Spellthief Ultimate Magus

[LordOfCain]

Would this work: Spellthief 1/Sorceror 4/Wu Jen 5/Ultimate Magus 7 with Master Spellthief
Casting: Sorc 10/Wu Jen 10
CL: Sorc 21/Wu Jen 21
tl;dr: Would Master Spellthief stack all of the arcane caster levels?

[Ashtagon]

Would this work: Spellthief 1/Sorceror 4/Wu Jen 5/Ultimate Magus 7 with Master Spellthief
Casting: Sorc 10/Wu Jen 10
CL: Sorc 27/Wu Jen 27
tl;dr: Would Master Spellthief stack all of the arcane caster levels?

Not sure how ultimate magus works, but assuming in progresses sorcerer and wu jen casting as described, the feat would effectively let you steal and hold one spell at a time only, of up to 9th level.

Edit: Assuming this ultimate magus: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3

spells per day/known as a sorcerer 10 / wu jen 10 / spellthief 1 (I'm generously assuming that the ultimate magus spell progression only be alpplied to sorcerer and wu jen progressions)

Caster level is as sorcerer 11 / wu jen 11 / spellthief 17. (add your spellthief level to each of wu jen and sorcerer caster levels. Add wu jen and sorcerer and ultimate magus levels to spellthief level for spellthief caster level).

Note, however, that stolen spells are treated as the caster level of the person the spell was stolen from. Given that the spellthief caster progression doesn't grant any spells per day until 4th level, the "spellthief caster level" part of the caster level data is effectively useless.

[LordOfCain]

But wouldn't this:

"Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells." mean that you add the levels in Wu Jen, the levels in Sorceror, and the levels in Spellthief to get the caster level?

[Ashtagon]

But wouldn't this:
mean that you add the levels in Wu Jen, the levels in Sorceror, and the levels in Spellthief to get the caster level?

That would be breaking the general pattern of how other feats in that general category of "reap the benefits of two classes" from that book work, from "two classes" to "many classes". But even with that more generous reading, you would only claim CL17th.

You don't get to count ultimate magus levels twice, let alone the base levels of the class you are counting up. If I were GMing the game, you'd be getting books thrown at you. By your logic, a spellthief 4/wizard 4 would get to cast at CL 12 (4th level wizard, plus 8 levels from all spellcasting class levels). Check the example given; that's clearly not how it works.

[Troacctid]

Master Spellthief doesn't care what your caster levels are. It only counts class levels. If it added up your caster level in each class, then the example Spellthief 4/Wizard 4 would have CL 6, not CL 8.

[Godskook]

Master Spellthief doesn't care what your caster levels are. It only counts class levels. If it added up your caster level in each class, then the example Spellthief 4/Wizard 4 would have CL 6, not CL 8.

And Ultimate Magus adds to effective class levels "for determining caster level", same as Master Spellthief(On review, I'm not sure which side of this discussion you're on, personally, but I think I'm adding value to the conversation either way).

In OP's example, he'd cast as a Sorcerer 10/Wujen 10, with Sorcerer CL of 21 (10 + 10 + 1), Wujen CL of 21, and Spellthief CL as a level 21 Spellthief.(Before other feats, Arcane Spell Power or other effects come into play).

Otoh, frankly, Master Spellthief is pure cheese when used this way, and should only be allowed in a game where RAW optimized Druids, DMM Clerics, Incantrix or other similar cheesy options are also allowed/encouraged. Personally, I'd suggest either (A)Picking a singular class to stack with -or- (B)Ruling that the feat uses -actual- class levels(including prestige classes, counting each level that gives at least 1 caster progression), rather than effective class levels, thus ignoring the double-stacking issue, but giving Theurges a better value from this than (A).

[LordOfCain]

Okay... So it looks like it works?

[Godskook]

Okay... So it looks like it works?

Where are you getting CL 27 from, cause I got CL 21. For Sorcerer, that's:

10(Sorc 4 + UM 6) + 10(WJ 5 + UM 5) + 1(Spellthief) = 21

[Ashtagon]

Where are you getting CL 27 from, cause I got CL 21. For Sorcerer, that's:

10(Sorc 4 + UM 6) + 10(WJ 5 + UM 5) + 1(Spellthief) = 21

I think he is seeing:

10 (Sorc 4 + ult mag 6) + 17 ( [sorc 4] + [wu jen 5] + [spellthief 1] + [ult mag 7] ) = 27

There's a rule somewhere (https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Modifiers#Stacking), though, that bonuses from the same source don't stack with themselves. Since by extension, no class level should stack with itself, that means the logical maximum would be 17 in any case.

[LordOfCain]

Where are you getting CL 27 from, cause I got CL 21. For Sorcerer, that's:

10(Sorc 4 + UM 6) + 10(WJ 5 + UM 5) + 1(Spellthief) = 21

Yah, that should be 21.

[Godskook]

I think he is seeing:

10 (Sorc 4 + ult mag 6) + 17 ( [sorc 4] + [wu jen 5] + [spellthief 1] + [ult mag 7] ) = 27

There's a rule somewhere (https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Modifiers#Stacking), though, that bonuses from the same source don't stack with themselves. Since by extension, no class level should stack with itself, that means the logical maximum would be 17 in any case.

Afaik, prestige classes like UM or Archmage don't 'count' as arcane spellcasting classes directly.

[Anthrowhale]

My understanding is that you get caster level 10 from Master Spellthief, then you add the Ultimate Magus advancement. The result would be:

Caster level: Spellthief 10/Sorcerer 16/Wu-Jen 15
Spell access: Spellthief 1/Sorcerer 10/Wu-Jen 10

And, you would only be able to possess one level of stolen spells.

To really abuse Master Spellthief you want something like:
Spellthief 1/Warmage 1/Wizard(Specialist) 3/Beguiler 1/Bard 1/Warmage 1/Wu-Jen 1/Duskblade 1/SC 10
where Master Spellthief sets caster level to 20 and Theurgic specialist dials it up to caster level 180 within the specialist school.