-Evil) or the fantastic guide to Chaotic Evil, by Thealtruistorc. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?446414-No-Limits-No-Regrets-A-guide-to-the-Chaotic-Evil-alignment)

Cheers, and enjoy!

DanteTheDragon
2016-10-31, 04:49 AM
So assuming I have this right. A vampire is ECL 8, so with gestalt rules I can make a fighter 5/ crusader 3? Thanks for the help. I very much appreciate it and I definitely will read that post you mentioned :)

I've played chaotic evil before. Was a cleric of Luna who would hunt and eat people during the night for his goddess and loved battle. He could even shift into a wolf.

Einselar
2016-10-31, 05:16 AM
So assuming I have this right. A vampire is ECL 8, so with gestalt rules I can make a fighter 5/ crusader 3? Thanks for the help. I very much appreciate it and I definitely will read that post you mentioned :)

I've played chaotic evil before. Was a cleric of Luna who would hunt and eat people during the night for his goddess and loved battle. He could even shift into a wolf.

Looking at the provided link, the vampire you have has separate rules as a creature template and as a player template. If you want to be the strongest vampire on that table, you essentially gain an LA +8, though I would personally treat it as Racial Hit Die. The best way to solve this is check with the DM if possible to see how he treats that template with gestalt.

I will take the time to point out now there is a template index with several vampire templates that are cheaper and more versatile, however, I do not know where it can be found anymore, or if it is an official book.

As for double classing, lets say that you have +4 LA and are ECL 12 (so 8 class levels) You would take something like fighter 8 || Crusader 8, because your are leveling two classes with each level up. it can also be swapped around, like so Fighter 6 / Thief 2 || Crusader 3 // Swordsage 5. However, you cannot level a class twice in a levelup. so Fighter 8 || Fighter 8 is not an option.

Red Fel
2016-10-31, 08:47 AM
Finally, if this is your first time playing evil, I'll do what I always do and you read this nifty guide to lawful Evil written by Red Fel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448542-Compliance-Will-Be-Rewarded-A-Guide-to-Lawful-Evil)

https://media2.giphy.com/media/kpgm4jXSPfGcU/100.gif

Sister! Observe! They've opened it!


Hi! So basically the title pretty much sums it up. I want to join a 3.5 D&d game focused around evil undead characters and I wanted to play a shadow vampire from http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/vampire.shtml

I like it already. Let's delve, shall we?


The GM said we are starting at level 12 with 100k gold the game story line hasn't really been fleshed out but my characters back story is basically he was a fighter who had fallen in a battle and woke up on the battlefield afterwards, his creator had come back and unburied him from all the corpses. The other PC characters will most likely be serving this person as well or he may have died along the way and now we all serve the same guy. Id like him to be a fighter with a tiny bit of thief in it. A vampire who can fight and talk his way into or out of situations.
With a sword and shield preferably.


So assuming I have this right. A vampire is ECL 8, so with gestalt rules I can make a fighter 5/ crusader 3? Thanks for the help. I very much appreciate it and I definitely will read that post you mentioned :)

Okay. So you're starting at ECL 12, gestalt rules. We can discuss how that will work.

First problem is the Big 16. Look at Number 16, restricted sources. Notice how it says "No Dragon Magazine is allowed except for the Dragon Compendium." Well, Shadow Vampire is from Dragon Magazine #348. Unless it showed up in Dragon Compendium - and I don't think it did - that means that Shadow Vampire is out.

Assuming it's not, or that you get special permission, here's how this works. First, the bad news: Shadow Vampire has a +10 Level Adjustment (LA). That means one "side" of the gestalt will have to contain ten levels of "Vampire, Shadow" unless the DM allows LA buyoff (and given that it's gestalt, I'm guessing no). Now, two pieces of good news: First, Shadow Vampires have no racial HD (RHD), which is nice; second, because you're playing gestalt, LA isn't as big a deal. Here's why.

Normally, gestalt is described in "sides" - that is, at each level, you take two classes, and gain the best of both. For example, a three-level gestalt build might look like this:
Fighter 1 // Wizard 1
Fighter 2 // Wizard 2
Fighter 2 / Monk 1 // Wizard 3
The single-slash marks note multiclassing within one "side", while the double-slash marks separate the two "sides" of the gestalt. Of course, the "sides" are a fiction; they just help us organize better.

Now, you're playing an ECL 12 starting point. So that's basically going to look like this.
Vampire 1 // X 1
Vampire 2 // X 2
Vampire 3 // X 3
Vampire 4 // X 4
Vampire 5 // X 5
Vampire 6 // X 6
Vampire 7 // X 7
Vampire 8 // X 8
Vampire 9 // X 9
Vampire 10 // X 10
Vampire 10 / Y 1 // X 11
Vampire 10 / Y 2 // X 12
See? First ten levels, one "side" of the gestalt will be Vampire, remaining two, do as you like. Other side, do as you like.

This assumes, of course, that Shadow Vampire is allowed. If not, you may have to go back to the drawing board.

AvatarVecna
2016-10-31, 09:08 AM
5. What is the characters' starting status (i.e. experience level)?
Level 12 Gestalt. See below for LA/RHD shenanigans playing into the level. You are permitted to take a PrC on both sides of the Gestalt at once and you may use both sides of the Gestalt to qualify for PrCs on either side. You're even allowed to take dual progression classes (like Mystic Theurge) so long as you don't use that to progress a class' class features to higher than they would be if you were monostalt. So you can't go Wizard 12//Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 9 to get Wizard 21 casting, it'll just cap at Wizard 12. Rogue 12//Spellthief 12 can't have more than 7d6 Sneak Attack (since Rogue 5/Assassin 7 would have that. If you can show me a monostalt build that establishes a cap, that becomes the new cap.) If you happened to lose progression of a class feature (like lost caster levels or a slower Sneak Attack progression such as from Unseen Seer) then you can use Gestalted levels to make up the gap. For example, a Cleric 7/Ordained Champion 5//Rogue 5/Black Flame Zealot 7 would have Cleric 12 casting, since Black Flame Zealot's progression catches up the gaps left by Ordained Champion.

...

8. What races, subraces, species, etc. are allowed for your game? Will you allow homebrewed races or species? 'Prestige' races or species?
All monsters are available as playable races, though of course some may not be as viable for this specific game. Since the focus of this game is about being Undead I'd prefer people to be closer to "pure" Undead than other monsters or multi-templated monstrosities that happen to be Undead at the end of the day.

The ECL for any monster before class levels is equal to their CR. If a monster has a CR (and thus ECL) higher than its RHD, the difference between CR and RHD is its effective LA. If the monster has a CR lower than its RHD, remove RHD (adjusting skill ranks, feats, racial ability DCs, etc accordingly) until the monster has a number of RHD equal to its CR. The exception is that if a monster has racial spellcasting, half the effective class level (rounded up) is added on as LA.

Following these rules, a Template has an LA of its increase in CR.

Pointing out these parts, particularly in regards to the last line. So regular Vampire would be effectively LA +2 rather than the usual LA +8.

DanteTheDragon
2016-10-31, 09:15 AM
Yeah! Thanks guys I appreciate the help haha. Unfortunately it looks like I'm not getting picked. GMs kinda ignoring my posts and didn't even bring up that the shadow vamp I was aiming for isn't a choice until someone else asked a question about my character so I didn't know I should have switched to plain vamp. Eh it happens. I appreciate all the help though guys. It helped me learn more about gestalt character creation :) I appreciate it.

AvatarVecna
2016-10-31, 09:25 AM
Yeah! Thanks guys I appreciate the help haha. Unfortunately it looks like I'm not getting picked. GMs kinda ignoring my posts and didn't even bring up that the shadow vamp I was aiming for isn't a choice until someone else asked a question about my character so I didn't know I should have switched to plain vamp. Eh it happens. I appreciate all the help though guys. It helped me learn more about gestalt character creation :) I appreciate it.

No worries. I'm in the same thread, and I know that feel. Of course, I'm not exactly expecting to play that character anyway; there's RP issues with having them in a group (and that game in particular), and I'd probably never be happy with the build, what with the power and fluff not really synching well.

DanteTheDragon
2016-11-02, 07:22 AM
So I've decided to try and make a vampire character anyway just for giggles and who knows maybe the GM will like it. I'm thinking of making a vampire lifedrinker from the book of vile darkness. Would anyone happen to be able to think of a FUN spellcaster class that would be able to fit with this? Doesn't have to be the best sheet. just one that sounds fun. I'm thinking it'll end up being vampire 2/ lifedrinker 10//suggested spellcaster class 6 maybe/ melee class 6 or just full blown spellcaster on the other side if the GM says no then eh at least I have a sheet in case I ever need it in the future