Need help. My players keep on assuming they work in a vacuum

[Manyasone]

A bit of more info. I am currently playing Rise of the Runelords and my players already have what they came for but decided to branch out in the other wards.
My party set up is as follows:
Dwarven monk (vanilla) 14 with permanent Enlarge Person
Dwarven Sin eater Inquisitor 13 -ranged combat specialist
Elven Hexcrafter/Bladebound Magus 13 -easily the most powerful character
Half Giant Aegis War Hulk 13 -This one I made myself because the players didn't have a clue at the time, something I regret now
Human Crossblooded Sorcerer stormborn/djinni 13 -electricity...

They have easily 300k each in magical stuff around them due to crafting, so I upped their APL and tailored some bosses and mini bosses to give them more of a challenge. One of these bosses was a CR 15 Lich...Alone....because f*** you action economy. I created a CR17 fight out of it using the rules provided by the GM’s Guide to Creating Challenging Encounters which I found on this forum a while ago, adding 3 Greater Shadows and a Dread Blood Knight with a lvl 12 fighter-Two handed fighter archetype wielding a masterwork scythe (reasons of my own).

They lasted three rounds in this fight...the sorcerer teleported them out, the magus wasn't present, the Aegis had 2 strength left at this point.
Now, the dwarven monk player has an ego the size of the moon, so he wants to 'power up' (ghost touch weapons) and return....
They will leave for a while, leaving a dungeon with lots of fresh corpses/materials and a highly intelligent Lich necromancer to his own devices...
So you see, I'm having a problem here. They don't have to do this encounter, it is not imperative. But I also can't just let them waltz in weeks later thinking 'hur-dur, we be lich killing now'

How would you guys tackle this?

[Einselar]

Personally, I'd let them. It's astonishing what a death does for a party as far as tone goes. But if you really want to avoid that, make the lich pissed off that they dared to disturb him. Have the corpses and skeletons of those they killed in the tower come back and attack them while they are resting and healing. Have them threaten a town. Not only will you now have another BBEG for them to kill, but these encounters provide the vital XP needed to level up.

In addition, calculate what they need XP-wise to level up twice, and repopulate the tower, now with enough monsters with enough XP plus a bit to spare. Odds are they'll be scarier this time around too. Plus, security will be on high alert. Doors barred, illusions set, sentries ready to set the whole damn tower on them if they aren't careful. Maybe even the beginning of a wall being built outside.

Just remember to always, always, always give he characters a way out.

[Mr Adventurer]

Just kill some of the characters, it's not like they're not high enough level for (purchasing) Resurrection.

[Manyasone]

Just kill some of the characters, it's not like they're not high enough level for (purchasing) Resurrection.
Well...as to that...they blew their cash in the magic items mentioned earlier...all of it.
Current party funds stand at 1.5k I believe

[Barstro]

But I also can't just let them waltz in weeks later thinking 'hur-dur, we be lich killing now'

Weeks later? Sure you can. (can, not have to)

Figure out this Lich's personality. Is he the kind to scry and buff up for a while? Would he move on to other things in a week or two? Is he paranoid enough to simply relocate right away? Would he send out assassins to dispose of this problem on his own terms?

Since the PCs know of this lich, they hopefully will scry/commune/whatever to figure out the best plan when they do decide to go after him. Otherwise, they will probably lose again.

[Segev]

I'd do it thusly: Ask them, given however long they're waiting and the resources of a fortress with a high-level necromancer, what they'd do in that time.

[Geddy2112]

Second enforcing the organic consequences of an action. In any good RPG, the world turns without the players involvement, and all of their actions are a rock in the pond, sending ripples everywhere. Every choice does not have to be butterfly effect levels of consequential, but serious actions have serious consequences.

[Barstro]

I'd do it thusly: Ask them, given however long they're waiting and the resources of a fortress with a high-level necromancer, what they'd do in that time.

Player A: I'd send all my minions out for pizza.
Player B: Yeah, yeah, and I'd move all my treasure into one pile in the center room.
Player C: Not me. I'd put all the magic items right by the front door.
Player A: Oh, good idea. I'd also spend as much time as I can crafting a... hmm... +3 greatsword of Lich Slaying, and leave that by the door too.
All: yep, that's what we'd do.

[Segev]

Player A: I'd send all my minions out for pizza.
Player B: Yeah, yeah, and I'd move all my treasure into one pile in the center room.
Player C: Not me. I'd put all the magic items right by the front door.
Player A: Oh, good idea. I'd also spend as much time as I can crafting a... hmm... +3 greatsword of Lich Slaying, and leave that by the door too.
All: yep, that's what we'd do.

DM: So noted. *assumes that's all they've been doing, and has them raided by thieves*

[Manyasone]

All puns aside (and some good ones too) I believe when you look at the party, they are a bit one sided and that is the big problem. It can always be worse, but it can be better...most of the AC's are almost 40, the monk is a dragon style full attacker, vital strike single attacker and since he has a good touch AC he is the most difficult to hit, the SR help him a bit...Most of the scenarios (Theatre of the mind) he is the last one standing

[KillianHawkeye]

At the very, very least, the lich now has plenty of time to find a really good hiding place for his phylactery (if it wasn't well hidden already). Then if the PCs do come back and smash things up, what does he care? He'll be back in about a week, and he has unlimited time to whatever he wants afterwards.

The only questions to answer are whether or not the lich has any time-sensitive operations going on that would preclude him taking a 1d10 day vacation, and whether or not the lich considers a minor interruption from some pesky mortals to be important enough to bring retribution down on them. After all, the best way to defeat one's enemies is to simply outlive them, and liches have an inherent advantage when it comes to living forever.

[Barstro]

All puns aside (and some good ones too) I believe when you look at the party, they are a bit one sided and that is the big problem. It can always be worse, but it can be better...most of the AC's are almost 40, the monk is a dragon style full attacker, vital strike single attacker and since he has a good touch AC he is the most difficult to hit, the SR help him a bit...Most of the scenarios (Theatre of the mind) he is the last one standing

For me, this seems like a fine time for the DM to have a reason to target the party specifically. NOTE: not everyone appreciates this as much as I do; be ready for your party to pout and whine.

If the PCs are all specialized like that, then it seems to reason that the Lich would be scrying and note that about them. He would then create a party that is specifically designed to counter their builds. If the party had too much WBL and the Lich were overly kind, the enemy party would knock them out, take the best item from each of them, and leave a note that says "Next time I take it all, and your lives. F-off; signed, Mr. Lich".

But, you'd better have a great in-character reason the Lich went to all this trouble. Dues Ex Machina attacking the PCs is lame and you should be flogged for it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

At the very, very least, the lich now has plenty of time to find a really good hiding place for his phylactery (if it wasn't well hidden already). Then if the PCs do come back and smash things up, what does he care? He'll be back in about a week, and he has unlimited time to whatever he wants afterwards.

The only questions to answer are whether or not the lich has any time-sensitive operations going on that would preclude him taking a 1d10 day vacation, and whether or not the lich considers a minor interruption from some pesky mortals to be important enough to bring retribution down on them. After all, the best way to defeat one's enemies is to simply outlive them, and liches have an inherent advantage when it comes to living forever.

Liches are also wizards (or other spellcasters), and wizards are paranoid (only not, because they're really out to get you). They have to be to get high enough in levels to become liches in the first place.
And now his lair/laboratory got invaded by a bunch of upstart adventurers, who then escaped.
At the very least he is going to gather information with scrying, other divinations, sending minions to spy etc. to find out how serious a thread they are (and/or how much effort it'd be to dispose of them). Not to mention that adventurers make excellent base material for undead servants.
If/when he finds out that the party actually plans on preparing and coming back? Offense is the best defense. Scry & die tactics are a thing. Wizards have a lot of options to make their enemies miserable.

One thing to keep in mind for this is not to fudge anything. Roll for divinations, take their preparations into account and so on.
If they're prepared enough to protect against everything he could do good for them, but i doubt it. Few players take that kind of threat seriously unless it's bitten them before, and yours don't sound like it.
It's an educational opportunity for them and you.

But, you'd better have a great in-character reason the Lich went to all this trouble. Dues Ex Machina attacking the PCs is lame and you should be flogged for it.
He already has one: they came to his home to kill him and steal all his cool stuff. He's a wizard who went to considerable trouble to avoid the first and nobody with cool stuff takes well to the second.

Imagine if the situations were reversed. How far would your party go if someone did that to them to get revenge and/or neutralize the threat? Mine definitely tend towards the "overkill" end of the spectrum.

[Anxe]

When I did this I had the Lich gather it's most powerful servants on the next day. It cast scrying on the party member with the weakest mind. One teleport later and they weren't so safe anymore. Everything went to **** for the lich due to a lucky dispel magic, but it was a good encounter.

That was with a more powerful party than yours though. I think stepping it up a notch is warranted. You probably know best how to do that though.

[Barstro]

He already has one: they came to his home to kill him and steal all his cool stuff. He's a wizard who went to considerable trouble to avoid the first and nobody with cool stuff takes well to the second.

Imagine if the situations were reversed. How far would your party go if someone did that to them to get revenge and/or neutralize the threat? Mine definitely tend towards the "overkill" end of the spectrum.

He has a decent reason. The Lich also needs to demonstrate the personality of one who would bother. Then, the DM needs to should demonstrate proper mechanics and rolls to show that the accumulation of knowledge and planning are "fair".

EDIT: The party is going to complain about any TPK, The DM needs to show that all the underlying work was fair and not just DM fiat.

My party would likewise go overkill. My characters would normally advise sending a very strong message and allow the enemy to accept his comeuppance. I personally would spend time figuring out who is the stronger and flee if prudent (then research, train, hire, destroy).

[sleepyphoenixx]

He has a decent reason. The Lich also needs to demonstrate the personality of one who would bother. Then, the DM needs to should demonstrate proper mechanics and rolls to show that the accumulation of knowledge and planning are "fair".

EDIT: The party is going to complain about any TPK, The DM needs to show that all the underlying work was fair and not just DM fiat.

It's not really a question of personality. It's a necessity for anyone playing in that league to establish a reputation of someone not to be crossed lightly.
Letting a bunch of adventurers off after they tried to kill and rob you is practically a flashing sign saying "oh don't worry, you can come to kill me as long as you prepare to teleport away if it doesn't work out, no hard feelings". Appearing weak will just encourage others to try the same thing.

I agree on showing your work afterwards though. Keep it all above board and when they still complain ask them "what did you think would happen?". Tabletop gaming is not a MMORPG where bosses wait nicely until you're prepared to start the fight. If you make an enemy chances are they're going to come after you when it suits them, not you.
They need to learn to watch out for who they piss off sooner or later, and this is already pretty late.

[lord_khaine]

I will just point out that from the sound of your party, following most of the advice here is going to result in a very, VERY upset party, when they suddenly get a TPK from a hard encounter turning into a impossible one. And i dont think the personal ego boosting would be worth the following grumbling.

I do think the grumbling would also in part be justified if the world suddenly changed from static to dynamic without any warning.

So if you want to show consequences you should avoid using the lich again since its clearly to strong for them now. And i really doubt getting either killed or beaten yet again will in any way make your players inclined to listen to you.
If you want to actually do something constructive, then let the Lich either starting sending beatable minions after them, discretely reanimate every defeated foe so they have to kill it yet again a few days later, or just plain pack up and leave. Really, i think that you can do almost anything as long it dont straight up hands the party yet another defeat.

[Fizban]

From what scraps I've heard, I thought Rise of the Runelords was supposed to be at least a little dynamic.

I say crush them, or at least do your level best. If the party's not protected against scry 'n die, fire away. Unless you dimensionally lock them they can still teleport away, after getting the message. Thus it is unlikely you'll actually TPK them, but if you don't try they'll never learn the difference between a video game and a DnD game.

[Fri]

A simpler solution that won't end in TPK is...

have the lich gone by the time they went back the second time.

He's a lich, his lair had been found out, even if he kill these people now, there's chance that they'd have told more people. And those other people might have told other people as well. Do you really want to spend eternity beating up uppity adventurers? If it's me I just move out, good riddance.

Also, you should put some clues on what happened. Maybe Moving Service receipt or something.

[stanprollyright]

A simpler solution that won't end in TPK is...

have the lich gone by the time they went back the second time.

He's a lich, his lair had been found out, even if he kill these people now, there's chance that they'd have told more people. And those other people might have told other people as well. Do you really want to spend eternity beating up uppity adventurers? If it's me I just move out, good riddance.

Also, you should put some clues on what happened. Maybe Moving Service receipt or something.

I second this suggestion.

[adonis53]

Easy solution: Lich moves out, taking all of his things with him. He sets trap at the main room where the party would be finding him. A series of traps that the Lich spent those weeks setting up suddenly are triggered(including dimensionally locking the building), and then the party must survive tons of really difficult traps and probably lose one or two members.

[Deophaun]

It's not really a question of personality. It's a necessity for anyone playing in that league to establish a reputation of someone not to be crossed lightly.
Which is why you don't go after them. No. You're a lich.

You go after the grandkids.

[stanprollyright]

When they go back, he's not there. There's a piece of paper on the desk with Exploding Runes written on it. Nothing too lethal, just a nice "screw you." Let the trail go cold, resume normal adventuring.

Have him come back later in the campaign while the heroes are away and wreck their stronghold, steal their stuff, kill/capture a bunch of friendly NPCs, turn their hometown into a zombie horde, and generally be super evil. Make it so that more people will die the longer they delay killing him.

I always find "story punishments" to be better than "game punishments." Punish the characters for their mistakes, not the players. Make them learn hard lessons.

[GreyBlack]

Well...as to that...they blew their cash in the magic items mentioned earlier...all of it.
Current party funds stand at 1.5k I believe

This will give them an excellent lesson in adventuring economics and emergency management: always have a backup plan and 2 ways out of a situation.

[Mordaedil]

I agree with the others posting lately. Lich raises everyone, abandons fortress, traps the whole thing to collapse, lich invades countryside as the heroes are going inside as they trigger an alarm spell or the like upon entering.

[Efrate]

I would punish hard. You just ticked off an immortal spellcaster. You interrupted his day doing lich things, that is irksome. Trap his place to all heck, something nasty in his sanctum, then after all that when they are nearly out of resources jump them. Kill one. Disjunct another one. Leave the rest almost dead and have lich say You see your folly begone. He has a new high level minion and a bunch of cool gear.

If they resist at such disadvantage still, TPK them. Reanimate them to be awesome body guards for the next group of adventures who hear about an ancient evil who has suddenly surfaced. You have made a campaign villian and a series of minibosses for the next party. Dont hold back, dont flub rolls and play to his intelligence and strengths. Have your pcs fight thier old characters as bosses of subsequent dungeons and then have new team face said lich. Rinse and repeat if needed.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If they resist at such disadvantage still, TPK them. Reanimate them to be awesome body guards for the next group of adventures who hear about an ancient evil who has suddenly surfaced. You have made a campaign villian and a series of minibosses for the next party. Dont hold back, dont flub rolls and play to his intelligence and strengths. Have your pcs fight thier old characters as bosses of subsequent dungeons and then have new team face said lich. Rinse and repeat if needed.

While this is what i'd do as a DM and expect as a player you should keep in mind your groups expectations.
If there haven't ever been consequences like this before i'd suggest ramping it up slowly instead of going from nothing to full throttle out of the blue.
There should definitely be a response, but how elaborate and difficult to deal with it gets should depend on what your group is used to.

Not only will there likely be a lot of whining and complaining otherwise, there's also the fact that players need to learn about the counters to these tactics before they can be expected to take precautions.
There's nothing fair or fun about sending a tippyverse-level lich against a party that's barely started optimizing, and they're not likely to learn anything from it either.

Usually i'd introduce those tactics and their counters to a new player as they become available, but level 13-14 is a little late for that so the OP will have to find his own pace to ramp up.

[lord_khaine]

A simpler solution that won't end in TPK is...

have the lich gone by the time they went back the second time.

He's a lich, his lair had been found out, even if he kill these people now, there's chance that they'd have told more people. And those other people might have told other people as well. Do you really want to spend eternity beating up uppity adventurers? If it's me I just move out, good riddance.

Also, you should put some clues on what happened. Maybe Moving Service receipt or something.

I also second this idea, it teaches the players that the world moves along with them in a way thats pretty likely to get though.


I would punish hard. You just ticked off an immortal spellcaster. You interrupted his day doing lich things, that is irksome. Trap his place to all heck, something nasty in his sanctum, then after all that when they are nearly out of resources jump them. Kill one. Disjunct another one. Leave the rest almost dead and have lich say You see your folly begone. He has a new high level minion and a bunch of cool gear.

If they resist at such disadvantage still, TPK them. Reanimate them to be awesome body guards for the next group of adventures who hear about an ancient evil who has suddenly surfaced. You have made a campaign villian and a series of minibosses for the next party. Dont hold back, dont flub rolls and play to his intelligence and strengths. Have your pcs fight thier old characters as bosses of subsequent dungeons and then have new team face said lich. Rinse and repeat if needed.

This on the other hand is a horrible idea. It assues the OP actually will have a party to send in though the next dungeon.

[Manyasone]

Yes, well, TPK isn't what I have in mind. I tell a Story, I am curious how it plays out, for that I need my players. But, as said before, there are consequences to their actions or lack thereof. They also know this. I've given them a bit of leeway before,but they haven't really faced a powerful intelligent spellcaster before. At least one that wasn't burdened by his Thassilonian sin magic

[Baroncognito]

Easy solution: Lich moves out, taking all of his things with him. He sets trap at the main room where the party would be finding him. A series of traps that the Lich spent those weeks setting up suddenly are triggered(including dimensionally locking the building), and then the party must survive tons of really difficult traps and probably lose one or two members.

The original post says that this is Rise of the Runelords. Given that the Lich is CR 15 originally, I do not believe that the "Lich moving out" is actually an option. The Lich cannot leave the location.

I was in a group that ran away from this Lich, and when we came back, he had done an awful lot to prepare for our return.

[Manyasone]

The original post says that this is Rise of the Runelords. Given that the Lich is CR 15 originally, I do not believe that the "Lich moving out" is actually an option. The Lich cannot leave the location.

I was in a group that ran away from this Lich, and when we came back, he had done an awful lot to prepare for our return.

How did your DM tackle it, if I may ask? I was thinking that at the least a lot of the walled wraiths are going to be released

[Baroncognito]

If I remember correctly, Gluttony was the last of the forks we went down, so the Lich had sent his minions to retrieve corpses from the other rooms as well. And Pride had that one room that had been absolutely full of dead clones.

I mean, I had tried to prevent it, but there are only so many dead bodies a halfling can eat.

Edit: We left for about a week, I think. So when we came back, there were about 7-9 invisible, illusion focused, spell casting juju zombies (or something like that). I think most of them just readied an action to cast dispel magic.

[jdizzlean]

let them leave, come back later, trap every single door and every other stone lining the walls or floors w/ pressure plates.

do this all the way to where they had previously made it in increasing difficulty. then have the rest of it continue this trend all the way to the lair of the lich, which will be just as empty as the rest of the tower.

the party can have a fun time trying to hunt down the lich for payback of all their new owies.

[Manyasone]

Well, so far, after a long discussion, since they don't know about liches IC, they also don't know about phylacteries, etc. They left for 9 days and I made it clear that re entering would be the height of folly. Two of my players are vets so they understand this, high level casters are better not left alone too much for prepping themselves, especially when the dungeon in question has a portal to the negative energy plane... The lich however is stunted in that he cannot leave the Runeforge; he is, however able to leave his ward

[Flesh_Engine]

Possibly some players think that they're playing Diablo and that they can only enter areas or face enemies that are appropriately level 'gated' for them?

[Manyasone]

Possibly some players think that they're playing Diablo and that they can only enter areas or face enemies that are appropriately level 'gated' for them?

You, my friend, shouldn't be in this thread :smallsmile:

[Flesh_Engine]

Fair enough 😅

[Endarire]

Does life in a vacuum suck?