Change Archetype?

[BeefGood]

Is it possible for a character to change Archetypes, and if so, how how does it work?
For example: Rogue begins as a Thief Archetype, but as he achieves 9th level he decides that he'd like to get some spell capability, and wants to switch to Arcane Trickster Archetype.
Can he do this?
If so, would he simply "forget" all his current Thief features and "learn" all the AT features from prior levels?
Or would he keep his current Thief features and add the 9th level AT feature?
Or keep his current Thief features and add the first (3rd level) AT feature? (this last option sounds most reasonable to me.)
By the way, is there a single word that describes Martial Archetypes/Roguish Archetypes/Divine Domains/Arcane Traditions? Perhaps the characters' "Specialization"?

[eastmabl]

There is no explicit rule that permits for this.

Changing one's subclass is subject to the DM's informed discretion, and should involve some level of retraining.

As a DM myself, I would have the character "unlearn" all existing subclass features and replace them with the new subclass features. Why?


It's simpler.
Not all subclass features are equally as powerful.
It prevents cherry-picking features from each subclass.

[ruy343]

As a DM, I would probably allow it within reason. Sometimes, a player picks the wrong archetype and believes that they would have more fun with a different one, so I would allow them to switch. I don't DM AL, so I can't say that my interpretations are valid for that format.

However, since it means that the character is largely changed, I would try to include an in-character reason for the sudden switch. The character will not behave very differently in and out of combat, so there should be an in-character reason for it.

However, if a player asks to switch subclasses when the target subclass gains access to a cool ability (playing a battlemaster fighter all the way to level 17, then wanting to switch to champion just for the regeneration, since the battlemaster isn't scaling much anymore), I might be more skeptical. I'd probably still allow it (it's just a game), but if it was AL, I wouldn't have allowed it anyways.

[Joe the Rat]

I don't DM AL, so I can't say that my interpretations are valid for that format. You can do character rebuilds up to level 4.
I'd recommend rebuilding over going a la carte. This is particularly important on Arcane Trickster (and Eldritch Knight), since you'd essentially have to decide how many "levels" of spellcasting to put in there.

That said, unless you really want the AT features, not just the spells, multiclassing into a caster or grabbing Magic Initiate or Ritual Caster would be a fair alternative.

[Zanthy1]

I had a guy who wanted to do this, I treated it as a multiclass (into the same class). So at level 8 he was a level 4 thief and level 4 assassin.

[Sigreid]

As a DM I would probably once let the player do this and the reality of the game world would simply pretend that that's what he was the whole time.

[Malifice]

Yeah, I'd totally allow it.

PC can study under the tutlage of a Wizard or something similar for a level or so (or some equally appropriate length of time) and change out abilities.

Breaks nothing, is realistic and enhances the game.

[Douche]

If you want to respec you need to bring a soul vessel to the old crones at Things Betwixt. The slug lady in the Cathedral of the Deep can also do it but you need to bring her the tongue of a slain foe, and she'll only do it 5 times. On the bright side, she can also do plastic surgery

[Addaran]

If you want to respec you need to bring a soul vessel to the old crones at Things Betwixt. The slug lady in the Cathedral of the Deep can also do it but you need to bring her the tongue of a slain foe, and she'll only do it 5 times. On the bright side, she can also do plastic surgery

Or you could go fight the Thorn Tree in Nerva Archipelago. If you're a villain. :smallcool:

[Maxilian]

The only class that can change Archetype by RAW are the Paladins (by breaking their oath) but that may end up on your character becoming a NPC (Depending how your DM deals with Evil PC -Though it may not force you to be Evil -depends a lot on how/why you broke your oath-)

[Renvir]

From a role playing perspective it is a little weird that archetypes are locked down once you pick them but multi-classing is largely fine as long as you meet the attribute requirements. The difference between a Thief and an Arcane Trickster is way less than a Thief and a Moon Druid. Yet, in 5E you can be a Draconic Sorcerer Assassin but not a Battle Master Champion. I get why they did this from a game design perspective (varying power of abilities, clarity of benefits per level, nonsensical pairings, etc.) but that doesn't mean it isn't weird.

I did manage a work around to this for a player who was an evocation wizard that wanted to go divination. He started at divination level 1 and every time he leveled up in divination he would get any abilities that were unique to the divination archetype but wouldn't get double dips of non-archetype abilities (doesn't get double cantrips, spell slots, arcane recovery). His spell slot progression proceeded the same as if he had multi-classed into another full caster. So if he went with a 10/10 split he could cast spells using 6, 7, 8, or 9th level spell slots but they couldn't be 6, 7, 8, or 9th level spells. We both agreed it was a powerful class but the trade-off of higher level spells, spell mastery, and signature spell were balanced enough for the campaign.

Using that format for the Thief/Trickster I would say his proficiency, HP, and sneak attack damage should increase as normal but he only gets new features when he gets a Trickster Archetype ability or ASI. Spells known, spell slots, cantrips known, and the spells known of 1st level or higher would all be based on the Trickster levels and not the rogues overall level.

[djreynolds]

"When you are done monkeying around over there, there's a dragon that need's to die."

I let players make changes all the time, whatever. Sometimes they just have to see whether or not the grass is truly greener on the other side.

And I like it when changes are made by in game influences and not from a website.

It could be, just give the thief the magic initiate feat or throw him a cantrip.

The sad thing is when changes are made because you trying to measure yourself next to the paladin in combat.

The same paladin who failed his stealth check and woke the dragon.
The same paladin who interrupted the bard, and told the dragon he was evil and has to die.

2 instances where non-combat skills won the day.

[BeefGood]

Thanks all. The magic-related Feats sound like a good way to go.

[Armored Walrus]

I had a guy who wanted to do this, I treated it as a multiclass (into the same class). So at level 8 he was a level 4 thief and level 4 assassin.

That's how I would have done it.

[Zanthy1]

That's how I would have done it.

It makes more sense. Instead of rewriting the character, have him research how to change. Think like a career change. You've been working as a lawyer for 20 years, now you want to be a therapist. You don't lose you lawyer knowledge, but you have to learn your therapy knowledge