PDA

View Full Version : D&D 3.x Other Familicide but just for undead and their spawns -- spell level?



Malimar
2016-11-01, 09:09 PM
I'm contemplating, for "my setting is at risk of wightpocalypse and I want it to be solvable" purposes, a spell that would target an undead creature with an effect where they must make a save (probably Will, but Fort might be better because wights have worse Fort than Will) or be destroyed, and if the target is destroyed then all spawn created by the target must make a save or be destroyed, and all spawn created by any spawn that are destroyed must make a save or be destroyed, and so on, continuing to iterate until every descendant of the target is dead, made their save, or has an ancestor that made their save.

Alternately, it could be restricted only to spawn currently controlled by the target (and spawn currently controlled by those spawn, and so on). This would make it less effective against vampires, who have a control limit, but still fully effective against wights, who do not.

What level would such a spell be? I'm assuming somewhere upwards of 7th. 8th? Would it have to be as high as 9th? What could I alter to make this spell as low-level as possible (so my generally low-to-medium-level PCs can potentially actually access it, even if only in scroll form) while still allowing a PC to potentially wipe out some or all of the wightpocalypse if they manage to locate Patient Zero?

Alternately, would a metamagic feat that goes "if used on undead, this spell also affects all the undead's spawns, and all the spawns' spawns, and so on" be more feasible? Heal with such a metamagic applied would do the job, but the PCs would have to actually invest in the metamagic feat, which would probably put it more out of reach than just a spell that they could buy a scroll of. Still, what spell level modifier would such a metamagic have?

Jormengand
2016-11-01, 09:22 PM
It would probably be the same level as other kill spells. "Only works on undead" is a specfic enough restriction and "Also kills all their spawn" is a limited enough rider that it doesn't make much difference either way. Maybe bump it up one level, but it really isn't necessary.

Malimar
2016-11-01, 09:42 PM
It would probably be the same level as other kill spells. "Only works on undead" is a specfic enough restriction and "Also kills all their spawn" is a limited enough rider that it doesn't make much difference either way. Maybe bump it up one level, but it really isn't necessary.

Flesh to stone, harm, and heal are 6, finger of death and heal if you're a druid are 7. Baleful polymorph is 5 and phantasmal killer is 4, but those both allow 2 saves. Single-target dismissal is 4 or 5 and multi-target banishment is 6 or 7, and both work on a comparable subset of creatures (most campaigns are probably likely to encounter similar numbers of undead and extraplanar creatures -- at least, mine is). Wail of the banshee is 9th and targets a comparable (or potentially fewer) number of creatures. Blasphemy and its ilk are 7, but only kill if targets are HD=CL-10.

So you're saying, like... 6 or 7?

I'm probably comfortable with 7.

Malimar
2016-11-01, 10:25 PM
Maybe I'll make it a Sanctified spell and give it a sacrifice component, that might be worth a 6 instead of 7. I'm thinking something like 1d6 nonlethal damage per undead destroyed. (Which is either piddly damage if the spell isn't very effective because too many high-up undead pass their saves, or instant unconsciousness if the spell is super-effective and lots of undead fail.)

Jormengand
2016-11-01, 11:08 PM
It should be the same level as whatever kill spell otherwise does the same thing. For example, Slay Living is level 5, so if you want a spell where you have to touch the offending undead and they save or die, then make it level 5. Finger of Death is level 7, so make the spell level 7 if you want it to be close ranged. Because the spell is so much more limited in scope, and the special effect will only come up massively situationally, it doesn't need to be any higher.

Malimar
2016-11-01, 11:21 PM
It should be the same level as whatever kill spell otherwise does the same thing. For example, Slay Living is level 5, so if you want a spell where you have to touch the offending undead and they save or die, then make it level 5. Finger of Death is level 7, so make the spell level 7 if you want it to be close ranged. Because the spell is so much more limited in scope, and the special effect will only come up massively situationally, it doesn't need to be any higher.

That makes sense.

Excellent, your input has been very helpful. Thanks!

Knitifine
2016-11-01, 11:41 PM
I would consider this an 'Artifact Spell', since it has the potential to completely remove a species from the world.
So, 10th level.

nikkoli
2016-11-03, 11:12 AM
I think that since it has the cascading effect it should be a 9th level spell, but each generation after the first should have a slightly lower dc, maybe -1 per generation separating the founder from the current target. If it only destroyed the target in a fashion similar to slay living I would agree that it would be 5th and just be slay unliving.
What I see for this spell:

Death in the Family
Level: Sorc/wiz 9, cleric 9
Component: V, S, M (a piece of the body of the target family)
Casting time: 1 hour ( up for debate )
Target: one undead creature
Range: close
Duration: instantaneous
Saving throw: will negates
Spell resistance: yes

As you chant over the shred of this restless families line you call out for their time spent roaming the world to end.

The target creature must make a will save or be instantly destroyed. ANY of its spawn must make a save at a DC 1 less than the original save. This continues down targeting spawns spawns and reducing the DC by 1 for every generation after the first.

Jormengand
2016-11-03, 11:58 AM
The unlikelihood that the target even has any spawn, as well as the intrinsic reduced worth of spells that affect undead compared to those which affect living creatures (1 type instead of 11) means that making it an exceptionally high-level spell is just going to make it near worthless. There's a reason that dominate monster is four levels higher than dominate person, and the reason is that it affects 8 types instead of just 1. Death effects normally affect 11. Familicide affects 12. Death in the Family affects one. For a ninth-level spell that only affects one creature type, that takes an hour to cast, allows a save, and only has a teensy chance to affect a second creature (if you're not facing a vampire or a wight, forget it and use Undeath to Death instead, because that will affect more than one creature). Further, another problem with Familicide effects in general is that they're pointless. Why do you want to kill a bunch of black dragons and their relatives?

So in total, you have a ninth-level spell which you will never finish casting, rarely find a target it works on, never find a target that the special effect that makes that spell unique will work on, and even if you do, it allows a save which is the undead type's only high save, not to mention that vampire spawn and wights both have a wisdom score equal to the highest possible wisdom of any ordinary human, oh and the save becomes basically impossible to fail after a few generations.

Malimar
2016-11-03, 12:22 PM
I can see Jormengand's argument that it's an extremely niche spell, but I can also see Knitifine's and Nikkoli's arguments that within that niche it's an extremely powerful effect.

This is what I'm leaning towards:

Evocation [Good]
Level: Sanctified 6
Components: V, S, Sacrifice
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Touch
Target: Undead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You invoke ancient and terrible powers hostile to the undead to call down destruction upon your target's entire twisted, misbegotten lineage.

The target must succeed at a Will save or immediately be destroyed.

If the target is destroyed, all spawn created by the target with a Create Spawn ability must also succeed at Will saves or immediately be destroyed.

For each spawn destroyed, all spawn created by that spawn must succeed at Will saves or immediately be destroyed, and so on until all descendants of the original target have been destroyed, succeeded at Will saves, or had an ancestor succeed at their Will save.

Sacrifice: 1d6 nonlethal damage per creature destroyed by the spell
I think this sacrifice component is a passing clever balancer: if you use it on somebody that has no spawns, or too many creatures high up in the hierarchy pass their saves, you're taking piddly nonlethal damage; if you use it on the Wight King who wightified an entire village and he and most of his spawns fail, you could take up to like 400d6 nonlethal damage, which is more than enough to keep you down until you die of thirst or starvation (assuming there are thirst or starvation rules to be found somewhere).

The main problem with that is that refreshment is a spell that exists and removes all nonlethal damage, so if you go in with an ally prepared to cast refreshment, the sacrifice is not dangerous.

Jormengand
2016-11-03, 12:33 PM
I think that's fine. If you go in prepared to mitigate the backlash of your exceptionally niche, difficult to use spell, to the point of getting another character to come in and bail you out, then being able to stop said backlash seems fair enough.

Deepbluediver
2016-11-04, 03:05 PM
I'm a little confused- unlike dragons and humans, most undead can't breed unless you're using a significantly different setting than the one I'm used to, so I can't see this spreading very far. It sounds like it's good for dealing with a pack of vampires but I'm struggling to come up with another sort of undead it would apply well to. Also, how does in interact with members of that undead's family who are still living? For example if you've got the patriarch of a family who's a Lich and you cast this spell on him, will it target any non-undead progeny he sired before his ascension to Lichdom? Does it jump gaps, such as a Lich grandfather but with a living son and an undead grandson?

Any kill-spell without limits on the number of targets or range (does it cross planar boundaries?) feels pretty much like Epic magic to me, but in reality I feel like undead would possibly be the (second) most limited creature-type you could pick for anything bloodline-connection related. (only constructs would be tougher to link IMO)


Edit: I'm basing these questions on D&D 3.5 because that's what edition the comic was using, but if this is intended for something else where my concerns wouldn't apply, please let me know.

Malimar
2016-11-04, 03:18 PM
I'm a little confused- unlike dragons and humans, most undead can't breed unless you're using a significantly different setting than the one I'm used to, so I can't see this spreading very far. It sounds like it's good for dealing with a pack of vampires but I'm struggling to come up with another sort of undead it would apply well to. Also, how does in interact with members of that undead's family who are still living? For example if you've got the patriarch of a family who's a Lich and you cast this spell on him, will it target any non-undead progeny he sired before his ascension to Lichdom? Does it jump gaps, such as a Lich grandfather but with a living son and an undead grandson?

Any kill-spell without limits on the number of targets or range (does it cross planar boundaries?) feels pretty much like Epic magic to me, but in reality I feel like undead would possibly be the (second) most limited creature-type you could pick for anything bloodline-connection related. (only constructs would be tougher to link IMO)


Edit: I'm basing these questions on D&D 3.5 because that's what edition the comic was using, but if this is intended for something else where my concerns wouldn't apply, please let me know.

Biological children are not spawn created by a Create Spawn ability.

Are you not familiar with the concept of the wightpocalypse, where wights (or another creature with a Create Spawn ability) reproduce and populate the world by killing everybody?


Create Spawn (Su)
Any humanoid slain by a wight becomes a wight in 1d4 rounds. Spawn are under the command of the wight that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.

Create Spawn (Su)
Any humanoid reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow becomes a shadow under the control of its killer within 1d4 rounds.

Create Spawn (Su)
A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a vampire’s energy drain rises as a vampire spawn 1d4 days after burial.

If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD. In either case, the new vampire or spawn is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. At any given time a vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vampires or vampire spawn. A vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a master vampire can control a number of lesser vampires in this fashion. A vampire may voluntarily free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.

Create Spawn (Su)
Any humanoid slain by a wraith becomes a wraith in 1d4 rounds. Its body remains intact and inanimate, but its spirit is torn free from its corpse and transformed. Spawn are under the command of the wraith that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.

Create Spawn (Su)
Any humanoid slain by a spectre becomes a spectre in 1d4 rounds. Spawn are under the command of the spectre that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.

Create Spawn (Su)
Creatures killed by a mohrg rise after 1d4 days as zombies under the morhg’s control. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.

Create Spawn (Su)
Any humanoid slain by a shadow of the void becomes a winterwight in 1d4 rounds. Winterwights are under the command of the shadow of the void that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life, though they do possess general knowledge of the slain creature. This knowledge is used for evil purposes, if possible.

Create Spawn (Su)
Any humanoid slain by a shape of fire becomes a lavawight in 1d4 rounds. Lavawights are under the command of the shape of fire that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.

Deepbluediver
2016-11-04, 03:28 PM
Biological children are not spawn created by a Create Spawn ability.

Are you not familiar with the concept of the wightpocalypse, where wights (or another creature with a Create Spawn ability) reproduce and populate the world by killing everybody?
I've heard of it, I just wasn't sure how widespread the ability was, or if this a common concern. The monster finder (http://monsterfinder.dndrunde.de/results.php?id=346910797&skip=0) lists 134 different undead, and while extensive you've only names about half a dozen that can seem to cause a problem that this spell would address. Whereas, presumably every living creature can breed and create the possibility of a widespread "Familicide" effect.

I stand by my previous statement that even if not very commonly used, the spell still feels like it should be Epic IMO. If one spell that could end the world would be epic, shouldn't a spell that can save the world be the same? At the very least I think it should be pushing 9th level, not 6th.

If you want it to be a spell that your players use on a daily basis, just limit it's reach (both in terms of creatures it can effect and the physical distance it can cross).

awa
2016-11-04, 03:45 PM
Yes it’s a niche spell but that is what scrolls are for being niche does not make it weak and shouldn’t lower its level very much. Somethings that could balance it is to allow it to kill spawn below a certain HD freely and more powerful undead are just weakened. The example of finger of death is flawed because this is a multi target spell with tremendous range that ignores line of sight, and the fact that its specialized is counteracted by the fact that you are bypassing an immunity.

Malimar
2016-11-04, 04:15 PM
I've heard of it, I just wasn't sure how widespread the ability was, or if this a common concern. The monster finder (http://monsterfinder.dndrunde.de/results.php?id=346910797&skip=0) lists 134 different undead, and while extensive you've only names about half a dozen that can seem to cause a problem that this spell would address. Whereas, presumably every living creature can breed and create the possibility of a widespread "Familicide" effect.

It's a definite imminent concern in my setting, and that's what's relevant. (Honestly, in any setting where wights/wraiths/shadows/spectres exist and high-level adventurers aren't super-common to beat down infestations before they start, the fact that a wight/wraith/shadow/spectrepocalypse hasn't already happened is a bit of a plot hole.)


If you want it to be a spell that your players use on a daily basis, just limit it's reach (both in terms of creatures it can effect and the physical distance it can cross).

It doesn't need to be a spell that players use on a daily basis, it just needs to be castable a couple of times -- enough to clear up one big wight infestation. Which means not epic. Ninth may be buyable in scroll form, albeit a bit of an investment for a disposable.

That said, I think I will slap a range limit on it. A mile is plenty big enough; even Long would probably be fine.

Deepbluediver
2016-11-04, 04:36 PM
It's a definite imminent concern in my setting, and that's what's relevant. (Honestly, in any setting where wights/wraiths/shadows/spectres exist and high-level adventurers aren't super-common to beat down infestations before they start, the fact that a wight/wraith/shadow/spectrepocalypse hasn't already happened is a bit of a plot hole.)
What exactly constitutes "high level" in your setting? Because a 6th level spell is castable by a Level 11 Wizard, which put it solidly as "mid level" in mine.


It doesn't need to be a spell that players use on a daily basis, it just needs to be castable a couple of times -- enough to clear up one big wight infestation. Which means not epic. Ninth may be buyable in scroll form, albeit a bit of an investment for a disposable.
I didn't mean that they will actually be casting it every day, just that it's not a big deal when then do. It strikes me that this is a very generic "solve problem" button type of spell. Once your players have access to it, Wightpocalypse is probably never going to be a major concern ever again. At most it becomes a step along the way to solving another issue, such as "who (or what) is originating the first wight? that's the thing we need to find and stop".

Malimar
2016-11-04, 05:21 PM
What exactly constitutes "high level" in your setting? Because a 6th level spell is castable by a Level 11 Wizard, which put it solidly as "mid level" in mine.

In my setting, 11th level is considered "epic". I can count on zero hands the number of PCs who have reached level 11. (Well, okay, one PC became level 11, but it was only after he became an NPC.)

But I meant without this spell, and in a regular setting (not a low-level setting like mine), you need lots of adventurers high enough level to find and defeat all wights, wraiths, spectres, and shadows before they spawn any spawn. Which means a bunch of level 11 parties if Dread Wraiths are in the picture. Not a problem for Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk, yes a problem for Eberron.

My setting needs this spell to exist because it's a low-level setting like Eberron and doesn't have a buttload of level 11 adventurers wandering around. (One of my players pointed out that the existence of this spell might also work as a deterrent -- undead know that if they create too many spawns, people will come knocking with genocide of the dead and wipe out their whole family, so they need to keep things on the down-low.)

Deepbluediver
2016-11-04, 05:27 PM
In my setting, 11th level is considered "epic". I can count on zero hands the number of PCs who have reached level 11. (Well, okay, one PC became level 11, but it was only after he became an NPC.)

But I meant without this spell, and in a regular setting (not a low-level setting like mine), you need lots of adventurers high enough level to find and defeat all wights, wraiths, spectres, and shadows before they spawn any spawn. Which means a bunch of level 11 parties if Dread Wraiths are in the picture. Not a problem for Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk, yes a problem for Eberron.

My setting needs this spell to exist because it's a low-level setting like Eberron and doesn't have a buttload of level 11 adventurers wandering around. (One of my players pointed out that the existence of this spell might also work as a deterrent -- undead know that if they create too many spawns, people will come knocking with genocide of the dead and wipe out their whole family, so they need to keep things on the down-low.)
If that's the case, then it seems like a single party of adventurers might not be enough to keep things in check either.

If you're having problems with your setting, then a one-button "push to fix problem" spell wouldn't be my preferred way of doing things. There are issues with logistics, issues with use and/or knowledge of said spell, and potentially the desire for a similar fix for any problem. On the whole it just feels inelegant- I'd rather change the setting or the creatures.

Malimar
2016-11-04, 05:33 PM
If that's the case, then it seems like a single party of adventurers might not be enough to keep things in check either.

If you're having problems with your setting, then a one-button "push to fix problem" spell wouldn't be my preferred way of doing things. There are issues with logistics, issues with use and/or knowledge of said spell, and potentially the desire for a similar fix for any problem. On the whole it just feels inelegant- I'd rather change the setting or the creatures.

It's less a problem with the setting and more a problem with the intersection of the setting and gameplay. To wit: a party of sufficient level can just fight 400 wights one at a time until they're exterminated, but that sounds pretty tedious. Fighting their way to the Wight King and using a spell on him, on the other hand, could plausibly be a fun time.

Deepbluediver
2016-11-04, 06:21 PM
It's less a problem with the setting and more a problem with the intersection of the setting and gameplay. To wit: a party of sufficient level can just fight 400 wights one at a time until they're exterminated, but that sounds pretty tedious. Fighting their way to the Wight King and using a spell on him, on the other hand, could plausibly be a fun time.
Ok, but if you're designing this ability with a specific objective for a specific campaign in mind, why do you care about the spell level, or why does it need to be a spell at all? Why not just have it be a custom magic item? That way your player don't have to worry about wasting a spell-slot (either knowing or preparing it) if it's not going to be used, and if anyone can use the item it means that the spellcasters aren't the sole-source of problem solving.

Malimar
2016-11-04, 08:29 PM
Ok, but if you're designing this ability with a specific objective for a specific campaign in mind, why do you care about the spell level, or why does it need to be a spell at all? Why not just have it be a custom magic item? That way your player don't have to worry about wasting a spell-slot (either knowing or preparing it) if it's not going to be used, and if anyone can use the item it means that the spellcasters aren't the sole-source of problem solving.

That's... actually a really good idea.

Deepbluediver
2016-11-04, 09:11 PM
That's... actually a really good idea.
Yeah, I think it will neatly solve most of your issues.

You've got 2 options I as far as I see it:

(1) There is one super-magical artifact that does this. It's the Macguffin, to solve the problem you need to get the Macguffin, everyone wants the Macguffin, etc.

(2) The church of Pelor (or whatever the equivalent in your setting is) produces charms that have this effect. But only the high priest has the divine juju necessary to make them and it still takes time and resources, plus they expire (they are imbued with a sliver of Pelor's essence, which is why they break all kinds of normal magic rules, but divinity can't be constrained by mortal means and it slowly leaks out, which is why they don't just stockpile these). So the church only bothers producing them when there's a real crisis-level situation going on, or if someone makes a suitable donation.


Feel free to take whatever elements you feel are most appropriate for your story.