Help make my first aquatic encounter memorable, please?

[DMThac0]

As the title indicates I'm working on my first aquatic encounter and I really don't have much to go on. I've never used aquatic monsters, I have a limited understanding of aquatic combat, and I have never been in an aquatic encounter as a player either. That said:

The players have accepted a request to help the local apothecary in obtaining some hard to get plants from the ocean. As the players are ready to journey out to sea they are given some herbs which will allow them to breath underwater to aid in the endeavor (yes I did take the idea from a very popular series). Upon finding the location marked on the navigational charts, hazarding some inclement weather and maybe some sea-sickness, they find themselves diving down into the depths only to be beset upon by some very unhappy sea folk. As it turns out the plants the party is harvesting also happen to be the same crop that these sea folk are growing for their lucrative drug trade.

Party = 6 lvl 3 players, Barbarian, Sorcerer, Druid, Bard and 2x Rogue.

I have the core 3 books and I can toss a dart to choose what creatures to toss at them but I was wondering if you all could help me round this off to make it somewhat more thematic/memorable. I don't really want to just make this a smash and grab, but I'm not too sure how to go from here.

Thanks in advance!

PS I'll finish this thread off with an update on how the players enjoyed the experience so you all can see what your contributions did to help :smallsmile:

[TrinculoLives]

Well when I think of underwater fighting, images of James Bond ripping off goon's breathing apparatuses, slimy creatures dragging air-breathers down into the seaweed, and lone figures desperately cutting at the ropes that are dragging them down into the darkness come to mind.

All those are about breathing though, aren't they? And that's not really a problem for your players because of their gillyweed coughahem magic herbs.

So, I would suggest focusing on the aspects of combat that fighting underwater specifically affect. For example, underwater you have to look out for danger from all directions: unless you're on the seabed, you can be attacked from any direction.

There are, obviously, the underwater combat rules in the PHB on page 198.

Including some unique under-water hazards would be memorable. Dangerous undercurrents for example, sharp piercing coral, clouds of stinging jellyfishes.

I don't know, I think it's less the combat that makes underwater adventures great as it is the exploration. Coming across a sunken airship, or a storm giant's underwater palace, are certainly memorable. Encountering a Bronze dragon who is searching for treasure, as the DMG's Random Undersea Encounters on page 116, would be different.

On page 117 of the DMG there is a Encounter Distance chart. Fighting an enemy who has tremor-sense (sonar?) when you can only see 10 ft. into the murk would be pretty frightening.

...Also probably a TPK. Don't do that last one. :smalleek:

[Aembrosia]

Please enjoy this stupid ****ing map (in an endearing way) i just made because of this thread. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/55568275/untervasser.png

[DMThac0]

...Snip...

...Also probably a TPK. Don't do that last one.

Definately going to avoid the TPK if at all possible, I really like the group and don't want them forming a coup against me...

I love the "from all sides" point, I just realized I had actually been seeing it in a purely 2d way not even considering the z-axis. I also like that you pointed out the environment, I can see giving them some Great Barrier Reef type scenic event as they're diving down.

Aembrosia: I love the map, in the most endearing way, especially the descriptive term used for the quest goal :smallcool:. I'll probably give it a bit more area, but that is a fine place to start, danke!

[Laserlight]

Including some unique under-water hazards would be memorable. Dangerous undercurrents for example, sharp piercing coral, clouds of stinging jellyfishes.
...
On page 117 of the DMG there is a Encounter Distance chart. Fighting an enemy who has tremor-sense (sonar?) when you can only see 10 ft. into the murk would be pretty frightening.
...Also probably a TPK. Don't do that last one. :smalleek:

Poisonous coral, poisonous octopi, poisonous lionfish, etc. Sea serpents. Electric eels. Using manta rays as mounts. Really big monsters, such as a 60ft long shark.
Darkness. Mud and ooze on the bottom. Weighted nets.

[Renvir]

Well when I think of underwater fighting, images of James Bond ripping off goon's breathing apparatuses, slimy creatures dragging air-breathers down into the seaweed, and lone figures desperately cutting at the ropes that are dragging them down into the darkness come to mind.

All those are about breathing though, aren't they? And that's not really a problem for your players because of their gillyweed coughahem magic herbs.

So, I would suggest focusing on the aspects of combat that fighting underwater specifically affect. For example, underwater you have to look out for danger from all directions: unless you're on the seabed, you can be attacked from any direction.

There are, obviously, the underwater combat rules in the PHB on page 198.

Including some unique under-water hazards would be memorable. Dangerous undercurrents for example, sharp piercing coral, clouds of stinging jellyfishes.

I don't know, I think it's less the combat that makes underwater adventures great as it is the exploration. Coming across a sunken airship, or a storm giant's underwater palace, are certainly memorable. Encountering a Bronze dragon who is searching for treasure, as the DMG's Random Undersea Encounters on page 116, would be different.

On page 117 of the DMG there is a Encounter Distance chart. Fighting an enemy who has tremor-sense (sonar?) when you can only see 10 ft. into the murk would be pretty frightening.

...Also probably a TPK. Don't do that last one. :smalleek:

I like the dangerous undercurrents acting as a environmental hazard. Fights can become static at times and a current, magical or not, can really alter the landscape of an encounter. Pushing people and monsters around can really spice things up. Another addition is sharks and other creatures that smell blood. As soon as someone takes damage you could start rolling to see if a random shark joins the fray.

[Rhiarion]

I ran a session with underwater Undead that was memorable.
I had the players explore caverns with their water-breathing on a timer.
I had the BBEG as a Mummy (to play into the fire vulnerablity)

have fun.

[MrStabby]

Do they have the weed already?

If not, consider some other sources of breathing - like a breath water spell. This allows you to drop a well times dispell magic to change the dynamic of an encounter (probably a late one, as you dont want to screw with them too much).


Visibility is something you should play with. Firstly as you get deeper it gets darker and the light radius of spells will diminish somewhat. Furthermore, any fight on the bottom of the seabed will churn up mud obscuring everything.

Do they gain a swim speed? If they are slow then hit and run encounters could work - nice to combine with hidden currents. Hidden currents can spit up the party and fast enemies can gang up on one half whilst the other is further away.

[Gastronomie]

Another addition is sharks and other creatures that smell blood. As soon as someone takes damage you could start rolling to see if a random shark joins the fray.DAMN YOU NINJAD ME YOU NINJA

Yeah, this would be a pretty interesting addition to the encounter. The sharks may damage the wounded player characters even more, or alternatively, they may finish off the enemies quicker.

Blood and other stuff may create "murky water" that gets dispersed in several rounds. Until then, the area hinders sight.

Making the maps 3-D is definitely one interesting attempt, if you have the required technology or trinkets.

But in all honestly I think underwater adventurers are more about the scenery and vivid images you describe to the players. Have you ever went scuba diving before? Because it's really beautiful down there. And I imagine that in a fantasy universe, the world underwater would be an even more awe-inspiring sight.

[DMThac0]

I can't even see the Ninja panel...

I really appreciate all the ideas you guys have given me.

@MrStabby: No the players do not already have the herbs, I haven't even put them on the encounter yet. I can see where the dismissal would make the encounter more exciting and had contemplated putting the effects of the herb on a timer as well. The idea that they could forget that the effects are temporary would cause some good mischief for when things get static.

@Gastronomie and Renvir: The sharks idea will probably be implemented, it just makes sense in the long run. The idea of going 3D isn't that hard for me to work with, having dealt with 3d modelling I can visualize 3d space fairly easily now.

The vision and varied current problems are wonderful additions to the encounter and will most likely make their way into the scenario to heighten tension. I'm also considering using slightly re-skinned creatures such as Moray eels and the like for the "guard dog" analog.

Do you think using the idea of water pressure as they get deeper is a good idea or would that be too much micro-management?

[Shining Wrath]

The herbs have a time limit, no? Therefore, time is on your side. The usual "wait for the guards to move away" sorts of tricks don't work so well when you can only stay underwater for an hour. Or the herbs have to be administered in air, or other complications. Make them act differently because they aren't in their home environment.

+1 to currents and animals drawn to blood. One swarm of quippers is a nuisance; 10 is a serious threat.

Don't forget underwater traps should be different. Dropping rocks on people won't do as much damage. A lightning bolt turns into an electric fireball. Opening a pit below someone is a minor inconvenience because they'll just swim back up.

You can also throw in unexpected allies. A pod of killer whales may disapprove of the drug trade and show up to tip the scales in a battle. Life below the sea is brutal and if you're fighting the merrows the sahuagin may take your side because you'll be gone tomorrow but the merrow / sahuagin war is eternal.

[Notafish]

Do you think using the idea of water pressure as they get deeper is a good idea or would that be too much micro-management?

I think extremely deep trench areas that could cause bludgeoning damage might be interesting hazards, but difficult to implement while suspending disbelief and giving the players a reasonable chance of survival.

Requiring decompression after a deep dive (assuming the characters are breathing air) would definitely be too much micromanagement, imho.

However, light would certainly get dimmer as characters descend.

Something else to consider -- both in and out of combat encounters -- is that verbal speech (and possibly verbal spell components as well) is impossible underwater. Negotiating in mime is pretty different from negotiating in a common language.

[DMThac0]

Life below the sea is brutal and if you're fighting the merrows the sahuagin may take your side because you'll be gone tomorrow but the merrow / sahuagin war is eternal.

This is something I had been trying to figure out, and you have provided the perfect tool, yay!


Something else to consider -- both in and out of combat encounters -- is that verbal speech (and possibly verbal spell components as well) is impossible underwater. Negotiating in mime is pretty different from negotiating in a common language.

I'm really looking forward to this problem and how the players solve it, I'm intentionally avoiding the "universal translator" to promote that kind of situation.


This is great, what started off as a joke idea with my roommate has now turned into a full fledged concept that I'm excited to throw at my players.

[mgshamster]

In my OotA campaign, as the PC's traversed the Darklake, I had them be attacked by other humanoids on boats, as well as dark mantles falling from the ceiling. After the first battle, they started getting followed by an aquatic troll.

Now, I never planned to have the troll attack them. It just followed them for the free food they left behind when they killed other creatures and bandits attacking them. But they didn't know that, and it made them super paranoid.

The next time they were on the lake, they run aground and had to carry their boats over land through a tunnel to get to a place to keep rowing. While on that land, I set up an encounter with a trio of sea hags who used magic to seduce them and tried to kill them.

The third time theg were on the lake, they had to find a specific river feeding into the lake, and then dive down to an underwater temple and explore the temple. In the temple, they had to face an abolith with merrow, dwarves, and kuo-tao under its control. In addition, just before they made the dive, the abolith used it's water surge ability to capture three of their NPC Allies. It charmed their allies and used them against the PCs in the fight. This was multipart dungeon with several smaller fights before reaching the Abolith. As they fought, the blood in the water attracted predators. They had to get past swarming quippers (basically pirhannas). If they were in ocean waters, they would have also attracted sharks. Seeing as this was OotA, they instead attracted Vampiric Ixitchitl.

Lastly, I threw in a Death Minnow (from second edition). This little guy is a 2 inch long Minnow that can cast enlarge on itself, making it large sized. Then it uses suction to consume one large or smaller creature. Then it casts reduce on itself and returns to 2 inches long (also shrinking its prey) and swims off enjoying its meal. If the PCs never see it enlarge, then they will never know what happened to the party member who disappeared.

[Yagyujubei]

I personally think that I would be cooler if rather than a breathing herb you placed points on the map where your party could replenish their supply of oxygen (think diving bells or cracks where oxygen is bubbling up or something like that) and give them a number of turns before they have to replenish it. That way they have to be more strategic about how they move around and where the currents are so they don't get pushed too far away from their lifeline.

underwater def. gives great options for difficult terrain and interesting movement with the currents and seaweed or plant life that would reduce visibility and make it more difficult to move around. also think about how the physics of water would effect the things the party could do, almost every attack from and against the party would cause movement (probably dont trigger OA's in this case) but because there's no friction getting hit or hitting would push you back. It would be easy for a merfolk to bullrush a pt member and push them their entire movespeed into a dangerous current or into sharp coral for damage. If you do go 3D here, it would make sense the the party would have to spend some part of their movement to "tread water" or they would begin to sink. Obviously underwater fire magic isnt going to work well, and lightning magic would have huge AoE effects due to the dispersion of electricity. Bright light would be extra effective against creatures who spend their life in the dark, loud sounds would be very damaging and confusing to underwater creatures, but would also likely harm and party members close by. Ranged weapons such as bow and crossbow bolts would also be effected by the currents so the further away from the target they are the less likely a hit will happen AND their range would be greatly reduced in the first place (ever seen a bullet fired underwater?)

there's a bunch of other stuff im not thinking of right now, but water has tons of interesting applications on the physics of combat you can play around with.

[Zorku]

You usually want to offer a pretty light weight encounter underwater, as the disadvantage affecting everyone (that's not a druid in aquatic form or a caster with alter self,) is a rather intense debuff to the whole party. You can get a lot out of the environment by giving the players access to some air pockets (in caves, temples, etc,) so that they can operate much better in a fight, if only they can find a way to determine where the fight breaks out...

Mechanically, it can be a lot of fun to orchestrate a combat that takes place on the border between air and water, like when some giant tentacled beast keeps pulling party members into the water.


More generally underwater environments on earth have such a wide range of variety to them that they put above sea line environments to shame. Where the party is only going to spend a relatively short while underwater, and their goal is a plant, we're interested in the better lit depths (unless for fantasy reasons there's some other light source involved in growing these.)

If the plant isn't anchored, but instead maintains buoyancy to stay in bright enough water, then you can get the players real lost, as there aren't many useful landmarks in sufficiently open water. Otherwise, we're probably looking at continental shelf type environments. Pretty much 660 ft of water to play with here (at low tide.)

There's no way I can cover all of that (and I'm fairly likely to go down wild tangents about the variety among sponges,) but wikipedia has a pretty nicely organized entry for marine habitats that you can use amp up your descriptions of whatever environments you decide the party will be going through.

Besides the fish and shark type creatures maybe show some love to sea urchins, brittle stars, the various crustaceans, and the aquatic worms (I can picture some merfolk challenging the rogue to sneak up on a feather duster worm for some laughs, or jaw dropping shock if he pulls it off somehow.)

[Zorku]

I personally think that I would be cooler if rather than a breathing herb you placed points on the map where your party could replenish their supply of oxygen (think diving bells or cracks where oxygen is bubbling up or something like that) and give them a number of turns before they have to replenish it. That way they have to be more strategic about how they move around and where the currents are so they don't get pushed too far away from their lifeline.
Although I love that idea for videogame sorts of applications, I don't think it will translate well to this particular game. Maaaaybe if you isolate just one person and they have to deal with it while the rest of the party tries to free them or restore their water breathing from a distance somehow, but in general, no.


underwater def. gives great options for difficult terrain and interesting movement with the currents and seaweed or plant life that would reduce visibility and make it more difficult to move around. also think about how the physics of water would effect the things the party could do, almost every attack from and against the party would cause movement (probably dont trigger OA's in this case) but because there's no friction getting hit or hitting would push you back.

Forced movement never does. Opportunity attacks are for when you straight up stop paying attention to somebody that's engaged in melee combat with you to turn around and run from them. Personally I imagine any melee combat involves a lot of dodging and parrying attacks while the one (or up to three) damaging attacks are happening during moments where there's an opening or the other guy is off balance. An attack of opportunity is exactly that same stuff, except without the person actively dealing with it this gets to be a serious attack.

If that wasn't terribly clear, watch two people go at each other with fencing foils- only some of those movements are an actual attack that's possibly going to score a hit, the rest is this active dance to keep the other guy busy while trying not to leave yourself too vulnerable.


It would be easy for a merfolk to bullrush a pt member and push them their entire movespeed into a dangerous current or into sharp coral for damage. If you do go 3D here, it would make sense the the party would have to spend some part of their movement to "tread water" or they would begin to sink. Obviously underwater fire magic isnt going to work well, and lightning magic would have huge AoE effects due to the dispersion of electricity.

As per the rules everything gains fire resistance underwater.

Seeing as electric spells only sometimes follow the shortest and most conductive path into a ground, and that there are no rules for step potential or similar situations in game, I wouldn't be too terribly worried about altering the use of these spells to backfire. They seem to be less about creating the extreme conditions of lightning and more about bending the rules so that a much weaker shock (by comparison) can travel in an unnatural way to a target. For this I'll reference the electric eel. These creatures are well enough able to deliver a stun gun type shock to nearby creatures in the water, and that's what it takes to hurt or, slightly stronger, to burn flesh. Once that current is traveling through your body it does the same thing no matter how it got there. We usually think of lightning as being much stronger in air, because air is an insulator, so you need a lot more electricity just to get from point A to point B, but the danger falls off quickly with distance. We don't see anything like that with the spells- they just cover a particular area and hit at a particular potency regardless of how much air they travel through.

This is probably going a little overboard with modern physics though, and fantasy settings aren't really meant to operate like that.

For game purposes I could reasonably see dealing around 1/3rd of the damage to nearby creatures, or redirecting the attack on a critical failure. I probably wouldn't change the area of effect much.


Bright light would be extra effective against creatures who spend their life in the dark, loud sounds would be very damaging and confusing to underwater creatures, but would also likely harm and party members close by. Shatter could make one hell of a depth charge...


Ranged weapons such as bow and crossbow bolts would also be effected by the currents so the further away from the target they are the less likely a hit will happen AND their range would be greatly reduced in the first place (ever seen a bullet fired underwater?) Again, the basic rules cover this. You're already at disadvantage making there attacks if you're not aquatic enough to have a swim speed, and going for those long range shots that would normally impose disadvantage is just not at all possible.

Crossbows, daggers, darts, nets, shortswords, and small spear type weapons don't suffer disadvantage in this environment, which makes enough sense, but is still playable.

[DMThac0]

Lastly, I threw in a Death Minnow (from second edition). This little guy is a 2 inch long Minnow that can cast enlarge on itself, making it large sized. Then it uses suction to consume one large or smaller creature. Then it casts reduce on itself and returns to 2 inches long (also shrinking its prey) and swims off enjoying its meal. If the PCs never see it enlarge, then they will never know what happened to the party member who disappeared.

I am not sure something like this will work with the current adventure but I am adding this, or something equivalent, to the campaign. That is just the kind of shenanigans I love to use.


I personally think that I would be cooler if rather than a breathing herb you placed points on the map where your party could replenish their supply of oxygen (think diving bells or cracks where oxygen is bubbling up or something like that) and give them a number of turns before they have to replenish it. That way they have to be more strategic about how they move around and where the currents are so they don't get pushed too far away from their lifeline.

I'm inclined to agree that this doesn't seem to translate well with what I'm having the players accomplish. However I think adding an implied timer to the effects of the herb would equate to something similar while not being too difficult to manage, unless combat/movement really impedes them.


You usually want to offer a pretty light weight encounter underwater, as the disadvantage affecting everyone (that's not a druid in aquatic form or a caster with alter self,) is a rather intense debuff to the whole party. You can get a lot out of the environment by giving the players access to some air pockets (in caves, temples, etc,) so that they can operate much better in a fight, if only they can find a way to determine where the fight breaks out...
**and the 2nd post**

Working with a DM at my LGS I managed to hash out the combat mechanics of the encounter and a few tips from his personal experiences. It helped me understand the point you were making here. I also found the 2nd post extremely helpful narrowing down questions I didn't know I should be asking.

When it comes to this adventure, from what most of you have said, it sounds like the "flavor" I add to describing the scene is the key to this. Describing the scene, combat, and the environment will have as much, if not more, impact on the players as the encounter itself.

[MrStabby]

I would be tempted to go towards the hard side for this encounter. Make the PCs scared to even take a bath ever again. Use everything nasty.

Breathing support that doesn't last the whole mission length, disadvantage with many of their familiar weapons, so spells with a verbal component, open wounds summoning sharks, currents splitting up the party, mud clouds obscuring enemy approaches, everything resistant to fire attacks, and big swimming penalties for heavy armour together can make an encounter hard, but more than that it can force the players to find new tactics, new spells and so on.

There doesn't have to be a simple single environment either. An underwater plateau with good light and no great depth is fine, but you can add in some hot vents that deal fire damage to those nearby and add in an underwater crevasse or two from whence tentacled monsters can emerge to grab PCs and pull them back down into the dark depths.

[Zorku]

Working with a DM at my LGS I managed to hash out the combat mechanics of the encounter and a few tips from his personal experiences. It helped me understand the point you were making here.
Which one? I kind of ran rough shod over a lot of things.


I also found the 2nd post extremely helpful narrowing down questions I didn't know I should be asking.Thank you.


When it comes to this adventure, from what most of you have said, it sounds like the "flavor" I add to describing the scene is the key to this. Describing the scene, combat, and the environment will have as much, if not more, impact on the players as the encounter itself.
I might have been a bit overzealous with that- I'm just so used to seeing people describe underwater areas as though it's an underwater desert, a crowded coral reef, and deep dark pit, and nothing else.

When you're familiar with this it feels like there's so much more potential to be had there.

Where the party has their movement cut in half for the most part, suffers disadvantage on all attacks except with diving appropriate weapons, and has this choking hazard to be concerned with, it's kind of natural to take the scuba diving trip approach. If you've never been scuba diving that's going to be harder to pull off, but it's also fantasy so in those kelp forests they can get a glimpse of the gargantuan snails that kuo-toa tend to turn into houses and so on.

If they've got somebody to actually tell them that they should stock up on throwing spears and such, then it's fair to throw better fights at them, but they're still probably going to be down any of the usual magic bonuses on their primary weapons, maybe nobody is proficient with a trident, if you've got a monk in the party they almost certainly don't have a monastery version of these weapons, etc. Their ability to deal damage is almost certainly getting scaled back a bit from all of this.

-

As for the matter of no verbal components underwater, that might be a bridge too far. If you can breathe the water then you can at least make some kind of noise while you exhale. This is a good reason to impose all kinds of home brew complications to casting with verbal components, but there's almost nothing left if you rule it out entirely.

(Control Flames, Friends, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Shape Water, Thunderclap, True Strike, absorb elements, catapult, ice knife, illusory script, beast sense, counterspell, hypnotic patterns, mislead, demiplane.)

If your casters have been taking spells from the elemental evil supplement then they're not completely impotent, but if it's all player's handbook stuff then you're looking at minor illusion and hypnotic pattern as about the only spells you're going to see out of a caster (unless they can bob their head out of the water for the verbal stuff then dip back in to fire off the spell.)

At the very least, I don't think that's RAI.

Now, without a water breathing effect then yeah, of course they can't pull off verbal components underwater. Maaaaybe like a cantrip if they want to give up 30 seconds worth of holding their breath for it.


snip
mud clouds obscuring enemy approaches
snip
That has all been mentioned a few times now, but time reminded me of the dolphins that hit the sea bed as they move along to kick up a ring of muck when they hunt down a school of fish. Perhaps there should be some little shrine with a chance to appease or displease some sea god, and that can be tied to whether the dolphins start being jerks to the party or not. (Not even combatants, they just kick up some clouds where the party doesn't want them then swim off, possibly managing a high five with each other as they swim off.

I like the idea of dolphins being dude bros if anybody pulls off a talk with animals on them...