What characterizes low wisdom?

[WarKitty]

I'm having trouble disentangling the mental stats from each other. I have a character with a 16 int, 8 wis, and 22 cha. And enough ranks in sense motive to have a decent idea of what other people are up to. So I'm trying to think of how to play low wisdom that doesn't compromise other stats.

[CharonsHelper]

Remember - an 8 isn't that low. It's just slightly below average. If you want to worry about it, you could occasionally lose track of what's going on because you're lost in thought or speak before thinking it through (but can get people to laugh it off), but don't overdo it.

[exelsisxax]

Intelligence refers to cognitive capabilities, generally in a purely logical manner. Your 16 INT might be something like ability to quickly perform mental arithmetic, an expansive vocabulary, and general problem solving situations.

Wisdom is more of a 'common sense' sort of thing, situational awareness, and social mores. 8 is basically normal, but with higher-than-average faux pas rate, missing the point of something being told to you, or priority failure.

20 INT is the ability to invent a device for catching fireballs mid-flight. WIS 7 is for recognizing that you need to duck right now and invent the thing later.

[Jay R]

High intelligence / low wisdom is Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang Theory. Very intelligent, but misunderstanding things and making poor choices.

Intelligence is figuring out the puzzle needed to open the door.
Wisdom is correctly deciding if it's safe to open it.
Charisma is convincing somebody else to open it for you.

[WarKitty]

Ok, new rule: no tv references, as I don't watch TV. So references to TV characters almost certainly aren't going to mean anything to me.

[Extra Anchovies]

Here's something I wrote about Wisdom a few months back which may be helpful:

I like to think of Wisdom as the stat that governs changing your own ideas about the world. Low-Wisdom characters tend not to question what they already believe to be true; they may hold to ideas even in the face of directly contrary information. Characters with high Wisdom scores don't necessarily change their entire worldview from day to day, but the notions they've developed about the world are supported by deep, solid foundations that they truly believe (not just merely accept), and they're better able to understand the perspectives of others.

In that thread I also came up with what I think is a fairly solid set of capsule definitions for the mental stats. Intelligence is your ability to comprehend, Wisdom is your ability to analyze (in the critical-thinking sense), and Charisma is your ability to communicate. Differentiating them should aid in figuring out how to roleplay your character.

[DarkSoul]

The simplest explanation for how I think of Intelligence vs. Wisdom is "book smart" versus "street smart/common sense". You know that throwing a string of firecrackers out your car window is going to attract a lot of attention. Hopefully you're wise enough not to do it in the middle of a crime-ridden ghetto.

Regarding the thread title's question I would say a low wisdom character acts without, or before, thinking about the consequences of their actions.

16 Int, 8 Wis, 22 Cha would be someone who's extraordinarily attractive and/or charming, considerably more intelligent than average, but doesn't quite think things through before they say or do them. If you ask them what they think of this weather, they could easily start breaking things down from a meteorological standpoint, reading the cloud formations and movements, noting where and how the local druid circle is affecting the next two days' forecast, mentioning that what they see could also have to do with the plane of elemental air's metaphysical distance from the prime... and then stop, flash a brilliant smile and say "I was rambling again, wasn't I?" and you'd probably think the whole episode was rather adorable.

[Mordaedil]

8 as low wisdom. My current wizard has a beautiful 5 (and then a -2 penalty for a 3) wisdom.

How should that be played?

[Zanos]

Wisdom modifies will saves and most sensory related skills.

Someone with lower wisdom is easily to mentally influence, and not as attentive as someone with higher wisdom. I believe an "absent minded professor" is one of the examples give somewhere of a character with high intelligence, but not very good wisdom.

[bookkeeping guy]

From a cultural and human perspective this type of thing happens ALL THE FREAKING Time!

You would be amazed how many people fall into this category around you. I wanted to give some good examples;

1) You're friend knows chemistry, biology, anatomy, but you give him some advise on how to improve his garden, but he rejects it based on he has a Phd and you only have a 4 year degree so you couldn't possibly know something that he doesn't.

2) I have a relative who is a veterinarian. He's a smart guy. he can quote history, wwII history in particular with perfect accuracy, talk about how to help animals get better, do surgery and fix animals...but his son is an alcoholic and into drugs and prostitution. I keep warning him that person shouldn't be allowed to bring his friends home and always the reply comes back he's just going through a phase and not a bad kid just misguised...

3) similar to example 2...brilliant wonderful smart parents will let their kids do anything they want short of murder at home despite being in professional fields. Yet ask them to discipline their own kids and they won't even comprehend the idea.

4) You meet people at work who are brilliant at 'chemistry' but its only limited to helping them to get their chemical fix and for getting them high. They end up ruining their lives as the result and flushing their own life down the toilet.

[DarkEternal]

One of the better comparisons I heard was:

Intelligence is knowing that Frankenstein was the doctor, not the monster. Wisdom is understanding that he was the monster

[Darth Ultron]

Wisdom governs your ability to perceive the world around you. A low-wisdom character would thus be very oblivious, unable to distinguish sarcasm from fact, would be very, very easy to lie to, and would generally be a failure at anything relating to perception. Low wisdom looks more forgetful, weak willed, and unaware than anything. They act naive and romantic... have a little softer view of the world. Have problems recognizing moral gray, and going out of their comfort zones in terms of actions.

Absent-minded professor is one high INT low WIS archetype. This is the person who is brilliant but struggles in the real world because of lack of savvy or common sense. The kind of person about whom people say,"He's so smart, I can't believe he puts his pants on backwards." Or perhaps the intellectual who is oblivious to the world around him because his head is always buried in a book. Or perhaps someone who is mildly or moderately autistic, extremely intelligent but imperceptive because he is lives in his own insular world. Another might be an arrogant intellectual who is oblivious to the world around him because he is so self-absorbed and caught up in his feelings of superiority. Religious or political fanatic is another possibility, someone highly intelligent but extremely pig-headed and narrow-minded, too small-minded to see any points of view but his own.

If you're asking how a low wisdom character would act? Well, that would be characterized by things like poor impulse control, regularly taking stupid and/or unnecessary risks, having trouble learning from experience ("The exact same thing has happened the last five times I pushed this button, I wonder what'll happen THIS time!") short attention span, being easily suckered or talked into things, and general obliviousness, among a few other things.

[Jay R]

Ok, new rule: no tv references, as I don't watch TV. So references to TV characters almost certainly aren't going to mean anything to me.

That's why I went ahead and explained it. I repeat: "Very intelligent, but misunderstanding things and making poor choices."

[WarKitty]

That's why I went ahead and explained it. I repeat: "Very intelligent, but misunderstanding things and making poor choices."

That's fair enough. That was more a suggestion for future posters - TV examples don't work on me all that well.

[denthor]

High Intel I am right this very intricate plan will work

Low wisdom You forgot that others are not as smart as you. The plan fails with some success. But became very dangerous.

High charisma they accept that the plan did not not work because they screwed up. The plan was valid. You retain party leadership. You should not?

[WarKitty]

Ok so a bit of a follow-up. I have a pretty decent sense motive check, thanks to kind of oozing skill points. So I kind of want to play up the idea that he can read people pretty well, but it's practiced rather than natural. Any suggestions?

[Red Fel]

Ok so a bit of a follow-up. I have a pretty decent sense motive check, thanks to kind of oozing skill points. So I kind of want to play up the idea that he can read people pretty well, but it's practiced rather than natural. Any suggestions?

Approach it academically. Read people piece by piece.

"Okay, your eyebrow is twitching again... You're angry, aren't you?"

"Sour facial expression, monotone voice, content of statement is ridiculous... That's sarcasm! I picked up sarcasm!"

The idea of someone who practices reading people, as opposed to one who finds it natural, is that the former has to do it piecemeal, learning what traits and actions are common across groups, and which ones are unique to individuals, and parsing them from one moment to the next. A natural reader might not be able to tell you, for example, why they know a person is lying - they just know. A practiced reader might be able to tell you that "There are over 10,000 micro-expressions in the human face that can betray emotion," or "You hold your breath every time you bluff a hand," or "You're wrinkling your forehead again; why do you always wrinkle your forehead when I have a brilliant plan?" They see it in steps.

Do that.

[GrayDeath]

I'm having trouble disentangling the mental stats from each other. I have a character with a 16 int, 8 wis, and 22 cha. And enough ranks in sense motive to have a decent idea of what other people are up to. So I'm trying to think of how to play low wisdom that doesn't compromise other stats.

If you read (as you do not watch TV I simply think you have too ^^) read the name of the windand the wise mens fear, ergo kingkiller chronicles

I would rate Kvothe as somewhere around 20 to 22 Int, 18 to 20 Cha and at around 8 Wis, with a big Flaw regarding Women and Hubris added to the pot. ^^

Otherwise the other posts above explain it well enough.

[WarKitty]

If you read (as you do not watch TV I simply think you have too ^^) read the Kingkiller Chronicles.

I would rate Kvothe as somewhere around 20 to 22 Int, 18 to 20 Cha and at around 8 Wis, with a big Flaw regarding Women and Hubris added to the pot. ^^

Otherwise the other posts above explain it well enough.

Hey, new reading material is always good!

[Ninja_Prawn]

If you read (as you do not watch TV I simply think you have too ^^) read the Kingkiller Chronicles.

I would rate Kvothe as somewhere around 20 to 22 Int, 18 to 20 Cha and at around 8 Wis, with a big Flaw regarding Women and Hubris added to the pot. ^^

Otherwise the other posts above explain it well enough.

I was going to come in and defend Kvothe because he's got such good intuition and solid street smarts, but this is actually a good example. Hubris is what happens when you mix low-to-medium Wisdom with astronomical Charisma. So it's actually a better model for the OP. Bonus points because the intelligence matches too!

Picking fights with people like Hemme, Jakis and Devi definitely shows the interaction between a lack of wisdom and supreme confidence. Kvothe's sense motive fails a few times in the books (notably with the horse trader and he totally misreads Elodin several times), but he's quite perceptive and practical at other times, which is kind of the opposite of the OP.

[WarKitty]

To be fair, my charisma is somewhat item-boosted, so it's not naturally quite that high.

[Luccan]

8 as low wisdom. My current wizard has a beautiful 5 (and then a -2 penalty for a 3) wisdom.

How should that be played?

Wow. At 5, he's so constantly in his own head he usually doesn't notice anything. This happens in the street so he runs into people, but occasionally happens in the dungeon too, running into the back of the fighter when the party stops. He'll poke and prod at a possibly dangerous device, even though he's logically aware of the danger, because his curiosity is greater than his caution.

At 3? *low whistle* "Well yes of course the potion exploded, I wanted to see if it would!... I am aware that it was because I heated it to long, but I'd never seen that particular effect in action... Look the lab was only on fire an hour, I'll try to remember to put up protective spells next time." (forgets to do so, this sort of thing happens all the time). Some of his experiments are a danger at least to himself, but he never takes precautions. He constantly misplaces things, barely notices other people, and is terrible when it comes to social awareness. Past the point where he's bad and knows it, he rarely notices how others feel or if they are lying. He probably has an ego. Assuming he goes out, people who know him give him a wide berth, because he's probably absentmindedly muttering incantations and they know if they stand too close they are likely to wind up hurt or at least embarrassed. Others might avoid him because he's carrying a variety of strange instruments or wearing mismatched or stained clothes, because he just doesn't notice these things most of time.

[stanprollyright]

Kvothe is totally a Bard too.

You'll probably have a lot of "hold my beer" moments. Poor control over emotions, big dramatic outbursts, mood swings. You get distracted easily. You "miss the forest for the trees" a lot. You might get really excited about something and forget to eat and sleep occasionally. You are extremely likely to partake of and abuse mind-altering substances. Your priorities are a bit out of whack. You typically utilize an extraneous number of multisyllabic words when a few small ones will do. You're not very self-aware, but you think you are, so you surprise yourself. You both think and tell people that you don't care what other people think, but you actually care a lot. You think (and tell people) that you're a good judge of character because you can read basic facial expressions, but you're actually really terrible at it and end up mixed in with the wrong people all the time. Conversely, you chronically under-appreciate the good people in your life. With your Sense Motive check you'll catch on that someone is acting strange around you, but your low Wisdom will cause you to jump to the wrong conclusion and act upon it before asking what's wrong.

[GrayDeath]

Kvothe is totally a Bard too.



I`d say hes a Tristalt, first full Bard, second full Truenamer (obviously DC`s dont rise more than skill in his Universe) third prolly 1/3 Artificer, 1/3 Fighter, 1/3 ... comoner?
That Combination alone again declares his Hubris quite loudly, no? ^^

Or at least Gestalt of bard/Fighter with Truenamer/Artificer.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I`d say hes a Tristalt, first full Bard, second full Truenamer (obviously DC`s dont rise more than skill in his Universe) third prolly 1/3 Artificer, 1/3 Fighter, 1/3 ... comoner?
That Combination alone again declares his Hubris quite loudly, no? ^^

Or at least Gestalt of bard/Fighter with Truenamer/Artificer.
Or possibly a bard with an item creation feat and refluffed mandatory verbal components, using Perform (Truename)? There is almost always no reason to gestalt to express a particular character. Fighter, for example, never adds anything to a character concept.

[elonin]

The simplest explanation for how I think of Intelligence vs. Wisdom is "book smart" versus "street smart/common sense". You know that throwing a string of firecrackers out your car window is going to attract a lot of attention. Hopefully you're wise enough not to do it in the middle of a crime-ridden ghetto.

Regarding the thread title's question I would say a low wisdom character acts without, or before, thinking about the consequences of their actions.

16 Int, 8 Wis, 22 Cha would be someone who's extraordinarily attractive and/or charming, considerably more intelligent than average, but doesn't quite think things through before they say or do them. If you ask them what they think of this weather, they could easily start breaking things down from a meteorological standpoint, reading the cloud formations and movements, noting where and how the local druid circle is affecting the next two days' forecast, mentioning that what they see could also have to do with the plane of elemental air's metaphysical distance from the prime... and then stop, flash a brilliant smile and say "I was rambling again, wasn't I?" and you'd probably think the whole episode was rather adorable.

I think i have a disagreement with your interpretation. My understanding is that Intelligence is more like academic learning and being quicker to learn higher concepts. Charisma is akin to force of personality or to some extent likability (not that they aren't also disliked at the same time). Wisdom is more like having an intuition or having a jist for the situation or thinking quickly on their feet.

[Mordaedil]

Wow. At 5, he's so constantly in his own head he usually doesn't notice anything. This happens in the street so he runs into people, but occasionally happens in the dungeon too, running into the back of the fighter when the party stops. He'll poke and prod at a possibly dangerous device, even though he's logically aware of the danger, because his curiosity is greater than his caution.

At 3? *low whistle* "Well yes of course the potion exploded, I wanted to see if it would!... I am aware that it was because I heated it to long, but I'd never seen that particular effect in action... Look the lab was only on fire an hour, I'll try to remember to put up protective spells next time." (forgets to do so, this sort of thing happens all the time). Some of his experiments are a danger at least to himself, but he never takes precautions. He constantly misplaces things, barely notices other people, and is terrible when it comes to social awareness. Past the point where he's bad and knows it, he rarely notices how others feel or if they are lying. He probably has an ego. Assuming he goes out, people who know him give him a wide berth, because he's probably absentmindedly muttering incantations and they know if they stand too close they are likely to wind up hurt or at least embarrassed. Others might avoid him because he's carrying a variety of strange instruments or wearing mismatched or stained clothes, because he just doesn't notice these things most of time.

Thanks a ton, this will be good to bring into the next session. She took Craft Wondrous Item, so I wonder if some of her crafted items might turn out to be cursed as an oversight, so these brooches of shielding would attract magic missiles to the character.

[Sam K]

Some traits associated with low wisdom:

- Abcent minded. This could be not paying attention due to lack of interest (slightly arrogant), or naturally tending to drift away (dreamer).
- Poor impulse control. Goes with emotions, tends to get carried away with the moment, easily tempted.
- Difficult to differ between own opinions and fact ("Cabbages are bad for you, because I don't like the taste!", "This book was horrible because I didn't like it.")
- Tends to view the world in black and white, usually based on personal opinions ("I knew this one paladin who was a bit of a jerk, so all paladins are crapholes").
- Not very aware of surroundings (misses details).

What I tended to do when playing a character with low scores, I would pick one trait for every minus, and try to make those part of my characters personality, adjusting the intensity based on the size of the penalty. So, with wis 8 (-1) your character might mistake his opinions for facts. With wis 6 (-2), the character might think anyone who doesn't agree with him/her is stupid and wrong about most things (a more sever case of mistaking opinions for facts, as well as a tendence to view the world in black and white). So at -1 you have 1 weak traid, on -2 you have 2 intermediate traits.

At higher penalties, some of these traits tend to resemble full blown psychosis :xykon:

[Segev]

Tony Stark is high intelligence and average-to-low wisdom. He is also apparently high-charisma, given his ability to charm people and dominate a room with his presence.

I note that he is "average-to-low" wisdom because, to some extent, having too much int compared to wis can lead to "dumb moves" even though you otherwise aren't foolish.

But high intelligence will let you be inspired with the idea for how to create a world-spanning artificial intelligence network which can fight crime and avert wars. Insufficient wisdom will cause you to try building it because you can before really thinking about whether you should.

Wisdom will help you answer the question, "What could go wrong?" in an honest and accurate fashion. Intelligence will let you answer the question, "How can I do this?" with clever and correct solutions.

[Velaryon]

One of the PCs in my game roleplayed being heavily Wisdom drained similar to being intoxicated - his perceptions were slower, and more importantly his judgment was impaired. He would readily agree to bad ideas that he would never even consider sober at full Wisdom.

Fortunately, the condition was remedied quickly. It would have been interesting to see what a Dread Necromancer would do in that state for a prolonged period of time, but I don't think it's anything his party members would have approved of. :smallbiggrin:

[Neowulf]

I'm having trouble disentangling the mental stats from each other. I have a character with a 16 int, 8 wis, and 22 cha. And enough ranks in sense motive to have a decent idea of what other people are up to. So I'm trying to think of how to play low wisdom that doesn't compromise other stats.

the way I understand it, Charisma's how well you know socialization, Intelligence is how well you know facts, and Wisdom is how good your common sense is

[Segev]

One joking way I've heard it put is: "Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing that it doesn't go into a fruit salad."

[jedipilot24]

One joking way I've heard it put is: "Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing that it doesn't go into a fruit salad."
Charisma is being able to sell a tomato-based fruit salad.
Strength is being able to crush a tomato.
Dexterity is being able to dodge a tomato.
Constitution is being able to eat a bad tomato.

[WarKitty]

Charisma is being able to sell a tomato-based fruit salad.

Salsa. The answer is salsa.

[Grey Watcher]

Thanks a ton, this will be good to bring into the next session. She took Craft Wondrous Item, so I wonder if some of her crafted items might turn out to be cursed as an oversight, so these brooches of shielding would attract magic missiles to the character.

Except it's not that she accidentally makes a Brooch of Magic Missile Attraction; it's that she does so deliberately, spending money, time, and other resources on something that is, in most situations, not just useless but actively counter-productive.