Who would win in a fight between Warlock & Sorcerer

[Douche]

Hello all,

Apparently my topics are causing something of a fuss. So I will change the rules again. This is a work in progress.

First off, I think this is important enough to mention first - some people have mentioned actually having a fight on roll20. If you would like to do this, please arrange it amongst yourselves. I'll try to help - if you say you want to do it, mention which class you'd like to play and I will edit this comment to make a list... but arranging the battle & such, I leave to you guys.

- Both combatants know they will be fighting each other tomorrow. They're both level 8, with ability scores of 18,18,15,12,9 to distribute as they choose (before racial bonus & ASI). I'm not sure if I want to add this level of complexity, but they can also multiclass up to level 2 in fighter or paladin, if they choose (does this favor the warlock too much? Sorcerers typically also multiclass into those, right?).

- The fight will take place INSIDE A VOLCANO with the tomb of a demi-lich suspended by chains in the middle. The chains are long enough to walk upon, they can go inside the tomb as well as on ledges outside. Please use the map for reference. If they make too much noise the demi-lich will awaken and destroy them all.
http://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/blog_header/b5/B5574N7RYBL41426279415991.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Vw237U4tYYM/USBa5wU4USI/AAAAAAAAEq4/WPLIwCoe-h4/s1600/Chromehound+Map.jpg
Ignore the red circle. That's someone else's highlight

Edit: thanks to CursedRhubarb, it has come to light that the demi-lich was a stolid hater of polymorph, sleep, and other hard CC effects which would allow someone to cheese the fight & throw them helplessly into the lava. If someone were to employ such a cowardly tactic, the glyphs surrounding his tomb would activate and cast 50 disintegrates & 50 finger of death spells at the transgressor, as well as a 9th level counterspell to nullify the effect

- They have been sealed inside the volcano by an angry king & cannot leave. You see, the warlock & sorcerer have been feuding for years and it has been taking its toll upon the land. The king is fed up with it. He has sealed the volcano with a great magic barrier so that neither of them can leave (even through teleportation). Also, the volcano is going to erupt in 7 days. The barrier will only disappear after one or both of them is dead

BONUS (but separate from main discussion): in the 24 hours prior to the match, they can convince the king to just execute the other guy - but the only thing that would possibly convince him of that is by stealing a sacred artifact from a templar order on the other side of the world (at least a months travel) and bringing it back before the match starts. Can either one achieve this?

[Aembrosia]

Oh boy. Looking forward to this. Excellent premise and matchup. They both have amazing burst and low hp. Initiative might win this. Its for the better that we're playing at level 8. I would hate to be on the receiving end of a fiend lock's hurl through hell.

[RickAllison]

Oh boy. Looking forward to this. Excellent premise and matchup. They both have amazing burst and low hp. Initiative might win this. Its for the better that we're playing at level 8. I would hate to be on the receiving end of a fiend lock's hurl through hell.

Indeed. I think the setup doesn't really reflect the straight class v. class like the other threads did, but it is a very interesting premise.

[Specter]

Sorcerer counterspells the 2 spells Warlock has going for him and buries him in lava. Done.

[CursedRhubarb]

This could be a rough one and I'd have to agree it would mostly come down to who won initiative. I'd recommend putting a ban on the Sleep, Hypnotic Pattern, and Polymorph, or other hard CC spells or it pretty much becomes whoever sees the other first wins. Health would pretty much be even so Sleep would need almost the exact same rolls for a KO then drop into the magma. Polymorph and Hypnotic Pattern, the Lock has Wis save prof but it still is a save or be dropped in the magma.

Avoiding CC spells, It is possible the Lock Could have a huge advantage over the Sorcerer though. At lvl 8 a Tome Lock Could spend the week heading up to the fight casting Divination to find out what spells the other has and where they will be and what they will do and where they will go at the start then blast away from outside the Sorcerer's range. If they get to use CC Divination for a week would let the lock be prepared to know where the Sorcerer will be and might be able to catch the Sorcerer by Surprise, getting a CC off before the Sorcerer even gets to act.

Once in range the Sorcerer could have the upper hand with damage potential. A few lightning bolts would make quick work of the Lock and being able to do Haste+Quicken Spell would mean 2 Lightning Bolts and a cantrip for a couple turns.

Lock can do some nice solid damage with Hex+Eldritch Blast, possibly launching the Sorcerer off the edge to make them eat up spells to avoid the sploosh of doom but they don't have the surge output the Sorcerer does.

[Socratov]

Sorcerer counterspells the 2 spells Warlock has going for him and buries him in lava. Done.

Easier: sorcerer has wish: wish to get the item requested by the king to get the warlock executed.

Will work in 66,7% of the time.

But given that we are unlucky and we draw the 33.3% pain:

well, both classes have counterspell, but the sorc is immune for counterspell due to Subtle Metamagic if hte sorc goes first, use subtle metamagic to utterly destroy warlock with subtle spell incapacitate and damage.

If the sorcerer does not go first, survivehurl through hell or dark delerium (create thrall needs you to be incapacitated), or counterspell spell, use spellslot, once turn comes 'round, proceed to ruin warlock's day with subtle spell incapacitate+pain.

[WickerNipple]

Easier: sorcerer has wish: wish to get the item requested by the king to get the warlock executed.

Will work in 66,7% of the time.

But given that we are unlucky and we draw the 33.3% pain:

well, both classes have counterspell, but the sorc is immune for counterspell due to Subtle Metamagic if hte sorc goes first, use subtle metamagic to utterly destroy warlock with subtle spell incapacitate and damage.

If the sorcerer does not go first, survivehurl through hell or dark delerium (create thrall needs you to be incapacitated), or counterspell spell, use spellslot, once turn comes 'round, proceed to ruin warlock's day with subtle spell incapacitate+pain.

Level 8....

[Finieous]

Seems like a pretty good setup for Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Repelling Blast + Eldritch Spear + Spell Sniper. Then the sorcerer turtles and everyone gets mad and quits.

[JellyPooga]

Does the King have a way to verify the authenticity of the Artefact? If not, either one could potentially use illusory magic to fake it.

Also, is the Warlocks Patron able to intercede beyond the Class Features the Class grants? What if he has an Imp or Quasit familiar? Could he send his familiar to ask one of his bigger, nastier cousins to hefp (by retrieving the artefact or in the fight itself)?

I'm assuming not on any of these cases, as it defeats the "spirit" of the contest, but just thought I'd point out the possibilities.

[DragonSorcererX]

The Dragonborn Dragon Sorcerer wins of course! If you kill him he unleashes his true form as a Celestial Advanced Great Wyrm Gold Dragon with Divine Rank 0! Fluff > Crunch (Unless you are a Anything Thief, Anything Elemental Monk, Anything Champion, Anything Wild Sorcerer, Halfling/Hobbit/Kender, if you are one of these trash you should die (on real life)!)!

Edit: Those attributes look like they where rolled, if both character are using those stats they should die!

[JellyPooga]

The Dragonborn Dragon Sorcerer wins of course! If you kill him he unleashes his true form as a Celestial Advanced Great Wyrm Gold Dragon with Divine Rank 0! Fluff > Crunch (Unless you are a Anything Thief, Anything Elemental Monk, Anything Champion, Anything Wild Sorcerer, Halfling/Hobbit/Kender, if you are one of these trash you should die (on real life)!)!

Not if he can't stop the Warlock from completing the ritual involving the Demiliches tomb, to summon his Lord and Mighty Patron unto this realm...

[Cl0001]

Well... With those stats, one could make a mean blade pact warlock. I don't know what the rules on feats are, as I don't know if those stats were rolled or came from a stat buy system. But if the warlock got within melee range, he would decimate the sorcerer. Also the fight should be easily cheesed with the invocation that pushes targets 10ft back if hit by an Eldritch blast. If that sorcerer was near lava he'd be dead after that.

[Douche]

Well... With those stats, one could make a mean blade pact warlock. I don't know what the rules on feats are, as I don't know if those stats were rolled or came from a stat buy system. But if the warlock got within melee range, he would decimate the sorcerer. Also the fight should be easily cheesed with the invocation that pushes targets 10ft back if hit by an Eldritch blast. If that sorcerer was near lava he'd be dead after that.

To the angry man, yes let's say they're rolled.

To address your question, they have 2 ASIs so they can pick up feats or raise their stats even further.

I decided to give them pre-made stats so people don't have to worry so much about modifiers & can discuss feats more, because I find that to be a more compelling conversation than whether they have a +4 or a +5. I also made them high like that so people wouldn't decide to use ASI on their stats & had more freedom to choose feats


Sorcerer counterspells the 2 spells Warlock has going for him and buries him in lava. Done.

He counterspelled eldritch blast 2 rounds in a row & wasted his spells.

[ClintACK]

Seems like a pretty good setup for Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Repelling Blast + Eldritch Spear + Spell Sniper. Then the sorcerer turtles and everyone gets mad and quits.

This sounds right.

If the Warlock can line the shot up right, Repelling Blast will even toss the Sorcerer off the edge...

[NecroDancer]

Whoever wins initiative gets a HUGE advantage. However I believe the warlock wins this because of of the reliable damage Eldritch blast(+ invocations). However if the sorcerer is a wild magic sorcerer and gets REALLY lucky he could win without blinking an eye (or he could turn himself into a potted plant).

[Rysto]

Is reliable damage really so important in a 1v1 fight? If the Warlock can't get short rests, the Sorcerer gets an awful lot more non-cantrips to sling before he has to resort to cantrips himself. Over the course of an adventuring day things even out but in a single fight that the Sorcerer can nova, I'm not sure EB by itself is that big of an advantage.

[tieren]

Sorcerer can pump a lot more damage in a shorter time with the metamagics, but for most of his damage spells needs to see the target.

If lock goes darkness and devil's sight will significantly hamper the sorcerer.

Assuming they start within sight of each other it would probably come down to initiative.

[Socratov]

Sorcerer can pump a lot more damage in a shorter time with the metamagics, but for most of his damage spells needs to see the target.

If lock goes darkness and devil's sight will significantly hamper the sorcerer.

Assuming they start within sight of each other it would probably come down to initiative.

if we get lvl 8, that opens up Hold Person, but other stuff like Blindness/Dafness and Stinking Cloud are also great. Make them subtle spell and they can't be counterspelled. Make them Heighten spell and the warlock is a lot more likely to either be dlind/deaf (try finding the sorcerer now)/ All the sorcerer needs is once to land the save-or-suck (not hard given heighten) and the warlock is toast. Other options include AOE spells to counter the darkness trick (darkness only can be cast on stuff you touch). And to get the time, well, 4th level gives the sorcerer the option to go for Greater Invisibility and a 3rd lvl gaseous form to infiltrate the place, get the macguffin and get out.

[Rysto]

A Wild Magic Sorcerer can add Bend Luck for -1d4 to the Warlock's save.

[tieren]

A Wild Magic Sorcerer can add Bend Luck for -1d4 to the Warlock's save.

Fiend patron warlock can use Dark One's Own Luck to add 1d10 to the save.

Overall I think it is advantage Sorcerer, but if the warlock wins initiative and gets darkness in place without it being countered, he might have a shot.

[Citan]

Hello all,

Apparently my topics are causing something of a fuss. So I will change the rules again. This is a work in progress.

First off, I think this is important enough to mention first - some people have mentioned actually having a fight on roll20. If you would like to do this, please arrange it amongst yourselves. I'll try to help - if you say you want to do it, mention which class you'd like to play and I will edit this comment to make a list... but arranging the battle & such, I leave to you guys.

- Both combatants know they will be fighting each other tomorrow. They're both level 8, with ability scores of 18,18,15,12,9 to distribute as they choose (before racial bonus & ASI). I'm not sure if I want to add this level of complexity, but they can also multiclass up to level 2 in fighter or paladin, if they choose (does this favor the warlock too much? Sorcerers typically also multiclass into those, right?).

- The fight will take place INSIDE A VOLCANO with the tomb of a demi-lich suspended by chains in the middle. The chains are long enough to walk upon, they can go inside the tomb as well as on ledges outside. Please use the map for reference. If they make too much noise the demi-lich will awaken and destroy them all.
http://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/blog_header/b5/B5574N7RYBL41426279415991.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Vw237U4tYYM/USBa5wU4USI/AAAAAAAAEq4/WPLIwCoe-h4/s1600/Chromehound+Map.jpg
Ignore the red circle. That's someone else's highlight

Edit: thanks to CursedRhubarb, it has come to light that the demi-lich was a stolid hater of polymorph, sleep, and other hard CC effects which would allow someone to cheese the fight & throw them helplessly into the lava. If someone were to employ such a cowardly tactic, the glyphs surrounding his tomb would activate and cast 50 disintegrates & 50 finger of death spells at the transgressor, as well as a 9th level counterspell to nullify the effect

Hi again!
Much more complex setup but voids some boring tactics, so well worth it.

My only gripe is with the multiclass: I would either remove it entirely (preferred), or allow free multiclassing up to 2 levels.

Also, the map is undermining one usual winning tactic of a Warlock, Eldricht Spear (although it is obviously not a sure-win tactic since Sorcerer has many ways to hide or protect, ES is a nice kiting tactic).
Although, the limit on control spells is a nice counter-balance.

On this point, could you please precise what you mean by hard control? Should I understand "spells that don't allow saves past the initial"? Or better if you don't mind, edit to provide an extensive list?

My opinion on this versus would change much depending on what are allowed spells. ;)

Also...

Does the King have a way to verify the authenticity of the Artefact? If not, either one could potentially use illusory magic to fake it.

This. Or for a Sorcerer, presenting a well-imitated fake and use an Subtle Suggestion to convince him (a sentence such as "you are sure this sword is the real thing" should do the trick) (Heightened would be obviously better but you don't want to be caught trifling with the King's mind now do you? XD).
Although you could combine this with a Minor Illusion, I'd say using a "real fake" is better because there is a very fair chance either the Warlock will be also here, or at the very least the King will have some wizards that could see that you made an illusion.

[RickAllison]

Hi again!
Much more complex setup but voids some boring tactics, so well worth it.

My only gripe is with the multiclass: I would either remove it entirely (preferred), or allow free multiclassing up to 2 levels.

Also, the map is undermining one usual winning tactic of a Warlock, Eldricht Spear (although it is obviously not a sure-win tactic since Sorcerer has many ways to hide or protect, ES is a nice kiting tactic).
Although, the limit on control spells is a nice counter-balance.

On this point, could you please precise what you mean by hard control? Should I understand "spells that don't allow saves past the initial"? Or better if you don't mind, edit to provide an extensive list?

My opinion on this versus would change much depending on what are allowed spells. ;)

Also...

This. Or for a Sorcerer, presenting a well-imitated fake and use an Subtle Suggestion to convince him (a sentence such as "you are sure this sword is the real thing" should do the trick) (Heightened would be obviously better but you don't want to be caught trifling with the King's mind now do you? XD).
Although you could combine this with a Minor Illusion, I'd say using a "real fake" is better because there is a very fair chance either the Warlock will be also here, or at the very least the King will have some wizards that could see that you made an illusion.

Better yet, Subtle Suggestion the king! Suggestion has no text stating that the person is aware they are being charmed unlike Charm Person, and it also is about making the person think they want to do the suggestion. Without any magic words and the material component being satisfied by just touching it in your pocket, there is no evidence of your spell. Without metagaming, the only evidence would be if someone is using Detect Magic. Less useful if the warlock is in the castle, but the king could likely be persuaded to send out an army to hunt down the warlock due to damning "evidence" of dealing with devils.

The evidence may or may not be fabricated.

[Doug Lampert]

Better yet, Subtle Suggestion the king! Suggestion has no text stating that the person is aware they are being charmed unlike Charm Person, and it also is about making the person think they want to do the suggestion. Without any magic words and the material component being satisfied by just touching it in your pocket, there is no evidence of your spell. Without metagaming, the only evidence would be if someone is using Detect Magic. Less useful if the warlock is in the castle, but the king could likely be persuaded to send out an army to hunt down the warlock due to damning "evidence" of dealing with devils.

The evidence may or may not be fabricated.

The King is capable of warding an entire volcano against passage, including teleportation, for seven days and having the wards go down if (and only if) one of two people dies. He's presumably a super-epic character with divine rank 20 + the GMAvatar and MarySue special powers. I don't think anyone is going to fool or mess with him.

[tieren]

The King is capable of warding an entire volcano against passage, including teleportation, for seven days and having the wards go down if (and only if) one of two people dies. He's presumably a super-epic character with divine rank 20 + the GMAvatar and MarySue special powers. I don't think anyone is going to fool or mess with him.

My understanding is that the king is actually a small boy under the thrall of an ancient black dragon, its probably the dragon you need to worry about impressing (and I doubt you'd do it with an illusion).

[Citan]

Better yet, Subtle Suggestion the king!
Well, that's exactly and precisely what I suggested, so I'm not sure of what you are getting at. XD

[RickAllison]

Well, that's exactly and precisely what I suggested, so I'm not sure of what you are getting at. XD

It may have to do with being tired and not reading it :p

[Gignere]

I think the sorceror should win. If warlock wins initiative but does not surprise sorceror, sorceror can counter spell anything the warlock can throw at him. When sorcerer goes he can quicken fireball, followed by minor illusion of a stone and move into it to block LoS. Basically now the lock can only target sorcerer with AoE, even eldritch blast needs to target. If lock goes and tries to cast anything it gets counterspell again. Lock is out of spell, sorcerer can take the time and blast the lock to smithereens.

On the flip side if sorcerer wins initiative quicken fireball mean the lock just eats it, lock can't afford to Counterspell. If sorcerer had two levels of fighter he would just fireball twice if lock doesn't CS at least one he is probably dead.

[SillyPopeNachos]

Sorcerer wins

[Douche]

My understanding is that the king is actually a small boy under the thrall of an ancient black dragon, its probably the dragon you need to worry about impressing (and I doubt you'd do it with an illusion).

Is that a reference to Lady Prestor from WoW?
:smalltongue:

[tieren]

I think the sorceror should win. If warlock wins initiative but does not surprise sorceror, sorceror can counter spell anything the warlock can throw at him.



I thought about that. The warlock also has counterspell, so he can use his reaction to counterspell the sorcerer's counterspell and the lock's original spell still goes through.

Now with the darkness trick that doesn't work so well because the sorcerer can then dispell magic to get rid of the darkness.

At the levels we are talking about I don't really see a save or suck that would let the warlock win for sure on the first round, which means the match should go to the sorcerer.

[Douche]

I thought about that. The warlock also has counterspell, so he can use his reaction to counterspell the sorcerer's counterspell and the lock's original spell still goes through.

Now with the darkness trick that doesn't work so well because the sorcerer can the dispell magic to get rid of the darkness.

That idea has actually been dispelled hehehe

https://twitter.com/ChrisPerkinsDnD/status/562778783300984832?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

A third party can still counter a counterspell, but between 2 spellcasters you can't have that interaction.

Anyway, I think you guys are putting too much weight on counterspell. Its range is only 60 feet & requires sight. The warlock is likely either sitting in his darkness sphere, or is spell sniping from outside the 60 foot range.

In general, the warlock strength in this scenario would lie in spell sniper/eldritch spear so I think the main challenge for the sorcerer would be getting & staying in range of the warlock. Sorcerer only has 2 4th level spells to dimension door, he could concentrate on flying for an increased move speed (dangerous to lose over the firey chasm though).

Warlock could also focus on fear effects or something like Hunger of Hadar (or, better, Earthbind - speed reduced to 0 with no repeat save. Duration 1 minute, range 300 FEET LOLOLOL) to slow the sorcerer, widen the gap between them, and allow him to keep sniping.


Btw, I think ideally the Warlock would be a Tiefling to get free access to one Darkness (and the charisma boost obviously), & forcing the Sorcerer to dispel magic is already a victory for the Warlock. Either the Sorcerer dispels, or he has to use AoE spells but can't counterspell the incoming Earthbind, which will then seal his doom as he gets Eldritch Blast-ed for an entire minute from outside his range. And lets not forget about the Hex which will give him disadvantage on his Strength to avoid the Earthbind

[Socratov]

I thought about that. The warlock also has counterspell, so he can use his reaction to counterspell the sorcerer's counterspell and the lock's original spell still goes through.

Now with the darkness trick that doesn't work so well because the sorcerer can then dispell magic to get rid of the darkness.

At the levels we are talking about I don't really see a save or suck that would let the warlock win for sure on the first round, which means the match should go to the sorcerer.

Sure, but in that case the warlock is without reactions for the round and spellslots for the rest of the fight (unless the warlock countespells the counterspell counterspelling the cantrip), sure cantrips are still available, but the warlock is at least a sitting duck for one round, more then enough for the sorcerer to go ballistic with Heighten Spell (disadvantage on saves) with just about any save targeting spell the sorc has, and have a decent chance of landing it.

[RulesJD]

I thought about that. The warlock also has counterspell, so he can use his reaction to counterspell the sorcerer's counterspell and the lock's original spell still goes through.

Now with the darkness trick that doesn't work so well because the sorcerer can then dispell magic to get rid of the darkness.

At the levels we are talking about I don't really see a save or suck that would let the warlock win for sure on the first round, which means the match should go to the sorcerer.

Problem is that the Sorcerer can use Subtle spell metamagic to remove the Verbal and Somatic components of Counterspell, which means the Warlock doesn't "see" the Sorcerer casting Counterspell.

Thus, because "seeing" someone cast a spell is a requirement of Counterspell, the Warlock can't Counterspell the Sorcerers Counterspell.


Honestly I'm not really sure how the Warlock gets around this besides moving out of the 60ft range before casting or putting some full cover between it and the Sorcerer. If it can do that, then maybe get an AoE Hypnotic Patter on the Sorc?

[RulesJD]

That idea has actually been dispelled hehehe

https://twitter.com/ChrisPerkinsDnD/status/562778783300984832?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

A third party can still counter a counterspell, but between 2 spellcasters you can't have that interaction.

*snip*

Just FYI, Chris Perkins is wrong. Jeremy Crawford (the official rules guru) says you can, as do the rules because you can always use a Reaction on your turn.

https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium_1.0.pdf

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/03/12/sorcerer-subtle-spell-vs-counterspell/

[tieren]

erg..wrong level spell

barring flukes with he dice I am not really seeing a way for the warlock to be likely to win.

Can the lock banish himself to get through the barrier and then come back and murder the sorcerer and the king in their sleep?

[RickAllison]

Just FYI, Chris Perkins is wrong. Jeremy Crawford (the official rules guru) says you can, as do the rules because you can always use a Reaction on your turn.

https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium_1.0.pdf

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/03/12/sorcerer-subtle-spell-vs-counterspell/

Not to mention that Chris Perkins cannot give Sage Advice! People just mistakenly assume that because that stupid site sageadvice.eu (not official, by the way) lumps Crawford's tweets in with Mearls and Perkins. Only Crawford and the official article can be considered Sage Advice.

[Douche]

Just FYI, Chris Perkins is wrong. Jeremy Crawford (the official rules guru) says you can, as do the rules because you can always use a Reaction on your turn.

https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium_1.0.pdf

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/03/12/sorcerer-subtle-spell-vs-counterspell/

Ah, alright then.

Either way, that is a boon to the Warlock, which is the guy I was arguing for in the first place.

I still don't care too much about Counterspell. The Warlock doesn't need it, and the spells he's going to be using are outside of 60 feet anyway.

[Gignere]

Ah, alright then.

Either way, that is a boon to the Warlock, which is the guy I was arguing for in the first place.

I still don't care too much about Counterspell. The Warlock doesn't need it, and the spells he's going to be using are outside of 60 feet anyway.

You forget sorcerer can match the range of a lock because he can nab spell sniper and distant spell metamagic given the confines of the locale. The lock has no advantage against the sorcerer. The sorcerer has better burst and CC and at least enough range so lock can't cheese the eldritch spear + spell sniper.

In PvP burst >> sustained.

[tieren]

You forget sorcerer can match the range of a lock because he can nab spell sniper and distant spell metamagic given the confines of the locale. The lock has no advantage against the sorcerer. The sorcerer has better burst and CC and at least enough range so lock can't cheese the eldritch spear + spell sniper.

In PvP burst >> sustained.

Maybe if the characters were level 9 the lock could use levitate at will invocation to stay 600 feet above the sorcerer and plink away with EB's using eldritch spear and spell sniper.

[Zorku]

Rules don't say that they have to avoid casting non-hostile spells before the fight begins so the lock has darkness cast on their sock before the volcano lair is sealed and this counterspell issue was a wash.

Anyway, Warlock uses mask of many faces to look like the sorcerer several times throughout the week and casts friends on the king to try and pass off a ludicrously bad forged item and then subsequently several decent fakes until either the king is so furious that he orders the sorcerer killed before the fight ("Alright. I won't resist. When the preparations are made you can find me in my quarters.") or the king is clearly not going to do anything about repeated (ab)use of the friend's spell and they roll a natural 20 with a real enough forgery, and they drop the disguise on the spot to celebrate how they've beaten that awful sorcerer. ("What? Oh the disguise? I just thought of that this morning. The friends spell? I overheard the sorcerer talking about how you don't seem to react to it, and I didn't want to get in trouble if it turned out he was purposely trying to fool me into social suicide.")

Unfortunately friends takes concentration, otherwise the warlock could force whichever social outcome he wanted via hex. Well, if he's creative maybe he still can.

[Gignere]

Rules don't say that they have to avoid casting non-hostile spells before the fight begins so the lock has darkness cast on their sock before the volcano lair is sealed and this counterspell issue was a wash.

No it isn't because even with darkness up the sorcerer can still fireball you to smithereens. Fireball doesn't need a target. Good luck making the concentration check. After you cast darkness you have exactly one spell slot left. There is nothing the warlock can single cast that can kill or disable the sorcerer at that level particularly since polymorph is banned.

Even if he tries to use eldritch blast, it is only two blasts at level 8, the sorcerer can cast shield to easily get 21 AC this means on average less than one bolt will hit the sorcerer.

[Douche]

No it isn't because even with darkness up the sorcerer can still fireball you to smithereens. Fireball doesn't need a target. Good luck making the concentration check. After you cast darkness you have exactly one spell slot left. There is nothing the warlock can single cast that can kill or disable the sorcerer at that level particularly since polymorph is banned.

Even if he tries to use eldritch blast, it is only two blasts at level 8, the sorcerer can cast shield to easily get 21 AC this means on average less than one bolt will hit the sorcerer.

Unless the warlock actually drops his sock of darkness & misty steps away. Now as the sorcerer fireballs an empty space, the warlock is behind him & uses a repelling blast to knock him into lava. Pshh, nothin' personnel, kid

BTW everyone is ignoring the slumbering Demi-Lich. I feel like a fireball exploding is probably loud enough that it just means mutually assured destruction

[SharkForce]

i feel like a lot of pretty dubious assumptions are being made. spell sniper? plausible for a warlock. eldritch spear? really? that's... pretty damn specific. i mean, how often exactly do you find yourself at extreme range that you could even take advantage of that. and distant spell for the sorcerer... really? we're treating abilities that you choose at level up as if they were abilities that you choose daily. it makes tons of sense for a druid or cleric to have some weird spell prepared from their list with a day's notice. it makes *some* sense for a wizard to have a "sometimes" spell on their spell list. it makes no sense whatsoever to assume that a sorcerer or warlock is going to choose total niche spells that only fit in the specific scenario described.

(stuff for countering another caster, sure... but stuff that is only useful if you're expecting to fight in a huge arena is a bit dubious).

i've been really trying to think about this one, and honestly, i'm just not sure. i think this fight mostly goes to whoever gets the drop on the other. both have tools that can potentially help with that goal. both have weaknesses that the other can exploit. and either of them could potentially end the fight in a single action.

[Gignere]

Unless the warlock actually drops his sock of darkness & misty steps away. Now as the sorcerer fireballs an empty space, the warlock is behind him & uses a repelling blast to knock him into lava. Pshh, nothin' personnel, kid

BTW everyone is ignoring the slumbering Demi-Lich. I feel like a fireball exploding is probably loud enough that it just means mutually assured destruction

You know that in 5e that once you are not behind cover you are seen, so once you misty step away the sorcerer can see you. Why would he blast the area of darkness?

[Gignere]

i feel like a lot of pretty dubious assumptions are being made. spell sniper? plausible for a warlock. eldritch spear? really? that's... pretty damn specific. i mean, how often exactly do you find yourself at extreme range that you could even take advantage of that. and distant spell for the sorcerer... really? we're treating abilities that you choose at level up as if they were abilities that you choose daily. it makes tons of sense for a druid or cleric to have some weird spell prepared from their list with a day's notice. it makes *some* sense for a wizard to have a "sometimes" spell on their spell list. it makes no sense whatsoever to assume that a sorcerer or warlock is going to choose total niche spells that only fit in the specific scenario described.

(stuff for countering another caster, sure... but stuff that is only useful if you're expecting to fight in a huge arena is a bit dubious).

i've been really trying to think about this one, and honestly, i'm just not sure. i think this fight mostly goes to whoever gets the drop on the other. both have tools that can potentially help with that goal. both have weaknesses that the other can exploit. and either of them could potentially end the fight in a single action.

Explain how the warlock can end the fight in a single action I just don't see it. Sorcerer win because they have way more spell slots than the warlock not because the sorcerer can end it in a single action. The warlock has two spell slots and the sorcerer has counterspell, unless you want to argue that counterspell is not a normal everyday pick for a sorcerer.

[SharkForce]

Explain how the warlock can end the fight in a single action I just don't see it. Sorcerer win because they have way more spell slots than the warlock not because the sorcerer can end it in a single action. The warlock has two spell slots and the sorcerer has counterspell, unless you want to argue that counterspell is not a normal everyday pick for a sorcerer.

- because the warlock also has counterspell, so he can counterspell the counterspell.
-because the warlock can sit in darkness with devil's sight, and now the sorcerer can't see the warlock and thus cannot counterspell.
- because the warlock can shove the sorcerer off a bridge from more than the range of counterspell using eldritch blast (repelling blast is not hard CC)
- because the warlock can be invisible and get close to the sorcerer before the sorcerer can react.
- because the sorcerer has no particular counter to fear (at least, not without seeing the warlock, which he won't until after the spell is cast at which point invisibility or darkness stops) and you don't get a save against (edit: escaping) fear (edit: once you've failed the initial save) unless you get out of sight... and the only action available to you while feared is a dash. you aren't going to win this fight with a dash, so the warlock pretty much just follows you until you're cornered and then kills you. this *is* a hard CC effect (your actions are restricted), but it isn't being used to throw the sorcerer into the lava and thus does not trigger the glyphs.
- depending on patron, the warlock also has some pretty suitable spells for turning the tables (fireball, scorching ray, command for fiend, greater invisibility and phantasmal force for fey, tasha's, phantasmal force, evard's tentacles for GOO).

now, the sorcerer has pretty much most of those options too. the sorcerer can also go invisible, the sorcerer can also potentially have a few other spells that would help in similiar ways. but mostly they do the same thing in different ways.

so, it largely boils down most likely to who gets the jump on the other. both have the ability to get the jump on the other, and do something which the other is unlikely to survive. i would say that the sorcerer could potentially have more ways of screwing over the warlock than the other way around, but only one way of screwing the other over is needed, because neither particularly has the tools to survive for long once they've been screwed over.

now, just to be clear, i'm not saying "whoever wins initiative wins the fight". there's a bit more nuance to it than that; the warlock could be using unlimited-use silent images to trick the sorcerer into wasting spells. both could be proficient in stealth. either could be proficient in the use of some tool which would help them set up a trap. either could take a guess at what the other is going to try to do and plan accordingly (as per the setup, they have known each other for some time and clashed regularly... they probably have a pretty good idea of precisely what spells and abilities the other has). there are a number of ways in which they could maneuver to get the jump on each other. but both have the tools to do it, and whichever one pulls their plan off better is likely to win.

[Citan]

- because the warlock also has counterspell, so he can counterspell the counterspell.
-because the warlock can sit in darkness with devil's sight, and now the sorcerer can't see the warlock and thus cannot counterspell.
- because the warlock can shove the sorcerer off a bridge from more than the range of counterspell using eldritch blast (repelling blast is not hard CC)
- because the warlock can be invisible and get close to the sorcerer before the sorcerer can react.
- because the sorcerer has no particular counter to fear (at least, not without seeing the warlock, which he won't until after the spell is cast at which point invisibility or darkness stops) and you don't get a save against (edit: escaping) fear (edit: once you've failed the initial save) unless you get out of sight... and the only action available to you while feared is a dash. you aren't going to win this fight with a dash, so the warlock pretty much just follows you until you're cornered and then kills you. this *is* a hard CC effect (your actions are restricted), but it isn't being used to throw the sorcerer into the lava and thus does not trigger the glyphs.
- depending on patron, the warlock also has some pretty suitable spells for turning the tables (fireball, scorching ray, command for fiend, greater invisibility and phantasmal force for fey, tasha's, phantasmal force, evard's tentacles for GOO).

now, the sorcerer has pretty much most of those options too. the sorcerer can also go invisible, the sorcerer can also potentially have a few other spells that would help in similiar ways. but mostly they do the same thing in different ways.

so, it largely boils down most likely to who gets the jump on the other. both have the ability to get the jump on the other, and do something which the other is unlikely to survive. i would say that the sorcerer could potentially have more ways of screwing over the warlock than the other way around, but only one way of screwing the other over is needed, because neither particularly has the tools to survive for long once they've been screwed over.

now, just to be clear, i'm not saying "whoever wins initiative wins the fight". there's a bit more nuance to it than that; the warlock could be using unlimited-use silent images to trick the sorcerer into wasting spells. both could be proficient in stealth. either could be proficient in the use of some tool which would help them set up a trap. either could take a guess at what the other is going to try to do and plan accordingly (as per the setup, they have known each other for some time and clashed regularly... they probably have a pretty good idea of precisely what spells and abilities the other has). there are a number of ways in which they could maneuver to get the jump on each other. but both have the tools to do it, and whichever one pulls their plan off better is likely to win.
1. Darkness is 1mn. Sorcerer could just outwait.
2. It's a tactic but Sorcerer can limit the risk by sticking near the walls so that it's difficult or impossible for Warlock to repel it enough in a relevant direction.
3. Sorcerer has both Invisibility, only Fey Warlock has Greater. And some Sorcerer could Extend his to outlast the Warlock.
4. A Sorcerer can still act thanks to Quicken Metamagic (which is taken by most Sorcerers). It could cast spells to protect himself or cast a save or suck spell, depending.
5. Sorcerer has most of all those spells available, but he gets many more slots to try his chance. And Metamagic that can change things.

6. Sorcerer has many more ways to screw the Warlock around, if only because he is not forced to overcast a spell. And whichever Metamagic is chosen, it gives a significant advantage (obviously Heightened could be the best if all control were authorized).

Warlock has a decent to good chance to win if he goes first. Otherwise, the Sorcerer has much better odds overall (not even accounting for UA Origin features, because Shadow Sorcerer is OP), because of slots allowing him to both protect and try a few times. If a Warlock gets his shots and fails, it's over.

[Gignere]

Basically it boils down to this warlock has to play flawlessly because he/she only has two spells for the fight. Because one or two wrong spells and the lock is a sitting duck.

Sorcerer has a margin of error because he/she has a whole bunch of spell slots. First spell ineffective hey no problem, I can try a different one, etc. This doesn't even take into account of metamagic.

[SharkForce]

bonus actions are still actions. the only action you can take is a dash (edit: while feared). sorcerer cannot cast spells with quicken while under the effects of fear, because it still requires the cast a spell action, which is not a dash action.

invisibility drops when a spell is cast. the spell is not cast until it is cast, therefore, when the spell is being cast, you're still invisible, therefore you still get your initial spell off without being countered even with regular invisibility, and that is potentially enough to finish the fight (especially if it's a surprise round).

any plan that calls for sitting right next to a wall until time runs out and you both die is not a good plan. it gives the enemy the initiative (not in D&D sense, but in the more general sense of the word. although, considering the odds of getting surprised, maybe also the literal sense).

and so long as we're throwing out arbitrary scenarios, how do we know the warlock isn't using infinite-use silent image to take away the sorcerer's resource advantage? how do we know the warlock isn't manipulating the scenario so that there are many small fights that drain the sorcerer's long rest resources while the warlock can recharge on a short rest? you talk about the warlock needing to fight perfectly, but tell me, how does the fight look if the sorcerer botches the first attempt and the next attempt is the warlock after a short rest recharging spells facing the sorcerer with 2-3 of the highest level spells gone?

both face serious consequences if they fail to get the drop on the other. both have a solid chance of straight-up winning if they succeed to get the drop on the other. this fight can very easily go either way.

[Douche]

TBH I could imagine the warlock hiding out in the Demi-Liches tomb when he runs out of spells, to give himself a short rest. If the Sorcerer is dumb enough to pursue him, then in that range any spell is going to be loud enough to get them both killed. I can see a Warlock being that reckless in character... Sorcerer - maybe, maybe not.

[SharkForce]

TBH I could imagine the warlock hiding out in the Demi-Liches tomb when he runs out of spells, to give himself a short rest. If the Sorcerer is dumb enough to pursue him, then in that range any spell is going to be loud enough to get them both killed. I can see a Warlock being that reckless in character... Sorcerer - maybe, maybe not.

ritual caster (or tome lock, of course) would be enough to give meld into stone. get some distance and hide before you use it, and odds are the sorcerer will never find you.

it could also be done with the invocation that lets you stay invisible as long as you don't move, i suppose, though that's a bit less reliable i would think. and also it costs a precious invocation that nobody would take under normal circumstances.

[Asmotherion]

Now, this one is interesting. I'd play it safe, suggesting the smartest player wins this. It's also important to have a look at RAW vs RAI (or at least, potential RAI, as I am unsure if those are confirmed) diferance on this.

Let's have an overlook at what we basically have here:

Sorcerer: A caster with the ability to, not only twist spells with metamagic, but also cast more spells than normal. He can chose to favor more consistant casting, thus creating more spell slots via flexible casting, or on the contrary, burn out his spell points and spell slots to quicken his spells, thus casting more of them in a single round. His main advantage is his good defance against spellcasters, namelly Counterspell, Dispell Magic and Globe of Invulnerability and the first 2 more times per long rest than any other spellcaster (if he dedicates himself to it).

Warlock: A caster with very limited spellcasting, but at higher potential. His only 4 spell slots are however compremised by amazing at-will and consistant abilities, such as Eldritch Blast cantrip (arguably the best cantrip in the game), Hex (dammage booster that only needs to be activated once), and some invocations that can make him very competant.


If we dump this up to a simple spellcasting fight, the sorcerer has the clear advantage, as he is able to counterspell his oponent long enough (and as a reaction, thus not denying him the ability to cast offensive spells in the process) to eventually cause him enough damage to perish. A quick calculation shows us that, a sorcerer using only cantrips to attck, metamagic to quicken spell, and his spellslots of level 3 and above to counterspell his opponent, he can:
A) Keep counterspelling for 15 rounds
B) Quicken Spell for 10 rounds
C) Deal an average of 44 damage per turn (if both cantrips hit) or 22 (if only one cantrip hits). An estimation of 3-7 rounds should be enough to down a warlock of average, rounded up HP with this dammage output.

However, there are more factors than meets the eye. First of all, by RAW, the spell "Globe of Invulnerability" suggests that it would also block cantrips. That means that the sorcerer needs not spend spell slots on constant counterspelling, aka the most obvious advantage a warlock would have is entirelly countered (that being that he can spam his abilities to force the sorcerer to use up his spell slots counterspelling him). However, one RAI interpretation of this is that the spell does not include cantrips, and I'm going to work with this asumption for now (witch might be entirelly wrong, but we have to give the Warlock a fighting chance, don't we?)

That said, Warlock still has one more strategic option (except he can use it only 4 times in his battle) to counter-counterspell the Sorcerer; Namely: Hellish Rebuke. It is a reaction, witch he can use during the sorcerer's turn. If I understand RAW correctly, a reaction spell can only be used as a reaction, thus not during the Sorcerer's turn (if not however, the bet is still Sorcerer). It deals 6d10 (thus averages 33), and using it 4 times, causes 112 damage. Not enough to kill a Sorcerer, but enough to seriously wound him. Bluffing with it, one may make the sorcerer think twice before counterspelling eldritch blast, as he could be target of much more dammage. It still does not work with a Globe of Invulnerability however.

Then, there is the Mystic Arcanum. As a level 8 Mystic Arcanum, the warlock idealy has picked Feeblemind. If he can bluff (With casting Hellish rebuke to taunt the sorcerer to counter-spell it) well enough to actually cast it (and the Sorcerer has not used his 9th level spell slot on Globe of Invulnerability... witch if I was the Sorcerer, I would have done to be honest), he still has a chance to win this... as a Sorcerer without spells is like a fighter without weapons, armor and only partial use of his limbs.

In all honesty, eventhough I am a Warlock fanatic, (with Sorcerer and Wizard being both ranked second favorite however), the Sorcerer wins this matchup, as he is just more Spellcasting Duel Oriented than the Warlock. Also, with his ability to fly (witch 2/3 sorcerer archetypes grand) he can safely stay away to melee.

[Douche]

That was a great summary but they're level 8, bro

[tieren]

I was thinking more about this and am wondering if trying to sling spells is really the locks best bet, maybe a blade lock getting in there and going melee on him is the way to go.

Not that this is typical, but I am playing a forest gnome warlock of the archfey patron. I get adv on Int Wis and Cha saves against magic, which would help against most of the save or sucks. if we went pact of the chain and used the variant rule to let the lock get magic resistance from the imp or quasit familiar who could also then relay invisible scouting info back to the warlock to set up ambushes or something, you could end up with a character that is fairly tough to hurt with magic and could have decent AC with dex and the mage armor invocation.

If you happen to be building him for anti-magic shtick and took the mage slayer feat, you would get extra OA every time the sorcerer tried to cast in melee, and the sorcerer would have a harder time keeping concentration.

Also the fey presence ability doesn't count as a spell and can't be counterspelled so you have a shot at getting a fear or charm on the sorcerer.

Ambush, grapple, and then stab with dagger until dead.

[Gignere]

As for the lock hiding for a short rest. Short rest is an hour. If the sorcerer just spends twenty times the amount of time to search for the lock that is almost an auto success, that only takes 120 seconds or 20 rounds or 2 minutes. This is not a viable strategy.

You cannot say the warlock will spam silent image to burn the sorcerers resources. Tell me exactly what you are using silent image for. Chances are why would I burn resources if a monster has no sound? Remember silent images are silent.

The silent image will have to cover the warlock or else why wouldn't I just nuke the bejesus out of the warlock. Like I said I just don't see how with only two spell slots the warlock has the upper hand. If you say warlock goes invisible but sorcerer can go invisible too. Not just invisible but greater invisibility to boot.

[Gignere]

I was thinking more about this and am wondering if trying to sling spells is really the locks best bet, maybe a blade lock getting in there and going melee on him is the way to go.

Not that this is typical, but I am playing a forest gnome warlock of the archfey patron. I get adv on Int Wis and Cha saves against magic, which would help against most of the save or sucks. if we went pact of the chain and used the variant rule to let the lock get magic resistance from the imp or quasit familiar who could also then relay invisible scouting info back to the warlock to set up ambushes or something, you could end up with a character that is fairly tough to hurt with magic and could have decent AC with dex and the mage armor invocation.

If you happen to be building him for anti-magic shtick and took the mage slayer feat, you would get extra OA every time the sorcerer tried to cast in melee, and the sorcerer would have a harder time keeping concentration.

Also the fey presence ability doesn't count as a spell and can't be counterspelled so you have a shot at getting a fear or charm on the sorcerer.

Ambush, grapple, and then stab with dagger until dead.

As for a blade lock with Mage slayer and grappling this will just be a DPR race. Quicken fireball + firebolt vs AC of 16 compare to three melee attacks against AC of 21 per round. My money is still on the sorcerer.

[Zorku]

we're treating abilities that you choose at level up as if they were abilities that you choose daily. No, we're min maxing.

The hypothetical players get to start at level 8 so they can build however they want. Typical warlocks? Yeah, they don't have the right skills to stand up to this scenario. The class as a whole? Maybe.


Basically it boils down to this warlock has to play flawlessly because he/she only has two spells for the fight. Because one or two wrong spells and the lock is a sitting duck.

Sorcerer has a margin of error because he/she has a whole bunch of spell slots. First spell ineffective hey no problem, I can try a different one, etc. This doesn't even take into account of metamagic.
Warlock spell slots aren't for damage though. You can generally pull off slightly more damage by using them that way, but that's a trap option. You eldritch blast to deal damage, and that's unfortunately badly screwed by the sorc's ability to cast shield a bunch of times.

In the combat the lock's better off having already told the sorcerer that this situation is unjust and as protest they are going to be invisible when they enter the encounter and then cast shatter to wake the lich and get them both killed unless he has a good reason not to.

If for some reason the sorc doesn't know shield and counterspell (why???) then maybe this can be a fight. (Or the DM rules that the sorc doesn't have any sufficiently quiet way to deal with the lock sitting in darkness, in which case the sorc should do this table flip social interaction beforehand instead.)

Meanwhile the warlock took One with Shadows so he lets the sorcerer wait for invisibility to time out but the lock is already hidden somewhere and invisible indefinitely, especially down on one of the rocks near that little ledge that you try to aim opposite of when you mind control idle alliance players into the lava.

[tieren]

As for a blade lock with Mage slayer and grappling this will just be a DPR race. Quicken fireball + firebolt vs AC of 16 compare to three melee attacks against AC of 21 per round. My money is still on the sorcerer.

Well magic resistance from the familiar can mitigate that and if he is casting heightened fireball in melee range 1. mage slayer gets an OA 2: sorcerer eats the same damage.

[Gignere]

Well magic resistance from the familiar can mitigate that and if he is casting heightened fireball in melee range 1. mage slayer gets an OA 2: sorcerer eats the same damage.

Magic resistance means you are not a blade lock. Magic resistance isn't even raw. Because the familiars in the MM are not the familiar that the warlock gets.

[SharkForce]

As for the lock hiding for a short rest. Short rest is an hour. If the sorcerer just spends twenty times the amount of time to search for the lock that is almost an auto success, that only takes 120 seconds or 20 rounds or 2 minutes. This is not a viable strategy.

You cannot say the warlock will spam silent image to burn the sorcerers resources. Tell me exactly what you are using silent image for. Chances are why would I burn resources if a monster has no sound? Remember silent images are silent.

The silent image will have to cover the warlock or else why wouldn't I just nuke the bejesus out of the warlock. Like I said I just don't see how with only two spell slots the warlock has the upper hand. If you say warlock goes invisible but sorcerer can go invisible too. Not just invisible but greater invisibility to boot.

- ok, so the sorcerer searches a small area 20 times. take a look at the arena. it isn't tiny. the sorcerer has to search the *correct* spot repeatedly. you're not going to search the entire arena in any meaningful way 20 times in an hour. meanwhile, if the sorcerer leaves the wall to search anywhere not right next to the wall, we're right back to potential for knocking the sorcerer off the ledges. furthermore, i already noted a ritual spell that explicitly says it leaves no visible traces of where the person is hiding. the sorcerer can search all he wants if the warlock goes that route.

- how about a sneaking (very quiet) warlock? alternately, the warlock is perfectly capable of supplementing it with minor illusion to produce sound, if so desired. other options might include a trap (if the sorcerer spots it, might use a mobility spell to get past) or other very quiet hazards (you aren't necessarily going to hear a cloud of poisonous gas). or a glyph that looks like a glyph of warding. or a floor over the hole that the warlock dug out in the walkway (this is unlikely to kill, presuming the sorcerer has some method of flight or teleportation).

- go greater invisible all you want. the warlock can wait until the spell runs out (both might reasonably have good stealth, but neither is likely to have exceptional perception, particularly when trying to find an invisible person in what likely counts as an obscured area, trying to find a person who is probably not standing very close by (the warlock can even afford to dimension door away - after all, he's expecting his level 4 spell slot to come back). now the sorcerer is down a level 4 spell slot, and the warlock walks away, short rests, and has both spell slots back.

again, none of these are guaranteed successes (but then, neither are the sorcerer's options). either character has the potential to win. it mostly comes down to who pulls off their plan better (or alternately, who does a better job of predicting the other character's plan). if you ran this 1,000 times it probably wouldn't come out to 500 wins each... but it also probably wouldn't be that far off, provided both are being run by equally capable players who understand what their characters can do well.

i think at higher levels, the sorcerer probably will actually have a bit more of a decisive advantage, though still not a landslide victory. but at level 8, it's a pretty even match.

[Specter]

This is still a thing? Really?

You realize that a Sorcerer at level 8 can cast Counterspell can cast Counterspell 8 times, right? And that the Warlock can do it twice? And that the Sorcerer can cast 8 spells Subtly so that they can't be counterspelled? And there's still a debate?

[SharkForce]

This is still a thing? Really?

You realize that a Sorcerer at level 8 can cast Counterspell can cast Counterspell 8 times, right? And that the Warlock can do it twice? And that the Sorcerer can cast 8 spells Subtly so that they can't be counterspelled? And there's still a debate?

at level 8, a sorcerer can cast counterspell precisely 2 times to reliably counter the warlock's spells (IF no other 4th level spells have been used), and an additional 3 times to *maybe* counter the warlock's spels, and 3 more to *maybe* counter the warlock's spells... AFTER 9 rounds of converting spells (takes a bonus action to generate SP, and a bonus action to create a slot)...

and all that ONLY if they want to have absolutely zero useful resources for offense. meaning that no, you can't do all that and cast 8 spells subtly, you can do that and cast 3 cantrips subtly and then you're out.

and again, this presumes that counterspell is even available at all. stealth, invisibility, darkness, and any source of total concealment is just as good at preventing a counterspell as subtle spell.

furthermore, this all seems to hinge on the assumption that both are just standing there throwing spells at each other like idiots. yes, if the warlock walks up to the sorcerer in full vision and wants to play spellcaster roshambo, the warlock is going to lose. if the warlock manages to play to his own advantages by forcing multiple encounters separated by short rests, the warlock could win it too.

[tieren]

Magic resistance means you are not a blade lock. Magic resistance isn't even raw. Because the familiars in the MM are not the familiar that the warlock gets.

Thats fair enough, take the resistance to magic out. If the lock gets the jump on the sorcerer (which the invisible scout may allow) and then lands a grapple, the sorcerer is not going to profit from dropping big aoe's on himself.

Plus the lock can counterspell the sorcerer's spells. The sorcerer can counterspell the counterspells but is he going to use 4th level slots to do so (all the locks spells are 4th level slots)? if not the sorcerer's counterspell could fail.

[Specter]

at level 8, a sorcerer can cast counterspell precisely 2 times to reliably counter the warlock's spells (IF no other 4th level spells have been used), and an additional 3 times to *maybe* counter the warlock's spels, and 3 more to *maybe* counter the warlock's spells... AFTER 9 rounds of converting spells (takes a bonus action to generate SP, and a bonus action to create a slot)...

and all that ONLY if they want to have absolutely zero useful resources for offense. meaning that no, you can't do all that and cast 8 spells subtly, you can do that and cast 3 cantrips subtly and then you're out.

and again, this presumes that counterspell is even available at all. stealth, invisibility, darkness, and any source of total concealment is just as good at preventing a counterspell as subtle spell.

furthermore, this all seems to hinge on the assumption that both are just standing there throwing spells at each other like idiots. yes, if the warlock walks up to the sorcerer in full vision and wants to play spellcaster roshambo, the warlock is going to lose. if the warlock manages to play to his own advantages by forcing multiple encounters separated by short rests, the warlock could win it too.

The warlock has two spell slots considered as of 4th-level casting. The Sorcerer will use his own two level-4 slots to counter them. After that, Warlock will try to Eldritch Blast every turn and get countered repeatedly. Counterspelling cantrips doesn't require a check.

Yeah, better have some extremely good stealth rolls.

[RickAllison]

Thats fair enough, take the resistance to magic out. If the lock gets the jump on the sorcerer (which the invisible scout may allow) and then lands a grapple, the sorcerer is not going to profit from dropping big aoe's on himself.

Plus the lock can counterspell the sorcerer's spells. The sorcerer can counterspell the counterspells but is he going to use 4th level slots to do so (all the locks spells are 4th level slots)? if not the sorcerer's counterspell could fail.

No, the warlock can't. Sorcerer can Subtle cast (one of the best metamagics) so the warlock can't do anything even when the sorcerer is in plain sight.

[Douche]

This is still a thing? Really?

You realize that a Sorcerer at level 8 can cast Counterspell can cast Counterspell 8 times, right? And that the Warlock can do it twice? And that the Sorcerer can cast 8 spells Subtly so that they can't be counterspelled? And there's still a debate?

Counterspell has a 60 foot range.

Taking spell sniper & eldritch spear is a common enough tactic... Maybe not practical enough that you'd use it in a game, because your DM only has a 50x50 battlemat & you don't have enough roleplaying opportunities for sniping that you'd invest both a feat & an invocation (maybe one or the other, but not both). However, if two people were conceivably building for a PvP match & knew this would be the arena, I don't see why the Warlock wouldn't do so.

Someone else said that a sorcerer could take spell sniper & use distant spell himself. But, not armed with the knowledge that the Warlock is going to be building that way, would he? I've been coming to this board for a year. I've seen dozens of topics mentioning the Eldritch spear/Spell sniper combo. Although it isn't as flashy or hilarious, it's probably as ubiquitous as Wish/Simulacrum on this board. But have I seen a single topic of people talking about getting outrageous range on a Sorcerer? Not even one. I've not seen a single recommendation that any Sorcerer take Spell sniper, in a year.

Point being, can a Sorcerer match the range of a Warlock? It's possible... but would a Sorcerer, believably, make those investments? Probably not. He would realistically take Elemental Adept, if anything.

It's possible, but I don't think many would have that kind of foresight. So I don't take the argument of "I'm going to do the same exact thing you're doing, without knowing you were gonna do it" as a counter to the Sniper Warlock. Regardless, using subtle spell, distant spell, quicken spell.... This mofo is gonna run out of metamagic in 2-3 turns. I just don't see it.

I'm just not convinced that the Sorcerer will ever be in a position to touch the Warlock at all

[tieren]

No, the warlock can't. Sorcerer can Subtle cast (one of the best metamagics) so the warlock can't do anything even when the sorcerer is in plain sight.

The example was a heightened fireball. The sorcerer can't cast a subtle heightened fireball, and if he did in melee range it would hurt him too.

[tieren]

The warlock has two spell slots considered as of 4th-level casting. The Sorcerer will use his own two level-4 slots to counter them. After that, Warlock will try to Eldritch Blast every turn and get countered repeatedly. Counterspelling cantrips doesn't require a check.

Yeah, better have some extremely good stealth rolls.

Will he though? Would you give up your two most powerful spell slots and the ability to cast any 4th level spell to counter the warlocks counterspells so your lower level spell could go through?

That almost seems like a valid use of the warlock's slots.

[Gignere]

The example was a heightened fireball. The sorcerer can't cast a subtle heightened fireball, and if he did in melee range it would hurt him too.

No it won't he can cast it behind the warlock and avoid the AOE on himself but totally nails the warlock. No one is dumb enough to fireball right at the lock's feet.

[SharkForce]

The warlock has two spell slots considered as of 4th-level casting. The Sorcerer will use his own two level-4 slots to counter them. After that, Warlock will try to Eldritch Blast every turn and get countered repeatedly. Counterspelling cantrips doesn't require a check.

Yeah, better have some extremely good stealth rolls.

again, this idiotic assumption that the warlock is going to willingly play spellcaster roshambo at 60 feet. if the sorcerer cannot find a way to force the warlock to stay within range and in sight while the sorcerer spams counterspell on everything, this simply doesn't happen. how do you even know the warlock is using 4th level spells so that you should use your highest level spells to counter them? what if the sorcerer opens with eldritch blast instead, and uses the first level 4 spell slot to counter your first attack, and the second level 4 spell slot to move away beyond 60 foot range and dimension door to a place where he can hide, rest, and recover spells?

[Gignere]

Counterspell has a 60 foot range.

Taking spell sniper & eldritch spear is a common enough tactic... Maybe not practical enough that you'd use it in a game, because your DM only has a 50x50 battlemat & you don't have enough roleplaying opportunities for sniping that you'd invest both a feat & an invocation (maybe one or the other, but not both). However, if two people were conceivably building for a PvP match & knew this would be the arena, I don't see why the Warlock wouldn't do so.

Someone else said that a sorcerer could take spell sniper & use distant spell himself. But, not armed with the knowledge that the Warlock is going to be building that way, would he? I've been coming to this board for a year. I've seen dozens of topics mentioning the Eldritch spear/Spell sniper combo. Although it isn't as flashy or hilarious, it's probably as ubiquitous as Wish/Simulacrum on this board. But have I seen a single topic of people talking about getting outrageous range on a Sorcerer? Not even one. I've not seen a single recommendation that any Sorcerer take Spell sniper, in a year.

Point being, can a Sorcerer match the range of a Warlock? It's possible... but would a Sorcerer, believably, make those investments? Probably not. He would realistically take Elemental Adept, if anything.

It's possible, but I don't think many would have that kind of foresight. So I don't take the argument of "I'm going to do the same exact thing you're doing, without knowing you were gonna do it" as a counter to the Sniper Warlock. Regardless, using subtle spell, distant spell, quicken spell.... This mofo is gonna run out of metamagic in 2-3 turns. I just don't see it.

I'm just not convinced that the Sorcerer will ever be in a position to touch the Warlock at all

Yes if the warlock knows he will PvP a sorcerer and the sorcerer doesn't know he will PvP a warlock the warlock can win. However if the warlock is building to fight a sorcerer, why wouldn't a sorcerer be built to counter the one trick the warlock can exploit. Which is eldritch spear + spell sniper. Spell sniper is a fantastic feat for a sorcerer so that isn't much of a stretch for the sorcerer to pick it up. Hell he can even use it to nab eldritch blast and with distant meta magic match the lock's distance. Lock has to hit AC 21, sorcerer only need to nail AC 16 max and that assumes lock picks the Mage armor invocation, if not it will be AC 15.

[Douche]

Yes if the warlock knows he will PvP a sorcerer and the sorcerer doesn't know he will PvP a warlock the warlock can win. However if the warlock is building to fight a sorcerer, why wouldn't a sorcerer be built to counter the one trick the warlock can exploit. Which is eldritch spear + spell sniper. Spell sniper is a fantastic feat for a sorcerer so that isn't much of a stretch for the sorcerer to pick it up. Hell he can even use it to nab eldritch blast and with distant meta magic match the lock's distance. Lock has to hit AC 21, sorcerer only need to nail AC 16 max and that assumes lock picks the Mage armor invocation, if not it will be AC 15.

Again, that requires metamagic. & the list of stuff you guys keep rattling off is ever increasing, just to counter 1 cantrip. How long do you really imagine you can sustain that?

[RickAllison]

It should be kept in mind that, at least in the first thread, the builds were supposed to be everyday builds and explicitly not custom-made for PvP. A warlock build to kill a specific character is a very different question than a general question of can warlocks win against the sorcerer. If a class has to build specifically to beat another, the class has already lost.

[Gignere]

Again, that requires metamagic. & the list of stuff you guys keep rattling off is ever increasing, just to counter 1 cantrip. How long do you really imagine you can sustain that?

No 1 metamagic and 1 feat is all it takes to deny the exploit. The feat is a feat that is fantastic for a sorcerer. The sorcerer doesn't require anything else to win. Once that exploit is covered the sorcerer can win without even picking a second feat or even a second meta magic.

Warlocks are the one that are saying magic resistance, Mage slayer, spell sniper, eldritch spear, bladelock, chainlock, with Mage armor invocation, silent image invocation, devil's sight, darkness on a sock, stealthing, hiding to short rest, one with shadows invocation.

[SharkForce]

It should be kept in mind that, at least in the first thread, the builds were supposed to be everyday builds and explicitly not custom-made for PvP. A warlock build to kill a specific character is a very different question than a general question of can warlocks win against the sorcerer. If a class has to build specifically to beat another, the class has already lost.

this one is a touch different. the setup is that the two have been at each other's throats for some time, as i read it. that said, they only know they're going to be in this specific arena as of yesterday, so while it's reasonable to be built to fight the other character within reason, it isn't reasonable to be built specifically to fight the other character in a demilich tomb that is dimensionally sealed and hanging over an active volcano complete with traps that are specifically set in place to punish certain actions.

so both of them having counterspell is pretty reasonable, they've been fighting for some unspecified period of time. having distant spell or eldritch spear just because the fight is in a giant open area where closing distance could be difficult... that's a bit less plausible. (spell sniper on a warlock i consider quite probable, as a lot of their power revolves around something that makes use of spell sniper. on a sorcerer, i would say it only makes sense on a specifically blasting-oriented sorcerer, because firebolt is but a small portion of what a sorcerer does).

[Gignere]

this one is a touch different. the setup is that the two have been at each other's throats for some time, as i read it. that said, they only know they're going to be in this specific arena as of yesterday, so while it's reasonable to be built to fight the other character within reason, it isn't reasonable to be built specifically to fight the other character in a demilich tomb that is dimensionally sealed and hanging over an active volcano complete with traps that are specifically set in place to punish certain actions.

so both of them having counterspell is pretty reasonable, they've been fighting for some unspecified period of time. having distant spell or eldritch spear just because the fight is in a giant open area where closing distance could be difficult... that's a bit less plausible. (spell sniper on a warlock i consider quite probable, as a lot of their power revolves around something that makes use of spell sniper. on a sorcerer, i would say it only makes sense on a specifically blasting-oriented sorcerer, because firebolt is but a small portion of what a sorcerer does).

Hello scorching ray + spell sniper, it doubles range for all attack spells. In fact if you look in the sorcerer guides it is a top pick for a sorcerer and even my player in my game who is a sorcerer took spell sniper as his first feat because I enforce cover rules.

[MaxWilson]

The King is capable of warding an entire volcano against passage, including teleportation, for seven days and having the wards go down if (and only if) one of two people dies. He's presumably a super-epic character with divine rank 20 + the GMAvatar and MarySue special powers. I don't think anyone is going to fool or mess with him.

Even Lord British can be killed occasionally... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_British#Assassination_of_Lord_British

[MaxWilson]

again, this idiotic assumption that the warlock is going to willingly play spellcaster roshambo at 60 feet. if the sorcerer cannot find a way to force the warlock to stay within range and in sight while the sorcerer spams counterspell on everything, this simply doesn't happen. how do you even know the warlock is using 4th level spells so that you should use your highest level spells to counter them? what if the sorcerer opens with eldritch blast instead, and uses the first level 4 spell slot to counter your first attack, and the second level 4 spell slot to move away beyond 60 foot range and dimension door to a place where he can hide, rest, and recover spells?

Hey. Did we just find a use for the One With Shadows invocation? To allow you to short rest somewhat safely inside a volcano while a sorcerer hunts for you?

Also, Meld Into Stone (druid ritual via Tomelock invocation) seems like it could be useful.

[Gignere]

Hey. Did we just find a use for the One With Shadows invocation? To allow you to short rest somewhat safely inside a volcano while a sorcerer hunts for you?

Also, Meld Into Stone (druid ritual via Tomelock invocation) seems like it could be useful.

One with shadows doesn't auto hide, you still need to take the hide action which breaks one with shadow. It is a garbage invocation.

[SharkForce]

One with shadows doesn't auto hide, you still need to take the hide action which breaks one with shadow. It is a garbage invocation.

nah, you do it in reverse order and it should stay. once someone walks around the corner and would normally be able to see you because you lost your concealment, you'll still be invisible.

it's still a garbage invocation, but in this specific case, it should work (unless your DM rules that an invocation with no verbal or somatic components and intended to help you hide requires you to come out of hiding to use it).

edit: scorching ray is a very nice spell at level 3. at level 5, it loses a lot of shine. at level 7, a little more. each level, it gets less and less impressive. it's not a bad spell. it is, in fact, reasonably good. what it is not, is a good idea to build your sorcerer around (though it gets a lot closer if your DM gives you draconic damage on every ray instead of the official ruling). picking it as a spell known, which can be easily changed later, is a perfectly sound idea. picking up feats and metamagic to work with this one spell? please don't. sorcerers have one good ability, and it should not be thrown away on boosting one spell that will struggle to retain relevance after a few levels.

if sorcerer guides are recommending it as one of the top feats, i suspect it says a lot more about how few decent feats there are for sorcerers in particular than anything else (most casters want resilient con. sorcerers, of course, don't need it). well, that and what people think sorcerer is good for. on top of that, i bet most of them recommend it... for sorcerers with a 2 level warlock dip.

[JellyPooga]

One with shadows doesn't auto hide, you still need to take the hide action which breaks one with shadow. It is a garbage invocation.

You've got it backwards; you hide, then use One With Shadows to become invisible. Admitedly not applicable in this scenario due to lack of cover, but more generally One With Shadows is a useful escape tool.

[RickAllison]

One with shadows doesn't auto hide, you still need to take the hide action which breaks one with shadow. It is a garbage invocation.

For combat, but it is wonderful when used by a stealthy person for utility. Remember that it has no time limit, doesn't actually cast a spell and has no text that suggests it makes a sound so it is silent, and is unlimited use. Sure you can't use it to break combat by instantly disappearing from the field while automatically negating any abilities requiring sight, but that makes perfect sense because that would be an insanely powerful ability! Instead, we have a quirky invocation that allows one to continually evade detection without re-Hiding so long as one isn't seen in the middle of movement and can access another area of mild shadows. Not so useful for crossing a constantly-observed courtyard, but perfect for evading patrols.

Not being useful in combat doesn't mean it is a garbage invocation. If you would like to make that argument, better lump in Beast Speech, Beguiling Influence, Book of Ancient Secrets, Eyes of the Rune Keeper, Gaze of Two Minds, Mask of Many Faces, Master of Myriad Forms (unless it is a water-centric area or you are relying on the natural weapons), Visions of Distant Realms, Whispers of the Grave, and Voice of the Chain Master. Some are better than others, but all are united by the fact that they just aren't combat-centric.

[SharkForce]

You've got it backwards; you hide, then use One With Shadows to become invisible. Admitedly not applicable in this scenario due to lack of cover, but more generally One With Shadows is a useful escape tool.

lack of cover, sure. lack of concealment? doubtful. the whole place is probably poorly lit at best (especially above the walkways, where the lava glow will be casting shadows. plus you're in a semi-active volcano, there are probably fumes all over the place.

[Osrogue]

Can a warlock do anything to a sorcerer under greater invisibility subtly casting spells that don't give away his location?

[SharkForce]

Can a warlock do anything to a sorcerer under greater invisibility subtly casting spells that don't give away his location?

hide and wait. greater invisibility is not a spell known for having a long duration :)

[Citan]

bonus actions are still actions. the only action you can take is a dash (edit: while feared). sorcerer cannot cast spells with quicken while under the effects of fear, because it still requires the cast a spell action, which is not a dash action.

I understand the reasoning but it is wrong.

Fact 1. In usual situations, the Quicken metamagic allows a Sorcerer to use a bonus action to cast a spell that would usually require an action. So he can Dash and cast an "action spell". Which he shouldn't be able to do should we follow your reasoning.

Fact 2. Fear does not forbid the Sorcerer to cast a spell at all.
Confer Fear text: "While frightened by this spell, a creature must take the Dash action and move away from you by the safest available route on each of its turns, unless there is nowhere to move."
So it just tells how the Sorcerer must use his action. It does not forbid him at all to cast spells or use any other (bonus) action. So Sorcerer can cast spells with quicken. Exactly the same way that a Fighter using Action Surge (or somone under the effect of Haste, except for the cast a spell example) could use his additional action to do something else than Dash: although obviously not Attack, he could Dodge / Disengage / Hide / cast a spell (if EK) / use an object. Or a Rogue could use the Hide action as a bonus action because of his Cunning Action feature.
It would be different if it was worded like in another spell (don't remember which one for save and suck spell, but there is always the Haste exemple) which explicitely states that you can only use your action to do a specific thing.
So your reasoning is wrong. Bonus action are totally separate from actions, with the big difference being only that what you can do with a bonus action differ vastly from one character to another. Otherwise said, it's a set of abilities that is totally independant from the set of features available in an action, even if in reality some of the abilities are "shared" (Dash/Hide/Disengage/etc) between the two set.

So, yes, Sorcerer can still cast a spell while frightened. He just can't cast any attack spells at Warlock because of the condition.

[Vogonjeltz]

Again, that requires metamagic. & the list of stuff you guys keep rattling off is ever increasing, just to counter 1 cantrip. How long do you really imagine you can sustain that?

Why would the sorcerer care about a cantrip?

Warlock has, at best, 2 spells in their pocket. If they burn one on Darkness that leaves 1 spell to maybe counterspell.

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, if the Sorcerer is too far off to counterspell the 2 spells the Warlock tries, the Sorcerer can't be interfered with either.

Round 1, assuming characters are out of counterspell range (or can be with their movement speed) Sorcerer throws up Extended Greater Invisibility.

For the next 2 minutes Sorcerer can't be targeted by any spell that applies to a target the caster can see, for example, Counterspell.

Round 2, if Darkness is up, Sorcerer (who is invisible) casts Dispel Magic. This can not be counterspelled because, as noted, invisible.

On round 3, repeat unless the Warlock has burned all his pact spells, with only Cantrips remaining. Proceed to murder the Warlock.

If the Sorcerer wants to be a true terror, they can hide and then use subtle spell on further castings to make them totally untargetable and impossible to fight.

If the Sorcerer wants to stick around and fight instead of just leaving, with Lightning Bolt/Fireball and Ice Storm available, the Sorcerer should be able to kill the Warlock using AoE (i.e. forcing the Warlock to make saves they aren't proficient in or die). This might be overkill, but it's also something the Warlock can't counteract because they have such limited spell slots with Pact Magic.

[Zorku]

Why would the sorcerer care about a cantrip?

Warlock has, at best, 2 spells in their pocket. If they burn one on Darkness that leaves 1 spell to maybe counterspell.

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, if the Sorcerer is too far off to counterspell the 2 spells the Warlock tries, the Sorcerer can't be interfered with either.

Round 1, assuming characters are out of counterspell range (or can be with their movement speed) Sorcerer throws up Extended Greater Invisibility.

For the next 2 minutes Sorcerer can't be targeted by any spell that applies to a target the caster can see, for example, Counterspell.

Round 2, if Darkness is up, Sorcerer (who is invisible) casts Dispel Magic. This can not be counterspelled because, as noted, invisible.

On round 3, repeat unless the Warlock has burned all his pact spells, with only Cantrips remaining. Proceed to murder the Warlock.

If the Sorcerer wants to be a true terror, they can hide and then use subtle spell on further castings to make them totally untargetable and impossible to fight.

If the Sorcerer wants to stick around and fight instead of just leaving, with Lightning Bolt/Fireball and Ice Storm available, the Sorcerer should be able to kill the Warlock using AoE (i.e. forcing the Warlock to make saves they aren't proficient in or die). This might be overkill, but it's also something the Warlock can't counteract because they have such limited spell slots with Pact Magic.

Pretty decent break down of how to handle darkness, except that it sounds like all that aoe is loud enough to wake the lich. Not sure if we ever got official confirmation on that though.

One more level and something like cloud kill would be great for that though.

There's till something else I'd like clarification on though: is it a victory if the other person knows they're definitely losing and screams to wake the lich out of spite?

[Vogonjeltz]

Pretty decent break down of how to handle darkness, except that it sounds like all that aoe is loud enough to wake the lich. Not sure if we ever got official confirmation on that though.

One more level and something like cloud kill would be great for that though.

There's till something else I'd like clarification on though: is it a victory if the other person knows they're definitely losing and screams to wake the lich out of spite?

Being as a sore loser is still a loser (which means being dead in this case), I'd say no, it's not victory to give up.

Side note, the quote: Impenetrable barriers the King has somehow established seem problematic. In the event that neither party is dead within 7 days the Volcano, on erupting, will have no means to relieve the pressure and would explode sideways almost certainly killing everyone in the kingdom.

Not a great plan.

[Douche]

Being as a sore loser is still a loser (which means being dead in this case), I'd say no, it's not victory to give up.

Side note, the quote: Impenetrable barriers the King has somehow established seem problematic. In the event that neither party is dead within 7 days the Volcano, on erupting, will have no means to relieve the pressure and would explode sideways almost certainly killing everyone in the kingdom.

Not a great plan.

Obviously the volcano erupting would kill everyone inside, meaning the barrier would instantly go down.

[Zorku]

Being as a sore loser is still a loser (which means being dead in this case), I'd say no, it's not victory to give up.

I was asking about the opposite side of that. Is it considered a victory if the other person gets you both killed by the lich? If not then there's a lot of mutual assured destruction dynamics to look at with this and the nature of the fight changes dramatically.