Antipaladin or Ex-Paladin?

[Mister Loorg]

I'm currently running a Pathfinder game over Skype. The four characters (Catfolk Rogue, Gnome Summoner, Undine Ranger and Human Alchemist) are going to the hometown of one of the characters (the Rogue). The Rogue had a childhood friend who had grown up to become a Paladin, but was then turned evil by a Necromancer.

I'm planning on this childhood friend to return soon as a villain, but I'd like advice on whether or not he should be an Antipaladin or an Ex-Paladin. If he is to be an Ex-Paladin, should I raise his levels above the party (level 2) so that he can hold his own in a fight against them, or is that not necessary? Any input would be appreciated!

[InvisibleBison]

When did this guy turn evil? If he became evil after training to be a paladin, he'd be an ex-paladin; if he became evil before training to be a paladin, he'd be an antipaladin.

[Coidzor]

Ex-Paladin is a transitional state between Paladin, Blackguard, Antipaladin, and Corpse. Almost no one stays an Ex-Paladin or Fallen Paladin.

[Mister Loorg]

When did this guy turn evil? If he became evil after training to be a paladin, he'd be an ex-paladin; if he became evil before training to be a paladin, he'd be an antipaladin.
He became evil after training to be a Paladin.


Ex-Paladin is a transitional state between Paladin, Blackguard, Antipaladin, and Corpse. Almost no one stays an Ex-Paladin or Fallen Paladin.
Okay, that makes sense. The thing is that there isn't a set time between him becoming an Ex-Paladin and changing to an Antipaladin. So I'm free to make him either one.

What I'd like to ask is, what would you guys recommend he be from both a story and gameplay standpoint? From a story standpoint, would you find it more interesting for him to have become an Antipaladin or be an Ex-Paladin that is, perhaps, aspiring to be an Antipaladin?

From a gameplay standpoint, if he were to be an Ex-Paladin, should I raise his level above the average party level to make him less of a pushover?

[Talakeal]

An ex-paladin is basically an npx class and should be treated accordingly for balance purposes.

From a power gaming perpesctive not becoming a blackguard makes no sense, but from an RP perspective the world should be full of ex paladins, people who couldnt cut it as a paladin but dont actually have a strong enough commitment to evil to become a blackguard.

[RazorChain]

He became evil after training to be a Paladin.


Okay, that makes sense. The thing is that there isn't a set time between him becoming an Ex-Paladin and changing to an Antipaladin. So I'm free to make him either one.

What I'd like to ask is, what would you guys recommend he be from both a story and gameplay standpoint? From a story standpoint, would you find it more interesting for him to have become an Antipaladin or be an Ex-Paladin that is, perhaps, aspiring to be an Antipaladin?

From a gameplay standpoint, if he were to be an Ex-Paladin, should I raise his level above the average party level to make him less of a pushover?



First off don't spend this guy like the rest of the nameless villains the party faces. This is an friend....a friend that offers the PC to join the dark side before they become enemies. Make him much stronger so if the party attacks him he can spank them just to show them the power of the dark side.

Heck maybe he doesn't even become an enemy...just an evil friend.....I mean is the whole party good?

[Psyren]

Your plan is for this guy to fight the party, right? Why do you think an Ex-Paladin would be a challenging or fun encounter?

[Hawkstar]

From a gameplay standpoint, if he were to be an Ex-Paladin, should I raise his level above the average party level to make him less of a pushover?

Even if he's not an ex-Paladin, you should raise his level above the average party level if you don't want him to be a pushover.

[Winter_Wolf]

Well let me ask this: is there hope for redemption, or has the npc really embraced evil? If he's embraced evil, does he still have fond memories of his friend or has he decided that the past is in the past and should stay there. Do you think it's even remotely likely the player characters won't attempt to straight up murder him upon contact? If he's beyond hope and there's mutual hatred, might as well make him an anti paladin. Is an ex-paladin still just a fighter without the feats in PF?

[TheFamilarRaven]

@Winter_Wolf: Ex-paladin's are worse that that, since fighters get things other than feats in PF.

Anti-Paladin works great if you wanna make him a villain. Also, What's the issue with the transformation time? I mean, on the anti-paladin page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/antipaladin) there's even a little box that explains how ex-paladins can trade all of their paladin levels for anti-paladin levels on a 1:1 basis.

So theres not much reason for an ex-paladin, as they're pretty much on par with the warrior NPC class and the time for transformation is not as long as you think.

[Psyren]

Is an ex-paladin still just a fighter without the feats in PF?

Yep - you lose all class features except proficiencies.



So theres not much reason for an ex-paladin, as they're pretty much on par with the warrior NPC class and the time for transformation is not as long as you think.

Well, he might not be all the way to CE yet. Obviously wanting and trying to be an AP will get him there, but trying to convert before the alignment is in place will just result in him falling again.

[Coidzor]

I mean, there is ample room out there for LE antipaladins, so it's not like CE is a strict requirement unless that's how OP wants to play it.

Necromancers aren't all CE, certainly, so there's only that peer pressure if he's written himself into a corner.

[TheFamilarRaven]

Well, he might not be all the way to CE yet. Obviously wanting and trying to be an AP will get him there, but trying to convert before the alignment is in place will just result in him falling again.


Well, according to the OP, he "...was turned evil by a necromancer". The past tense indicates this character is fully evil. Is he CE? Maybe? Doesn't matter, he could be LE, anti-paladins have an archetype that allows for them to be LE. Alignment shouldn't matter because in this case because we're weighing the viability of ex-paladin against the viability of AP as an appropriate party villain/encounter. Since a necromancer is involved it is likely they possessed the knowledge to perform the Dark Ritualtm needed to trade pally levels for anti-pally levels.


Any input would be appreciated!


As Hawkster said, any creature that is seriously expected to challenge a party should at minimum be the same level as the party. Due to how action economy works in PF though, the party would absolutely wreck this anti-paladin if they encountered him solo. So making him 1-2 levels higher and giving him a few lower level buddies to help him out would make for a decent encounter. Or have him be encountered as part of the necromancer fight.

Alternatively, you could make said villain an ex-pally trying to become an anti-pally as others have said. Make it point where the PC's can try to redeem him/stop him from going down the Dark Pathtm. Success means they get an ally to help them against the necromancer, failure means he returns as an enemy.