On Summon Monster and SubCreatures.

[Masema]

While perusing the rules of Magyck and Monsters, I came across an uncertain point in the lines of power. While a Ghoul is a Ghoul and Not a Ghast, a Ghast is a Ghast and a Ghoul. When channeling the powers of the Necros, an intelligent Necromancer may, at whim, make a Ghoul or a Ghast, because a Ghast is a Ghoul.

Now there has been a point to this mad rambling of a post and that is this

Can a Summon Monster 3 be used to summon a Nessian Warhound? Due the fact that a Ghast is a Ghoul, a Nessian Warhound is also a Hellhound, and the hellhound is on the list.

[Venger]

While perusing the rules of Magyck and Monsters, I came across an uncertain point in the lines of power. While a Ghoul is a Ghoul and Not a Ghast, a Ghast is a Ghast and a Ghoul. When channeling the powers of the Necros, an intelligent Necromancer may, at whim, make a Ghoul or a Ghast, because a Ghast is a Ghoul.

Now there has been a point to this mad rambling of a post and that is this

Can a Summon Monster 3 be used to summon a Nessian Warhound? Due the fact that a Ghast is a Ghoul, a Nessian Warhound is also a Hellhound, and the hellhound is on the list.

No.

Ghast and ghoul are separate monsters. hell hound and nessian warhounds are also separate monsters. while there are extra and alternate monsters you can put onto the list, nessian warhound is not one you can summon, especially not with sm 3

[Masema]

No.

Ghast and ghoul are separate monsters. hell hound and nessian warhounds are also separate monsters. while there are extra and alternate monsters you can put onto the list, nessian warhound is not one you can summon, especially not with sm 3

But... :smalleek: they're listed in the same block...

[Venger]

But... :smalleek: they're listed in the same block...

no they aren't (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghoul.htm)

[Masema]

So, if they are not the same, what Summon Monster would be capable of summoning a Nessian Warhound?

[Flickerdart]

So, if they are not the same, what Summon Monster would be capable of summoning a Nessian Warhound?

By the rules, none - Nessian warhounds don't appear on any SM list. But if you convinced your DM to add it, as a CR9 creature, it would be appropriate for Summon Monster VIII or maybe VII given that it's not all that strong.

[Venger]

you might also take the fiendish summoning specialist feat if you want to add guys to your summon monster list.

[Crake]

A nessian warhound is literally just a hellhound advanced to 12HD (+4CR), which makes it large (+1CR) and given the elite array (+1CR). It's like a hound archon hero, or a celestial charger unicorn. They're "standard" variants that are just advanced versions of the same base creature. Ghouls and ghasts are different, since they are actually functionally different in various ways, but for the nessian warhound, since summons only summon a standard version of a creature, just like you wouldn't be able to summon an advanced, large wolf, you can't summon a nessian warhound.

[John Longarrow]

Please note: Most DMs will keep the lists just as they are without doing anything fancy based off or "A ghast is a ghoul" type logic. I'd hate to have you face off a against a wizard who's SM V calls up a Bearded Devil who's got 14 levels of crusader based on the logic "Its just a bearded devil, that's on the list. This is just a wizard who keeps calling the same one so it keeps getting XPs".

[Masema]

Please note: Most DMs will keep the lists just as they are without doing anything fancy based off or "A ghast is a ghoul" type logic. I'd hate to have you face off a against a wizard who's SM V calls up a Bearded Devil who's got 14 levels of crusader based on the logic "Its just a bearded devil, that's on the list. This is just a wizard who keeps calling the same one so it keeps getting XPs".
I want to try this. Now.