Optimizer's First Thoughts on Races in Volo's

[PeteNutButter]

I'll try and keep this vague for now. Buy the book people. There are a few races here that are down-right strong, and the book is well worth the price tag. This is just first impressions. I'm sure there are things out there that I've not considered that could push the weaker races up.

I love what they did here. The one in the DMG was a little too bland, and this more than made up for it. It comes with a toggle on damage boost on a long rest cooldown. Cha and another point from 3 different subclasses. I see it being mostly paladins and bladelocks taking this, and none will regret it. A good race all in all.
This one was spoiled. I have to say, I find it a tad underwhelming. Probably best left clerics really.
Old news here. Just another Half-Orc chassis race.
Lots of flavor here. Dex and wisdom could make for some good rogues, rangers, or monks. Falls behind a bit without darkvision. Appears weaker than other options.
I love lizardfolk, and I really really want to make this work, but I'm just not sure. It has a overfull kit with scales, natural weapon etc, but doesn't have the right stat boosts to really benefit from it on point buy. With con and wis, I wouldn't be surprised to see mostly clerics or druids. Rangers and monks are tempting, but the lack of a boost to dex or str makes it hard to justify. Perhaps shillelagh builds are the niche here. Interestingly scales +defense style appears to give 14 + dex AC RAW.
Dex and cha? Well they have some nice abilities and skills. It is screaming to be a rogue or perhaps more specifically a thief. If you want to be a thief and you don't mind being a kitty... This is your bag.
Another goodie here. It wants so hard to be a paladin or bladelock, and really gives the variant human a run for his money. Strong race with point buy.
Just wow. The stats in str and dex are a bit odd, but his racial abilities are very strong. Makes a fantastic rogue, or really anyone wanting to use booming blade.
Dex and con with a damage boost on short rest cooldown. Very nice and thematic.
Con and int kind of pigeon-holes wizard. EK/AT could work, but 5e doesn't really have much else to offer for int based races. Very strong racial ability on short rest cd.
Another wow. All I need to say is Sharpshooter. Dex and that racial is just too strong.
I'm disappointed here. A cool abiltiy, but overall seems weaker than his half-breed cousin.
Interesting stats, but those abilities are beyond strong. Works decently with any cha class.

[Mortis_Elrod]

How did you get volo's so early?

[NecroDancer]

Witch!!! Gather the townsfolk!!

[j_spencer93]

Certain hobby stores got them November 1st i believe.

[DracoKnight]

I'm really happy with the racial offerings here :smallsmile:

[thepsyker]

Can you share any additional information on Aasimar?

[WhiteEagle88]

Can pre-order Volo's Guide to Monsters on Amazon right now for $29.97. Saves almost 20 bucks. I just submitted mine.

[Drackolus]

theY ACTUALLY DO HAVE KOBOLDS HOLY CRAP I'M SO HAPPY

[MeeposFire]

theY ACTUALLY DO HAVE KOBOLDS HOLY CRAP I'M SO HAPPY

But they get a boost to str? That is about the strangest new addition I have seen so far. I would have thought cha for a boost to being a sorcerer (or bard).

[Daphne]

theY ACTUALLY DO HAVE KOBOLDS HOLY CRAP I'M SO HAPPY

Kobold : +2 dex, -2 str, Small, Speed 30, Darkvision, Pack Tactics, Sunlight sensitivity and the following ability: as an action you give disadvantage to all enemies within 10 feet of you that can see you, can be used once per rest. Languages: common and draconic

Thoughts? Personally, I like it, Pack tactics compensates sunlight sensitivity, and its racial ability is neat. The only thing I hate here is the -2 strength

[Drackolus]

But they get a boost to str? That is about the strangest new addition I have seen so far. I would have thought cha for a boost to being a sorcerer (or bard).

Me too. Of course, I have had every intention of rewriting it as soon as it came out so I could add Dragonwrought kobolds a subrace anyway, and that'd be the first to go. I just wanted a basis.

[MeeposFire]

Kobold : +2 dex, -2 str, Small, Speed 30, Darkvision, Pack Tactics, Sunlight sensitivity and the following ability: as an action you give disadvantage to all enemies within 10 feet of you that can see you, can be used once per rest. Languages: common and draconic

Thoughts? Personally, I like it, Pack tactics compensates sunlight sensitivity, and its racial ability is neat. The only thing I hate here is the -2 strength

A penalty? I did not think they used those anymore...

[Daphne]

A penalty? I did not think they used those anymore...

Yeah it sucks, both kobolds (-2 str) and orcs (-2 int) have penalties

[Discord]

Me too. Of course, I have had every intention of rewriting it as soon as it came out so I could add Dragonwrought kobolds a subrace anyway, and that'd be the first to go. I just wanted a basis.

I find it odd how WoTC is going against their usual meta so far with races. I thought they were trying to stay away from the negatives to stats so really any race could play in any class? Definitely will not be seeing any Orc Arcane Tricksters / Wizards or any Kobolds in a strength based build, at least if your being meta.

[Gignere]

I find it odd how WoTC is going against their usual meta so far with races. I thought they were trying to stay away from the negatives to stats so really any race could play in any class? Definitely will not be seeing any Orc Arcane Tricksters / Wizards or any Kobolds in a strength based build, at least if your being meta.

When is the last time you saw a small race strength based build in 5e that didn't rolled ridiculous abilities? The -2 to strength changes nothing, being unable to hold heavy weapons dooms the strength builds for small race already.

[Envyus]

Also how is the Orc weaker then the Half Orc. From what I have heard. It has all the abilites of a Half Orc. Along with an extra ability. (Aggressive allows them to charge an extra 30 feet to an enemy.) with a -2 int penalty.

[Daphne]

Also how is the Orc weaker then the Half Orc. From what I have heard. It has all the abilites of a Half Orc. Along with an extra ability. (Aggressive allows them to charge an extra 30 feet to an enemy.) with a -2 int penalty.

You are right, Orcs are exactly this, they are better than half orc for almost all melee classes

[MeeposFire]

When is the last time you saw a small race strength based build in 5e that didn't rolled ridiculous abilities?

Well on a barbarian a stout halfling's bonus to dex and con can give you a good starting stat range and eventually you can get the stats you want. Now the stats are fine but the reason you do not see more halfling barbs is due to heavy weapons being so bad with small characters rather than a lack of str bonus.

So really I think the reason you don't see too many small str builds is that dex weapons for the most part are near equal to str weapons unless you are going two handed with the heavy ability in which case small characters are penalized. The problem is inability to effectively use heavy weapon not the lack of str bonus. Also outside of the barbarian class no other class explicitly require you to use str so why would you go out of the way to do it?

If a shield user could get that sort of bonus damage then I think you would see some more small sized barbs.

[Kane0]

Glad i preordered

[Naanomi]

How are Tritons next to Water Gensai (their closest existing flavor I'd think)

[Daphne]

How are Tritons next to Water Gensai (their closest existing flavor I'd think)

A lot better

Str +1, Con +1, Cha +1, can breath underwater, can cast gust of wind at 3rd level and wall of water 5th level (both once per long rest), can communicate simple ideas with beasts that breath underwater, can survive in the deep sea and speaks commom and primordial

[Naanomi]

A lot better

Str +1, Con +1, Cha +1, can breath underwater, can cast gust of wind at 3rd level and wall of water 5th level (both once per long rest), can communicate simple ideas with beasts that breath underwater, can survive in the deep sea and speaks commom and primordial
Nice! I wonder if my GM will let me convert my Beastmaster into a Triton now...

[Sigreid]

I'm disappointed to hear that they went with negative attributes. I really appreciated them dropping that

Edit: I'll pick up the book tomorrow, but I think what I will propose to my group is that all of the negative modifiers get dropped. I don't think it'll affect power balance too much and it'll let you play that kobald barbarian or orc wizard if that's what you want to do.

[DrDinocrusher]

I really want to find out what the Yuan-Ti stats are, they seem like a super interesting race to play.

Also my immediate thought with Bugbears is that they will make incredibly lethal polearm masters. 15ft GWM master attacks? You're basically a ranged character at that point. Their stats are perfect for it too. Also for maximum dice trolling, Level 6 fiend pact Hobgoblin Warlocks with lucky are going to be the kings and queens of "never fail a saving throw. Ever." Splash 2 Wizard (divination) for ultimate dice shenanigans, and pact of the chain if you just want to never be hit by anything.

[Belac93]

What does the Kenku have besides mimicry? It by itself seems pretty weak.

[DrDinocrusher]

What does the Kenku have besides mimicry? It by itself seems pretty weak.

Kenku get advantage on duplicating objects, and 2 skill proficiencies from a dex focused list so they'll probably make great skill monkey rogues in particular, solid for rangers as well.

[PeteNutButter]

Also how is the Orc weaker then the Half Orc. From what I have heard. It has all the abilites of a Half Orc. Along with an extra ability. (Aggressive allows them to charge an extra 30 feet to an enemy.) with a -2 int penalty.

It lacks the increased crit, and the defy death abilities of the half orc packed in with the -2 int, trading it all for powerful build and aggressive, which is a conditional bonus action dodge. If you find yourself getting kited a lot, it's good, but if most fights in your game are already close, its a total waste.


A lot better

Str +1, Con +1, Cha +1, can breath underwater, can cast gust of wind at 3rd level and wall of water 5th level (both once per long rest), can communicate simple ideas with beasts that breath underwater, can survive in the deep sea and speaks commom and primordial

And resistance to cold damage. Very strong race for paladin types.


I really want to find out what the Yuan-Ti stats are, they seem like a super interesting race to play.


Yuan-ti are depressingly the same stats as a base tiefling, aka awful stats cha and int. Magic resistance and poison immunity are VERY nice though.


Can you share any additional information on Aasimar?

Aasimar get +2 cha and 3 different subraces with another +1 to wis, con, or str. Each one has its own unique ability to act as a damage boost. The fallen aasimar gives str making it probably the most popular choice. It is screaming vengeance paladin.

[Kane0]

What does the Kenku have besides mimicry? It by itself seems pretty weak.

You say that as if being able to have the voice of Morgan Freeman isn't the main draw of being a Kenku.



Aasimar get +2 cha and 3 different subraces with another +1 to wis, con, or str. Each one has its own unique ability to act as a damage boost. The fallen aasimar gives str making it probably the most popular choice. It is screaming vengeance paladin.

So we have Hellbred now?

[Arkhios]

Do the negatives apply to the maximum 20 rule, or is it just the starting stats?

If the latter, I honestly don't think it would make playing a kobold barbarian or orc wizard much more difficult. Both classes will boost those stats anyway, and wizard especially doesn't really really need any feats.

Also, being the paladin junkie as I am, I'd like to hear more about each of the aasimar options.

[DrDinocrusher]

Yuan-ti are depressingly the same stats as a base tiefling, aka awful stats cha and int. Magic resistance and poison immunity are VERY nice though.

Something other than int would be nice but they're gonna be excellent for any CHA based classes. And not a bad choice for a wizard either.

[MaxWilson]

Goblin seems excellent. Free Nimble Escape? Yes, please. The DMG considers that roughly equivalent to +4 to to-hit and +4 to AC, and if anything I'd guesstimate that to be low once you combine it with Stealth proficiency or Expertise and some source of obscurement (like Fog Cloud, Darkness, or Greater Invisibility).

Goblins will make excellent wizards and bardlocks. You get something awesome to do with your bonus action, without having to dip Rogue 2 for it.

[Gastronomie]

Damn you flaggers, it's the end of November when we finally get Volo in Japan.

The extra options really do make me excited. Unlike classes, you can have only one race, so adding lots of races wouldn't make character builds over-complicated either.

[Arkhios]

The extra options really do make me excited. Unlike classes, you can have only one race, so adding lots of races wouldn't make character builds over-complicated either.

Very much agreed, new races are much better addition than a gazillion new class options.

[Sigreid]

Do the negatives apply to the maximum 20 rule, or is it just the starting stats?

If the latter, I honestly don't think it would make playing a kobold barbarian or orc wizard much more difficult. Both classes will boost those stats anyway, and wizard especially doesn't really really need any feats.

Also, being the paladin junkie as I am, I'd like to hear more about each of the aasimar options.

If you go off type like an Orc wizard it's effectively 1 less ASI as a race tax. But mostly I just am not a fan of them breaking their no penalties to starting stats rule now. I mean PCs are the exceptional ones of their species.

[Aett_Thorn]

If you go off type like an Orc wizard it's effectively 1 less ASI as a race tax. But mostly I just am not a fan of them breaking their no penalties to starting stats rule now. I mean PCs are the exceptional ones of their species.

While I agree with this to some degree, I think that the no penalties should only apply to the main races. There is a reason why those races are the dominant ones on most campaign worlds. And who is to say that a -2 Int Orc still isn't the smartest in his tribe? I mean, they aren't exactly known for their intelligence. As long as the race is overall balanced, I'm fine with it.

[mephnick]

There was pretty much no way to incorporate some race's abilities without balancing with negative multipliers, so I thought it was a given they'd break that rule for some new races.

I like that the core races have no negatives, but I'm fine with something like an orc (which shouldn't really be a common PC race) having negatives. Otherwise you'd just end up with really unbalanced races or bland races that all look the same.

[Arkhios]

If you go off type like an Orc wizard it's effectively 1 less ASI as a race tax. But mostly I just am not a fan of them breaking their no penalties to starting stats rule now. I mean PCs are the exceptional ones of their species.

Sure, if you are obsessively compulsive about getting that 20 in the primary stat. It's not like 18 in the same stat was horribly worse. It's just 1 (one) point less. If you look at the Monster Manual Kobold or Orc, their stats represent more or less the average of their races. In the Orc standards, for example, Intelligence 18 is exceptional.

[Sigreid]

I'll have to look at the book to see how it pans out and may change my mind, but my bias going in is that the races aren't really balanced against each other anyway and I think the no negatives was a good rule.

[mgshamster]

Don't forget that it you buy the first release from your local hobby store, you can get the special edition cover art of an ilithid.

Also, the release date is November 15th.

[Naanomi]

I wonder how AL will handle this; just one more 'only one extra sourcebook'?

[Mordrigar]

I wonder which of these races have - ability score modifiers. I basically hate it. Is it too unbalanced to remove - ability modifiers on playable monster races?

[Naanomi]

The negatives don't bother me, these are not standard races... look at the old 2e Humanoid book, or half the 3e monster races... all kinds of craziness there, and compared to LA or low level caps, this is just fine

[Dman]

I wonder which of these races have - ability score modifiers. I basically hate it. Is it too unbalanced to remove - ability modifiers on playable monster races?

It looks like it will end up being the 2 monster races at this point.

[orange74]

If you consider the baseline to be humans, given that humans have 6 +1s, "from a certain point of view" every other race already has negative modifiers, just none bigger than -1. In that light, it's not new... just more honest.

[Xethik]

KOBOLD RACE Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaas.

Ehem.

[RulesJD]

A few things:

1. Best optimization race is still V. Human for every class. Feats are too strong to override.

2. Aasimar are the only new race that is truly "optimizable". The stat bonuses are solid and those once per long rest abilities are, quite frankly, incredibly broken. The additional damage once PER YOUR TURN and it triggers off of spells as well, I mean come on.

Be prepared for nothing but Aasimar Paladins, Locks, and Cleric/Sorcs at your table. They are simply too strong not to have. They have literal class features (Lay on Hands), TWO resistances, 2/3 of the subraces have monstrously useful once/longrest ability, etc.

The only reason not to build an Aasimar for certain classes is extreme powergaming (V. Human still best with feat) or if for some reason your campaign will never take long rests and only will work on short rests.

2. Tabaxi.

Rogues, rogues for days. Double speed = maybe works with Cunning Action Dash to move 120ft in a turn at level 2. And it recharges super quick. Given the Bonus to Cha is almost the perfect (again minus V. Human) for Swashbuckler Rogues looking to maximize Booming Blade.

Also, decently solid race for Shadow Monk/Warlock combo with the boost to each primary stat and the useful additional movement.

3. Besides Tabaxi and Aasimar, there really aren't any "optimized" combos in the new races. Sure there are some obvious ones, but none that are better than what's available in the PHB. I so, so wanted to be a Kobold Sorcerer but that Sunlight Sensitivity is a MASSIVE restriction if your DM runs it by the rules. It basically means that unless you're in an Underdark Campaign, you're never ever going to be able to get Advantage on an attack, even with Pack Tactics.

Also, holy crap am I disappointed in the Orc. It is in every way inferior to Half-Orc. The bonus action movement is completely useless in 99% of situations, especially compared to Half-Orc abilities.

4. Small races apparently don't have movement restrictions now. Or at least all fo the new Small races still have 30ft of movement, so I guess they have that going for you.


TL;DR: Aasimar are borderline OP and definitely second best next to V.Human now. Tabaxi are optimizable enough to make worthwhile Rogues/Monks. Every other race is flavorful, but not Optimized compared to what's in the PHB.

[Daphne]

A few things:

TL;DR: Aasimar are borderline OP and definitely second best next to V.Human now. Tabaxi are optimizable enough to make worthwhile Rogues/Monks. Every other race is flavorful, but not Optimized compared to what's in the PHB.

Bugbears have extra reach and bonus damage on surprise round, V. Human cant replicate this.

Yuan-ti have magic resistance AND suggestion once per day.

How these races are not optimized?

[RulesJD]

Bugbears have extra reach and bonus damage on surprise round, V. Human cant replicate this.

Yuan-ti have magic resistance AND suggestion once per day.

How these races are not optimized?

1. Extra reach is okay, but highly situationally useful. V. Human can just take Polearm Mastery at level 1 and have the exact same reach, AND an opportunity attack, AND a bonus action attack that automatically adds your stat modifier.

Surprise rounds are extremely rare, at least in games that I play (AL mostly but even in home games), and Bugbears are not built to be stealthy enough to actually make use of that.

For to add, Aasimar get that bonus damage once per long rest for an entire minute, which is going to be at least 1 fight per day, compared to how often a Bugbear will get a Surprise round? Not even close.

2. Yuan-ti magic resistance is nice, but their stats and additional spells suck. Off all of the "remaining" non-optimized races I would list them as one of the better ones, but again unless I'm in a very specific campaign that will have a lot of spell casters (and a DM that actually knows how to use spell casters which is rare) then their are situationally useful at best.

[SharkForce]

1. Extra reach is okay, but highly situationally useful. V. Human can just take Polearm Mastery at level 1 and have the exact same reach, AND an opportunity attack, AND a bonus action attack that automatically adds your stat modifier.

and then at level 4 the bugbear takes the feat and uses a polearm also. now enemies with 10 foot reach are to the bugbear as enemies with 5 foot reach are to the human.

variant human will always be strong at level 1 when it can have a feat and nobody else can, but even in core the more levels you gain the less amazing a feat at level 1 becomes.

[Daphne]

I will reply inside the quote:


1. Extra reach is okay, but highly situationally useful. V. Human can just take Polearm Mastery at level 1 and have the exact same reach, AND an opportunity attack, AND a bonus action attack that automatically adds your stat modifier.

A bugbear can use a glaive and have 15 ft reach, yes you delay feats, but I think its a totally viable alternative, especially if you play fighter

Bugbears are not built to be stealthy enough to actually make use of that.

They literally gain proficiency in stealth checks and have +1 dex, what are you talking about?

Yuan-ti magic resistance is nice, but their additional spells suck.

Suggestion is one the strongest 2nd level spells in the game, it doesn't suck

[RickAllison]

Bugbears seem like awesome melee rogues (note that I haven't seen the stat block yet...). Less bonuses for the ability, but the ability for a Thief or Assassin to get in and out of melee range without opportunity attacks.

[Levistej]

The protector aasimar gets to be an angel 1/day, the fallen one gets to scare people and do necro damage, what does the scourge one get?

[Dman]

Bugbears seem like awesome melee rogues (note that I haven't seen the stat block yet...). Less bonuses for the ability, but the ability for a Thief or Assassin to get in and out of melee range without opportunity attacks.

+2 STR +1Dex

[PeteNutButter]

@RulesJD I think you might be overvaluing the aasimar racial. The fact that it takes an action to activate is fairly balancing. The scaling is very strong, but at low levels it takes several rounds, likely more than you get, to be even worth it. It is very strong but not game breaking until higher levels.

I think triton is strong with the ability to start with 3 16s and a solid damage resistance. Definately valuable in a campaign expecting lots of water.

Yuan ti are great. Magic resistance is definitely worth a feat.

Overall, yes variant human is often going to be optimal, especially on martial builds.

[PeteNutButter]

The protector aasimar gets to be an angel 1/day, the fallen one gets to scare people and do necro damage, what does the scourge one get?

Burns up himself and those nearby, basically goes supernova.

[RulesJD]

and then at level 4 the bugbear takes the feat and uses a polearm also. now enemies with 10 foot reach are to the bugbear as enemies with 5 foot reach are to the human.

variant human will always be strong at level 1 when it can have a feat and nobody else can, but even in core the more levels you gain the less amazing a feat at level 1 becomes.

Yes, and the V. Human can take Sentinel feat. Granting even more off turn attacks AND stopping 5ft reach enemies in their tracks, etc.


It's not that Bugbear is bad, it is just outshined at doing it's job by V. Human. 5ft extra reach isn't that big of a deal in actual gameplay. It comes up maybe once every few sessions for about 1 round until the enemy just steps forward on the next turn.

[Levistej]

Burns up himself and those nearby, basically goes supernova.
Like a self centered AoE or something like that?

[2D8HP]

Best optimization race is still V. Human for every class. Feats are too strong to overrideSine Feats are "options", the DM can override the V-human by declaring Feats an option that will not be used.
In practice I haven't seen that, but I have seen Darkvision matter more than Feats on play.

[gfishfunk]

Sine Feats are "options", the DM can override the V-human by declaring Feats an option that will not be used.
In practice I haven't seen that, but I have seen Darkvision matter more than Feats on play.

That is the funny thing about optimization - its generally DM dependent. I'm in a game and a run a game, my DM is a player in my game and I am a player in his game. I don't think my DM has ever enforced Darkvision, and I rarely have huge penalties for it. My encounters are much more suitable for reach weapons and long distance attacks (at least some), but my DM's encounters are generally within a 60' x 60' box. My players often get surprise rounds because the players approach most of their encounters socially before attacking, but my DMs encounters rarely have a surprise element. My players often need a short rest every two encounters, but my DM only gives us 1 or 2 encounters per long rest.

A bugbear would do really well in my games, the Aasimir would do really well in my DM's games.

[Dman]

That is the funny thing about optimization - its generally DM dependent. I'm in a game and a run a game, my DM is a player in my game and I am a player in his game. I don't think my DM has ever enforced Darkvision, and I rarely have huge penalties for it. My encounters are much more suitable for reach weapons and long distance attacks (at least some), but my DM's encounters are generally within a 60' x 60' box. My players often get surprise rounds because the players approach most of their encounters socially before attacking, but my DMs encounters rarely have a surprise element. My players often need a short rest every two encounters, but my DM only gives us 1 or 2 encounters per long rest.

A bugbear would do really well in my games, the Aasimir would do really well in my DM's games.

this is a really good way of putting things although because I missed out on seeing the Aasimir spoiler I cant say too much but what most interests me about the bugbear is the idea that it can be a psudo Jason Voorhees.

Im sure ill come up with an idea for the Aasimir and the other fuller races too but right now Bugbear and maybe Hobgoblin are the 2 im most interested in.

[MrFahrenheit]

Can we please get some races with a cha bonus that don't fall under the moody or dark type? Yeah aasimar and triton are exceptions to this rule, but more boisterous cha races would've been appreciated.

[Flashy]

Can we please get one race with a cha bonus that isn't the moody or dark type? Yeah aasimar and triton are exceptions to this rule, but more boisterous cha races would've been appreciated.

What's moody about half elves and halflings?

[PeteNutButter]

Can we please get some races with a cha bonus that don't fall under the moody or dark type? Yeah aasimar and triton are exceptions to this rule, but more boisterous cha races would've been appreciated.
It is a book of monsters...

But you got 4 out of the 13 new races with cha boosts. That's a decent boost. You get angel, kitty, aquaman, and Voldemort.

[MrFahrenheit]

Perhaps I should've worded it differently, but if you look at those able to sway large populaces in fantasy settings, they've got charisma, and they're the boisterous type. The dark/broody kinds run thieves' guilds or can be puppet masters (think Littlefinger), and the catch-all half elf types are often merchants. Triton is a nice departure, and though dragonborn could be thrown into the same boat, fluff works against them.

[Shining Wrath]

I can see uses for these from the DM's side of the screen, too. Flavorful NPCs are popping into my head, I just need to get my table out of the human capital city (already established as not having too many non-humans) and I can start introducing fun people. Hmmmm ... I've got a use for a Triton instead of a Water Genasi, oh yes I do!

[PeteNutButter]

Perhaps I should've worded it differently, but if you look at those able to sway large populaces in fantasy settings, they've got charisma, and they're the boisterous type. The dark/broody kinds run thieves' guilds or can be puppet masters (think Littlefinger), and the catch-all half elf types are often merchants. Triton is a nice departure, and though dragonborn could be thrown into the same boat, fluff works against them.

Yeah I see what you are saying. To be fair most fantasy has that role filled by humans. The regal triton and aasimar are both well within that category.

If my party's devotion paladin literally grew angel wings I'd follow his ass to my death. He can definitely fit in front of a crowd or army.

[MrFahrenheit]

On another note...how are the monsters? Did they address the mid-high CR lack of options well?

[RulesJD]

On another note...how are the monsters? Did they address the mid-high CR lack of options well?

Haven't gotten through all of them yet, but they definitely shored up the mid-CRs, high end not so much.

What I've noticed is a LOT of "new" abilities that could be tailored to counter specific types of parties. The Giant Dreamwalker is every Barbarian/Fighter's nightmare.

Honestly though the threat to high parties isn't from one strong, high CR monster. It's from better management by the DM and 6-7 CR creatures of just a few above the party's level.

[SharkForce]

Yes, and the V. Human can take Sentinel feat. Granting even more off turn attacks AND stopping 5ft reach enemies in their tracks, etc.


It's not that Bugbear is bad, it is just outshined at doing it's job by V. Human. 5ft extra reach isn't that big of a deal in actual gameplay. It comes up maybe once every few sessions for about 1 round until the enemy just steps forward on the next turn.

sure, the variant human will be one feat ahead for a while. then they'll both have the feats they want, and the variant human will have a bit higher attribute for a while. eventually, there's a fairly decent chance both will be maxed on their main attribute as well, and the only difference will be that the variant human has a bit higher attribute in their third-most important attribute.

starts off big. gets less valuable as time goes on. never worthless, mind you, just less valuable. at some point, the +5 foot reach will be worth more than the extra feat. it likely won't be at level 1 (except in a few specific scenarios). it still probably won't be at level 4 (unless the party spends a lot of time in 10 foot wide hallways and has 3 or more melee characters, in which case it's pretty nice). it might not even be at level 8. but eventually, the feat stops being such a huge increase and you're better off as a bugbear than as a variant human.

[MrFahrenheit]

Honestly though the threat to high parties isn't from one strong, high CR monster. It's from better management by the DM and 6-7 CR creatures of just a few above the party's level.

Oh I agree. But it will be nice to have more options to make combat less micro-manage-y in the 12-16 level range which don't feel like they should've been only bosses.

[PeteNutButter]

Anyone else notice that RAW the lizardfolk scales with defense fighting style makes it 14 + dex? Neat trick, but without a dex bonus, it'd take some time to really make it pay off.

[RulesJD]

sure, the variant human will be one feat ahead for a while. then they'll both have the feats they want, and the variant human will have a bit higher attribute for a while. eventually, there's a fairly decent chance both will be maxed on their main attribute as well, and the only difference will be that the variant human has a bit higher attribute in their third-most important attribute.

starts off big. gets less valuable as time goes on. never worthless, mind you, just less valuable. at some point, the +5 foot reach will be worth more than the extra feat. it likely won't be at level 1 (except in a few specific scenarios). it still probably won't be at level 4 (unless the party spends a lot of time in 10 foot wide hallways and has 3 or more melee characters, in which case it's pretty nice). it might not even be at level 8. but eventually, the feat stops being such a huge increase and you're better off as a bugbear than as a variant human.

The problem is that the whole time you're describing is months and months of gameplay in real world time. Absolutely V. Human loses its shine by level 20, no doubt. But optimizing a build for level 20 is a fun theorycraft that has no bearing in actual gameplay. Being a Feat ahead, especially on a Martial class, is a huge advantage for the vaaaast majority of gameplay.

[PeteNutButter]

The problem is that the whole time you're describing is months and months of gameplay in real world time. Absolutely V. Human loses its shine by level 20, no doubt. But optimizing a build for level 20 is a fun theorycraft that has no bearing in actual gameplay. Being a Feat ahead, especially on a Martial class, is a huge advantage for the vaaaast majority of gameplay.

I agree with RulesJD again here.

Another huge drawback on these races of variant human in AL, is they can't cast BB/GFB or absorb elements. It's a huge blow to a ton of builds. At the moment you can't use BB on a bugbear... so what's the point? (BTW you'd probably still need spell sniper/no 15ft BB.)

[SharkForce]

The problem is that the whole time you're describing is months and months of gameplay in real world time. Absolutely V. Human loses its shine by level 20, no doubt. But optimizing a build for level 20 is a fun theorycraft that has no bearing in actual gameplay. Being a Feat ahead, especially on a Martial class, is a huge advantage for the vaaaast majority of gameplay.

i said it might not be level 8. for a fair number of builds, it could be.

for example, let's say you have a proposed build of a fighter that wants sentinel, polearm master, and great weapon master (so you deal lots of damage and probably stop one target dead before they can get to you). if your build is a fighter, you have achieved that at level 8. if you want to be a battlemaster and use fear to keep enemies away, you don't even need sentinel any more, and your build is achieved at level 6 (or level 8 if you want to add in something like mobile so you can repeat it every round on a new creature if necessary).

and level 6 or 8 is not that uncommon. obviously not as easy to get to as if you need fewer levels, but if you're playing to level 12 or so, either of those are probably well before the halfway point, and it isn't like you're getting nothing out of it before the full thing is done.

[Maxilian]

Damn you flaggers, it's the end of November when we finally get Volo in Japan.

The extra options really do make me excited. Unlike classes, you can have only one race, so adding lots of races wouldn't make character builds over-complicated either.

That's true, though that's why i'm really itching for new feats

Note: We are not getting it anytime soon either in DR, there is only 1 store that is registered with Wizard, and the only thing that they sell of Dungeons and Dragons are dices... (and quite expensive)

[Asmotherion]

I don't have it in hand yet, however from the OP's summary of new races, I don't really see something interesting... at least for my standards.

Hopefully we get to see some nice epic monsters, like Force and Prismatic Dragons, as well as Titans, a more epic Demilich variant (as in 3.5 Demilich) etc, to boost Epic Campain Contnent. I'm really tired of making PC npcs for my epic campains, and there is a limit to how many times I can recycle the same character in the same scenario XD

[Maxilian]

I don't have it in hand yet, however from the OP's summary of new races, I don't really see something interesting... at least for my standards.

Hopefully we get to see some nice epic monsters, like Force and Prismatic Dragons, as well as Titans, a more epic Demilich variant (as in 3.5 Demilich) etc, to boost Epic Campain Contnent. I'm really tired of making PC npcs for my epic campains, and there is a limit to how many times I can recycle the same character in the same scenario XD

It doesn't seen to include any Dragon, but there are some Giants and there are also many variations of the monster races as NPC mobs (so it will be easier to use any of this races as a main enemy cause you will have enough variation), a couple more dinasours, some animals (like a Dolphin!) and some things that have demon and/or devil like names (Tanaruk, Shoosuva and Maw Demon) and more caster minions (Evoker, Ilussionist, Necromancer and so on)


Note: No demilich for you, but you got a Mind Flayer Lich!

[Kane0]

Would that be called an Illilich?

[JackPhoenix]

Would that be called an Illilich?

Illithilich, actually. Or more commonly, Alhoon

[2D8HP]

Hoping that just as Storm Kings Thunder arrived early at my FLGS, I stopped by yesterday to see if Volo's Guide was in yet.

No (I bought Kobolds Guide to Plots and Campaigns, and Shadowrun: Court of Shadows instead).

:frown:

Then I saw this thread.

So I called my not-so FLGS.

"We have it but it does not go on sale until tomorrow".

Thwarted!

:furious:

So I called a F not-quite-as LGS.

Success!

:biggrin:

It is now mine!

http://dnd.wizards.com/sites/default/files/media/images/head-banner/Volos_Monster_manual_alt.png

Mwahahahahaha!





HA!

(I now feel such pity for those poor souls who lack this treasure. How do you bear it?)

Note, there is a disclaimer:
Wizards of the Coast does not vouch for, guarantee, or provide s my promise regarding the validity of the information provided in this volume by Volothamp Geddarm.
Do not trust Volo. Do not go on quests offered by Volo. Do not listen to Volo. Avoid being seen with him for risk of guilt by association. If Volo appears in your campaign, your DM is trying to kill your character in a manner that can be blamed on your own actions. The DM is probably trying to do that anyway, but with Volo's appearance, you know for sure. We're not convinced that Elminster's commentary is all that trustworthy either, but he turned us into flumps the last time we mentioned him in one of these disclaimers.

[Kane0]

Note, there is a disclaimer:
Wizards of the Coast does not vouch for, guarantee, or provide s my promise regarding the validity of the information provided in this volume by Volothamp Geddarm.
Do not trust Volo. Do not go on quests offered by Volo. Do not listen to Volo. Avoid being seen with him for risk of guilt by association. If Volo appears in your campaign, your DM is trying to kill your character in a manner that can be blamed on your own actions. The DM is probably trying to do that anyway, but with Volo's appearance, you know for sure. We're not convinced that Elminster's commentary is all that trustworthy either, but he turned us into flumps the last time we mentioned him in one of these disclaimers.



So glad that the devs still have a sense of humor.

[DragonSorcererX]

No Charisma Kobold? B*llsh*t! Who needs dog faced lizards, we need the dragonborn version of halflings, since everyone has their own halfling version, dwarves and elves have both gnome subraces (the dwarf gnome and the elf gnome), hobgoblins have goblins, ogres have orcs...

[Draco4472]

Tabaxi are Khahiit and Lizardfolk are Argonians.

I CAN MAKE AN ELDER SCROLLS CAMPAIGN!

[Vogonjeltz]

Yeah it sucks, both kobolds (-2 str) and orcs (-2 int) have penalties

Which still makes it a better Kobold than the NPC Kobold from the DMG.

[Dman]

so after reading through all the main races they all definatly seem interesting but im looking foward to personally making a lizardfolk myself. and probobly a triton if I find something cool to do with him or we have a waterbased campaign.

[PeteNutButter]

so after reading through all the main races they all definatly seem interesting but im looking foward to personally making a lizardfolk myself. and probobly a triton if I find something cool to do with him or we have a waterbased campaign.

I really want to play a lizardfolk, but I can't seem to find a niche for em. Stats of a hill dwarf and racials that work with high str or high dex...

[Nishant]

Would someone care to elaborate on what makes the Aasimar so great from this? Someone said something about it having class features, so I'm a bit confused. I have it preordered on Amazon but won't see it for a while, obviously.

[mephnick]

I really want to play a lizardfolk, but I can't seem to find a niche for em. Stats of a hill dwarf and racials that work with high str or high dex...

Honestly with a Con boost, natural armor, natural attack and shoring up Wis I'd probably just take the slight Str/Dex hit and play a well-rounded barbarian. It's also thematic.

[Dman]

I really want to play a lizardfolk, but I can't seem to find a niche for em. Stats of a hill dwarf and racials that work with high str or high dex...

im thinking some sort of rogue the stat increase dosnt help but I like the idea of using a dart or blowgun needle dipped in poison.

[MaxWilson]

starts off big. gets less valuable as time goes on. never worthless, mind you, just less valuable. at some point, the +5 foot reach will be worth more than the extra feat. it likely won't be at level 1 (except in a few specific scenarios). it still probably won't be at level 4 (unless the party spends a lot of time in 10 foot wide hallways and has 3 or more melee characters, in which case it's pretty nice). it might not even be at level 8. but eventually, the feat stops being such a huge increase and you're better off as a bugbear than as a variant human.

What do you imagine being done with +5' reach that wouldn't be done as well or better by a variant human with the Mobile feat?

[NecessaryWeevil]

Regarding Kobolds, keep in mind that Sunlight Sensitivity only triggers if you or your target are in direct sunlight. If you're underground or inside, you're fine. If it's raining or cloudy, you're fine. If you're in a forest or even a city with lots of tall buildings, you're probably fine.

I'm currently playing a Kobold Barbarian (with dips in Fighter and Rogue). I manage to get advantage from Pack Tactics nearly every turn and rarely suffer from Sunlight Sensitivity. I'm tearing things up because I'm hitting on most attacks and have 4X the chances for a critical (dual wielding with advantage).

Granted, these things are DM-dependent, my party is fairly low-optimization, and my DM waived the Strength penalty so that I could multiclass. But the point is, in my experience Pack Tactics more than makes up for Sunlight Sensitivity.

[DrDinocrusher]

Would someone care to elaborate on what makes the Aasimar so great from this? Someone said something about it having class features, so I'm a bit confused. I have it preordered on Amazon but won't see it for a while, obviously.

I think the main reason is that their transformation abilities offer a pretty significant damage increase. Adding your level worth of radiant/necrotic damage onto every attack adds up really fast particularly on a class like monk or fighter. And you can do some silly niche builds like the super saiyan light cleric scourge aasimar.

[LudicSavant]

I think the main reason is that their transformation abilities offer a pretty significant damage increase. Adding your level worth of radiant/necrotic damage onto every attack adds up really fast particularly on a class like monk or fighter. And you can do some silly niche builds like the super saiyan light cleric scourge aasimar.

It's added onto one attack / round, not every attack.

[DrDinocrusher]

It's added onto one attack / round, not every attack.

Ah, good point. Still, that damage adds up over time.

[Dman]

What do you imagine being done with +5' reach that wouldn't be done as well or better by a variant human with the Mobile feat?

Because the original argument was V-Human vs Bugbear who gets bonus reach. and feats more or less averaging out especially when both sides can take it. I mean yeah V-Human is one step ahead wih a free feat and stats but as he said you lose out alittle on your 3rd stat and thats provided you dont find any magic items either.

Mobile vs the bugbear is also a whole other can of worms since your talking about 2 different characters then.

[HoarsHalberd]

I honestly think people grossly overestimate the power of v-humans in this game. If there was a feat that offered: +1 dex, +2d6 damage on first attack in a surprise round, darkvision, +5 ft reach and double carry capacity, or +1 strength, +1 crit die, darkvision and relentless endurance I know a hell of a lot of builds that would take them.

Heck darkvision alone is a huge boon over the variant humans in any dungeon/underdark heavy campaign.

[DragonSorcererX]

I honestly think people grossly overestimate the power of v-humans in this game. If there was a feat that offered: +1 dex, +2d6 damage on first attack in a surprise round, darkvision, +5 ft reach and double carry capacity, or +1 strength, +1 crit die, darkvision and relentless endurance I know a hell of a lot of builds that would take them.

Heck darkvision alone is a huge boon over the variant humans in any dungeon/underdark heavy campaign.

Most people only take human as a race because of the Feat... Humans are the most boring race, that's why we have Aasimar, Tieflings, Genasi...

[Maxilian]

No Charisma Kobold? B*llsh*t! Who needs dog faced lizards, we need the dragonborn version of halflings, since everyone has their own halfling version, dwarves and elves have both gnome subraces (the dwarf gnome and the elf gnome), hobgoblins have goblins, ogres have orcs...

The no Charisma for Kobold makes me sad, but that's not going to stop me from playing a Kobold Sorcerer Dragon Bloodline

[Maxilian]

What do you imagine being done with +5' reach that wouldn't be done as well or better by a variant human with the Mobile feat?

The extra +5 reach its better than what it sounds, this is the wording:

Long-Limbed: When you make a melee attack on your turn. Your Reach for it its 5 feet greater than normal.

That means that that also work with many Cantrips (like Booming Blade) and that it also work with any spell that base itself in a melee attack (that's so good!)

[mgshamster]

Most people only take human as a race because of the Feat... Humans are the most boring race, that's why we have Aasimar, Tieflings, Genasi...

I only have one human PC, and that's a tomelock. The rest are other races: gnome Ranger, halfling thief, water genasi druid, Tiefling monk, dragonborn cleric, dwarf sorc.

I mean, sure, the vuman is the "best." But when the best in the class has an A- and the worst in the class has a B+, we're talking about rather subtle differences between options that are good no matter what you choose.

[Aett_Thorn]

The extra +5 reach its better than what it sounds, this is the wording:

Long-Limbed: When you make a melee attack on your turn. Your Reach for it its 5 feet greater than normal.

That means that that also work with many Cantrips (like Booming Blade) and that it also work with any spell that base itself in a melee attack (that's so good!)

Hmmm...a melee spell attack-focused creature that doesn't need to worry about many opportunity attacks if they deliver the spell, and then back out of range. That could be fun.

[DivisibleByZero]

The extra +5 reach its better than what it sounds, this is the wording:

Long-Limbed: When you make a melee attack on your turn. Your Reach for it its 5 feet greater than normal.

That means that that also work with many Cantrips (like Booming Blade) and that it also work with any spell that base itself in a melee attack (that's so good!)

It changes your reach for melee attacks.
It does not change the range of the spell from 5' to 10'
You need the Spell Sniper feat for that.

[Aett_Thorn]

It changes your reach for melee attacks.
It does not change the range of the spell from 5' to 10'
You need the Spell Sniper feat for that.

Might not work with the SCAG cantrips, but will work with Shocking Grasp and several other touch-range spells.

[DivisibleByZero]

Hmmm...a melee spell attack-focused creature that doesn't need to worry about many opportunity attacks if they deliver the spell, and then back out of range. That could be fun.

Might not work with the SCAG cantrips, but will work with Shocking Grasp and several other touch-range spells.

Shocking Grasp from range in order to avoid OA is redundant. That's already what Shocking Grasp's rider does.

[Aett_Thorn]

Shocking Grasp from range in order to avoid OA is redundant. That's already what Shocking Grasp's rider does.

Sure, but there are other touch-ranged spells out there. Vampiric Touch, Bestow Curse, Contagion, Inflict Wounds, etc.

Could also mean (if your DM allows) that you can use beneficial touch spells on other PCs without having to get as close to them (likely highly situational, but might give you 5' of movement back if you need it compared to other races).

[Maxilian]

Regarding Kobolds, keep in mind that Sunlight Sensitivity only triggers if you or your target are in direct sunlight. If you're underground or inside, you're fine. If it's raining or cloudy, you're fine. If you're in a forest or even a city with lots of tall buildings, you're probably fine.

I'm currently playing a Kobold Barbarian (with dips in Fighter and Rogue). I manage to get advantage from Pack Tactics nearly every turn and rarely suffer from Sunlight Sensitivity. I'm tearing things up because I'm hitting on most attacks and have 4X the chances for a critical (dual wielding with advantage).

Granted, these things are DM-dependent, my party is fairly low-optimization, and my DM waived the Strength penalty so that I could multiclass. But the point is, in my experience Pack Tactics more than makes up for Sunlight Sensitivity.

Also the Advantage given by Pack Tactics, helps in those case that you get disadvantage from Sunlight Sensitivity

[Maxilian]

It changes your reach for melee attacks.
It does not change the range of the spell from 5' to 10'
You need the Spell Sniper feat for that.

Its true that you would need the Spell Sniper for the SCAG cantrips but not for most touch spell

[Gastronomie]

Sure, but there are other touch-ranged spells out there. Vampiric Touch, Bestow Curse, Contagion, Inflict Wounds, etc.

Could also mean (if your DM allows) that you can use beneficial touch spells on other PCs without having to get as close to them (likely highly situational, but might give you 5' of movement back if you need it compared to other races).Yeah, but Find Familiar + Flyby Owl is better for that purpose.

[Belac93]

An interesting thing about the mix of pack tactics and sunlight sensitivity, is that you will rarely (while outside) have advantage or disadvantage. This makes kobolds interesting, because they will pretty much always be on even footing, as long as one of their allies is near. It doesn't matter if they are poisoned, prone, in sunlight, and their target is invisible and at long range, they will still have a normal roll as long as one of their allies is there.

So, it seems that one of the strengths of a kobold is not just having advantage, but never having disadvantage.

[PeteNutButter]

An interesting thing about the mix of pack tactics and sunlight sensitivity, is that you will rarely (while outside) have advantage or disadvantage. This makes kobolds interesting, because they will pretty much always be on even footing, as long as one of their allies is near. It doesn't matter if they are poisoned, prone, in sunlight, and their target is invisible and at long range, they will still have a normal roll as long as one of their allies is there.

So, it seems that one of the strengths of a kobold is not just having advantage, but never having disadvantage.

Kobold archers outside = always prone. Give them disadvantage to hit you with ranged attacks...

Or freely shoot in melee... etc.

Basically whenever you'd normally be giving yourself disadvantage, it isn't a concern. Lance within 5ft... no issue.

[RickAllison]

Kobold archers outside = always prone. Give them disadvantage to hit you with ranged attacks...

Or freely shoot in melee... etc.

Basically whenever you'd normally be giving yourself disadvantage, it isn't a concern. Lance within 5ft... no issue.

Use those heavy weapons that small PCs normally avoid!

[Osrogue]

Use those heavy weapons that small PCs normally avoid!

Now I'm picturing a 3 foot tall kobold wielding a hammer bigger than its body.

[RickAllison]

Now I'm picturing a 3 foot tall kobold wielding a hammer bigger than its body.

"You no take candle!" Proceeds to wallop the intruder with a hammer bigger than the intruder!

[Maxilian]

Yeah, but Find Familiar + Flyby Owl is better for that purpose.

Well... now combine it with Death Cleric and the ability to target 2 targets instead of one

[JackPhoenix]

Well... now combine it with Death Cleric and the ability to target 2 targets instead of one

As Chill Touch is the only cantrip compatible with Reaper, you don't have to worry about that, as you can't use it through the familiar anyway.

[Ursus the Grim]

An interesting thing about the mix of pack tactics and sunlight sensitivity, is that you will rarely (while outside) have advantage or disadvantage. This makes kobolds interesting, because they will pretty much always be on even footing, as long as one of their allies is near. It doesn't matter if they are poisoned, prone, in sunlight, and their target is invisible and at long range, they will still have a normal roll as long as one of their allies is there.

So, it seems that one of the strengths of a kobold is not just having advantage, but never having disadvantage.

I think there's another strength here. Kobolds make Lucky even more broken. If you're in the sunlight and not triggering pack tactics, you get three rolls with Super Advantage to throw around.


I love lizardfolk, and I really really want to make this work, but I'm just not sure. It has a overfull kit with scales, natural weapon etc, but doesn't have the right stat boosts to really benefit from it on point buy. With con and wis, I wouldn't be surprised to see mostly clerics or druids. Rangers and monks are tempting, but the lack of a boost to dex or str makes it hard to justify. Perhaps shillelagh builds are the niche here. Interestingly scales +defense style appears to give 14 + dex AC RAW.

Druid was my first guess - Con and Wis are great, and its natural armor is better than normal druid armor.

At 12:10 last night/this morning I actually started tinkering. I'm making mine an Assassin Rogue/Fighter.

Unfortunately, his Dex is only 15 at start, so that is where most of my ASIs are going to go, but you get some good synergy in other places.

With 13+Shield+Dex AC, you can start with a AC 17 with very little investment. By RAW with Defense Style, an AC of 18. Unlike many characters, you never have to worry about the Dexterity maximum. You also don't have to worry about Stealth Disadvantage. Or paying for armor, for that matter.

If you miss with a sneak attack you can throw in Hungry Jaws as a Bonus Action to not only have another chance at landing your sweet, sweet d6s on that round but also getting a few temp HP. And Hungry Jaws isn't 'used up' unless you hit.

Wisdom contributes to Perception, which is always useful, as well as some of the other skills that work in a survival setting.

He is also fairly versatile. Using a Longbow at range, if an enemy closes he can pull his shield as his 'object interaction' and bite with his regular action. Most characters would have to choose whether they wanted to draw their shield or sword in that situation.

I think the build will really shine at level five. Rogue 3/Fighter 2. On an Assassinate turn, as I am reading it, he will make his base rapier attack, plus his bonus Hungry Jaws. While this isn't really better than a TWF rogue, he has the added benefit of having a higher AC than the Rogue, probably more hit points, and a temp HP pool (which is about 15% for my character.) A swim speed also means he's going to be far better in the water than a bog-standard elven or halfling rogue - and water's a great place for concealment.

They are also nearly as good as the Monk in the hypothetical 'wake up without gear' adventure. Natural armor, unarmed strike, and the ability to make weapons during a short rest?

You're going to be behind the Dex 17 rogue by one point on attack and damage rolls, but you're going to be ahead on HP, AC, and badassery.

[Giant2005]

The Yuan-ti and Kobolds are both pretty excellent, and Bugbears are useful too. Yet the thing that excites me most is the new beasts for Druids to transform into.
Frenzy Barb 5/Druid X builds are even more powerful with a new king forms at Druid levels 9 (actually 8), 12, and 15 (Quetzalcoatlus, Stegosaurus and Brontosaurus respectively).

[Zene]

Kobold archers outside = always prone. Give them disadvantage to hit you with ranged attacks...

Or freely shoot in melee... etc.

Basically whenever you'd normally be giving yourself disadvantage, it isn't a concern. Lance within 5ft... no issue.

Hah that's awesome. Kobold archer with pack tactics in the sunlight can take every shot with his eyes closed, at an underwater target, while under the effects of Otto's Irresistable Dance, and shoot perfectly fine.

Time to play around with some Kobold builds.


It's added onto one attack / round, not every attack.

The posts I'm seeing have it as once per turn, not once per round. So the old rogue sneak attack trick of "one Hasted attack now, one readied attack for when the next guy goes, and one reaction attack" is applicable here.

[Zene]

The Yuan-ti and Kobolds are both pretty excellent, and Bugbears are useful too. Yet the thing that excites me most is the new beasts for Druids to transform into.
Frenzy Barb 5/Druid X builds are even more powerful with a new king forms at Druid levels 9 (actually 8), 12, and 15 (Quetzalcoatlus, Stegosaurus and Brontosaurus respectively).

Yeah but only if they've actually seen one before, right? Is there a way to get around that? I can't see how I could believably build "dinosaur safari" into my backstory.

[JackPhoenix]

He is also fairly versatile. Using a Longbow at range, if an enemy closes he can pull his shield as his 'object interaction' and bite with his regular action. Most characters would have to choose whether they wanted to draw their shield or sword in that situation.

Not that the pulling out his shield would do him any good, as actually donning shield to get its benefit is an action, not object interaction.

[gfishfunk]

Yeah but only if they've actually seen one before, right? Is there a way to get around that? I can't see how I could believably build "dinosaur safari" into my backstory.

"I was inspired to become a druid after seeing the following animals with the circus: [insert the best and most awesome animals]. Then, I worked with the animals at the circus. Then, when I became a druid, the circle elders told me you are now able to turn into the following animals [same list]. Then they gave me 100,000 gp." That backstory should get you a lot of benefits.

[Ursus the Grim]

Not that the pulling out his shield would do him any good, as actually donning shield to get its benefit is an action, not object interaction.

Fair enough. He could still use Hungry Jaws for a bonus action if he hasn't already and still be no worse off than a conventional rogue.

[JackPhoenix]

Fair enough. He could still use Hungry Jaws for a bonus action if he hasn't already and still be no worse off than a conventional rogue.

Is Hungry Jaws a finesse weapon? Because otherwise no sneak attack. Still better than nothing.

[SharkForce]

The posts I'm seeing have it as once per turn, not once per round. So the old rogue sneak attack trick of "one Hasted attack now, one readied attack for when the next guy goes, and one reaction attack" is applicable here.

ready an action burns your reaction actually. you would get to use it twice, tops.


What do you imagine being done with +5' reach that wouldn't be done as well or better by a variant human with the Mobile feat?

hadn't noticed the "on your turn" part, that makes it a bit less interesting (you can't polearm mastery + sentinel an enemy in place 15 feet away). however, it does allow for some interesting things. as noted, it increases the range of touch spells. it allows you to fight from the second (or third with a reach weapon) rank of an adventuring party while still in melee. it allows you to cast touch spells from the second rank. it allows you to focus all your attacks on one target at 15 feet and move away without provoking opportunity attacks even if there are multiple enemies with 10 foot reach, because mobile requires that you attack a target to prevent opportunity attacks. it allows you to attack from your front row to hit enemies in the 3rd enemy row instead of the second. it allows you to attack the enemy second row from your second row with a polearm. it allows you to attack with a weapon that isn't a polearm and still have reach, meaning it's a small damage bonus if you've decided for some reason not to rely on polearm master. it allows rogues to sneak attack from the second row with a melee weapon while still having the first row for protection.

it might not be worth it for every character, which the bonus feat from variant human certainly is... there's pretty much no character that couldn't make good use of a bonus feat. but for the right character, i could definitely see this being worthwhile.

[Giant2005]

"I was inspired to become a druid after seeing the following animals with the circus: [insert the best and most awesome animals]. Then, I worked with the animals at the circus. Then, when I became a druid, the circle elders told me you are now able to turn into the following animals [same list]. Then they gave me 100,000 gp." That backstory should get you a lot of benefits.

Speaking of Druids, has anyone else decided that Kobolds make ridiculously good Druids?
Sunlight Sensitivity disappears while Wildshaped but Pack Tactics doesn't. It is easy advantage for any animal form.

[Maxilian]

As Chill Touch is the only cantrip compatible with Reaper, you don't have to worry about that, as you can't use it through the familiar anyway.

Was actually thinking on the "Improved Reaper" ability (lvl 17)

[Maxilian]

Speaking of Druids, has anyone else decided that Kobolds make ridiculously good Druids?
Sunlight Sensitivity disappears while Wildshaped but Pack Tactics doesn't. It is easy advantage for any animal form.

That's pretty nice, haven't though about that

[Envyus]

Illithilich, actually. Or more commonly, Alhoon

Actually these are different things in Volo's

The Alhoon is pretty much a Mind Flayer that not being willing wait long enough to learn the needed magic to become a Lich and used a shortcut to become a freewilled undead. The Illithilich meanwhile is when they go all the way and learn 9th level spells and the needed Imprisonment spell and fully learn how to become a lich.

[DragonSorcererX]

Actually these are different things in Volo's

The Alhoon is pretty much a Mind Flayer that not being willing wait long enough to learn the needed magic to become a Lich and used a shortcut to become a freewilled undead. The Illithilich meanwhile is when they go all the way and learn 9th level spells and the needed Imprisonment spell and fully learn how to become a lich.

So they literally brought back the weirdest monster variations back... is there anything about Thoon? And is there anything about Draconic Creatures?

[SailorNash]

I'm liking the sound of a Druid Lizardman. That could be loads of fun. Lizardfolk are one of my favorite races, and I was already in the process of rolling up a Ghostwise Moon Druid. Now I've got something to think about.

If I can ask without getting too specific, how is the AC bonus written? Something that would carry over to forms (like Mage Armor or a Barbarian's Unarmored Defense), or lost with other base-race abilities (like Darkvision)?

Likewise for the bite attack...something that you could do as an animal, provided it's something with sharp pointy teeth? Or lost until you're back in caster form?

[DivisibleByZero]

I'm liking the sound of a Druid Lizardman. That could be loads of fun. Lizardfolk are one of my favorite races, and I was already in the process of rolling up a Ghostwise Moon Druid. Now I've got something to think about.

If I can ask without getting too specific, how is the AC bonus written? Something that would carry over to forms (like Mage Armor or a Barbarian's Unarmored Defense), or lost with other base-race abilities (like Darkvision)?

Likewise for the bite attack...something that you could do as an animal, provided it's something with sharp pointy teeth? Or lost until you're back in caster form?

They're physical racial features. They'd be lost with wild shape, regardless of how they were written. When you physically cease to be a lizardman, you cease to have physical lizardman features.

[nilshai]

Speaking of Druids, has anyone else decided that Kobolds make ridiculously good Druids?
Sunlight Sensitivity disappears while Wildshaped but Pack Tactics doesn't. It is easy advantage for any animal form.


You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so.

You could argue Sunlight Sensitivity not being a benefit, but as a dm i wouldn't let this fly.


They're physical racial features. They'd be lost with wild shape, regardless of how they were written. When you physically cease to be a lizardman, you cease to have physical lizardman features.

Stuff with a mouth can also bite stuff. Also, if you interpret it differently, you would never ever retain any racial features, because you are never physically capable of doing nonphysical things.

[mephnick]

You could argue Sunlight Sensitivity not being a benefit, but as a dm i wouldn't let this fly.

I would think the darkvision and sunlight sensitivity are inherently linked, I mean, you basically have both because of your environment. So you either lose both or keep both.

[DivisibleByZero]

Stuff with a mouth can also bite stuff. Also, if you interpret it differently, you would never ever retain any racial features, because you are never physically capable of doing nonphysical things.

Was referring to AC calc. It doesn't stack. It's gone.
(And on that subject, the barb's Unarmored doesn't stack either, and was used as an example of one that does, which is wrong. If wild shaped, you can gain the benefits of either UD or natural armor, not both. They are two different calculations. You have to choose.)

[SailorNash]

Was referring to AC calc. It doesn't stack. It's gone.
(and on that subject, the barb's Unarmored doesn't stack either, and was used as an example of one that does, which is wrong)

AC calculations don't stack, if a form already has Natural Armor. You take the highest.

Not all forms have Natural Armor, though. In that case, there's nothing to stack.

[DivisibleByZero]

AC calculations don't stack, if a form already has Natural Armor. You take the highest.

Not all forms have Natural Armor, though. In that case, there's nothing to stack.

Read the post I was referring to. The one that incorrectly states flat out that Barb Unarmored Defense carries over.
It isn't that simple.

In the hypothetical case of a druid/barb, while wild shaped he would have to choose between the beast's AC (with natural armor) or recalculate for 10+BeastDex+Beast con (without natural armor).

[Naanomi]

Wait, Tritons have a racial ability to survive deep ocean pressures? Which means by absence, Water Gensai can't? Disappointing :/

[DragonSorcererX]

Wait, Tritons have a racial ability to survive deep ocean pressures? Which means by absence, Water Gensai can't? Disappointing :/
Deep ocean pressures? What is this? Sci-fi?

[Sigreid]

Most people only take human as a race because of the Feat... Humans are the most boring race, that's why we have Aasimar, Tieflings, Genasi...

When I take human it's typically because being one I have a pretty good idea what they are like, and what they are capable of and have no difficulty role playing them accurately.

[DragonSorcererX]

When I take human it's typically because being one I have a pretty good idea what they are like, and what they are capable of and have no difficulty role playing them accurately.

You quoted me but I don't think you got what I was saying... I said that Aasimar, Tieflings, Genasi and other homo-superior are humans, but cool.

[Sigreid]

You quoted me but I don't think you got what I was saying... I said that Aasimar, Tieflings, Genasi and other homo-superior are humans, but cool.

I was actually commenting on the idea that the only reason anyone plays humans is for the feat, because otherwise they are boring. The point was that sometimes I just want to be human.

[DragonSorcererX]

I was actually commenting on the idea that the only reason anyone plays humans is for the feat, because otherwise they are boring. The point was that sometimes I just want to be human.

When you say human you mean "Boromir Human" or "Aragorn Human"? Because Aragorn is not human... The Dunedain are basically 75% Human and 25% Elf (while the Half-Elves of Middle Earth are 75% Elf and 25% Human).

[Naanomi]

When you say human you mean "Boromir Human" or "Aragorn Human"? Because Aragorn is not human... The Dunedain are basically 75% Human and 25% Elf (while the Half-Elves of Middle Earth are 75% Elf and 25% Human).
I'd say Aragorn is a variant human and Boromir is a stock human... or vice versa

[Belac93]

Add me to the 'plays humans for the sake of playing humans' club. It doesn't matter if it's normal or variant (although I usually pick variant for optimization), I usually play them because I often come up with a character concept that does not have a fixed race, and so default to human because it's the simplest, and my concepts often start looking human. If I want to play a rogue who steals pastries for his enormous appetite, I'll probably imagine him as a short human (although that particular concept, now that I think of it, would be hilarious as a half-orc), and so I'll play him as a human. The fact that I can take Mobile has nothing to do with it.

[Zene]

When I take human it's typically because being one I have a pretty good idea what they are like, and what they are capable of and have no difficulty role playing them accurately.


Hmm, good point. I'm looking forward to playing a kobold, but there are a lot of rp aspects I have no idea how I'll handle.

Plus, I'm not sure I'll be ok with doing a kobold voice for an entire session. I can't even imagine playing a kenku --having to speak in mimicry would drive me crazy.

[Envyus]

Hmm, good point. I'm looking forward to playing a kobold, but there are a lot of rp aspects I have no idea how I'll handle.

Plus, I'm not sure I'll be ok with doing a kobold voice for an entire session. I can't even imagine playing a kenku --having to speak in mimicry would drive me crazy.

The book mentions you don't have to do this for Kenku.


ROLEPLAYING A KENKU
If you're playing a kenku, constant attempts to mimic noises can come across as confusing or irritating rather than entertaining. You can just as easily describe the sounds your character makes and what they mean. Be clear about your character's intentions unless you're deliberately aiming for inscrutable or mysterious.
You might say, "Snapper makes the noise of a hammer slowly and rhythmically tapping a stone to show how bored he is. He plays with his dagger and studies the Lords' Alliance agent sitting at the bar." Creating a vocabulary of noises for the other players to decode might sound like fun, but it can prove distracting and could slow down the game.


On the Kobold voices I am just reminded of D&D online.
http://soundboards.cubicleninja.com/

[Belac93]

I can't even imagine playing a kenku --having to speak in mimicry would drive me crazy.

I'm really looking forward to it. :smallbiggrin: I'll just describe the sounds he makes, but I really want to speak with only the words the character has heard.

[Sigreid]

When you say human you mean "Boromir Human" or "Aragorn Human"? Because Aragorn is not human... The Dunedain are basically 75% Human and 25% Elf (while the Half-Elves of Middle Earth are 75% Elf and 25% Human).

Since I'm not that into LotR, I'll say Robin Hood human.

[Nicrosil]

Hah that's awesome. Kobold archer with pack tactics in the sunlight can take every shot with his eyes closed, at an underwater target, while under the effects of Otto's Irresistable Dance, and shoot perfectly fine.

Time to play around with some Kobold builds.


Kobold cheese returns! I don't think we've reached Pun-Pun levels of absurdity, not for lack of trying :smallwink:

For kobolds and orcs, do you think it would make them too powerful if you removed the negative ability modifier? Or, in the kobold's case, replace it with a +1? I mean really, small and sunlight sensitivity are bad enough already, and surely grovel and pack tactics aren't that powerful.

I'm already thinking of homebrewed subraces for the kobold; a regular kobold has the grovel ability and a +1 Con, dragonwrought has a +1 Cha and an elemental cantrip (firebolt, ice knife, acid splash, poison spray, or shocking grasp), and an urd that gets a flight speed and a +1 Wis? Not too sure about that last one.

[Madbox]

I plan to make a Lizardfolk monk. The Dex will be a bit underpowered at first, but the book says the bite is an unarmed attack. That means that I have an unarmed strike at early levels that does a d6 instead of a d4, making for a lower hit chance with slightly better average damage and way better crits in the early game. Furthermore, there is no stated limit on number of bites per turn, so I could flurry of blows that, for three chomps per turn.

I also like the racial feature that lets them make darts out of bones. Works great for a monk, I'll never need to buy any darts.


There has been talk at my local shop of making an all-kobold party, just for lulz.

[Molemanking]

I'm trying to wrap my head around Kenku Magic users. Since Kenku can't speak except for mimicking any sounds they hear, then they can only cast spells that they've heard others cast.

[Draco4472]

I just found the AL rules for Volo's.

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/197432/Volos-Guide-to-Monsters-A-DD-Adventurers-League-Reference-5e?affiliate_id=925821

Great that every race is available, but being forced to integrate certain things into my backstory seems a poor choice on Wizard's behalf. Why must I be a goblin from the Cragmaw tribe? Cannot I be a goblin raised by humans who was picked on by the human children for being a goblin? Although I could just give him a distant relative among the tribe and technically be following AL rules.

Also, restrictions of factions seems equally poor. I want my Kobold Bard to be sided with the Harpers, not the enclave.

[Sigreid]

I'm trying to wrap my head around Kenku Magic users. Since Kenku can't speak except for mimicking any sounds they hear, then they can only cast spells that they've heard others cast.

Not really. since RAW the words are irrelevant and only the tone, pitch, rhythm etc. matter they can do it but their spells may sound very different. I like the idea of it sounding like bird song.

[Naanomi]

Anything good for wildshape or Beastmaster companions (old or new?)

EDIT: Or summon spells?

[Daphne]

Anything good for wildshape ?

Deinonychus is a CR 1 beast that can make three attacks in one turn, I think its the stongest CR 1 creatue druids can tranform.

[DivisibleByZero]

I plan to make a Lizardfolk monk. The Dex will be a bit underpowered at first, but the book says the bite is an unarmed attack. That means that I have an unarmed strike at early levels that does a d6 instead of a d4, making for a lower hit chance with slightly better average damage and way better crits in the early game. Furthermore, there is no stated limit on number of bites per turn, so I could flurry of blows that, for three chomps per turn.

Natural attacks, while technically unarmed because they aren't manufactured weapons, are not the same as a Monk's unarmed attacks. Most notably because teeth/claws/etc aren't Monk weapons.... no natural weapons are in the Monk's weapon list.

[Discord]

So on page 98 of Volo's Guide to Monsters, it mentions ways to customize Yuan-Ti. While of course these customization's are meant for monsters made by the DM, I think in home games I could see a DM allowing a player to exchange some part of the player race for 1 or 2 of these customization.

What does everyone else think?

[MaxWilson]

Speaking of Druids, has anyone else decided that Kobolds make ridiculously good Druids?
Sunlight Sensitivity disappears while Wildshaped but Pack Tactics doesn't. It is easy advantage for any animal form.

I'd rather be a Goblin Moon Druid honestly. Pass Without Trace + Nimble Escape? Yes, please!


Anything good for wildshape or Beastmaster companions (old or new?)

Not from Volos, but, I just picked up Storm Giant's Thunder and noticed that it has a CR 5 Hulking Crab which is pretty good for Polymorph or Wildshape. Better AC and damage than the Giant Crocodile, though with no restraining (only grapple) and slightly lower to-hit and HP.

[Giant2005]

Anything good for wildshape or Beastmaster companions (old or new?)

EDIT: Or summon spells?

I only considered Wildshape, but as I said back in post 117, the Druid has new top-tier forms for levels 9, 12, and 15 in the Quetzalcoatlus, Stegosaurus, and Brontosaurus. I counted the Quetzalcoatlus as a level 9 form, but you actually gain access to it at level 8.
The following is their damage per hit (by default they only have 1 attack but that can be increased by Extra Attack, Frenzy, and/or War Priest).
Quetzalcoatlus (Druid 8): 6d6+2
Stegosaurus (Druid 12): 6d6+5
Brontosaurus (Druid 15): 6d8+5

[Naanomi]

Very nice wildshape options... all the more reason to be a Hermit and have your 'hermit secret' be 'intimate knowledge of dinosaurs' :smallbiggrin:

[TheRedTemplar]

Seeing as I have the book myself, I'm really taking a shine to the Lizardfolk, with their amazingly flavorful ribbons (Crafting Weapons and Shields out of the bones and skin of enemies? Cool.) and nice fluff (these guys seem to me like Rogal Dorn from If The Emperor Had A Text-To-Speech Device if Rogal Dorn was an absent-minded cannibal).

In terms of stats, however, I was disappointed they didn't get a Strength or Dexterity boost, but their Crunch backs up their Fluff by being literal Crunch: They can use their maw to make an Unarmed Strike (it says 'Unarmed Strike' in the wording, so it's the same as a Monk's fist!) with a base 1d6 piercing damage, and they have the Natural Armor from their scales that dragon sorcerers get, not to mention a swim speed, hold breath, and the Hungry Jaws ability, along with two free skills related to survival.

At first I was kind of at a loss at what to do, but I've decided on something I find both thematic and fun: A Barbarian/Monk who is based around survival, and more importantly, grappling. I've taken the first level in Monk to get the bonus to Dexterity saves, and I'm using his Natural Armor over Unarmored Defense since my AC would be higher. Instead of using his fists to attack, he uses his bite, gaining the Monk's fun Unarmored Strike-based powers with a 1d6 weapon instead of a 1d4 one. Took the next level in barbarian and the next in monk, making him a Barbarian 1/Monk 2, with Rages, Natural Armor, and two Unarmored Strikes dealing 1d6+str damage, or three of those 1d6 attacks if I use Flurry of Blows.

The fun part comes from the fact that not only can I grapple people, but I don't need to bash them together to hurt them, instead I just have to chow down, leaving me free to have two people in both hands and not need to worry about damage, since I can rip and tear into their fleshy hides with a toothy grin. The Rage resistance, Hungry Jaws panic temp HP, and his aforementioned literal crunch make him a surprisingly beefy tank (thanks to the +2 con!) who can still pull his own weight by doing a great amount of damage to the hapless weenies he grapples.

As a character, I've decided to give him the voice of Heavy from TF2 and make him be as out-of-touch as his race is in fluff, leading him to try and 'blend in' to common society by assuming literally every stereotype he's ever heard about the other races is 100% true (keep in mind, these guys are very literal and don't understand metaphors), leading to hilarious situations where he talks like a parent trying to be 'hip and trendy' with his fellow kids. He's an absolute joy.

So, what do you guys think of this build? I'm trying to take advantage of the Lizardfolk's natural talents, and I think it holds up to fluff and crunch, but I was wondering what other people thought about the scaly wonder.

[Sigreid]

Seeing as I have the book myself, I'm really taking a shine to the Lizardfolk, with their amazingly flavorful ribbons (Crafting Weapons and Shields out of the bones and skin of enemies? Cool.) and nice fluff (these guys seem to me like Rogal Dorn from If The Emperor Had A Text-To-Speech Device if Rogal Dorn was an absent-minded cannibal).

In terms of stats, however, I was disappointed they didn't get a Strength or Dexterity boost, but their Crunch backs up their Fluff by being literal Crunch: They can use their maw to make an Unarmed Strike (it says 'Unarmed Strike' in the wording, so it's the same as a Monk's fist!) with a base 1d6 piercing damage, and they have the Natural Armor from their scales that dragon sorcerers get, not to mention a swim speed, hold breath, and the Hungry Jaws ability, along with two free skills related to survival.

At first I was kind of at a loss at what to do, but I've decided on something I find both thematic and fun: A Barbarian/Monk who is based around survival, and more importantly, grappling. I've taken the first level in Monk to get the bonus to Dexterity saves, and I'm using his Natural Armor over Unarmored Defense since my AC would be higher. Instead of using his fists to attack, he uses his bite, gaining the Monk's fun Unarmored Strike-based powers with a 1d6 weapon instead of a 1d4 one. Took the next level in barbarian and the next in monk, making him a Barbarian 1/Monk 2, with Rages, Natural Armor, and two Unarmored Strikes dealing 1d6+str damage, or three of those 1d6 attacks if I use Flurry of Blows.

The fun part comes from the fact that not only can I grapple people, but I don't need to bash them together to hurt them, instead I just have to chow down, leaving me free to have two people in both hands and not need to worry about damage, since I can rip and tear into their fleshy hides with a toothy grin. The Rage resistance, Hungry Jaws panic temp HP, and his aforementioned literal crunch make him a surprisingly beefy tank (thanks to the +2 con!) who can still pull his own weight by doing a great amount of damage to the hapless weenies he grapples.

As a character, I've decided to give him the voice of Heavy from TF2 and make him be as out-of-touch as his race is in fluff, leading him to try and 'blend in' to common society by assuming literally every stereotype he's ever heard about the other races is 100% true (keep in mind, these guys are very literal and don't understand metaphors), leading to hilarious situations where he talks like a parent trying to be 'hip and trendy' with his fellow kids. He's an absolute joy.

So, what do you guys think of this build? I'm trying to take advantage of the Lizardfolk's natural talents, and I think it holds up to fluff and crunch, but I was wondering what other people thought about the scaly wonder.

Seems pretty cool. One thing I would keep track of in the fluff is that they are racially basically sociopaths. Not meaning that they are homicidal, but that they don't feel strong emotions and while they can few others as a valuable asset and protect them as such they don't feel attachment to others in the way that we highly emotional mammals understand it. I see too good ways of doing this. First, you could play very cold. Fine but boring. The other way, that matches with what you have posted above, is to have him over-exaggerate the emotions that he thinks are expected. Loud wailing and literal beating of his chest when he thinks he's supposed to be sad. Smashing or hitting things when he thinks anger is the expected response. Laughing way to hard at jokes (bonus points for inventing a creepy forced lizard laugh that makes others extremely uncomfortable).

[Belac93]

At first I was kind of at a loss at what to do, but I've decided on something I find both thematic and fun: A Barbarian/Monk who is based around survival, and more importantly, grappling. I've taken the first level in Monk to get the bonus to Dexterity saves, and I'm using his Natural Armor over Unarmored Defense since my AC would be higher. Instead of using his fists to attack, he uses his bite, gaining the Monk's fun Unarmored Strike-based powers with a 1d6 weapon instead of a 1d4 one. Took the next level in barbarian and the next in monk, making him a Barbarian 1/Monk 2, with Rages, Natural Armor, and two Unarmored Strikes dealing 1d6+str damage, or three of those 1d6 attacks if I use Flurry of Blows.


If you will be grappling, don't forget about your hold breath ability. See if you can let your DM squeeze the life out of your opponents to make them last less time underwater. With your rage and temporary hit points, you can simply focus all your efforts on total defense and grappling, while swimming deeper every round to take advantage of your high AC.

Imagine the point of view if your PC was an enemy. A character who takes forever to kill is scary enough, but on a timer, eveything just got a whole lot worse.

[MaxWilson]

I only considered Wildshape, but as I said back in post 117, the Druid has new top-tier forms for levels 9, 12, and 15 in the Quetzalcoatlus, Stegosaurus, and Brontosaurus. I counted the Quetzalcoatlus as a level 9 form, but you actually gain access to it at level 8.
The following is their damage per hit (by default they only have 1 attack but that can be increased by Extra Attack, Frenzy, and/or War Priest).
Quetzalcoatlus (Druid 8): 6d6+2
Stegosaurus (Druid 12): 6d6+5
Brontosaurus (Druid 15): 6d8+5

Also, by the Sentinel feat, from your reaction attack when someone attacks a target besides you.

===================================


At first I was kind of at a loss at what to do, but I've decided on something I find both thematic and fun: A Barbarian/Monk who is based around survival, and more importantly, grappling. I've taken the first level in Monk to get the bonus to Dexterity saves, and I'm using his Natural Armor over Unarmored Defense since my AC would be higher. Instead of using his fists to attack, he uses his bite, gaining the Monk's fun Unarmored Strike-based powers with a 1d6 weapon instead of a 1d4 one. Took the next level in barbarian and the next in monk, making him a Barbarian 1/Monk 2, with Rages, Natural Armor, and two Unarmored Strikes dealing 1d6+str damage, or three of those 1d6 attacks if I use Flurry of Blows.

The fun part comes from the fact that not only can I grapple people, but I don't need to bash them together to hurt them, instead I just have to chow down, leaving me free to have two people in both hands and not need to worry about damage, since I can rip and tear into their fleshy hides with a toothy grin. *snip*

So, what do you guys think of this build? I'm trying to take advantage of the Lizardfolk's natural talents, and I think it holds up to fluff and crunch, but I was wondering what other people thought about the scaly wonder.

How likely is it, in your campaign, that you're going to be grappling two guys at a time? Because if it's not likely, the other obvious way to take advantage of the bite is to go the opposite route and be a heavily-armored Fighter or Barbarian tank. Normally the downside to a grapple/prone combo is that you can't use weapon, shield, and grapple simultaneously, so you wind up having to either shield bash things for d4 damage without proficiency (unless you've taken Tavern Brawler) or give up your shield (which is sad, since prone disadvantage combos so nicely with the AC boost from shield). A lizard man though could just grapple/prone and start eating the enemy, which seems both thematic and a bit horrifying.

I say "tank" in the sense of "PC who simultaneously protects other PCs from an enemy while being largely invulnerable to damage himself," because that's exactly what grapple/prone does. If you do something like Fighter 5 (Defense style)/Rogue 1 you will be extra-effective in this. Downside is that you won't be taking advantage of the lizard man's scales, only his bite.

[Giant2005]

Also, by the Sentinel feat, from your reaction attack when someone attacks a target besides you.

Good catch! The builds were already ridiculous - having a potential 4th attack on them would be insane. Four attacks per round of 6d8+5 is comparable to unleashing a single target meteor every round.
Although when you are rolling that many dice, it is better to be able to squeeze in 3 levels of Champion. Something like Moon Druid 12/Frenzy Barb 5/Champion 3 (With Sentinel) would be insane in the damage department.

[huttj509]

Picked up a copy of Volo's, even got a misprint copy of the limited edition cover (the pages are upside down compared to the cover, so I just need to flip the book over when opening it).

Now I just need to decide a AL character for the Volo's intro event Wednesday.

[Sigreid]

Picked up a copy of Volo's, even got a misprint copy of the limited edition cover (the pages are upside down compared to the cover, so I just need to flip the book over when opening it).

Now I just need to decide a AL character for the Volo's intro event Wednesday.

Don't know what you like to play but my group home brewed goblins that turned out to not be too far off Volo's. What we found was after adapting our tactics to take into account nimble escape, they were devastating in a fight. Strike, partial move, hide, finish move, wait for your turn to strike again.

[Maxilian]

Anything good for wildshape or Beastmaster companions (old or new?)

EDIT: Or summon spells?

Didn't checked for BM but there are a couple of Dinosours, a rat with glowing brain, a cow and different variations of it and a dolphin...

Note: There's also 1 extra elemental for summon elemental (flail snail) and some feys for summon woodland beings and/or summon fey

[DrDinocrusher]

Now I just need to decide a AL character for the Volo's intro event Wednesday.

Some silly and/or fine ideas I've seen tossed around:

Bugbear monk for 10ft martial arts and quarterstaff blows, Bugbear Battlemaster 3/Assassin X for silly whip shenanigans, Bugbear bladelock

Tabaxi grappler monk (use the climb speed to drag people up walls and drop them)

Scourge Aasimar druid, activate your aura and then grapple people as a bear or octopus or whatever. Fallen Aasimar paladin with a great weapon

Kobold druid for that sweet pack tactics, Kobold shadow monk

Goblin dex fighter

[huttj509]

Some silly and/or fine ideas I've seen tossed around:

Bugbear monk for 10ft martial arts and quarterstaff blows, Bugbear Battlemaster 3/Assassin X for silly whip shenanigans, Bugbear bladelock

Tabaxi grappler monk (use the climb speed to drag people up walls and drop them)

Scourge Aasimar druid, activate your aura and then grapple people as a bear or octopus or whatever. Fallen Aasimar paladin with a great weapon

Kobold druid for that sweet pack tactics, Kobold shadow monk

Goblin dex fighter

Thank you. This is why I don't mention preferences, I normally ignore monks for some reason, and either a Bugbear (mmm, reach) or Tabaxi (the double movement options and climb mobility, even without grapple carrying which would depend on GM rulings) sounds fun.

I like just seeing ideas to break my mind out of ruts :-)

Also, Tabaxi can use claws for slashing in case of zombies.

[Sigreid]

So, having looked at the book now I'm sticking with my original position. The attribute penalties on orcs and kobolds (and only on them) don't make sense to me within the context of the rest of the system. They don't have anything when looking at what the other races get to make me think that they, among all the others, need to be hit with the nerf bat. I'm going to talk to my group about ignoring the -2 on system consistency grounds.

[Giant2005]

So, having looked at the book now I'm sticking with my original position. The attribute penalties on orcs and kobolds (and only on them) don't make sense to me within the context of the rest of the system. They don't have anything when looking at what the other races get to make me think that they, among all the others, need to be hit with the nerf bat. I'm going to talk to my group about ignoring the -2 on system consistency grounds.

I agree that the Orc doesn't get anything special, but Pack Tactics is easily the most powerful racial ability in the game by a significant margin - whatever comes second isn't even 20% as good as Pack Tactics. Kobolds need the penalty in order to balance out that crazily powerful ability.
That is coming from someone that has every intention of bearing that burden more than most - I plan on making a Kobold multiclass Druid/Barb, which means that penalty forces me to waste a 15 on Str rather than 13. I don't enjoy having to go to that extra expense, but it certainly is fair.

[DrDinocrusher]

I agree that the Orc doesn't get anything special, but Pack Tactics is easily the most powerful racial ability in the game by a significant margin - whatever comes second isn't even 20% as good as Pack Tactics. Kobolds need the penalty in order to balance out that crazily powerful ability.
That is coming from someone that has every intention of bearing that burden more than most - I plan on making a Kobold multiclass Druid/Barb, which means that penalty forces me to waste a 15 on Str rather than 13. I don't enjoy having to go to that extra expense, but it certainly is fair.

Well I think I'd throw the Yuan-Ti's magic resistance as a strong contender for best racial but pack tactics is certainly strong. I think the idea of the -2str was to limit the incredible power of pack tactics to dex classes, rather than also let kobolds moonlight as GWM fighters, barbarians, bladelocks, etc.

[RickAllison]

So I'd like to look at some more odd options, some of which have come up. The Gazer is set up to be a perfect familiar for a GOOlock with the Chain pact, fulfilling the relevant criteria and having similar sections on being a familiar to those of the MM's familiars. We have the Dinosaurs filling in some of the ranks of Druid forms, as others have mentioned above, as well as a smattering of smaller creatures in an appendix.

For a particularly optional player-related option, what forms are there for summoning? Conjure Beasts has the dinosaurs; Conjure Fey has Meenlocks, Redcaps, and Quicklings; I don't think there is any love for elementals or minor celestials, though correct me if I am wrong.

Still, I can't complain about a lack of player options. I got my Tabaxi and kobolds, what more do I need?

[Giant2005]

Well I think I'd throw the Yuan-Ti's magic resistance as a strong contender for best racial but pack tactics is certainly strong. I think the idea of the -2str was to limit the incredible power of pack tactics to dex classes, rather than also let kobolds moonlight as GWM fighters, barbarians, bladelocks, etc.

I agree and that is part of why it is so great. Str-based characters can get themselves easy access to advantage via 2 levels of Barb. Kobolds and Pack Tactics is all the Dex guys have.
Fair point on the Yuan-Ti's Magic Resistance too - that is pretty up there in power too and probably falls in at second place. I don't think it really compares that well though - advantage in every round of every encounter via Pack Tactics is a lot better than advantage on some rounds of encounters that include a magic user that actually targets you instead of an ally.

[DrDinocrusher]

I agree and that is part of why it is so great. Str-based characters can get themselves easy access to advantage via 2 levels of Barb. Kobolds and Pack Tactics is all the Dex guys have.
Fair point on the Yuan-Ti's Magic Resistance too - that is pretty up there in power too and probably falls in at second place. I don't think it really compares that well though - advantage in every round of every encounter via Pack Tactics is a lot better than advantage on some rounds of encounters that include a magic user that actually targets you instead of an ally.

Well it works all the time against any spell or spell-like effect. They don't have to target you - it works just as well against a fireball as it does a suggestion or disintegrate spell. I personally rate it higher because advantage on saving throws is much harder to get (let alone get permanently) than advantage on your attacks. Pack tactics is strong, but not strong enough to convince me I should apply it on a class the kobold is ill suited for such as a great weapon master fighter particularly with the threat of sunlight sensitivity in play. In contrast, the Yuan-Ti's combo of suggestion, poison immunity, and spell resistance tells me that they will make for incredibly durable bear totem barbarians and EK fighters since spell resistance directly addresses one of the largest weaknesses those classes have as well as being basically the race par-excellence for any CHA based class if you aren't worried about absolute maximum damage output (at which Aasimar outclass them). But I'm not the best optimizer on the planet so that's just my thought on the comparsion between the two! Overall I'd say Kobolds > Yuan-Ti offensively, but Yuan-Ti eclipse everyone defensively.

[SharkForce]

kobolds can't be great-weapon users. mostly because they can't use heavy weapons.

[MeeposFire]

kobolds can't be great-weapon users. mostly because they can't use heavy weapons.

Well not very well anyway. They would need to use pack tactics to remove their constant disadvantage. Hey at least sunlight will not be an issue anymore you already get disadvantage!

Granted being permanently out of advantage means that in terms of actual optimization they may as well not be able to use them at all as that is waht makes the feat work in the first place.

[Gastronomie]

I don't know the specifics since I don't have the book yet, but based on what I hear it seems Yuan-Ti are an amazing race for a lot of builds. Quite a damn lot. Imagine what a Yuan-Ti Paladin will be like, with advantage + aura of protection... it's very well worth lagging behind in STR/DEX, especially for Oathbreakers.

[Spiritchaser]

I don't have the book yet so I can't be sure... But it sounds like a yuan ti ancients paladin 8 sorcerer 12 would be pretty nearly the definitive spellbreaker, with (edit) +5 to save, advantage on magic saves, half damage on anything magical that does get through, and then counterspell plus for extra fun: subtle spell so they can't counterspell you.

Possibly make it a sword and board dex build for even better saves, but the ASIs get pretty tight so probably not for standard array. Silly 13 str requirement...

Mind you, if a player wanted to build this and wanted to handwave the str requirement to dex I'd have to think long and hard before letting them...

Maybe that str requirement is not so silly... I'd still probably let them but...

[RickAllison]

I'm still just thrilled I have my Tabaxi, and their speed ability is fantastic. Time to restart my search for a supersonic PC...

[jaappleton]

I don't have the book yet so I can't be sure... But it sounds like a yuan ti ancients paladin 8 sorcerer 12 would be pretty nearly the definitive spellbreaker, with (edit) +5 to save, advantage on magic saves, half damage on anything magical that does get through, and then counterspell plus for extra fun: subtle spell so they can't counterspell you.

Possibly make it a sword and board dex build for even better saves, but the ASIs get pretty tight so probably not for standard array. Silly 13 str requirement...

Mind you, if a player wanted to build this and wanted to handwave the str requirement to dex I'd have to think long and hard before letting them...

Maybe that str requirement is not so silly... I'd still probably let them but...

Toss in a few Warlock levels for Pact of Tome, to get Shillaleigh keying off of Charisma. No need for Str or Dex to go higher than 13 if you're in heavy armor.

[RickAllison]

Toss in a few Warlock levels for Pact of Tome, to get Shillaleigh keying off of Charisma. No need for Str or Dex to go higher than 13 if you're in heavy armor.

Well, 14 and/or 15 Strength for regular speed.

[Sigreid]

I agree that the Orc doesn't get anything special, but Pack Tactics is easily the most powerful racial ability in the game by a significant margin - whatever comes second isn't even 20% as good as Pack Tactics. Kobolds need the penalty in order to balance out that crazily powerful ability.
That is coming from someone that has every intention of bearing that burden more than most - I plan on making a Kobold multiclass Druid/Barb, which means that penalty forces me to waste a 15 on Str rather than 13. I don't enjoy having to go to that extra expense, but it certainly is fair.

As one example, having played with it in a couple of sessions of home brew goblins, nimble escape is insanely good. And, granted they have to wait for them, but some of the races get 3rd level spells.

I'm not saying it's not good. I'm saying that loosing 1 attribute compared to everyone else, essentially half an asi is fine and 1.5 asi is unnecessary.

[Spiritchaser]

Toss in a few Warlock levels for Pact of Tome, to get Shillaleigh keying off of Charisma. No need for Str or Dex to go higher than 13 if you're in heavy armor.

Possible, and with an arcane staff in one hand and holy symbol shield in the other, that does work for sure, but part of the reason to go dex is to have that better dex save. Unless one rolls obscene stats, resilient dex won't be an option, but wit +5 from attribute, + 5 from cha and advantage you're still pretty bombproof.

That's not to say that +5 from cha +advantage is bad... But it's more along the lines of what a normal character gets... And the schtik of this concept is to stare down a dc 19 wis save with an 84% chance of making it, a dc 19 con save with a 75% chance (96 if you manage resilient con... And maybe you can) and an 88% chance at a dc 19 dex save

Low dex will work just fine, but your save drops to 58%... And I would propose that a spellbreaker needs something better than that.

Of course, if you go Warlock 4 for the ASI you could probably manage resilient dex... then sure...

I had a DM who once said that MC'ing Warlock would always be permitted, as spontaneous evil guidance could always be expediently arranged...

I know the rogue had voices in his head by level 2.

Edit: all much better if you're running bless of course)

[MaxWilson]

Well, 14 and/or 15 Strength for regular speed.

Or just rely on Mobile or Longstrider or mounted combat for the speed boost.

It's kind of funny to see people here get so excited about Yuan-ti Magic Resistance giving advantage on saves and not at all excited about Wild Magic/Tides of Chaos, which can do the exact same thing, and even recharge on a Counterspell. Add in Bend Luck and the aforementioned Counterspell and maybe a Lucky feat and the Wild Sorcerer is about as close as you can get to magic-immune in 5E. Yes, the DM's ruling on Tides of Chaos recharge is something you'd need to discuss with him before the campaign starts, but it's just kind of funny to see all the hubub over advantage in one place but not the other.

[Giant2005]

Or just rely on Mobile or Longstrider or mounted combat for the speed boost.

It's kind of funny to see people here get so excited about Yuan-ti Magic Resistance giving advantage on saves and not at all excited about Wild Magic/Tides of Chaos, which can do the exact same thing, and even recharge on a Counterspell. Add in Bend Luck and the aforementioned Counterspell and maybe a Lucky feat and the Wild Sorcerer is about as close as you can get to magic-immune in 5E. Yes, the DM's ruling on Tides of Chaos recharge is something you'd need to discuss with him before the campaign starts, but it's just kind of funny to see all the hubub over advantage in one place but not the other.

Most DMs simply don't want to deal with Tides of Chaos, which reduces it to a once per day ability. If it applied to every spell 1st level or higher that you cast, then it would indeed be incredibly powerful and it would get more respect as a result. But no-one rates it because no-one plays like that.

[DrDinocrusher]

After a lot of meditation on what I think Kenku can do really well, I think one of the niches they really have is as an illusionist wizard. They can sidestep some of the normal restrictions of spells such as silent image by using their mimickry to create sound for their own illusions. Yes it's not perfect but a little dip into rogue for expertise on deception should make it a rather effective trick. Create an illusory bridge, and then mimic the sound of it creaking from nearby to convince an enemy that it's real, etc. It's a cool little interaction that I think plays into their strengths rather well. And they can use their skill in forgery to make much better illusions than normal, particularly for things like illusory writing.

[gfishfunk]

After a lot of meditation on what I think Kenku can do really well, I think one of the niches they really have is as an illusionist wizard. They can sidestep some of the normal restrictions of spells such as silent image by using their mimickry to create sound for their own illusions. Yes it's not perfect but a little dip into rogue for expertise on deception should make it a rather effective trick. Create an illusory bridge, and then mimic the sound of it creaking from nearby to convince an enemy that it's real, etc. It's a cool little interaction that I think plays into their strengths rather well. And they can use their skill in forgery to make much better illusions than normal, particularly for things like illusory writing.

That is brilliant, Dinocrusher M.D.

I like the idea of hiding out and listening to a villain spout out random phrases, and then re-use those phrases, and cut them together with an illusion of him with his subordinates.

[MaxWilson]

Most DMs simply don't want to deal with Tides of Chaos, which reduces it to a once per day ability. If it applied to every spell 1st level or higher that you cast, then it would indeed be incredibly powerful and it would get more respect as a result. But no-one rates it because no-one plays like that.

This calls for at least an informal poll: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?500111-Poll-Tides-of-Chaos-frequency-how-do-you-rule

[Zene]

This calls for at least an informal poll: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?500111-Poll-Tides-of-Chaos-frequency-how-do-you-rule

Nice! I'm playing a Wild Sorcerer in AL starting this week. I've built her (rp-wise, and playstyle-wise) around getting frequent surges, so I'm very interested in the results of this poll.

By the way, I voted in the poll, but then it said "the results of this poll are hidden". Is that a setting you could change?

[MaxWilson]

Nice! I'm playing a Wild Sorcerer in AL starting this week. I've built her (rp-wise, and playstyle-wise) around getting frequent surges, so I'm very interested in the results of this poll.

By the way, I voted in the poll, but then it said "the results of this poll are hidden". Is that a setting you could change?

I've asked the mods in that forum for help making it visible.

[JackPhoenix]

That is brilliant, Dinocrusher M.D.

I like the idea of hiding out and listening to a villain spout out random phrases, and then re-use those phrases, and cut them together with an illusion of him with his subordinates.

So, like Predator? I like

[huttj509]

Nice! I'm playing a Wild Sorcerer in AL starting this week. I've built her (rp-wise, and playstyle-wise) around getting frequent surges, so I'm very interested in the results of this poll.

By the way, I voted in the poll, but then it said "the results of this poll are hidden". Is that a setting you could change?

I'd say get there early, talk to the GM about what surge rate would be expected, and bring an alt character in case that GM doesn't do them as often as you'd like.

[Ryuu Hayato]

Aasimar Fighter... 8 attacks = 80 for GWM + 160 for lvl 20 Radiant Soul + 104 Greatsword + GWF. Fly, Darkvision, Necrotic and Radiant resistance. Why should I play another race (except roleplay)?

[MaxWilson]

Aasimar Fighter... 8 attacks = 80 for GWM + 160 for lvl 20 Radiant Soul + 104 Greatsword + GWF. Fly, Darkvision, Necrotic and Radiant resistance. Why should I play another race (except roleplay)?

You misunderstand Radiant Soul. It triggers only once per round, on your turn. So it's only +20 for Radiant Soul, not +160, and you have to burn a round activating it. It's kind of like a negative Action Surge. :-P

[RickAllison]

You misunderstand Radiant Soul. It triggers only once per round, on your turn. So it's only +20 for Radiant Soul, not +160, and you have to burn a round activating it. It's kind of like a negative Action Surge. :-P

But how much cheddar can we pile on as one powerful attack? How about a level 20 Aasimar Assassin with GWM and Sharpshooter wielding a heavy crossbow in melee? He isn't hitting the broadside of a barn considering he has to hit with Strength while still needing Dex and lots of feats (at least three); despite advantage while getting the drop on an opponent, his cheesy double -5/+10 means he has trouble hitting much of anything.

On the off chance he does manage to hit, however, he would be brutal. Since the Assassin's final ability doubles all damage rather than just dice, we are looking at 2X(1d4+10d6+Str+40) damage, and any resulting concentration saves would be at least 52, and on average more like 80. He may rarely hit, but any surprise attack landed will obliterate any and all concentration saves. On average, you would need a 20 with every ability score giving a boost and all 30s. He rarely would hit even the broadside of a barn, but he destroys the barn when he does!

[MaxWilson]

By the way, I voted in the poll, but then it said "the results of this poll are hidden". Is that a setting you could change?

I haven't gotten a mod response on making the poll visible, but FYI the results at present are:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=78208&d=1478628976

[DracoKnight]

Having got my hands on a copy recently, I absolutely love the lore and everything behind the yuan-ti.

I have a question, though: how many DMs out there would allow you to play the pureblood, but reskin it as a Malison? Because other than the Shapechanger trait there's not too much that Malison's can do that Purebloods can't (other than attack multiple times a round).

[Discord]

Having got my hands on a copy recently, I absolutely love the lore and everything behind the yuan-ti.

I have a question, though: how many DMs out there would allow you to play the pureblood, but reskin it as a Malison? Because other than the Shapechanger trait there's not too much that Malison's can do that Purebloods can't (other than attack multiple times a round).

One of the things I would allow as a DM and I would wonder if other DM's would accept is, switching out certain traits on the current PureBloods with other traits in the Yuan-Ti section.

Innate Spell Casting, Magic Resistance and Poison Immunity may be the only thing's interchangeable things but I think really it'd be more just Innate Spell Casting and Magic Resistance.

Customizing Yuan-Ti on page 98 gives you these options.

Chameleon Skin - Adv on Dexterity checks to hide

Shape Changer (PureBlood Only) - Use its action to polymorph into a medium giant poisonous snake or a large constrictor snake, it's statistics remain the same in each form and if it dies it does not revert back to it's normal form.

Shed Skin (1/day) - The yuan-ti can shed its skin as a bonus action to free itself from a grapple, shackles, or other restraints. If the yuan-ti spends 1 minute eating its shed skin, it regains hit
points equal to half its hit point maximum.

Bite (Pureblood Only). Melee Weapon Attack: +3 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 3 (ld4) piercing damage plus 3 (1d6) poison damage. If the pureblood uses Multi attack, it can make two melee attacks, but can use its bite only once

How do you and possible others feel, giving players some options to customize your or their characters my exchanging things the race has raw?