Dark Knight Returns- opinions by a Batman fan

[Grod_The_Giant]

first, let me say that I am a fan of Batman. I think he's cool and badass and all that...but I'm not a fanboy. I'm realistic about it.

Anyway, with that aside, I'll get on to the point. The other day, I finally read DKR. I though it was pretty good, but some things seemed out of character.

Batman was pretty good, but Robin was a problem. There was just about NO time devoted to her (a pretty ugly girl too, by the way) motivations, and Batman accepted her way too easily. WAY to easily. It went, basically, like this: Oh, there's a nerdy little 12 year old kid in a Robin costume. I'll just kidnap her and put her in the line of fire. Batman was just about as dark as he gets in all other aspects, but he was WAY too trusting here.

Other heroes were worse. When humanity started getting jealous (wtf? I though they were practically worshiping super-heroes), they just up and left? Uh...yeah right. And supervillains went away quietly as well? Sure. Couldn't you at least have had some meta-plague wipe out most super-powered people?

Worst of all was Superman. He just quietly gave up and submitted, rather then fight for the principals he believes in so strongly? If that's Superman, then I'm a dead vole.

I think the character changes in Kingdom Come were far more believable then in DKR.

[Gumbo T]

Sure, the Robin thing is odd. But then, the Robin thing is ALWAYS odd -- whether it's **** or Jason or Tim or Carrie. Using an adolescent to help fight crime is reckless and nonsensical. In DKR, I think Miller uses the idea of the child soldier as one way of making the reader question Batman. Consider what happens to Carrie emotionally during the amusement park scene.

As for Batman accepting Carrie too easily, of course he does. He's delusional when he tells her his name, and even at his best, Miller's Batman is a bit off his rocker.

Not sure why you don't like Carrie's character design. She looks like a normal kid, which seems about right to me.

Superman was rather unsympathetic, but I don't think he was written completely out of character. From his perspective, he gave up personal liberty so that he could continue helping people and saving lives. Perhaps mainstream DCU Supes wouldn't make the same choice, but I didn't have any problem with it in the context of the DKR story. I would certainly agree that Kingdom Come Superman is much more compelling than Dark Knight Returns Superman.

[....]

first, let me say that I am a fan of Batman. I think he's cool and badass and all that...but I'm not a fanboy. I'm realistic about it.

Anyway, with that aside, I'll get on to the point. The other day, I finally read DKR. I though it was pretty good, but some things seemed out of character.

Batman was pretty good, but Robin was a problem. There was just about NO time devoted to her (a pretty ugly girl too, by the way) motivations, and Batman accepted her way too easily. WAY to easily. It went, basically, like this: Oh, there's a nerdy little 12 year old kid in a Robin costume. I'll just kidnap her and put her in the line of fire. Batman was just about as dark as he gets in all other aspects, but he was WAY too trusting here.

Other heroes were worse. When humanity started getting jealous (wtf? I though they were practically worshiping super-heroes), they just up and left? Uh...yeah right. And supervillains went away quietly as well? Sure. Couldn't you at least have had some meta-plague wipe out most super-powered people?

Worst of all was Superman. He just quietly gave up and submitted, rather then fight for the principals he believes in so strongly? If that's Superman, then I'm a dead vole.

I think the character changes in Kingdom Come were far more believable then in DKR.

Read "Dark Knight Strikes Again" and you'll learn what happened to a lot of the other heroes.

Superman is just following the rules, he's defending the planet the only way he knows how. Once again, read DKSA and it makes a little bit more sense.

[sealemon]

Read "Dark Knight Strikes Again" and you'll learn what happened to a lot of the other heroes.

Superman is just following the rules, he's defending the planet the only way he knows how. Once again, read DKSA and it makes a little bit more sense.

Or better yet, don't. If you were somehwat dissaponted in DKR, you'll be suicidal if you read DKSA. I keep trying to convince myself that that story was a bad dream, you know, like Highlander 2, Jurrasic Park 2, or Star Trek 5.

[sealemon]

anyway, to actually answer the OP, I find that given the history of the alternate Earth, that Batman and Supes acted about right. Superman is lawful good personified, and if it came down to selling out to the government for the continued opportunity to save lives, then he'd do it, wheither he liekd it or not. He simply wouln't be able to stand by and do nothing.

I also had no problem with the other heros leaving, as it seemed to be something of a homage to the Justice Society breakup during the McCarthy era.

Yes, Batman is much darker, but so is the world he's in. I thought it was pretty celar that his acceptance of Robin was due to his yearning for the way things used to be, when it was fine to have a wiseass teen sidekick. you see him accept the idea of an army as the story goes on...

Overall, my 2nd favorite Miller story, only behind Ronin.

[Tirian]

Don't read The Dark Knight Strikes Again. It's a trap. :smalleek:

I don't think that there was a lack of motivation for Carrie. Batman was a myth when she was a child, and when he reappeared and saved her life, I think she recognized a call to make the world a better place. No stranger than anyone else who puts on tights to fight crime.

Batman has always seemed to subconsciously realize that he needs a Robin, and is historically too quick to hand out the costume. Me, I think he's only batting .400 in choosing people who are ready for the mantle. And even though Carrie wasn't ready IMO (like you can see from the amusement park), she still got the job done. She's right behind Tim on my list of best Robins.

I also think it's important to keep the historical perspective of TDKR in mind when criticizing the plot. Yes, the disappearance of heroes is not handled well, but it's the first time that a major story imagined such a thing, and I think that Watchmen and Kingdom Come and The Death of Superman and 52 have all had the chance to reflect on TDKR's image of a hero vacuum. (Also, FWIW, keep in mind that Tim Drake was still alive in the normal continuity and that he almost certainly would not have been killed by the Joker had we not seen that empty costume in the display case.)

And Frank Miller hates Superman in particular and the notion that truth, justice, and the American way were the unique heroic ideal in general. Nowadays, the majority of comic readers probably doubt that Superman should be the quarterback of herodom, but back in 1986 it was a pretty daring claim. Again, I think most writers today would give S more credit than to paint him as Ronald Reagan's angel of destruction without questioning his missions, but again this is something that is done better today because Miller originally did it awkwardly. (I do wish that people would stop believing that Batman can beat Superman in a fight, because that continues to be beyond stupid no matter what plot armor you've got.)

Anyway, if you ultimately enjoyed the book, then let me be the first to suggest that you go on to read Watchmen, which is twenty pounds of awesome in a five-pound bag.

[Jerthanis]

Or better yet, don't. If you were somehwat dissaponted in DKR, you'll be suicidal if you read DKSA. I keep trying to convince myself that that story was a bad dream, you know, like Highlander 2, Jurrasic Park 2, or Star Trek 5.


Don't read The Dark Knight Strikes Again. It's a trap. :smalleek:


I really don't see what's so bad about DKSA, sure, it wasn't AS good as Dark Knight Returns, but it's still better than a lot of stuff out there. It doesn't ruin DKR, but carries the story to its conclusion.

Also, if the OP's opinion of DKR was overall positive, but quibbled on the issue of the new Robin, I think DKSA would help that, as I felt it went more into why she did what she did, and expanded upon her character a bit more. Also, she drops being Robin, a role of inherent subservience to the Bat, and donned... a kind of silly looking cat-girl costume. STILL, what it represented was that she was her own superhero, even if Bats trained her.

DKR was a story about an old-as-hell Batman realizing that his city still needed him, and he still needed Batman. It was a vision that caused a comics revolution, but it certainly wasn't flawless. I'm thinking of those 30 panel pages with static shots of Gordon just chatting about nothing for 3 or 4 pages.

DKSA was about a legion of superheroes banding together to overthrow what they thought they had been defeated by. It didn't revolutionize anything, but took a good story and managed to complete it in a satisfying way.

[Invisible Queen]

I think DKSA is great. The real dark knight is maybe Superman, his line "I am not a man, I am Superman" when he tears into those helicopters being the only time I know that Supes has been scary.

And the vision of rampant information floods making the world a psychedelic roller coaster of crazy people commenting and discussing events as they happen, it's fascinating. "The actually seriously seriously real Batman!" It's so pure it could make me cry.

And the colors alone blow my mind. Especially Superman's daughter's costume. . .

[Closet_Skeleton]

(I do wish that people would stop believing that Batman can beat Superman in a fight, because that continues to be beyond stupid no matter what plot armor you've got)

Well, in Dark Knight Returns, Superman has been weakened by a direct hit from an atomic warhead and then hit by a kryptonite arrow. He's not at full power and still beats power armoured Batman.

[....]

Well, in Dark Knight Returns, Superman has been weakened by a direct hit from an atomic warhead and then hit by a kryptonite arrow. He's not at full power and still beats power armoured Batman.

Eh, Batman make himself die with drugs.

And, by the way, Green Arrow was awesome in both books.

[Tirian]

Most people do not agree with you that Superman won. Batman gloated over Superman's crumbled body and then self-induced a fatal heart attack (or so it seemed). And despite the atomic blast and synthetic kryptonite, Superman still came into that battle with the ability to fly faster than we could see. If he does that with his fist sticking out and aims for something, that thing gets turned into powder on contact even if there is an electric field and kryptonite radiation within a few feet of it.

The reason Batman won is because they both want to neutralize each other without inflicting lethal damage, and that's much easier to do to an immortal kryptonian than a sixty year-old human inside a mechanized battlesuit. Which is another thing that made Bruce's gloating ring so false; the fact that he survived to gloat about how far Clark had fallen was itself evidence of Clark's continued noble idealism.

[Lord of the Helms]

Well, in Dark Knight Returns, Superman has been weakened by a direct hit from an atomic warhead

Also, the sun had been blocked for days, if not weeks, further slowing Superdork's restoration to full power. He still could've won though, remember that he ripped his helment off and could've killed him with a single stroke at that point. Good thing Superdork doesn't kill people, that way we could see him get his ass kicked :smallamused:

[Grod_The_Giant]

The only time Batman really and truly beat the crap out of Superman was in Superman: Red Sun.

And maybe I should look for DKSA.

[Turcano]

The only time Batman really and truly beat the crap out of Superman was in Superman: Red Sun.

And maybe I should look for DKSA.

Okay, I don't know you, and I have no direct reason to be concerned for your mental health, so so take this as altruism in its purest form.

Do not read The Dark Knight Strikes Again.

This graphic novel was produced when Frank Miller drank the blood of twenty virgins, then spread his butt-cheeks and sprayed pure, unadulterated madness on Bristol board. It will break you.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Hey, I liked DKSA. But not for the same reasons as DKR, no, and I wouldn't ordinarily say the two of them in the same breath. DKR is a gritty, deeply philisophical look at one of the world's most iconic heroes, while DKSA is a campy, slightly jingoistic romp between a variety of superheroes that seems to be connected to DKR purely by coincidence. A fan of DKR will not necessarily like DKSA- actually, your most typical fan of DKR is ironically exactly the sort of person that will like DKSA the least.

[sealemon]

Or to put it another way, it was written at a time when Miller needed some beer money. It's rushed, loud, shallow and cheesy. Everything DKR is not. I'm actually embarrased to admit that Miller wrote it.

[Jerthanis]

Okay, I don't know you, and I have no direct reason to be concerned for your mental health, so so take this as altruism in its purest form.

Do not read The Dark Knight Strikes Again.

This graphic novel was produced when Frank Miller drank the blood of twenty virgins, then spread his butt-cheeks and sprayed pure, unadulterated madness on Bristol board. It will break you.

I seriously do NOT understand why people hate that book so much! It's not the exact same thing as DKR again, but it was still pretty good! I liked it better than... say... War Games, which was silly, long winded, unsatisfying and inconclusive.

It sounds like people just wanted DKR again, and were so insulted that it wasn't what they expected that they tore down the idea of the book out of spite.

[Turcano]

I seriously do NOT understand why people hate that book so much! It's not the exact same thing as DKR again, but it was still pretty good! I liked it better than... say... War Games, which was silly, long winded, unsatisfying and inconclusive.

It sounds like people just wanted DKR again, and were so insulted that it wasn't what they expected that they tore down the idea of the book out of spite.

Well, for a start, it had less of a plot than Bleach Blanket Bingo, nonsensical character development, anvilicious political moralizing that would make Michael Moore blush, and artwork that varied dramatically in quality and relied much too heavily on CGI.

[Invisible Queen]

Still, there are those who like DKSA, so maybe you shouldn't tell people not to read it because there is a chance they will like it.

[Turcano]

They may, but once you read something, you can't unread it.

[Tirian]

I agree with Turcano. I stand by my recommendation that people who like Batman not read it. I wish someone had given that advice to me.

TDKR gives a twisted perspective of Superman in order to highlight Batman's worldview, and while I'm not wild about it I respect it. DKSA continues that portrayal (or rather supplies a radically different twist) and then adds canonically inconsistent and often pointlessly offensive portrayals of Black Canary, Batgirl, Hawk and Dove, Dic Grayson , Lex Luthor, and ultimately Bruce himself. The voice is all wrong throughout the entire series, and it culminates in the final fight which, as Turcano correctly warns, you can't unread.

Do not want.

[Lord of the Helms]

But wait. From what I've heard of it so far, it features:

1. Plastic Man flushing someone down himself,
2. Green Arrow and the Question arguing politics, and
3. A bunch of heroes laying the smackdown on Superdork,

and it STILL isn't good in spite of those assets? :smallconfused:

[Viscount Einstrauss]

If you prefer your comics dark, meaningful, or poetic, then you're not going to like DKSA. It's campy. Very campy.

Very very very campy.

Forget DKR. DKSA is like an only very slightly more serious version of Adam West's Batman, except also including several other heroes. In fact, DKSA reads like Adam West wrote an ending to DC.

Now, that's why I like it. I didn't take it seriously, and even though I do prefer the darker Batman and DKR is leagues above DKSA for me, I can appreciate and enjoy super cheesy camp every now and then. So- viewer discretion advised, only the biggest lovers of camp should buy DKSA. If you do not love camp or don't think you could handle a super campy version of DKR, avoid it at all costs as it will make you rabidly angry.

[....]

DKSA is worth it just to see Superman get the crap kicked out of him by pretty much all the cool people from JSA.

And then get beat down by giant kryptonite boxing gloves :smallsmile:

[Invisible Queen]

"Once you read it you can't unread it"? Well, that's true. It's impossible to regain lost innocence. I guess ultimately, he question is if you're willing to take a risk and live a little bit or remain in a glass cage where it's safe and you don't have to question your image of Batman. . .

[Turcano]

If a person wants to "question [their] image of Batman," There's nothing in DKSA (or nothing good, at any rate) that isn't in DKR. As an analogy, I learned enough about Neo in The Matrix; I don't need to defile my retinas by watching Reloaded and Revolutions as well.

Seriously, I checked DKSA out from the library, and I still wanted a refund.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Your library stocks comics?! Alright, what's your actual location? The one under your avatar is too confusing and Google Maps didn't accept it.

[Turcano]

I live in Reno, Nevada, if you must know. The county library system has TPBs instead of comics as periodicals (although that isn't any real difference) in addition to graphic novels, and UNR's library has a few of the more esoteric GNs.

[Invisible Queen]

If a person wants to "question [their] image of Batman," There's nothing in DKSA (or nothing good, at any rate) that isn't in DKR.
I was trying to think of a good reason someone would want to not read DKSA, and the image of Batman thing was what I came up with. Do you have any reason other than it not being in your taste?

[Turcano]

I believe I summarized my main complaints here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2878147&postcount=18).

[Invisible Queen]

I believe that's a load of opinions and things that, while they can make a book bad, depend on what you perceive as good or bad and the context they are used in.

You think it's a bad book. That doesn't mean it is. I, for example, think it's good. I don't think it's my place to tell anyone they must read it any more than it's yours to tell them not to read it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Your library stocks comics?! Alright, what's your actual location? The one under your avatar is too confusing and Google Maps didn't accept it.

hey, every library I've been to where I live has at least a few TPBs.

[Turcano]

I believe that's a load of opinions and things that, while they can make a book bad, depend on what you perceive as good or bad and the context they are used in.

Yes, they are opinions, and opinions that I believe to be justified. If they weren't my opinions, or if I didn't think them justified, I wouldn't have wasted my time typing them out. However, some things are objectively bad; some people liked Catwoman, and that didn't stop that film from being a god-awful piece of dreck.


You think it's a bad book. That doesn't mean it is. I, for example, think it's good. I don't think it's my place to tell anyone they must read it any more than it's yours to tell them not to read it.

As much as would like the power to do so, I cannot command people to adhere to my tastes in general media (or at least expect to be obeyed). Rather, when I tell something not to read something, or watch something, or stick something up their nose, it is intended as a friendly (albeit sometimes hyperbolic) advice. Now, if someone wishes to ignore my advice, they are well within their rights to do so; whether they come to regret doing so is another matter entirely.

[kpenguin]

However, some things are objectively bad; some people liked Catwoman, and that didn't stop that film from being a god-awful piece of dreck.

Wait wait wait... someone like Catwoman? Is there a list of names we can make a lynch mob for? I'll bring the rope, you bring the torches.

[sealemon]

Wait wait wait... someone like Catwoman? Is there a list of names we can make a lynch mob for? I'll bring the rope, you bring the torches.

Let's get real here. There's probably some poor schmuck in Pox, South Dacota who just LOVES Highlander 2...for that matter, there's probably some mouth-breather somewhere who thinks Superman 4 was the best movie ever and rewinds the scene where Superman rebuilt the Playdoh Great Wall by staring at it over and over...doesn't mean we should hang them, rather pity them...for they know not what they are. :)

[talsine]

Let's get real here. There's probably some poor schmuck in Pox, South Dacota who just LOVES Highlander 2...

The renegade (read: directors cut) of Highlander 2 is watchable. If only just. I mean, instead of being like drinking molten glass, its like drinking boiling water. Which is a big difference. I still hate Highlander 3: The Apology though.

I like DKSA as well, but its very campy, as has been said. Still, some of the scenes are worth teh prices of admission, like The Flashes escape, or anything with Plasticman.

[....]

The renegade (read: directors cut) of Highlander 2 is watchable. If only just. I mean, instead of being like drinking molten glass, its like drinking boiling water. Which is a big difference. I still hate Highlander 3: The Apology though.

Renegade version is worse than the original.

Seriously, one minute MacLeaod is an old man; next there's these two guys flying and he cuts off ones head and he's young again.

Lets all just imagine it ended with the pwn that was Highlander.

[sealemon]

A few good scenes does not a good graphic novel make. Nor movie, book, ect. I say that because, yes, havign The Atom give Supes the mother of all migraines was pretty sweet.

I think I'd me more forgiving of TDKSB if it wasn't so obviously an example of Miller phoning it in for some big cash. As far as camp goes, Give Me Liberty is better camp by Miller all the way around (Granted, the parody is firmly rooted in the eighties, but the plot, characterization, dialogue ect. is just sooo much better than DKSB).

To me, DKSB read like a 13 year old's fanfiction version of what he thinks Miller would have written. It almost reads like a parody of DKR.


And IMO, the only revision of Highlander 2 I'd interested in is a magic version that could make me forget such a movie existed in the first place. Again, see also Jurassic Park 2. Bleh.