DEX Battle Master when/what should i multiclass into?

[Lendário]

Hello playground.
Tomorrow my group is starting a new game where, this time, i'm supposed to be the Archer ( In my case the Crossbow guy ) instead of my usual Cleric. And since my DM's games are pretty brutal, i want to make sure my character is reasonably optimal. Can ya'll help me with that?

So far my plan is:

Variant Human ( Crossbow Expert )
STR 10, DEX 16(20) , CON 16, INT 8, WIS 13(14) , CHA 10.

Level progression: Fighter ( Battle Master ) 12 > Rogue ( Assassin ) 3 > Fighter 5

Feat/ASI progression: Crossbow Expert ( from V.Human ) > Sharpshooter > +2 DEX > +2 DEX > Alert > Skullker > Resilient WIS

What can i improve? Am i multiclassing to late? Is the Rogue dip worth it at all?

[WickerNipple]

You should absolutely get at least one level of rogue as soon as possible. I would personally start with it. The other two levels you can do whenever it seems appropriate, any time after you have 2 attacks.

[Lendário]

You should absolutely get at least one level of rogue as soon as possible. I would personally start with it. The other two levels you can do whenever it seems appropriate, any time after you have 2 attacks.


May i ask why?
I had the impression delaying Fighters extra attack progression is a bad idea, also less starting HP.

[jaappleton]

May i ask why?
I had the impression delaying Fighters extra attack progression is a bad idea, also less starting HP.

I imagine it's so you can Hide and Dash via Cunning Action. Starting Rogue also gets you Dex saving throw proficiency as opposed to the Fighter's Con saves. Since you'll be at range, it's debatable which would benefit you more, though I personally favor Dex ST proficiency on a ranged character.

Being able to hide as a bonus action means you'll attack with Advantage more often. Though if your DM is the type to ignore stealth or make it insanely rough to hide, re-evaluate this proposal immediately.

[JellyPooga]

May i ask why?
I had the impression delaying Fighters extra attack progression is a bad idea, also less starting HP.

The reduction in starting HP is negligible. Having said that, starting Rogue is a mixed bag; the Save profs of the Fighter are way better than the Rogue, but you get one extra Skill prof starting Rogue. For optimal play, I'd start Fighter.

As for delaying Extra Attack; don't sweat it. If anything, I'd be tempted to be looking at Rogue 3/Fighter 2 at level 5. The bonus crit damage you get from hitting Assassin at Rogue 3, not to mention the boons of Cunning Action and the 2d6 regular Sneak Attack far outstrips having Extra Attack. IMO. After (character) level 5, go Battlemaster at least until Fighter 6 (CL:9) for the bonus ASI/Feat. After that, it's up to you.

Ideally, I think you want to be looking at either Rogue 12/Fighter 8 OR Rogue 9/Fighter 11 as your final build. The former is more focused on single target damage with higher Sneak Attack and more ASI's. The latter has 3 attacks per turn and slightly better Superiority Die type (d10 instead of d8), but misses out on the extra ASI at Rogue 10.


IMO, Battlemaster sort of peters out a little after its inception at level 3, because once you've got your initial Maneuvers, everything else it offers is just more stuff that you probably won't use that often (except the additional Extra Attack), while Rogue is the Class that just keeps on giving (Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Reliable Talent, more Sneak Attack, etc.) with very littel downside. If you're planning on being a back-line archer anyway, the extra HP that Fighter offers isn't much of a boon.

[jaappleton]

IMO, Battlemaster sort of peters out a little after its inception at level 3, because once you've got your initial Maneuvers, everything else it offers is just more stuff that you probably won't use that often (except the additional Extra Attack), while Rogue is the Class that just keeps on giving (Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Reliable Talent, more Sneak Attack, etc.) with very littel downside. If you're planning on being a back-line archer anyway, the extra HP that Fighter offers isn't much of a boon.

100% agreed on Battlemaster here. I mean, the Fighter class itself is very solid as a class, and can be reason enough to stick with Battlemaster. But the archetype itself doesn't add too much as you continue. Tons of feats / ASIs, Indomitable, more attacks than anyone are all good. But the BM archetype itself? Ehh... Depending on what you want to do, multiclassing after Fighter (BM) 3 or Fighter 5 (or 6 for the ASI / Feat) should be strongly considered.

[Rogozhin]

I'm playing this build right now. We started at level 10 though... went fighter (battlemaster)7/Rogue 2. Variant human and one more feat so I have sharpshooter and crossbow expert. If I had to build it from the ground up I would definitely get the second attack before dipping rogue. But don't delay too long because the ability to hide with cunning action and deal that sweet sneak attack damage is what really sweetens this build.

[WickerNipple]

May i ask why?
I had the impression delaying Fighters extra attack progression is a bad idea, also less starting HP.

+2 starting hp isn't important in the long run, especially for an archer, and delaying extra attack all of a level isn't a big deal at all.

But, +d6 sneak attack damage for the early levels is a huge deal, as is having expertise for your whole career to make you a reliable dexterity character. It also gives you all the tools you need to be the party rogue.

The downside is the saving throws, though I could argue rogue saving throws are better for a back rank archer character, I won't. If you prefer the Fighter saves just pick up rogue 1 afterwards.



I imagine it's so you can Hide and Dash via Cunning Action.

Rogues don't get this til lvl 2, which then does become kinda a lengthy wait to get extra attack if that's gonna be your thing.

[djreynolds]

Once you get that 3rd attack at 11th, and the next ASI/feat at 12th, just stay rogue.

I suppose you want max dex, con saves, crossbow expert, sharp shooter, maybe skulker, resilient wisdom, decent con score of 14.

You can wait to grab rogue after 6th level, because at 5th your proficiency score will go to +3. And you probably have an 18 in dex at 4th, and 6th you will want sharpshooter or vice versa.

Then grab rogue and fighter as you wish, toss in some ranger as you level up. Sharp shooter, some sneak attack, and maneuvers (all added after the attack roll) will allow you to keep up in combat.

[Zene]

I would definitely get the second attack before dipping rogue.

I'll echo this and double down: Stay fighter until you get your third attack at 11, then start multiclassing.

Unless you are really looking for versatility, or your group will be stealthing a ton, IMO Fighter straight to 11 is the best way to go by far. It ramps up your damage extremely quickly, gets your ASIs quicker than multiclassing, and gets your extra attacks the quickest. Extra attacks with sharpshooter = LOTS of damage.

Also, I'd suggest starting with Sharpshooter, and picking up Crossbow Expert at 4. Especially if you have anyone in your group that can cast Bless on you. Being able to do that +10 damage at low levels is nuts, and the range boost means in many situations you can stay waaaaay out of trouble (until you pick up crossbow expert and move to hand crossbow for the extra attack, but by then you're way less squishy anyway, and your frontliners will be better at frontlining).

Remember that the +10 damage from sharpshooter doesn't get doubled on a crit, so the Assassin subclass is less attractive (IMO) when compared to getting extra attacks quickly. Plus extra attacks are not dependent on surprise/stealth. That said, once you hit Fighter 11, Going Rogue 2+ for expertise, cunning action, and a little bit of sneak attack damage is a pretty great option.

Another pretty great option after Fighter 11 is Warlock 3. Darkness+Devil's sight can give you advantage on all 4 of your shots every round, meaning constant sharpshooter +10 damage, meaning insane DPR. If your DM would find this cheesy and go out of his way to smack you down for it, skip this option.

Another great option after Fighter 11 is Lore Bard 3 (for cutting words, expertise, initiative boost via Jack of All Trades, and some spells) or Lore Bard 6 (for Magical Secrets to steal Haste and/or Lighting Arrow and/or Divine Favor).

Combining Bard 6 with Warlock 3 on top of Fighter 11 means you have a bunch more slots to do the Darkness/Devil's sight combo, and a ton of resources coming back online every short rest (battlemaster dice, bardic inspiration dice, and warlock spell slots). If you don't like the Darkness/Devil's Sight Combo, I'd recommend Fighter 12/Rogue2/Bard6.

If you want to avoid spellcasting entirely, I'd go Fighter 12/Rogue 2 and then the rest in either fighter or rogue depending on how you feel.

[Citan]

Hello playground.
Tomorrow my group is starting a new game where, this time, i'm supposed to be the Archer ( In my case the Crossbow guy ) instead of my usual Cleric. And since my DM's games are pretty brutal, i want to make sure my character is reasonably optimal. Can ya'll help me with that?

So far my plan is:

Variant Human ( Crossbow Expert )
STR 10, DEX 16(20) , CON 16, INT 8, WIS 13(14) , CHA 10.

Level progression: Fighter ( Battle Master ) 12 > Rogue ( Assassin ) 3 > Fighter 5

Feat/ASI progression: Crossbow Expert ( from V.Human ) > Sharpshooter > +2 DEX > +2 DEX > Alert > Skullker > Resilient WIS

What can i improve? Am i multiclassing to late? Is the Rogue dip worth it at all?
Rogue would be much more worth for a melee character because of bonus action Dash.
For an Archer, it's arguable.
I would probably take it much earlier though because of the choice of archetype.

If you plan on taking Assassin in the end, it means you are ready to make the (significant) required effort to prepare successful ambushes so you can end most encounters in lesser rounds.
And if you are ready to that extent, getting the huge bonus of Assassin's surprise will be much more valuable in terms of damage than getting a third attack.

So I'd rather go Fighter 6 or 8 then Assassin 3 then finish Fighter.

[JellyPooga]

But, +d6 sneak attack damage for the early levels is a huge deal.

I can't reiterate this sentiment enough. Extra Attack comes online at 5th at the very earliest. Sharpshooter at 4th (seeing as you're using the VHuman bonus Feat on XBow Xpert). Having functionally double damage from as early as level 1 (or lvl.2 if you take Fighter at 1st) is a massive game changer pre-5th lvl, let alone the boons Expertise can grant; Stealth/Perception is a classic and reliable choice, but Athletics will give you the option of winning grapples against pretty much anything, even with a low Strength score. Expertise in Intimidation, Persuasion or Deception gives you a social role, or one of the lore skills, such as Arcana, will get you involved in other aspects of the game more.

So the question is; do you just want to be a combat monkey, or do you want some spotlight in other areas of play? Further to that, how long do you want to be involved in non-combat play? Your entire career, or only in the highest levels of the game, which you may never actually see?

Don't forget Cunning Action, either. It's considerd by many to be one of the best abilities in the game, in large part due to the fact that it comes online so early. The main aspect of it, though, is that no matter the situation, it's a rare combat where a character with it doesn't have a use for it and that applies double to an archer-type character; XBow Xpert might alleviate the penalty for firing in melee range, but if you wanted to be in melee, you'd be better off taking melee Feats, surely?

As I said in an earlier post Rogue 3/Fighter 2 is one of the best early game set-ups, IMO. Fighter 5 is (slightly) better at DPR, sure, but it sucks pretty hard at everything else. Add a dash of Rogue and the whole game opens up immensely.

If you also consider that while the Fighter has been waiting for level 5 to roll around to really start doing anything fun, the Rogue has been kicking butt and taking names, dealing better-than-greatsword damage, staying safely out of harms way and rocking the social and exploration pillars to their foundations to boot.

Mid to Later game, the Rogues combat potential slows down, when those couple of extra d6 damage matter less, so you pump your focus back into Fighter and pick up the slack, but your Rogue levels, sitting pretty at the start of your build? They just. Keep. On. Giving. Expertise is one of the few abilities in 5ed that actually scales with level with zero further investment. If you fail to abuse this fact, you're really missing a trick.

Extra Attack is just more damage. How can it possibly compare to being not just competent, but actively good at two areas of the game that a single-class Fighter can only hope to participate in; D&D isn't a game for participaters, it's a game for being awesome...and that's what Rogue brings to the table. Earlier the better, I say.

[RulesJD]

*snip*

Level progression: Fighter ( Battle Master ) 12 > Rogue ( Assassin ) 3 > Fighter 5

*snip*

What can i improve? Am i multiclassing to late? Is the Rogue dip worth it at all?

You want the ultimate ranged attacker? Okay:

1. Start as you are, with V.Human BM taking Crossbow Expert, same feat/ASI progression.

2. Level progression:

BM Fighter 5 -> Hunter Ranger +3 (8 overall) -> BM Fighter +6 (14 overall) -> War Cleric +6 (17 overall)

Anything above that you'll never hit in standard gameplay anyways.


Ranger + BM Fighter make for the best ranged attacker period. Significantly better than Rogue.

Why?

The goal of a ranged attacker is to maximize the use of Sharpshooter, which means more attacks per round. Thus, Hunters Mark + Horde Breaker. Hunter's Mark more than makes up for not getting Sneak Attack against larger targets. Horde Breaker means you should fairly often be pulling off 4 attacks per round at level 8, then 5 attacks per round at level 14. With Sharpshooter that's base 5d6+70 damage for 91 at-will damage before factoring in Hunter's Mark. That's stupidly good, and way, way more than just a few levels of Rogue for 2d6 extra damage will give. It would take 2.5 Sneak Attacks at Rogue 3 to make up for just 1 Horde Breaker.

Pickup War Cleric simply for access to Bless (you'll never ever miss) and +10 to hit.