Ray of Enfeeblement?

[Jamgretter]

Am I missing something or is this spell really weak? First you have to succeed a spell attack or the ray misses, and if it hits, the target does half damage on strength based weapons. At the end of the target's turn they get a Con saving throw and if they success the debuff fades. Hold Person is the same level and while it can't target every type of enemy it can cause some real damage. So this is a spell that is only effective against enemy's that focus on strength and while it makes sense from the spells perspective to be a Con save, but that's a save that almost any strength based enemy should succeed no problem. I just can't think of any scenario where this is an effective debuff. Am I wrong? I hope I am, because I love the flavor of the spell.

[JellyPooga]

Ray of Enfeeblement sucks pretty hard. When I first read the OP, I really wanted to come up with something awesome about it, but I got nuthin'. As you say, the only advantage it really has is that it can target non-humanoids; potentially handy if you come a cropper against an Ogre, Troll or some other non-humanoid big-hit-bruiser at low level, I guess, but even then they're more than likely going to pass that Con save.

On the flipside, like Witch Bolt, although the spell itself sucks, it has an awesome visual description which is RAW, so it's pretty good for impressing the yokels and setting yourself up as a badass evil sorcerer, without actually hurting anyone, I guess? Maybe you can find a use for it in a stage-play to make a few GP...

[Jerrykhor]

On the flipside, like Witch Bolt, although the spell itself sucks, it has an awesome visual description which is RAW, so it's pretty good for impressing the yokels and setting yourself up as a badass evil sorcerer, without actually hurting anyone, I guess? Maybe you can find a use for it in a stage-play to make a few GP...

Witchbolt flat out sucks. Only Warlocks and Wizards have it, and both got better spells to spend their slots on. It needs to be guaranteed hit at least, and even that wouldn't make it better than Hex+EB, or Magic Missiles. For warlocks its real kick in the teeth when it misses, and it still wastes a precious spell slot. It also needs the same effect of Shocking Grasp, it is lightning after all.

[Sicarius Victis]

Witchbolt flat out sucks. Only Warlocks and Wizards have it, and both got better spells to spend their slots on. It needs to be guaranteed hit at least, and even that wouldn't make it better than Hex+EB, or Magic Missiles. For warlocks its real kick in the teeth when it misses, and it still wastes a precious spell slot. It also needs the same effect of Shocking Grasp, it is lightning after all.

I figure Witch Bolt might be decent if it used a bonus action instead of an action, and/or triggered effects such Elemental Affinity more than once. Might have to see if I can find someone who might test that out...

But when it comes to Ray of Enfeeblement, yeah. It's basically worthless. Too bad, though, because it could have been so fun.

[Jerrykhor]

I figure Witch Bolt might be decent if it used a bonus action instead of an action, and/or triggered effects such Elemental Affinity more than once. Might have to see if I can find someone who might test that out...

But when it comes to Ray of Enfeeblement, yeah. It's basically worthless. Too bad, though, because it could have been so fun.

It needs a lot of buffing to even compare to Hex. Hex never misses, is a bonus action, lasts for hours, can transfer to another target when current target dies, and also applies disadvantage. Witchbolt is everything that Hex is not, and both uses 1 spell slot and concentration. Its silly balancing, really.

[JellyPooga]

Witchbolt flat out sucks.

Which is why I'm comparing Ray of Enfeeblement to it :smallconfused:

Having said that, even Witch Bolt has one use; if you have a pet Shambling Mound (for some reason), it's a pretty decent buff for them (as long as you stay within 30ft). RoE is just flat out useless, barring its cool visual effect.

[Specter]

I find it nice for Arcane Tricksters, because hiding is easy and they make the other dude save with disadvantage.

[Kane0]

I'd like to see Ray of enfeeblement become more like ray of sickness.

Ray of sickness: 1st level Necro spell that deals 2d8 poison damage + 1d8 per slot above 1st, plus on a hit forces a con save or poisoned for 1 round. No concentration.
New ray of Enfeeblement: 2nd level Necro spell that deals 2d8 necrotic damage + 1d8 per slot above 2nd, plus on a hit forces a con save or deal half damage with weapon attacks for 1 minute (new save at end of each turn). No concentration.

Makes it a bit more competitive.

[Ashrym]

Witchbolt flat out sucks. Only Warlocks and Wizards have it, and both got better spells to spend their slots on. It needs to be guaranteed hit at least, and even that wouldn't make it better than Hex+EB, or Magic Missiles. For warlocks its real kick in the teeth when it misses, and it still wastes a precious spell slot. It also needs the same effect of Shocking Grasp, it is lightning after all.

Witch Bolt is also a sorcerer spell. It's not so bad twinned.

It's hard to see a reason to carry ray of enfeeblement.

[SharkForce]

Witch Bolt is also a sorcerer spell. It's not so bad twinned.

It's hard to see a reason to carry ray of enfeeblement.

it's still pretty bad twinned. there isn't much of a reliable means of keeping two people in it, and while 2d12 damage per action is certainly better than 1d12 per action (assuming they don't just walk away and then come back), it still means you spent actual resources to get an unimpressive amount of damage. dealing unimpressive amounts of damage is what cantrips are for.

you could have instead twinned a firebolt and gotten nearly as much damage, but you would at least still have your level 1 spell slot.

it's hard to see a reason to use either spell in their current form. which is a bit of a shame, since ray of enfeeblement actually does something different from other spell effects.

[Ashrym]

it's still pretty bad twinned. there isn't much of a reliable means of keeping two people in it, and while 2d12 damage per action is certainly better than 1d12 per action (assuming they don't just walk away and then come back), it still means you spent actual resources to get an unimpressive amount of damage. dealing unimpressive amounts of damage is what cantrips are for.

you could have instead twinned a firebolt and gotten nearly as much damage, but you would at least still have your level 1 spell slot.

it's hard to see a reason to use either spell in their current form. which is a bit of a shame, since ray of enfeeblement actually does something different from other spell effects.

Twinning firebolt eats up sorcery points too fast. Twinning witch bolt sustains dot damage but only costs the sorcery point once.

It depends how many rounds the damage is expected to continue.

[JellyPooga]

Witch Bolt gets a lot of flak, most of it well deserved, but the fact is that the only real drawback at least in the very early game, is that it's easy to get out of range. That range, however, is 30ft (60ft if you have Spell Sniper). In your typical dungeon crawl or building, though, 10ftx30ft and 5ftx30ft corridors are pretty common, as are 10x10 or 20x20 rooms; if someone moves out of range, they're practically leaving the encounter. In these kind of circumstances Witch Bolt doesn't do a great deal of damage per round, no, but it is a relatively light resource expenditure (only a single 1st level spell) and 10d12 total damage is practically a death spell in the level 1-5 region (average 65 damage; good enough to kill an Ogre). When you add the fact that you only need to hit once; when it's possible to rig a lot in your favour for a single attack roll (True Strike, Bardic Inspiration, Bless, to name a handful available at level 1), sitting back and quoting The Emperor from Star Wars while you casually electrocute your foe to death starts looking quite tempting. Compared to the comparable damage of a cantrip that has to roll to hit every round to match up, Witch Bolt doesn't look so bad. At higher levels, yes, Witch Bolt is terrible, because Cantrips get better with character level and spells don't, but I think it has a niche in those early levels.[/derail]

Ray of Enfeeblement, though? Aside from putting on some kind of visual display for the uninitiated, as I mentioned before, it's use is so incredibly situational that it might as well not exist. Adding damage and/or multiple targets, or even additional status effects when up-casting it would make it a more appealing spell.

Come to think of it, rolling RoE and Witch Bolt into a single spell, somehow, might not be a bad idea...

[SharkForce]

witch bolt might force a monster to back off for one round. that's about it. slightly better than a cantrip (if you have a couple of rounds of setup first) is not a compelling argument. you might kill one creature with it. or you might get hit by a ranged attack and lose concentration because at level 1 nobody is particularly likely to make a con save even if the DC is only 10. or, as i mentioned, the target might just back off and come back - unless you're right next to it when you start (in which case never mind ranged attacks, it can just hit you... witch bolt offers no CC whatsoever) it probably only needs 15-20 feet of movement to get out of range (and then 15-20 feet of movement to get back).

i think ray of enfeeblement might be worth it if it didn't require concentration, though. attack roll to hit and then saves at the end of the target's turn is not really that different from how most save-based spells work. so that would probably be enough to make it worthwhile.

[Aett_Thorn]

Ray of Enfeeblement either needs to not take concentration, or needs to have only the single save at the beginning. It's not like you're shutting an enemy down, you're just lowering their damage. I mean, it's got an assumed target restriction anyways, since it's basically worthless against enemy casters, rogues, or fighters using dex-based weapons. So you're basically only going to be using it against strength-based enemies, who are also likely to have decent Con to make the save anyways. So while it doesn't have a rules-based target restriction, it has a de facto one because of what it does. So it needs something to make up for it.

For Witch Bolt, would adding a rider such as "if a target is damaged by this spell, its movement speed is reduced by half this round and it can't use reactions" be enough to help it out?