Using NPCs with Class Levels as encounters

[Mongobear]

I am afb right now, but iirc, instead of using an actual NPC that has class levels, you are supposed to create a custom "monster" and give it abilities that function similarly to what they would do with those levels.

Is this how it was intended to work? Or was there a line somewhere in the Encounters/NPC areas of the DMG about how to assign an appropriate CR/XP Reward to a character with actual class levels, instead of abilities which just mirror those levels.

[MrStabby]

Not really, at least as I can recall (its hard to check the absence of something).

One thing that you do have to take into account a bit more is abilities that are neither offensive nor defensive. Thinks like monks running up walls, rogues cunning action, ability to cast wall spells.

For effects that are spells or mimic spells I just compare to spells of the same level that do damage and treat that ability as as powerful as the damage ability. It isn't perfect, but it's a decent rough guide.

[Mongobear]

Sp, RAW, you arent supposed to use NPCs with class levels? Instead, creating some sort of abomination/clone of what you want them to function like using the custom monster charts?

[MeeposFire]

I don't think so but I believe what you need to do is that after you create the NPC you determine its CR not by class level but by the rules for CR which may mean your NPC's CR may not be even close to its level depending on its HP,offensive, and defensive values.

[mephnick]

Creating NPCs as PCs and attempting to guess the CR has always been a pointless crapshoot. Not just in 5e.

It's always been faster and more effective to create NPCs like monsters and add a few iconic class abilities to get the feel you want.

Is that a custom built level 6 EK or a refluffed Githyanki Warrior with action surge? Who cares? Your players won't even notice.

[MeeposFire]

Creating NPCs as PCs and attempting to guess the CR has always been a pointless crapshoot. Not just in 5e.

It's always been faster and more effective to create NPCs like monsters and add a few iconic class abilities to get the feel you want.

Is that a custom built level 6 EK or a refluffed Githyanki Warrior with action surge? Who cares? Your players won't even notice.

From experience that is a lot easier in most cases than making a NPC using PC rules for the most part. Granted 5e is a lot faster than doing it in 3e (or 4e though 4e usually made NPCs using monster rules due to this problem) but even so modifying an already existing guy than making it from scratch.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Sp, RAW, you arent supposed to use NPCs with class levels? Instead, creating some sort of abomination/clone of what you want them to function like using the custom monster charts?

Creating full custom abominations is the gold standard, yes. Tweaking/re-skinning existing monsters is better than using PCs as NPCs. PC classes don't work that well for monsters because monsters rarely get a chance to rest and usually need more HP than an equivalent PC, among other things.

The books (I think it's in the MM) do mention giving monsters class levels, such as a dragon with sorcerer levels, but that's not much different from building your own monsters anyway, since you have to recalculate the CR most of the time.

[Arkhios]

DMG, as I recall, has guidelines to use PC stats for an NPC.

Generally you just make it like you would make a PC, and once done with that calculate the CR from effective results, such as Hit Points (not Hit Dice!), Final Armor Class, Total Attack Bonus, and average damage per ability (an Area of Effect ability is considered to hit at least two targets for the average damage etc.) For more elaborate class/racial features there's quite an extensive list of how certain abilities affect effective hit points, effective AC, and attack/damage rolls. I've found that most class features have equivalent monster abilities in that list.

To conclude, using PC's as NPC's isn't forbidden. It's just a bit more complicated than customizing an existing monster/NPC.

[gfishfunk]

While making a PC is pretty easier.....it is easier running an NPC with two class flavors to it.

PC-ish NPCs are complex creatures. As a DM, you are supposed to know all of your NPCs, monsters, etc AND all of the character's PCs. Its just information overload. Every DM has looked at a monster mid-way through a battle and said ' oh crap, it was suppose to do that last turn before it died...' or 'Ohhhh, it does double damage on what now?' Generally, simpler is better.

Add a feature (or two, but probably one) that is very class-ish. Like: rogue cunning action, monk's flurry of blows, cleric channel divinity, warlock pact feature, etc. You can beef it up if you want the character to be more challenging (Fighter battlemaster precise attack on every attack, monk stunning strike once per turn every turn, etc).

[MinotaurWarrior]

I personally really enjoy making NPCs with class levels as major, recurring NPCs. E.g. the Questgiver at level 1 who becomes a friendly rival at level 6 and then needs to be rescued and escorted back to base at level 8. Or the big bad who's run off at level 5 and then defeated for good at level 18. It's just fun for me, so that's why I do it. As with anything in gaming, don't do it if it isn't fun.

Generally speaking, what I'd recommend for calculating CR is to just think of the features that are core to the NPC's strategy, and calculate based on that. E.g. your warlock's CR is based on Hex + EB, not Tasha's hideous laughter, if they're in a fight to the death. And if a high-level necromancer is popping in to resurrect that warlock as a wight before fleeing, you just use an adjusted wight CR to add to the encounter, not worrying about any other weird thing that might pop off if PCs trigger something unexpected (like wasting shots on him).

[Arkhios]

Here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z1s3D8X5a8RbKpeBRF8MBE94gUtMZU0SPuZk7bZ2TZY/edit?usp=sharing) are some NPC's I made by using a PC at certain levels as a guideline. They're not hundred percent accurate compared to a PC, as I ditched the irrelevant parts. I decided to share these as an example and maybe slightly because I wished to see what you guys might think of them and their CR.

[tomjon]

I like to use class features with monsters. Some times it not so clear cut on what the CR should be. It has been my experience that anything that dramatically affects hit points or damage must be weighted much more than you might think. Don't think so. Try to give an orc (orog cr 2) the rage ability. Sounds logical but the extra hp and damage will significantly jump the CR. If you go just one more level to the equivalent of a 3rd level rage (and bear totem) hold on to your hat. An orc raised to the states of a CR 3 with the rage ability will quickly out preform your party. Just a word of cation so you don't out class your party.

[Stan]

The key thing is to not over think it and do what you like. Also, don't stress about CR as it's a rough guide and is often wonky on existing monsters as it is.

If you like creating characters and/or have a character generator for the game you're playing, make NPCs as PCs. I generally fall into this camp and tend you have NPCs as much as monsters, with the important ones fleshed out. Remember though, that the chargen rules are for PCs and don't have to be followed faithfully.

For example, you might say a really good 5th level fighter has 2 attacks/round, 18 strength or 16 strength and a feat. Don't worry about skills, just assume one or two common ones or pick one that's key to the storyline. Give them 14 con and average hp for class, put them in heavy armor (the best you want the PCs to have after the fight) and assume 10 in all other stats. Or you could go the other way, take a character and give them 1 ability that they wouldn't legally have - maybe they spend a level worth's of XP getting it. Maybe this fighter also has magic initiate and can spider climb.

You can also take NPC monsters and tweak as needed. Suppose you want a company of archers that are elite but still not super heroes. Start with a guard, give them 14 Dex,the archery fighting style, replace the shield and spear with a longbow and a short sword. Now, they have +6 to hit, 1d8+2 damage. Call them CR 1 if they are going to have a chance to use their bows for more than a round, CR 1/2 otherwise.

[Shining Wrath]

You can reverse - engineer it; if a CR 10 creature is a fair match for 4 level 10 PCs, then a level 10 PC is worth about 5900/4 = 1475 XP, bringing it in about 4 or 5.

[Spiritchaser]

Most of my major villains are built as PCs. Same array, same rules. At first I increased HP to bring them more in line, but now I just run with it. The PCs have started to figure out that pc races are likely to be glass cannons, and have adjusted accordingly. It's a stealth heavy campaign, so spending significant time and energy getting the drop in someone is generally well worth it. In one instance, sufficient care, a bit of luck and previously sparing the life of a particular pirate allowed the PCs to gank the archvillain wizard before he did a thing. It was a great fight that lasted one round or four days, depending on how you look at it.

I'm going to emphasize more monsters in the next few sessions, just to change up the pace... But I don't thing there's anything at all wrong with PC rules for NPCs... Its just different

[Citan]

Here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z1s3D8X5a8RbKpeBRF8MBE94gUtMZU0SPuZk7bZ2TZY/edit?usp=sharing) are some NPC's I made by using a PC at certain levels as a guideline. They're not hundred percent accurate compared to a PC, as I ditched the irrelevant parts. I decided to share these as an example and maybe slightly because I wished to see what you guys might think of them and their CR.
Hi!
Well, it's not always easy to evaluate, but I'd say...
For the lvl 3 character, CR 1 is more or less accurate. I'd rather say "3/4" but it doesn't exist so...
Why I think 1 is a bit too much is because when compared to Goblins (1/4) or Goblin Boss (1) it would be really inbetween.
After all, he can only use one annoying (but non directly damage/control) spell per short rest, and he gets only 2 attacks at most. Goblin Boss gets distant attack and dash/hide as a bonus action. So it is more pesky imo. Although it does get a nice speed.

Following the same kind of comparison, I wouldn't rate your lvl 6 character higher than CR 2 at first glance. It could be lumped with a Githzerai Monk fairly easily: same HP and a few spells. BUT, now that you get 3/short rest AND permanent bonus action Shadow Step that matches with Darkness, it makes this character much more able to do precise strikes against players. So I'd push it to CR 3. Probably no more though.

[DragonSorcererX]

Angry GM has the answers:

http://theangrygm.com/monster-building-101-its-alive-its-alive/
http://theangrygm.com/monster-building-201-the-dd-monster-dissection-lab/
http://theangrygm.com/monster-building-202/
http://theangrygm.com/monster-building-202-supplement-monster-building-with-angry/