Construct Counters

[kalos72]

I am sure that I read somewhere that there are ways to break an "owners" control over a Construct, turning it lose on the world OR taking it over all together. I cant find the posts again...

I DM a group that has a player this is sure his constructs are invincible. Now at this group level, they are very hard to beat, so I am looking for more sneaky ways to get around it... :)

1. Are there ways to defeat the constructs control dynamic?
2. How do you defend against someone trying to take control over your own construct?

Thanks for your help in advance!

[Vizzerdrix]

I know the Gond cleric prc can use turnning attempts to control them. I thought Id seen a domain that did this as well.

I want to say they are too stupid to not be instantly tricked by illusions, or was it that they wont even try to hit what they cant see.


Edit also grease and marbles ley them right out.

Your bog chaĺlange is any construct with an int score. Illusions may not trick them and they may be smart enough to get out of the area of grease/marbles.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I am sure that I read somewhere that there are ways to break an "owners" control over a Construct, turning it lose on the world OR taking it over all together. I cant find the posts again...

I DM a group that has a player this is sure his constructs are invincible. Now at this group level, they are very hard to beat, so I am looking for more sneaky ways to get around it... :)

1. Are there ways to defeat the constructs control dynamic?
2. How do you defend against someone trying to take control over your own construct?

Thanks for your help in advance!

The Rod of Construct Control (A&EG) allows you to command any construct within 60ft as if you were the creator. Intelligent constructs gain a will save. Nonintelligent constructs do not.
The Warforged domain (Races of? Eberron, not sure of the book) allows you to rebuke and command constructs as a cleric does undead.
The Master's Voice feat from dragon magazine lets you order constructs around if the creator is not around.

The domain can be defended against by Protection from Evil and its variants (since it's an ongoing mind control effect). It's also hard to control any halfway relevant construct with it because you're limited to half your turning level in HD and constructs tend to have high HD for their CR.
The rod and feat both allow will saves.


I DM a group that has a player this is sure his constructs are invincible. Now at this group level, they are very hard to beat, so I am looking for more sneaky ways to get around it... :)
I have to ask how he comes to this conclusion. Constructs have all bad saves and no con score (so their fort saves suck) and nonintelligent versions are too dumb to do anything but run up and smash. They're easily defeated unless you're trapped in a featureless, small room with one or there are intelligent enemies around to herd you in place for them.
Or your players are just too dumb not to get into a slugfest with one, that's also a possibility.:smalltongue:

[hector212121]

Dude, a adamantine/mithril golem is basically invincible. It also has...decent...saves and can probably crush anything.

Also, a savvy player would hit their golem with a alignment protection as construct control probably counts as mind effecting even if it specifically works on constructs.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Proper use of grease is pretty adept at screwing over even epic level golems.

[ExLibrisMortis]

If a construct must be commanded verbally, silence is pretty effective. Grappling and pinning the creator also prevents them from issuing commands.

[hector212121]

Why not just have one or more flying characters with longbows and distant shot snipe them?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Why not just have one or more flying characters with longbows and distant shot snipe them?So long as you're more than 50' away from its space (plus enough room to account for a jump), you should be safe, since that's as far as a construct can throw anything that isn't an actual throwing weapon.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Dude, a adamantine/mithril golem is basically invincible. It also has...decent...saves and can probably crush anything.

Also, a savvy player would hit their golem with a alignment protection as construct control probably counts as mind effecting even if it specifically works on constructs.

Hardly. At the levels where those appear/are affordable a mindless melee brute is not a challenge for anyone. The only thing it'll crush is a PC too dumb not to stand there and let it.
And i'd like to see what you consider decent saves because just from looking at the SRD, things like the CR13(!!!) Iron Golem have saves that give a naked 1st level caster a 50% chance at success. That's not decent.

Now i've seen people utilize stuff like Shadesteel Golems (mostly Tippyverse), but that kind of thing assumes near-unlimited wealth, time to craft and the dragonmag content that lets them get intelligence. And then they're only dangerous because they're fielded in legions. A character built at that level will still crush one without breaking a sweat.

And construct control doesn't count as mind affecting because it doesn't say it does (and constructs are immune). Alignment protection only works against ongoing control anyway, and "giving commands as the creator" is not ongoing. You give a command and then the construct does what dumb, mindless constructs do - it follows its orders. No ongoing control necessary.
Mindless constructs are vulnerable that way, that's why they're cannon fodder.
Intelligent constructs get will saves (but their will saves suck because they're constructs). That's the price you pay for getting neat construct immunities.


So long as you're more than 50' away from its space (plus enough room to account for a jump), you should be safe, since that's as far as a construct can throw anything that isn't an actual throwing weapon.
A mindless construct won't throw anything without an order. If it can't reach you it'll just stand there and wait until the situation changes.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A mindless construct won't throw anything without an order. If it can't reach you it'll just stand there and wait until the situation changes.Unless you know what its master's last instructions were, you can't guarantee that it doesn't have "throw these exploding things at any intruder that is flying and out of your reach" as part of its standing orders.

Just being practically paranoid.

[kalos72]

Again, not looking at the ways to kill the construct, just ways I can interfere with the master control and use him against him.

So with one magic item I can take control over the construct, anyway to counter it? Mind Blank work on these things?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Again, not looking at the ways to kill the construct, just ways I can interfere with the master control and use him against him.

So with one magic item I can take control over the construct, anyway to counter it? Mind Blank work on these things?The rod is not [mind-affecting], and it's questionable as to whether it's "ongoing control." The only way to counter it is given in the item description itself. Also, make sure you have one yourself, so you can counter someone else's rod. You could also awaken your golem and boost its saving throws as high as you can so it at least gets a save. How about an antimagic field area, fueled by an energy transformation field spell? If your golem or other minion has an at-will spell-like ability, it can keep the ETF functioning indefinitely. It helps if your minion is a construct or undead.

[Vizzerdrix]

What about ra,ps and grease traps? Dude will most likely send in his golem first, so send it crashing right back at him

[sleepyphoenixx]

The rod is not [mind-affecting], and it's questionable as to whether it's "ongoing control." The only way to counter it is given in the item description itself. Also, make sure you have one yourself, so you can counter someone else's rod. You could also awaken your golem and boost its saving throws as high as you can so it at least gets a save. How about an antimagic field area, fueled by an energy transformation field spell? If your golem or other minion has an at-will spell-like ability, it can keep the ETF functioning indefinitely. It helps if your minion is a construct or undead.

That's a lot of effort for a 70,000gp item that very few enemies are going to have. And you don't need your own to counter it. It's not ongoing. You can always give counter orders to constructs you're the creator of.
For intelligent constructs it's not too much of a problem - the save DC is fixed at 23. That's not low, but it's doable with some gear. Not something you do for an army of minions, but a construct PC shouldn't have any trouble by the time an enemy can afford one of these.
Not to mention that it's a rod, so it needs to be held to be used. Just disarm it, or cast dispel on it. Or Disintegrate if you don't want it.

It's really more of a gimmick to get around all the golems that those ancient civilizations always leave lying around in their ruins. Not to mention that constructs as an enemy type are fairly rare.
If you can afford to blow the gold that thing costs on a niche item like this you don't have any problems with cr-appropriate constructs anyway.

Really, before you spend a lot of resources on this i'd worry about all the other things that will no-sell your supposedly invincible construct army. Like a pit trap, a wizard with Grease or a Silent Image of a wall.

[kalos72]

What if the construct had a contingent teleport spell on him to port him back to "base" if he was out of control or something.

[sleepyphoenixx]

What if the construct had a contingent teleport spell on him to port him back to "base" if he was out of control or something.

Assuming that the contingency can even discern that? (Remember, the orders are given "as if you were the creator").
I'd say the wizard blew a lot of gold, xp and time on a mook creature, because contingent Teleports aren't cheap (and you'll probably want Greater Teleport anyway or it'll end up wherever).
Assuming it never gets dispelled. Or caught in a teleport blocker of some sort. Or just straight-up destroyed.

Unless your game has infinite gold, xp and time for your players there just comes a point where dumping resources on minions just isn't cost effective.
Constructs are already hideously expensive, especially considering you can get all the benefit of a golem with a suitable corpse and a casting of Animate Dead, for a fraction of the price.
Outfitting all of them with gear and contingent spells? You'll probably want to spend those resources on protective gear and spells for yourself, because your construct being safe doesn't help you if you're dead.

[MisterKaws]

Unless you know what its master's last instructions were, you can't guarantee that it doesn't have "throw these exploding things at any intruder that is flying and out of your reach" as part of its standing orders.

Just being practically paranoid.

Constructs are made by Wizards, and Wizards are always paranoid.