Scaling down and up monsters?

[KittenEV]

Hi, I'm going to try to DM my first game soon and I wanted to have a Hag be my party's first big boss, but the problem is they would be too low level to deal with her.

Is there a way to scale down some monsters to make it easier for lower level party's to fight them? And, in contrast, scale up other enemies for higher level parties?

[Arcangel4774]

Single enemies are surprisingly easy to a group. I, in a group with 3 other lvl 3 adventures, took out a giant. You could directly lower stats and remove the more overpowered spells/abilities of the hag.

[MrStabby]

Also going to agree solo monsters are easy.

As another point deadly encounters are actually perfectly survivable, even at low levels (although you can get unlucky).

Thirdly, this is a boss. The fight should be hard. Nothing wrong with not all players being conscious at the end.



To answer your question - for casters you can drop the DC of spells to make it easier to save/drop the casting stat.

Also, lowering movement speed can have a surprisingly large effect, if a subtle one.

[Laurefindel]

There is also the possibility of re-skinning another (level-appropriate) monster.

So the Night hag (CR 5) is too tough for your party? Use the stats from the green hag (CR 3) or even the Sea Hag (CR 2). Still too strong? Use the Thug (CR 1/2) NPC block. Then pick one or two of her archetypal abilities (nightmare haunting perhaps) and slap it on the new creature and bam, you have a weakened version of the night hag.

[Safety Sword]

Legendary and Lair actions are how single creatures deal with groups. Extra turns without having extra turns.

Scaling down is more problematic because you have to take iconic or theme defining abilities away from creatures.

Not impossible, but as previously said, finding an appropriate CR creature and re-skinning may save a lot of work.

[Laserlight]

If you have them face an overly strong monster at the end of an adventuring day when they've already had 3-5 encounters, used some spell slots, and taken some damage, then your party might be in trouble. However, if they tackle the hag at the beginning of their day when they have all their abilities, they can probably handle it. My party usually defeated 2xDeadly encounters without much problem, with 1-3 enounters per day.

[CaptainSarathai]

So then, what do you do about scaling up a creature? I'm likely going to be pitting my party against Hobgoblins for a while, starting at level5, and don't want to be running 20 of the little buggers every time they take the field.
I know that monsters do become more dangerous in numbers, and you can add traps or other terrain effects to increase difficulty of the fight, but if I just wanted to boost up a creature - is there a secret magic trick somewhere?

[MrStabby]

So then, what do you do about scaling up a creature? I'm likely going to be pitting my party against Hobgoblins for a while, starting at level5, and don't want to be running 20 of the little buggers every time they take the field.
I know that monsters do become more dangerous in numbers, and you can add traps or other terrain effects to increase difficulty of the fight, but if I just wanted to boost up a creature - is there a secret magic trick somewhere?

I like class levels, and things that approximate class levels. A hobgoblin cleric with bless can make a fight that bit harder. Maybe a leader with some fighter levels? Of course "levels" are a guide to thematic abilities that go together and give clues to what other abilities they might have. Add hit dice, proficiency bonus, stat increases, potions and other magic items.

Even low level abilities can transform an encounter. Imagine the same hobgoblins modelled on rogues. 2 levels would give you hit dice, a slew of skills they are proficient in (and can take expertise in athletics for shoves and grapples), they get sneak attack and with cunning action they can perform hit and run attacks with aplomb. These abilities on a couple of "Elite Guard" will absolutely transform an encounter whilst still keeping the character of the hobgoblins.

[KittenEV]

So do you guys think a party of 4 or 5 level 1s would be able to take on a challenge level 3 green hag and be ok?

[MrStabby]

No. Actually they probably can - but there is a risk to the fight. The risk is not so much that the players will lose but instead that the fight wont be fun. At that level PCs can be killed by a lucky crit, are pretty likely to lose to failed spell saves and so on. Whilst your villain might go down, it may be that in doing so some of your party are spending a lot of time doing nothing in the climactic fight.

At higher levels this is less of an issue - every class can be versatile, and to a certain extent if a player overspecialises (say by not bringing any ranged capability) then this is kind of their fault. At level 1, the PCs don't wield that many options.

So what happens if the Hag picks the weakest looking/least armoured member of your party, sneaks up to them invisible and hits them with all it can? It's probably inflicting the surprised condition on most of the party and it is going to have initiative comparable to most casters. It has a really good chance to get two hits in before that player gets a turn - so its fine if your level 1 party wizard has more than 30 HP, otherwise it could mean an unrewarding fight for them, and a fight that should be climactic.

Even ignoring advantage, initiative and so on you will have a good number of characters dying to a single hit - average of 13 damage. The fight isn't too hard, but it may mean not a lot of fun for some players.

[KittenEV]

Even ignoring advantage, initiative and so on you will have a good number of characters dying to a single hit - average of 13 damage. The fight isn't too hard, but it may mean not a lot of fun for some players.

How do you suggest making the fight fun but winnable then? I'm getting the hang of the role play aspects of DnD but the combat stuff is still eluding me unfortunately. :/

[D.U.P.A.]

What about multiple hags? After all they tend to unite in covens.

[Renvir]

I'd suggest giving the hag some lair actions that aren't extra attacks or damaging features. Maybe something that provides extra movement or teleportation? Against one enemy it can be easy for the battle to get static so moving around is really useful but won't damage the PC's. Summoning weak (CR 1/8 to 1/2) allies for the Hag is also an option. Maybe every time it takes damage a creature of low CR takes its place and it teleports somewhere within 30 feet.

[Pex]

If you have not started the campaign yet, another option is to start above level 1. There is no rule that says you must start a campaign at level 1. Level 3 is a good starting level. That's when all classes have their archetypes and feel like being a member of that class. They have the hit points for survival and interesting & fun class abilities. There is verisimilitude room for backstory flavor text for players to describe what their characters did before becoming adventurers to show how they are above the ordinary normal common folk. Since the Night Hag is CR 5 it would make for a tough but doable solo fight against the party. Maybe they'll reach 4th level before having to face her.

[Gastronomie]

If you have not started the campaign yet, another option is to start above level 1. There is no rule that says you must start a campaign at level 1. Level 3 is a good starting level. That's when all classes have their archetypes and feel like being a member of that class. They have the hit points for survival and interesting & fun class abilities. There is verisimilitude room for backstory flavor text for players to describe what their characters did before becoming adventurers to show how they are above the ordinary normal common folk. Since the Night Hag is CR 5 it would make for a tough but doable solo fight against the party. Maybe they'll reach 4th level before having to face her.This. I have never started my characters at level 2 or lower, and it works.

Also, as aforementioned with turning the Thug into a Hag, re-skinning is as easy as hell.

Another piece of advice: if you make their attacks mainly illusions, control spells and vicious mockery (a strong attack spell only every now and then), they will stay a fearsome foe without the danger of putting out lots of damage and resulting in a TPK via too-lucky DM rolls.

[BW022]

Hi, I'm going to try to DM my first game soon and I wanted to have a Hag be my party's first big boss, but the problem is they would be too low level to deal with her.

Is there a way to scale down some monsters to make it easier for lower level party's to fight them? And, in contrast, scale up other enemies for higher level parties?

My first advice is not to try to force monsters on groups. If you have a great idea, vision, etc. and the party isn't ready for it... put it aside for later. Powerful monsters are supposed to be powerful. Players have to work at adventuring before they can tackle them. If you simple "fudge" powerful monsters and make them less powerful, then you rob players of that sense of accomplishment when they defeat them. Players quickly realize it wasn't a *real* hag and worse they begin thinking that monsters are always made of paper as they are meant to be killed. This means you can never really scare or threaten them.

However, there are lots of things a DM can do to scale up or down encounters.

1. NPCs. There can be a powerful NPC who fights the hag and the PCs are only there to help. This can be setup in many ways besides just someone helping you -- a three way fight (the hag is fighting some orcs when the PCs encounter her), a friendly NPC, an ogre seeking revenge against her, etc.

2. Magic items. The PCs can gain a powerful magic item which evens the fight out. A wand of magic missiles, something which negates charm, a scroll of conjure animals, several flaming arrows, etc.

3. Terrain or setting. The players can be fighting from an extremely favorable location or setting. A small keep, trap her in a cave with no exists, ambush her on a bridge, etc.

4. Mundane items. Traps, pits, walls, cover, barrels of oil, poison, good equipment, etc. might all be useful in confronting her. If you lead her into an ambush area and cause an avalanche... fight is likely much easier.

5. Stealth, Surprise, Subterfuge. Disguising yourself as servants, sneaking into her hair, and killing her while she sleeps.

6. Way to defeat her. The hag might have a mission which can be defeated by means other than killing her. Foiling her plans might be good enough. For example, maybe she has made a deal with a powerful devil and needs to get the devil a crystal by the next full moon. If the PCs can get the crystal and keep it away from her until the full moon... the devil will come and kill her.

7. Enemy has restrictions. The foe can't use all of its abilities. The hag is in a city and trying to remain undiscovered. It is relying on stealth, illusion, etc. and can't fight in the open. Maybe it is killed the daughter of a powerful noble and has assumed her form. Players merely need to expose her -- say during a wedding. Once exposed, she is going to flee.

Any of these can be used to make a fight much easier or harder. Personally, if the PCs are much lower than the CR, I'd require multiple adventurers for them to accomplish this. For example, if the party is 1st-level and they are 'facing' a night hag (CR 5, 112+ hit points, and attacks likely to easily kill even 3rd-level PCs) this isn't something they would likely have much of a hope for. Maybe...

The PCs are investigating orcs raiding merchants. They meet several and learn they are looking for a 'noble woman' who tricked them, murdered their chief, and stole the tribes emblem. They return to town, investigate, and discover that this woman is new in town and is seeing the mayor. They have to face the mayor's guards, but learn she might be an imposter. They report to the orcs and arrange to ambush the noble woman as she crosses a bridge.

This takes several sessions, so the PCs likely reach says 3rd-level by the time they fight them. They'll have say 25 orcs to fight her and a few guards, likely surprise, and able to fight her on a bridge from a distance. The hag can waste spells on the orcs and the PCs can stay back and try to say collapse the bridge. Finally... maybe they don't need to kill her... merely the fact she has to transform in order to fight all the orcs is itself enough. She'll plane shift away, but the guards can attest to the fact that she isn't human.

Maybe she'll reappear later in the campaign, say when the PCs are 5th-level, and be looking for revenge?