History of the illithids?

[schreier]

Reading about the illithids and duergar history online, I see this:

Races of Faerûn. (Wizards of the Coast), pp. 14–16
"the dwarves of Barakuir largely turned away from the rest of the empire. The foolishness of this action was quickly proved when war broke out with the illithids of Oryndoll, a city that lies deep beneath the Shining Plains, around –8100 DR. Although Shanatar battled the illithids to a stalemate, the enemy’s armies managed to cut off Barakuir from outside reinforcement."

Looks like it is 1489 now .. so that is over 9500 years ago

In Lords of Madness, it says "While the rebellion of the gith did indeed take place in the past—about two thousand years ago, to be precise—their mind flayer masters had themselves just arrived in that era from the unimaginable future."

So they are either 2000 years old, or 9500 years old. Is there an easy way to reconcile these two disparate views? My guess is that both can't be true, since I believe that both FR and the default setting move at the same rate ... just hand wave and ignore? If FR, go FR? Just assume that the 2000 year old story is wrong, and that it is really almost 10k?

[Inevitability]

It's not inconceivable that a small group of illithids could've been sent further back in time to prepare for their race's arrival.

[torrasque666]

Reading about the illithids and duergar history online, I see this:

Races of Faerûn. (Wizards of the Coast), pp. 14–16
"the dwarves of Barakuir largely turned away from the rest of the empire. The foolishness of this action was quickly proved when war broke out with the illithids of Oryndoll, a city that lies deep beneath the Shining Plains, around –8100 DR. Although Shanatar battled the illithids to a stalemate, the enemy’s armies managed to cut off Barakuir from outside reinforcement."

Looks like it is 1489 now .. so that is over 9500 years ago

In Lords of Madness, it says "While the rebellion of the gith did indeed take place in the past—about two thousand years ago, to be precise—their mind flayer masters had themselves just arrived in that era from the unimaginable future."

So they are either 2000 years old, or 9500 years old. Is there an easy way to reconcile these two disparate views? My guess is that both can't be true, since I believe that both FR and the default setting move at the same rate ... just hand wave and ignore? If FR, go FR? Just assume that the 2000 year old story is wrong, and that it is really almost 10k?

Different settings will have different histories. Forgotten Realms would use the Forgotten Realms history. Greyhawk (the default setting) would use the Lords of Madness history.

[Falcon X]

It's important to know that most histories in sourcebooks are considered heresay and local beliefs.
As far as the people in Eberron are concerned, Illithids are XXXX years old. Oerth people have been handed down a different story that puts them at YYYY years old.
People who live in Sigil generally have a more wholistic view, but it's still not 100%. They believe Illithis are ZZZZ years old.

Timelines of Illithids are especially screwy, and if anyone can put together the order of events, that would be great.
If you are able to get your hands on the 2e sourcebook "The Illithiad" it might shed more light on the situation. If I remember, it paints their empire as being far older than 2000 years.

My personal favorite theory of the Illithids, while far from cannon, is found in Magnum Opus's "The Shame of the Baatezu" found here: http://mimir.net/musee/shame.html

[Kelb_Panthera]

So they are either 2000 years old, or 9500 years old. Is there an easy way to reconcile these two disparate views? My guess is that both can't be true, since I believe that both FR and the default setting move at the same rate ... just hand wave and ignore? If FR, go FR? Just assume that the 2000 year old story is wrong, and that it is really almost 10k?

The default setting presumed in LoM (and every other non-setting specific book) is the Greyhawk setting; the world of Oerth. It has its own history that is distinct from that of the FR campaign setting; the world of Abier-Toril. Both histories are -likely- correct in their respective settings. Note, however, that the history of the illithids is, in fact, a history yet unwritten. They are both millenia old and untold eons yet from being created.

Time travel creates a logical nightmare and is only marginally better in use as a narrative tool. Whenver something doesn't make much sense in a time-travel story because of the time travel, I find it's best to just write it off as time-travel shenanigans and put the problem aside as more trouble than it's worth to solve if it's even solvable at all.

[Venger]

I thought there was some kind of canonical thing that illithids were superevolved humans from the far future who had to come back in time because they were out of brains to eat or something. I know this isn't in any 3.5 books. Was it from spelljammer or 2e?

[Darth Ultron]

So they are either 2000 years old, or 9500 years old. Is there an easy way to reconcile these two disparate views? My guess is that both can't be true, since I believe that both FR and the default setting move at the same rate ... just hand wave and ignore? If FR, go FR? Just assume that the 2000 year old story is wrong, and that it is really almost 10k?

The ''2,000 years'' is not ''wrong'' exactly, but it is not right for the Forgotten Realms. The FR timeline, until 4E, uses the 2E information. And the 2E information fits perfectly....

What is known is that the first appearances of the illithid date back to approximately 34,000 years ago and almost 20,000 years of domination and finally near to 16,000 years ago, thralls across the entire empire rebelled under the leadership of two great warriors, Gith and Zerthimon. Within three decades the thralls had succeeded in shattering the Illithid empire, slaughtering millions of illithid and thousands of elder brains, and ending the threat to the Prime. From this thrall race came eventually the githyanki and githzerai.

This puts the rebellion 16,000 years ago....not 2,000.

[DrMotives]

I thought there was some kind of canonical thing that illithids were superevolved humans from the far future who had to come back in time because they were out of brains to eat or something. I know this isn't in any 3.5 books. Was it from spelljammer or 2e?

Nah, the whole far future thing is all 3.5 LoM. The 2e book all about them, the previously mentioned Illithiad by Skip Williams, talks less about origins of them and more about their weird life cycle. They're parasitic amphibians. The neothillid is a portmanteau of the word "neoteny", meaning a tadpole or caterpillar that becomes sexually mature while staying in larval form, with illithid. So the naturally non-parasite form of a mind-flayer is a giant purple worm-like thing. Maybe they're distant cousins to purple worms, I don't know. I like the theory that they're possibly the descendants of purple worms that were contacted by a Far Realms entity. But it does seem to take any relation to humanoids out of the equation.

[Falcon X]

The Illithiad presents a couple of theories backed by scraps of ancient writings on stone tablets and such.
1. They are indeed humans who went to the far realm and were twisted into something monstrous.
2. Just made by Ilsensine. The elven creation myth includes a reference to them as a race made to antagonize all other races. Their birth was the birth of Strife into creation.
3. They arrived from the far realm in some kind of space object. I personally imagin something similar to the Obryth's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obyrith) arrival.

One thing it says is clear: Illithids have existed before recorded history. Sometime during this period they ruled a multiplanar empire.

[BWR]

Nah, the whole far future thing is all 3.5 LoM. The 2e book all about them, the previously mentioned Illithiad by Skip Williams, .

Bruce Cordell