Griffon cavalry help again

[Melcar]

Hello...

Some time ago, I asked some questions about how the combination of rider and griffon mount interacted during flying melee combat. Despite a lot of great answers there were still some things that I don't quite get. I'm slow that way i guess.

1) When the rider is doing a ride-by attack, while flying, i.e. flying low along the ground, does the mount get to attack too? And if so what kind? Would that situation just pan out like the mount doing a fly-by attack?

2) Can the rider initiate a ride-by attack, while flying, from higher altitude (the mount effectively doing a dive - witch can be done with a fly-by)? And if so, what kind of attack would the mount get to do?

3) If the mount is doing a great fly-by attack, would the rider get to attack also? And if so, how many?

4) If the mount does a charge action from high altitude (doing a dive), would the rider get to attack also? And if so how many?

5) Is there any way to do a ride-by attack (or similar), where the mount would get to charge too?

I think that is it right now. I want to apologize if I'm asking simple question that might have been answered before, but I'm still not getting it clearly! :smallredface:

Thanks in advance!

[Darrin]

1) When the rider is doing a ride-by attack, while flying, i.e. flying low along the ground, does the mount get to attack too? And if so what kind? Would that situation just pan out like the mount doing a fly-by attack?


Ride-By Attack, as it's written, is not entirely functional. It assumes that the rider is the one charging, but it's the mount that's doing the charging. The rider, being mounted, isn't really capable of moving or charging until he dismounts. But presumably you're using Ride-By Attack as intended rather than written...

So. We'll assume the mount is the one using a full-round action to charge. Your mount moves into melee range, you take your single melee attack, and then your mount moves off in a straight line. There is nothing in the Ride-By Attack text that allows your mount to attack in the middle of a charge rather than at the end. If your mount finishes its charge close enough that your target is still within it's reach (large creatures may have longer reach than medium-sized riders), it could still get an attack, but the whole point of Ride-By Attack is to finish your turn outside of your opponent's melee range. So to answer your question... yes, the mount can still get an attack at the end of a charge, but doing so would likely defeat the purpose of Ride-By Attack.

If the mount has the ability to move-attack-move, such as having Spring Attack or Fly-By Attack, then the answer would be... "No", but for stupid reasons that should be hand-waved away: the action types are incompatible with charging. Spring Attack and Fly-By Attack require move and standard actions, while charging is a full-round action. Since this is a stupid reason, my advice is to houserule this so it works like you think it should: mount charges, you both get to attack the target, and then your mount continues to move past the target. Everybody is happy (except the target, presumably).



2) Can the rider initiate a ride-by attack, while flying, from higher altitude (the mount effectively doing a dive - witch can be done with a fly-by)? And if so, what kind of attack would the mount get to do?


By RAW... No. The charge action and Fly-By Attack are incompatible.

That being said... it wouldn't be unheard of to just let this happen and call it "Rule of Cool".

If the mount is making a "Dive Attack", then this counts as a charge, but the creature can only make claw or talon attacks as per the MM. Well, it sorta depends on how it got a fly speed... some methods give you a Dive Attack that works with any piercing weapon. Presumably, the MM restriction on "claw or talon" is a simplified version of "any piercing weapon".



3) If the mount is doing a great fly-by attack, would the rider get to attack also? And if so, how many?


By RAW, the rider has to wait until his mount gets into melee distance, and then gets a single melee attack. If the mount was using ordinary Fly-By Attack, then presumably the rider would take his attack at the same point his mount does, although there may be an argument that the rider could attack something else if his mount is moving past a target but not necessarily attacking it.

With Great Fly-By attack, the mount could be attacking multiple targets, so... presumably the rider would still get a single melee attack, but by best guess is he could pick which target once he gets within melee range of it.

However, there are two work-arounds that you might be able to use:

Rider "readies" a standard action, with the triggering condition worded so he takes his turn when he gets within melee range of a particular target (or first target or whatever). In fact, it may be easier to just assume this is the default action whenever the rider wants to make a melee attack from a moving mount.

Rider "delays" his turn until after his mount moves. This should allow him to make a full attack even if his mount did something like charge or double-move or whatever. By RAW, this should work with an intelligent mount because it's technically not depending on the rider telling it what to do. However, if your mount has animal intelligence and you need to make a ride check to control it in combat, then it's bending the rules a bit to allow you to direct your mount in combat (usually a free action, but whatever) and then finish your turn on a different initiative count.



4) If the mount does a charge action from high altitude (doing a dive), would the rider get to attack also? And if so how many?


A single melee attack at the end of a charge. +2 attack bonus for your mount charging, +1 attack bonus for higher ground.

If it was in one of my games... then there'd probably also be a +2 circumstance bonus if you're a dive-bombing dwarf (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20650036&postcount=77).



5) Is there any way to do a ride-by attack (or similar), where the mount would get to charge too?


The mount is already charging. The rider gets the same benefit (+2 attack bonus). If the rider wants to charge, then he'd have to dismount first.



I think that is it right now. I want to apologize if I'm asking simple question that might have been answered before, but I'm still not getting it clearly! :smallredface:


The mounted combat rules are borked, and they don't get talked about a lot because near as I can tell, hardly anybody uses them. Most D&D encounters start with everyone on foot within 60' to 100', or underground, or in some environment where a typical mount has the combat survivability of wet tissue paper.

If you plan to use mounted combat often, then you need to work out an agreement with the DM beforehand so he can make sure some of the encounters can accommodate mounts, and you have to put in a couple house rules to fix the dysfunctional stuff like Ride-By Attack.

[Melcar]

Thank you very much for that great answer. It really cleared a lot of stuff up for me. Although I will probably have more questions in the future about the very nature of mounted combat, since I personally don’t believe, just like grappling, that the rules are clear, when starting to combine feats and when both the mount and rider get a lot of feats in combination.

Now at this moment, I do have a couple of question particularly about the Power Dive ability of the Aglarondan Griffonrider, and the Full Mounted Attack of the Cavalier.

Considering the Rider having the following feats:
Weapon Focus (Lance), Spirited Charge, Mounted Fighting, Cavalry Charger Trample, Celestial Mount, Overwhelming Charge, Weapon Spec. (Lance), Improved Initiative, Weapon Mastery (Lance), Track, Skill Focus (Handle Animal), Shield Specialization, Mounted Combat and Ride-By Attack

And the griffon mount having the following feats:
Iron Will, Multiattack, Weapon Focus (Bite), Improved Natural Attack (Bite), Weapon Focus (Claw), Improved Natural Attack (Claw), Air Heritage, Run, Fly-by attack, Great Flyby, Endurance, Diving Charge

The questions are:
1) Being an Aglarondan Griffonrider, would it be possible for the rider to attack the target, while doing the Power Dive or Fell Swoop ability? And if yes, what attack would it be - a standard action attack, full attack (If the rider, was also a Cavalier, and had the Full Mounted Attack) or charge?

2) Would it be correct to assume, that the Diving Charge feat, would be automatically activated, during the use of Power Dive or Fell Swoop ability?

Thanks in advance!

[Max Caysey]

Here is a useful link:

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050125a

[Darrin]

1) Being an Aglarondan Griffonrider, would it be possible for the rider to attack the target, while doing the Power Dive or Fell Swoop ability? And if yes, what attack would it be - a standard action attack, full attack (If the rider, was also a Cavalier, and had the Full Mounted Attack) or charge?


Yes, the rider could attack, but it would be a single standard action attack. As per the mounted combat rules: "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack."

No, you can't use the Cavalier's Full Mounted Attack, mostly due to designer stupidity. The text for Power Dive says, "it uses the charge action to attack". And the Cavalier's Full Mounted Attack text says, "The cavalier cannot combine this full attack with a charge."

For some reason, the designers were deathly afraid that someone would try to combine a mounted charge with a full attack. Every example we have of the "Full Mounted Attack" ability includes this restriction.

However, you can still use a work-around. Since a griffon is an intelligent creature, it can act independently from the rider and perform a dive attack on its own initiative count. The rider can delay his action so he takes his turn on the count after the griffon is done.

This would not be a Power Dive, just a normal Dive Attack, due to some technical minutiae: the Power Dive must be something the rider directs the griffon to do on his turn, so he can't delay. He can ready a standard attack, though. But the griffon's standard Dive Attack is better than the Power Dive: the griffon gets a full attack + rake when it dives.

The biggest difference between the two is the Power Dive allows the griffon to fly away from its target after making a single claw attack. However, this is already possible if the griffon just uses Fly By Attack instead, which doesn't get the +2 attack bonus for charging, but you can use the griffon's bite rather than a claw and the damage for the bite is pretty much the same: 2d6+4 vs 2d4+6 (both average = 11). Using Fly By Attack *would* allow the Cavalier to use his Full Mounted Attack ability, as the Fly By Attack is not a charge and the griffon is moving up to their speed on a single move action.

Adding Fell Swoop to Power Dive... ok, all this does is double the damage for the griffon's claw attack: 4d4 + 12ish (it's not clear if the x2 and x1.5 multipliers are additive or actually multiplied).



2) Would it be correct to assume, that the Diving Charge feat, would be automatically activated, during the use of Power Dive or Fell Swoop ability?


Yes, it would, but you only get the bonus damage on the single claw attack. And since it's "bonus damage" rather than a damage modifier, it's not multiplied by Fell Swoop.

The griffon would benefit a lot more from just a standard Dive Attack. Since the griffon gets to use Pounce, it gets bite/claw/claw, and each attack gets +3d6 damage.

So, to sum up: unless you absolutely have to move away from your target after the attack, the griffon making a standard Dive Attack is probably going to be more effective than the Power Dive: griffon gets a full attack, and the Cavalier gets a full attack.

If you absolutely have to move away after the attack, Fly By Attack is probably better than Power Dive: griffon's damage is comparable, and the Cavalier gets a full attack.

Some of the class abilities provided by Aglarondan Griffonrider are useful and possibly worth getting. However, Power Dive and Fell Swoop do not appear to be among the more useful abilities.

[Melcar]

Thank you again for the very elaborate answer. I re read all the abilities and so far I have, as usual, some follow-up questions.

1) Indeed, the cavalier can’t charge and get multiple attacks, but can’t the mount charge, while the rider doesn’t? What I mean is, wouldn’t it be possible for the mount to get the fell swoop bonuses, and the rider get none, and that way be allowed to attack multiple times via the cavalier ability? Could you choose to not have your rider charge, while your mount did, during a fell swoop? Point being, that the Power Dive/Fell Swoop does not mention the rider specifically or how it affects him/her? As I read it, it’s only the mount that uses the charge action. Isn’t the power dive/fell swoop effectively a reversed (mount vs rider) ride-by attack?

2) If the rider is not able to do the above mentioned workaround as I supposed, you state, that the rider would only get one standard action attack. Why would it not be a charge too? The reason for the rider not being able to use the cavalier full mounted attack is specifically that it’s a charge action. And if it’s a charge action then I would assume the single attack would be a charge too? And if it’s not a charge, then the rider should be able to use the full mounted attack. My point is it’s either a charge (thus letting the rider also charge) or its not, (thus letting the rider use the full mounted attack)… Or am I missing some logic? NB: The rider has the ride-by attack feat!

3) If it indeed would be a charge, would it then be correctly understood, that I would be able to combine that with the cavalier unstoppable charge ability? Meaning sextuple damage with a valorous lance?

4) Can a ride-by attack be combined with a dive attack? Thus letting both rider and mount attack charge and move on? Because that is what I really want to achieve. A ride-by attack from altitude, where the mount gets to do a dive attack (charge), deal double damage, pounce and move on. At the same time I want to have my rider be able to attack the same enemy and using the cavalier unstoppable charge ability to deal sextuple damage when passing the enemy. Is there anyway to do this? RAW?

I want to thank everyone for taking the time and having the patience with me during this time. For some reason I seem to have a hard time grasping the rules of mounted combat, the addition of a flying mount and multiple classes interactions and abilities on the already confusing rules.

PS: I’ll surely have more questions in the future!

EDIT: I have just reread the Griffon MM entry, and it says that if the griffon dives or charges it gets to attack with all its attacks. That made me think. Can it be that a dive is not actually a charge (as in uses the charge action?) The reason for this is, that everywhere its noted as being "like" a charge not actually using the charge action or actually being a charge. Could it be, that a dive does not require a full round action and is not a charge proper?

[Max Caysey]

4) Can a ride-by attack be combined with a dive attack? Thus letting both rider and mount attack charge and move on? Because that is what I really want to achieve. A ride-by attack from altitude, where the mount gets to do a dive attack (charge), deal double damage, pounce and move on. At the same time I want to have my rider be able to attack the same enemy and using the cavalier unstoppable charge ability to deal sextuple damage when passing the enemy. Is there anyway to do this? RAW?

Cant see why not. I would say it would be within reason. Still not nearing the havoc a mage can do... So I would say go. But if your asking a purely RAW question, I can't tell. The rules/feats are not elaborate enough to know for sure. :smallsmile:

[Melcar]

Cant see why not. I would say it would be within reason. Still not nearing the havoc a mage can do... So I would say go. But if your asking a purely RAW question, I can't tell. The rules/feats are not elaborate enough to know for sure. :smallsmile:

Thanks. I am However asking a raw question.

It says under dive, that it can only make claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. But under the Griffon entry it says, that when the Griffon dives or charges it can make a full attack and two rakes.

Question:

1) Is the "dive" or "charge" that the griffon can do, different from a dive attack?

2) Does a griffon do double damage when it dives (pounces)?

Thanks in advance!

[Darrin]

1) Indeed, the cavalier can’t charge and get multiple attacks, but can’t the mount charge, while the rider doesn’t? What I mean is, wouldn’t it be possible for the mount to get the fell swoop bonuses, and the rider get none, and that way be allowed to attack multiple times via the cavalier ability? Could you choose to not have your rider charge, while your mount did, during a fell swoop? Point being, that the Power Dive/Fell Swoop does not mention the rider specifically or how it affects him/her? As I read it, it’s only the mount that uses the charge action. Isn’t the power dive/fell swoop effectively a reversed (mount vs rider) ride-by attack?


While the rider is in the saddle, the rider can't charge. His mount can charge, and he gets the benefits of the charge as per the Mounted Combat rules. This benefit is a +2 attack bonus. It's not clear if there's any other benefit to his mount charging.

If the mount charges, the rider cannot full attack. The Cavalier's "Full Mounted Attack" ability cannot be used when the mount charges. That's the purpose of the sentence, "The cavalier cannot combine this full attack with a charge." In that sentence, it's not clear who is charging, but the text must be referring to the mount charging, because the rider can't because he's currently in the saddle. The only way for a Cavalier to use Full Mounted Attack is for his mount to use a move action and move somewhere from 5' up to the mount's speed. If the mount makes a double move, a charge, ride-by-attack, or anything that moves it more than it's speed, then the Cavalier can't use Full Mounted Attack. I have no idea why the designers thought the mount charging and the rider getting a full attack was so stupendously powerful that they went out of their way to make sure it was never allowed. But based on how they worded "Full Mounted Attack", they were quite specific in what they thought the mount should be doing: a single move action.

As far as Power Dive/Fell Swoop goes, this cannot be combined with the Cavalier's Full Mounted Attack ability because it requires the mount to charge. The RAW text says the rider has to direct the mount to execute a Power Dive/Fell Swoop, so the work-around where the Cavalier delays his turn until the initiative count after his mount acts doesn't quite work by RAW, although I can't really imagine a DM forcing you to stick to the absolute letter of the rules there.

Yes, the Power Dive/Fell Swoop is similar to a Ride-By Attack, but the mount is not required to move in a straight line after making the double-damage claw attack.



2) If the rider is not able to do the above mentioned workaround as I supposed, you state, that the rider would only get one standard action attack. Why would it not be a charge too? The reason for the rider not being able to use the cavalier full mounted attack is specifically that it’s a charge action. And if it’s a charge action then I would assume the single attack would be a charge too? And if it’s not a charge, then the rider should be able to use the full mounted attack. My point is it’s either a charge (thus letting the rider also charge) or its not, (thus letting the rider use the full mounted attack)… Or am I missing some logic? NB: The rider has the ride-by attack feat!


When making a mounted charge, the mount charges but the rider does not. The rider gets the *benefits* of his mount's charge (the +2 attack bonus), but is not actually charging himself. He still gets his actions on his turn, but is still restricted to a single melee attack while mounted because that's what the mounted combat rules say.

If the rider stays in his saddle, there's really no possible way for him to "charge" while his mount is also charging. In order to charge, the rider would have to be standing on his feet in his own square, move at least 10', move to the closest square, etc. It is possible for the rider to do this on the same round, but he'd have to make a "Fast Dismount" as a free action first (Ride check DC 20). The rider and the mount could then both charge on the same turn (provided there is space on the battlefield to accommodate them), but would be doing so independently of each other.



3) If it indeed would be a charge, would it then be correctly understood, that I would be able to combine that with the cavalier unstoppable charge ability? Meaning sextuple damage with a valorous lance?


It might be easier if we assume that whenever the designers refer to the rider as "charging", they mean he is directing his mount to charge. As far as Unstoppable Charge goes, yes, this can be combined with Power Dive/Fell Swoop/Ride-By Attack/Spirited Charge, but it cannot be combined with the Full Mounted Attack ability. The rider gets a single melee attack, and if it's a valorous lance, yes, you get all those juicy multipliers.



4) Can a ride-by attack be combined with a dive attack? Thus letting both rider and mount attack charge and move on? Because that is what I really want to achieve. A ride-by attack from altitude, where the mount gets to do a dive attack (charge), deal double damage, pounce and move on. At the same time I want to have my rider be able to attack the same enemy and using the cavalier unstoppable charge ability to deal sextuple damage when passing the enemy. Is there anyway to do this? RAW?


Yes, I think this works. You are directing your mount to charge when you tell it to execute a Dive Attack or a Power Dive. The rider gets a single melee attack in the middle of the mount's movement, and you get the +2 attack bonus and the damage multipliers for charging.



EDIT: I have just reread the Griffon MM entry, and it says that if the griffon dives or charges it gets to attack with all its attacks. That made me think. Can it be that a dive is not actually a charge (as in uses the charge action?) The reason for this is, that everywhere its noted as being "like" a charge not actually using the charge action or actually being a charge. Could it be, that a dive does not require a full round action and is not a charge proper?

I don't think there's any functional advantage to differentiating whether an action is an actual charge or just "like a charge". I can't see any indication in the rules where it would make sense to treat them as two separate types of actions. So I think it's safe to say a dive attack is an actual charge.

Ok, let's see if I can break all this down.


Mount's ActionsMount's AttacksMount's Movement Before AttackMount's Movement After AttackRider's ActionsRider's Attacks

Dive Attack/ChargePounce, x2 damageStraight line, minimum 30', must descend 10'NoneDirect mount (free), Standard/Readied Action to attack, move is unusedSingle melee attack, +2 bonus, charge multipliers

Ride-By AttackIf target within reach, Pounce, x2 damage. Otherwise, none.Straight line, must move at least 10'Up to double speed, must be straight lineDirect mount (free), Standard/Readied Action to attack, move is unusedSingle melee attack, +2 bonus, charge multipliers

Power Dive/Fell SwoopSingle attack with both claws, x2 damageMust begin at least 50' above targetUp to double speed, may change directionDirect mount (free), Standard/Readied Action to attack, move is unusedSingle melee attack, +2 bonus, charge multipliers

Fly-By AttackStandard Action to attackAny, may change directionUp to speed, may change directionDirect mount (free), Full Mounted Attack (Cavalier)Full Attack, no bonus/multipliers

Move + Standard ActionStandard Action to attackAny, may change directionNoneDirect mount (free), Full Mounted Attack (Cavalier)Full Attack, no bonus/multipliers

Dive Attack/Charge (self-directed)Pounce, x2 damageStraight line, minimum 30', must descend 10'NoneDelay, Full AttackFull Attack, no bonus/multipliers

[Melcar]

Yes, I think this works. You are directing your mount to charge when you tell it to execute a Dive Attack or a Power Dive. The rider gets a single melee attack in the middle of the mount's movement, and you get the +2 attack bonus and the damage multipliers for charging.



Mount's ActionsMount's AttacksMount's Movement Before AttackMount's Movement After AttackRider's ActionsRider's Attacks

Dive Attack/ChargePounce, x2 damageStraight line, minimum 30', must descend 10'NoneDirect mount (free), Standard/Readied Action to attack, move is unusedSingle melee attack, +2 bonus, charge multipliers

Ride-By AttackIf target within reach, Pounce, x2 damage. Otherwise, none.Straight line, must move at least 10'Up to double speed, must be straight lineDirect mount (free), Standard/Readied Action to attack, move is unusedSingle melee attack, +2 bonus, charge multipliers

Power Dive/Fell SwoopSingle attack with both claws, x2 damageMust begin at least 50' above targetUp to double speed, may change directionDirect mount (free), Standard/Readied Action to attack, move is unusedSingle melee attack, +2 bonus, charge multipliers

Fly-By AttackStandard Action to attackAny, may change directionUp to speed, may change directionDirect mount (free), Full Mounted Attack (Cavalier)Full Attack, no bonus/multipliers

Move + Standard ActionStandard Action to attackAny, may change directionNoneDirect mount (free), Full Mounted Attack (Cavalier)Full Attack, no bonus/multipliers

Dive Attack/Charge (self-directed)Pounce, x2 damageStraight line, minimum 30', must descend 10'NoneDelay, Full AttackFull Attack, no bonus/multipliers



As I have mentioned in other threads. Thank you for the great responses.

I just want to confirm something here.

Would it be correctly understood that if I command my mount to dive ( do dive attack) and I “activate” ride-by attack, my mount would get a full round attack, plus two rakes attacks, which dealt double damage on all attacks – and be allowed to move passed the enemy (as per ride-by attack), while at the same time allowing me (the rider) to also get an attack which would also be a charge, which because of unending charge, would be quintuple damage with a lance (sextuple with a valorous lance)?

I ask again, because there seem to be a difference between your written response and the very nice table you have made.

Thanks again!

[Darrin]

Would it be correctly understood that if I command my mount to dive ( do dive attack) and I “activate” ride-by attack, my mount would get a full round attack, plus two rakes attacks, which dealt double damage on all attacks – and be allowed to move passed the enemy (as per ride-by attack), while at the same time allowing me (the rider) to also get an attack which would also be a charge, which because of unending charge, would be quintuple damage with a lance (sextuple with a valorous lance)?

I ask again, because there seem to be a difference between your written response and the very nice table you have made.


The problem with Ride-By Attack is the griffon can only attack at the end of the charge, after it has finished moving. It still gets to Pounce and still gets double damage on a Dive Attack, but only if its opponent is still within its reach. There is nothing in the text of Ride-By Attack that allows the mount to attack during the middle of its movement. However, the whole point of Ride-By Attack is to move the mount and rider out of melee range of the target, so stopping the mount's movement close enough to allow it to attack sort of defeats the purpose of trying to use Ride-By Attack in the first place. Unfortunately, the designers don't seem to be aware that the mount even gets an attack at all, as they don't even mention it in the text for Ride-By Attack.

As I've mentioned before, Ride-By Attack in particular (and the mounted combat rules as a whole) are dysfunctional as written. You have to introduce a couple house rules to make it work as intended.