Level 30 contest for anyone sufficiently bored.

[Devigor]

I want to see a 30 level build that is completely rules-legal, with no homebrew, that has as many of these as possible:
• Arcane casting, divine casting, psionic manifesting, artificer infusions, eldritch invoking, shadowcasting, and maneuver/stance initiating. Each of these max'd out to the highest whatever-level (9th level arcane spells compared to 6th level infusions, for example) grants 20 points. Each of these not max'd grants 10 points.
• Soulmelds, spell-like/psi-like/supernatural/extraordinary abilities, bonus feats, and permanent stat increases. Each soulmeld slot filled grants 10 points, each SLA/PLA/Su/Ex ability grants 5 points, each bonus feat grants 15 points, and each point permanently added to stats grants 5 points.
• If a lot of things overlap (or similar, such as if your bonus feats and soulmelds both only do things low-level spells can do anyway), you have your point total.
• If few things overlap (or similar, such as if your bonus feats and soulmelds both do some things only high-level spells can do), multiply your points by 2.
• If nothing overlaps whatsoever (and your bonus feats and soulmelds can't be replicated by anything except 9th level spells or other ridiculous things), multiply your points by 3.

Why do you have to be sufficiently bored? No reward, is why. I mean, I guess I could give advice on something or be interweb friends, but thassabout it. I am imagining an oldschool arcade game that just has a d&d 3.5 character sheet on it.

EXTRA NOTE: If you can get your build in before epic levels, you get double points!

[Inevitability]

In before Pun-Pun.

[AvatarVecna]

Mind Flayer race, Illithid RHD 8/Illithid LA 7/Illithid Savant 10/Psion 5/Thrallherd 1 with the "Wedded To History" feat. Buy off the 7th LA when you hit 21 HD, and you've got an immortal who can steal class features by eating brains who has a class feature that gives him a new Thrall every time the old one dies. This character will eventually have every ability in the game (and I'm sure there's a multitude of ways to bring this build online earlier, to speed up the process, or many other things you can do to improve it).

[Devigor]

In before Pun-Pun.

Pun-Pun has been so debated I don't count it as rules-legal. I'd allow Pun-Pun in my game if the players could get around me being evil to them, but it isn't for... Really anyone else.


Mind Flayer race, Illithid RHD 8/Illithid LA 7/Illithid Savant 10/Psion 5/Thrallherd 1 with the "Wedded To History" feat. Buy off the 7th LA when you hit 21 HD, and you've got an immortal who can steal class features by eating brains who has a class feature that gives him a new Thrall every time the old one dies. This character will eventually have every ability in the game (and I'm sure there's a multitude of ways to bring this build online earlier, to speed up the process, or many other things you can do to improve it).

Oooo! Shiny! I remember this from somewhere, and I am pretty sure it's completely legal (gonna check it just in case, of course). With absolute minimum effort (just enough required to grab everything on my list), you still reach almost 1,000 points. Nicely done! I'm going to add on to the bottom that versions that come online at 20 or earlier will have double points, just because you mentioned it.

[AvatarVecna]

Oooo! Shiny! I remember this from somewhere, and I am pretty sure it's completely legal (gonna check it just in case, of course). With absolute minimum effort (just enough required to grab everything on my list), you still reach almost 1,000 points. Nicely done! I'm going to add on to the bottom that versions that come online at 20 or earlier will have double points, just because you mentioned it.

For what it's worth, the only reason this build can't accomplish just as much theoretically by 20 as 30 is because they can't buy off LA before lvl 21. Illithid RHD 8/Illithid LA 7/Illithid Savant 5 gives you 2 stolen skills, 1 stolen class feature, 1 stolen feat, and 1 stolen SA/SQ per consumed brain, but you have to actually track down and subdue individuals to eat their brains; the full lvl 30 build I provided accomplishes this much faster (gaining 4 skills, 3 class features, 3 feats, and 2 SA/SQ per consumed brain), has a class feature guaranteeing them 1 high level character per day who is probably the kind of character they were looking for and won't fight back when the Illithid eats their brains, and is immortal (although that one can be present on the lvl 20 version as well).

The one really quick way to speed up this build to the point that it works before lvl 20 is to have your lvl 20 version (Illithid RHD 8/LA 7/Savant 5) take Leadership for a cohort who is "X 8/Thrallherd 10". That thrallherd attracts two thralls, both of whom are "X 7/Thrallherd 10". You eat the brains of the two thralls (one for the "Thrallherd" class ability, and the other for the "Twofold Master" class ability). Day two, your cohort calls forth 1 ECL 17 thrall and 1 ECL 16 thrall, both of whom should also be Thrallherd 10s; you call forth 1 ECL 19 thrall (who is Illithid RHD 8/LA 7/Savant 4) and 1 ECL 18 thrall (who is also a Thrallherd 10). Your Illithid Savant thrall eats the brains of two of the Thrallherd 10s for the "Thrallherd" and "Twofold Master" class abilities, and the remaining enthralled Thrallherd goes unmolested. Day 3 comes, and you (the ECL 20) are the only on with both the Thrallherd/Twofold Master abilities and living thralls; your cohort Thrallherd (ECL 18), your thralled Illithid (ECL 19) and your thralled Thrallherd (ECL 18) each call forth two thralls, whose ECLs are 18/17/17/17/16/16, none of whom are eaten.

This pattern continues down each chain until you can no longer summon thralls who have 10 Thrallherd levels (ECL 15); including your original cohort and two thralls, you have 1 ECL 19/3 ECL 18/4 ECL 17/7 ECL 16/11 ECL 15/18 ECL 14/11 ECL 13. The 29 ECL 13-14 thralls will not be thrallherds, but will be of different classes whose abilities you would like. At this point, your Illithid Savant (and your mini-me thrall) can gorge yourselves daily on those 29 brains (split up however you choose); sure, they'll be dead, but 29 more ECL 13-14 characters will show up to replace them. If you decide you want higher level abilities, you have ECL 15/16/17/18/19 thralls that you can replace by eating their brains and waiting a little while.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think I will use this:

A more cheesy trick involves the use of fusion and astral seed to combine many more class abilities into one character. You could easily get full casting and manifesting at ECL ~10, for example like so:

0) Start with psionic artificer 16 with 120 500 XP, and fill a thought bottle. Make sure you have a familiar or psicrystal. Then lose a level. You are now level 15, with 112 500 XP.
1) Craft an item of fusion (ML 15), one of greater metamorphosis (ML 17), and one of astral seed (ML 15).
2) Use greater metamorphosis to turn your psicrystal into something with good abilities and no more than 17 HD, like a choker. Take a fusion-compatible form with good abilities.
3) Execute the fusion + astral seed combo with your psicrystal.
4) Repeat 2-3 with a chronotryn, thoon elder brain, elemental weird, and black ethergaunt, in that order.
5) You are now level 10, with at least six standards, three moves and three swifts per round (three turns), 16th-level sorcerer casting, and 16th-level wizard casting. You also have the abilities of a Small+ abberation, a Large+ magical beast, a Large+ abberation, a Large+ elemental, and a Medium+ abberation - all of your choice.
6) Seek out a proper elder brain. It has 26 hit dice, so you cannot emulate it with greater metamorphosis.
7) Execute the fusion + astral seed combo one more time.
8) You are now ECL 9 with nine artificer levels, plus the abilities mentioned under 5 - minus a level of sorcerer and wizard casting - and 19th-level telepath manifesting.
9) Touch your thought bottle. This sets your XP back at 120 000, giving you 16 class levels. If you can reassign levels, go to 10b, else go to 10a.
10a) You're back to artificer 16, which goes nicely with wizard 15, sorcerer 15, psion 19, and three turns per round.
10b) You can now take a level in wizard, one in telepath, and five levels in Mind Mage. This gives you 19th-level wizard casting, 23rd-level telepath manifesting, and still the 15th-level sorcerer casting.

This is a relatively low-key and low-optimization execution of the combo. By taking the abilities of a barghest, you can use the same combo without HD loss. I have assumed that the class HD loss leads to immediate loss of racial casting, as well, which is not completely certain by RAW, because there is no specification of how, say, elemental weirds gain casting with HD. If you do not lose casting by repeatedly dying, you have that much more power (+3 levels sorc, +2 wiz, +1 telepath).
With things like the barghest's Feed, non-conservative RAW on casting-per-HD, and nested thought bottles (if you still need them with the barghest HD), you can use this principle to get all sorts of wacky abilities at level 1, then add 19 class levels to advance those abilities (Mind Mage is my favourite), giving you level 30-35 casting at level 20. If you want abilities that greater metamorphosis cannot give you, find the actual monsters. Two dozen or so stolen borrowed abilities from metamorphosis should be enough to wreck most CR <20 monsters. For stronger monsters, I like Pandorym mind shards, and all of the ELH, of course.

Incidentally, the initial fusions are with your psicrystal because it's a fraction of your personality, so the DM is unlikely to rule that you get personality conflicts with the things you fuse with. If you can't regain psicrystals, you probably have to use psychic reformation to remove and re-add Psicrystal Affinity every cycle.

[Gruftzwerg]

check "BoBaFeat", another way to reach pun pun power level.

[Vaz]

Pun-Pun has been so debated I don't count it as rules-legal. I'd allow Pun-Pun in my game if the players could get around me being evil to them, but it isn't for... Really anyone else.
Pun Pun is completely legal. There are optimizers who want to make the character as early as possible, because that's what CharOp does, but in reality, anything that can get Manipulate Form, Wish and a Familiar is able to get the ball rolling. Every debate against him is reliant on the DM rule-0ing the possibility of him out of existence, the most obvious by saying that there's no path through to Toril, and the Sarrukh's do not exist in his setting, which is not reliant on the "rules".

[Echch]

Pun Pun is completely legal. There are optimizers who want to make the character as early as possible, because that's what CharOp does, but in reality, anything that can get Manipulate Form, Wish and a Familiar is able to get the ball rolling. Every debate against him is reliant on the DM rule-0ing the possibility of him out of existence, the most obvious by saying that there's no path through to Toril, and the Sarrukh's do not exist in his setting, which is not reliant on the "rules".

Isn't rule 0 an actual rule in the DMG somewhere? As in, the DM can approve and disapprove stuff?
I belive that was the case, because I can remember someone from earlier editions being confused about why he cannot use Mineral Warrior.

[Devigor]

Pun Pun is completely legal. There are optimizers who want to make the character as early as possible, because that's what CharOp does, but in reality, anything that can get Manipulate Form, Wish and a Familiar is able to get the ball rolling. Every debate against him is reliant on the DM rule-0ing the possibility of him out of existence, the most obvious by saying that there's no path through to Toril, and the Sarrukh's do not exist in his setting, which is not reliant on the "rules".

... I haven't seen all incarnations of Pun-Pun, but so far as I recall, there are many arguments that have nothing to do with Rule-0-ing him out of existence. Like I said, I'd say it was legal myself, but the debate is still there.

As for the fusion + arcane seed combo, that definitely counts for this. About on par with the mind flayer, from what I can tell.

BoBaFeat trounces the others so far in score, just by numbers of SLAs, not even counting the rest.

[Strigon]

Isn't rule 0 an actual rule in the DMG somewhere? As in, the DM can approve and disapprove stuff?
I belive that was the case, because I can remember someone from earlier editions being confused about why he cannot use Mineral Warrior.

Well, yes, but when discussing whether something is rules-legal, you kind of have to ignore that. Otherwise, everything - literally everything - enters a quantum state of being both rules legal and illegal, until you open the box ask your DM.

[Gruftzwerg]

Ok, since all information have been gathered, I guess it is time to solve (or break!^^) the request.

The request was to gain everything in 30 levels. But you only need 20.

Take BoBaFeat to gain pun pun power level @lvl 20 and add the Fusion + Astral Seed Combo for the spellcaster & manifester types you want to gain. Mission accomplished 10 levels earlier than requested.

Or just start out with Fusion + Astral Seed Combo to gain access to BoB & Moment of Clarity (Void Disciple lvl4 ability). Maybe hard to find the right targets but could be possible.

Do we get some candy now?? =)

[Jormengand]

each SLA/PLA/Su/Ex ability grants 5 points, each bonus feat grants 15 points

Truenamer 20? I'm counting 145 for utterances, 50 for class features, and 30 for bonus feats, times three for no overlap at all, times two for nonepic, for a total of 1350 points.

EDIT: Forgot reversed LEM utterances: 1950 points.

[plinths]

... I haven't seen all incarnations of Pun-Pun, but so far as I recall, there are many arguments that have nothing to do with Rule-0-ing him out of existence. Like I said, I'd say it was legal myself, but the debate is still there.

As for the fusion + arcane seed combo, that definitely counts for this. About on par with the mind flayer, from what I can tell.

BoBaFeat trounces the others so far in score, just by numbers of SLAs, not even counting the rest.

If I was the DM, here are some things I might say about those:

- OK, you use the Candle to cast Gate, and you summon an Efreeti. Oh, you want it to use its Wish spell-like ability? That costs XP, and it demands appropriate payment first.

- The Efreeti is annoyed, and gives you a twisted interpretation of your wish.

- A Sarrukh? You don't know what that is.

- Moment of Clarity? You can't grant that feat, the prerequisites aren't met.

On the other hand, I'd probably allow a Jumplomancer or Nanite build. :smalltongue:

[Emperor Tippy]

...Ardent 2/ Ur-Priest 2/ Wizard 7/ Mystic Theuge 7 gets you triple 9's at ECL 18 (and no, that build isn't in the appropriate leveling order).

Use Vow of Poverty plus Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos and you can manage anything else that can be done with enough feats. Put 2 levels of an Initiator class on the end (HD 29 and 30) and you will get 9th level maneuvers.

---
If you are actually willing to optimize then you can fit every single ability in the game onto a character at ECL 20 without even touching Manipulate Form.

[Inevitability]

If I was a DM, here are some things I might say about those:

- OK, you use the Candle to cast Gate, and you summon an Efreeti. Oh, you want it to use it's Wish spell-like ability? That costs XP, and it demands appropriate payment first.

- The Efreeti is annoyed, and gives you a twisted interpretation of your wish.

- A Sarrukh? You don't know what that is.

- Moment of Clarity? You can't grant that feat, the prerequisites aren't met.

1. Using SLA's never costs XP.

2. Mindrape the Efreeti. Sure, it takes a 9th-level spell, but who cares if we've got 30 levels to work with?

3. Knowledge checks.

4. MoC doesn't require prerequisites to be met.

[plinths]

1. Using SLA's never costs XP.

2. Mindrape the Efreeti. Sure, it takes a 9th-level spell, but who cares if we've got 30 levels to work with?

3. Knowledge checks.

4. MoC doesn't require prerequisites to be met.

1) Hmm, that's true. But Gate says:
"If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service."
Using Wish might not be "longer" but I'd rule it as being "more involved". Thus requiring payment.

3) It might not exist in your game's universe.

4) It doesn't say it doesn't, so I'd rule that the normal feat rules apply.

[Vaz]

If I was the DM, here are some things I might say about those:

- OK, you use the Candle to cast Gate, and you summon an Efreeti. Oh, you want it to use its Wish spell-like ability? That costs XP, and it demands appropriate payment first.

- The Efreeti is annoyed, and gives you a twisted interpretation of your wish.

- A Sarrukh? You don't know what that is.

- Moment of Clarity? You can't grant that feat, the prerequisites aren't met.

On the other hand, I'd probably allow a Jumplomancer or Nanite build. :smalltongue:

1. I don't need a Candle to do so. I can cast Shapechange. Those "optimizing" tricks are done to get it done ASAP. Also, That's not what the rules say. While I respect your opinion and right as the DM to arbitrarily change the rules to suit your setting and gaming needs, that's irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
2. I don't need to be Annoying an Efreeti. I can be a Wizard.
3. Not only do I know what a Sarrukh is, am I not required to actually know what the Sarrukh is (by RAW) to turn into it. Regardless, as a Wizard 20, I have an Intelligence in the realms of 34, and a Skill Check modifier of +37 at minimum, when it's a DC24 check to know about the Sarrukh. The Sarrukh is part of the typical game (the Plane of Shadow connects to Toril), so it need the DM to actively fiat somethings non-existance.
4. Moment of Clarity is not a Feat. And it doesn't matter either way, as the Sarrukh's Manipulate Form ability allows you to do anything. Again, you're going to need to actively affect the rules of the game.

Any comments in regards to legality of Pun Pun simply refer to the World Records in which people try to shave it down to making it early as possible, which may hold some water. However, outside of that, the Sarrukh's ability is watertight.

It's poorly written, but it does what it does on the tin. It can give a creature an ability. It doesn't have to be any particular ability. It can create one. The only way that Pun-Pun doesn't work, and doesn't achieve omnipotency, is that something stops him early enough, hence the race to get it early as possible.

A DM can EASILY stop someone from becoming Pun-Pun (the simplest thing being that Pun-Pun already exists and he squishes the guy before hand). That's not the issue. The issue is that people are saying it's not legal, when it's entirely legal, especially when you miss out the short cuts to getting it ASAP.

[plinths]

1. I don't need a Candle to do so. I can cast Shapechange.
2. I don't need to be Annoying an Efreeti. I can be a Wizard.
3. Not only do I know what a Sarrukh is, am I not required to actually know what the Sarrukh is (by RAW) to turn into it.

1) Nope, Shapechange doesn't grant spell-like abilities. And the DMG doesn't say anything about how "involved" granting Wishes is. Gate says payment is needed if service is longer OR more involved than fighting for 1 round/CL.

3) The Sarrukh is, IIRC, from the Forgotten Realms campaign setting. Doesn't have to exist in your game's universe.

4) That was a response to BoBaFeat.

[Dr.Samurai]

No way to prove this in any way since the forums are long gone, but I used to go by Khan the Destroyer on the WotC boards and I created Pun-Pun. With the 30 levels given in this challenge, I don't see what about Pun-Pun can be debated.

Granted, I obviously don't see much to be debated about the level 1 build I introduced at the end, but we're talking about level 30 here. All you are doing is using the regular powers any wizard has to get Manipulate Form. Done.

If it makes anyone feel better, just don't call it Pun-Pun lol.

[Inevitability]

1) Nope, Shapechange doesn't grant spell-like abilities. And the DMG doesn't say anything about how "involved" granting Wishes is. Gate says payment is needed if service is longer OR more involved than fighting for 1 round/CL.

3) The Sarrukh is, IIRC, from the Forgotten Realms campaign setting. Doesn't have to exist in your game's universe.

4) That was a response to BoBaFeat.

1. Then turn into a Zodar, which has Wish as a (Su).

3. Yeah, but all campaign settings are linked through the Plane of Shadow.

[Dr.Samurai]

Plinths, are you suggesting there is no way to gain the Manipulate Form ability?

[plinths]

Plinths, are you suggesting there is no way to gain the Manipulate Form ability?

No, there probably is, unless the DM says that there are no Sarrukhs in the game universe.

But assuming you get a Sarrukh under control, I'd still say the maximum on Manipulate Form is the creature's base attribute, not modified by enhancement or size bonuses.

Anyway, because "A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it." you can just grant every ability that Dr. Strange and Galactus have, as written. So the whole thing about ability scores is unnecessary.

[Gruftzwerg]

- Moment of Clarity? You can't grant that feat, the prerequisites aren't met.


Sorry to say this, but I made sure that I would meet the requirements, so that no DM wouldn't have anything to argue and have had to apply rule0 (disallow it, which is totally valid, for this kind of builds).
If you are arguing about the needed epic feats, you just go Dragonwrought Kobold and there is nothing left to argue about.
And as others have pointed out you don't need to meet the prerequisites to gain the feat via MoC, but you are right assuming that sometimes (like in this combo) you still need to meet the requirements to make the feat/ability usable (like Innate Spell requires you to sacrifice a spell slot to empower it). But if you have unlimited access to feats & skillranks, you'll meet (almost) all requirements (only special class/race requirements aren't possible without the apply of further cheese).

[Dr.Samurai]

No, there probably is, unless the DM says that there are no Sarrukhs in the game universe.
Sure, the DM is free to say anything. But if the Sarruhk exists, you can get Manipulate Form.

But assuming you get a Sarrukh under control, I'd still say the maximum on Manipulate Form is the creature's base attribute, not modified by enhancement or size bonuses.
You are free to say that, but this isn't an argument against the build, simply the method you would employ to curb its power.

Anyway, because "A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it." you can just grant every ability that Dr. Strange and Galactus have, as written. So the whole thing about ability scores is unnecessary.
We specifically avoided using abilities that didn't exist in an official sourcebook. Otherwise it defeats the purpose of optimization :smallsmile:.

[Jormengand]

Truenamer 20? I'm counting 145 for utterances, 50 for class features, and 30 for bonus feats, times three for no overlap at all, times two for nonepic, for a total of 1350 points.

EDIT: Forgot reversed LEM utterances: 1950 points.

Building on this, I am of course gonna sneak in Vow of Poverty, which adds another (165 for bonus feats + 75 for ex/su abilities + 100 for ability score increases)*6 = 2040 more points. I'm gonna spend all of my feats on things that are actually supernatural or spell-like abilities, and because I get twenty of them, that means that I can get another 600 points, except that there are still 7 more low-level evolving mind utterances to take which can be taken with feats, so actually I get 27 SLAs for 810 more points, meaning that's a total of 4,800. If I'm a silverbrow human I get a SLA, a feat that's a bonus feat and that I can use to get another SLA, meaning that I get another 150 for a total of 4950 points.

Of course, serious character optimisation can easily do better, but this character can get pretty high during character creation.

[GilesTheCleric]

No way to prove this in any way since the forums are long gone, but I used to go by Khan the Destroyer on the WotC boards and I created Pun-Pun. With the 30 levels given in this challenge, I don't see what about Pun-Pun can be debated.

I belive that thread is archived in the Index of 3.X WotC Threads. See my sig.

[Dr.Samurai]

I belive that thread is archived in the Index of 3.X WotC Threads. See my sig.
I meant more that I can't simply log in on the thread to demonstrate that I am Khan the Destroyer, since it no longer exists.

I thought Awaken DM Golem had the entire thread archived somewhere but now I can't seem to find it. Only copies of the first post. Unless I'm missing it somewhere in the link in your sig.

[Devigor]

Hmm... As the DM who owns this profile and sees this thread created by one of his players, I have to say this is interesting. I'm curious if there's a way to get 9th level arcane/divine/psionic/shadowcasting/maneuvers & stances, and 6th level infusing that I'd allow the poor bloke to attempt to use.

Generally, as long as the player does the bookkeeping, I allow the character. I just don't let them do ridiculois things with the character they make. I'd allow Pun-Pun, but any time he stepped "out-of-bounds" (like Magic Jar-ing the whole planet), I would mercilessly twist the wording of everything involved to make him rue the attempt.

Similarly, I'd say he could try BobaFeat, but I'd make some half-inane (yet sensical) effects trigger from every step of the process. Overloading an area with clones? Draining ALL of the mana from an area to power that is going to create a Dead Magic zone... All clones beyond the first few dozen disappear.