Non-Vancian Magic Systems?

[Aeturo]

Are there any, home brew or official, non vancian systems for magic I could use in 3.5 that are fun to use? I don't have a problem with vancian casting I'm just looking for something new to spice things up a bit.

[ComaVision]

inb4 50 Spheres of Power recommendations.

But seriously, check out Spheres of Power.

[Aipaca]

Can confirm, spheres of power is awesome, and easy to work into both 3.5 and PF, or replace vancian entirely.

[Luccan]

I don't think I've ever read any of Vance's work, but if what I've read on it and remember is correct, one "system" would be to get rid of prepared casters. I'm not sure that's entirely accurate though and you may not want to do that anyway.

There's an alternate magic system here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm but I've never used it so I don't know what kind of effect it has in the hands of players

[Aeturo]

Can either of you explain what spheres of power is? I'm not keen on shelling out 20 dollars for a book I may not enjoy

[Aipaca]

Go to the wiki (spheresofpower.wikidot.com) it's all there. Basically you have at will effects based on which 'spheres' you decide to level into, which can be augmented a certain number of times per day costing spell points. It's easy to use and smoothes out the caster power curve somewhat.

[MisterKaws]

There's the third party Spheres of Power, and then we have the WotC-approved Spell Points and Recharge Magic at Unearthed Arcana.

[Afgncaap5]

Curiously, even Wizards get some non-vancian magic: their ritual to summon a familiar isn't Vancian. (Technically, Sorcerers don't prepare spells so they aren't Vancian per-se, even if they're still following the spirit of that tradition.) If you wanted to, you could fill a game world with incantations from Unearthed Arcana (take away the recommended XP penalties, though, they get in the way.) That way you could custom-fit magic to be just about anything from near-Vancian ("I need to prepare to cast this ritual tomorrow, it'll use up one of my fifth level spell slots when I do but it'll also turn the troll's weapons into fudge.") to class-codified ("We need a Ranger of at least seventh level for this; it requires an understanding of natural magic, but it also requires respect for our city or else it will awaken the rats below who will overrun us. No, they're not rats like you're thinking, trust us you don't want them.") to bizarre ("No one must ever say this deplorable word, or it will literally transform the nearest city of more than 500 people into a burning pile of ashes." "Ashes can't bur-" "These can.")

Incarnum feats actually count as non-Vancian in my opinion. You really need the more Vancian-ish style of things to make the best use of them, but having a suite of techniques that you can give more or less power to on the fly is a nice, intuitive, "change as you need to" style of magic.

I believe that the Wheel of Time D&D stuff has some skill-based magic that might be non-Vancian, but I don't know if that's true or not. Though I suppose the Truenamer's skill-based magic isn't Vancian. And a lot of the Warlock's passive abilities aren't Vancian.

Having said all that, I want to echo everyone saying that Spheres of Power is a great system that isn't Vancian (is actually three non-Vancian systems after you take the Spheres/Talents/Spellcraft system up along with the Incantation system and the Ritual system.) If you took that, and maybe backported the 4e/5e Ritual books, and then allow for DM hand-waving ("The goblin king knows a secret word that will always transport him home, and it only works for him because of his noble position") then you suddenly have a lot of non-Vancian options to work with.

[Aeturo]

Truenamer and Incarnum were actually what started me thinking about this. But the Truenamer doesn't work well at all without a fix and I've played a lot of incarnum so I wanted to branch out. I'm currently reading up on the Spheres of Power so thank you all for telling me about it.

[Morcleon]

The Codices of Spellshaping (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=i1bs6r2skrj41uf6abt6f3f954&topic=845.0) and the Tome of Radiance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258654) are both incredibly fun systems to play with.

[Mehangel]

I also would recommend Spheres of Power for a non-vancian spellcasting experience.

[Cerefel]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned psionics yet. Also, invocations.

[Vaz]

Surprised also it took so long to get here.

Psionics is where it's at. It's old school mana. You can build in a recharge if you really want to improve it. If you like the spells, then there's the Spell to Power Erudite.

Alternatively, Incarnum is a bit more in depth, but it works like having a floating set on bonuses, based on "shaped" Soulmelds (think specific low tier magic items which you choose at the start of your day, with which you can invest essentia which improves their power. It's not strictly magic casting, but has a similar effects.

An alternatively one to Incarnum is Binding, which is similar, where you select powers but don't get to modify them.

[Mordaedil]

People already mentioned spell points from Unearthed Arcana, the arcane equivalant to psionics.

[digiman619]

Also seconding (sixthing?) Spheres of Power; it makes magic balanced and thematic again.

[Ualaa]

I reviewed Spheres of Power, on Amazon:

This is the definitive magic systems book for the Pathfinder Game. It was funded through Kickstarter, recently. The book is fairly massive, clocking in at 230 pages. We have 220 pages of content, with brief thematic works as the introductions for most of the chapters, but the majority of the book is crunch.

Spheres of Power is a well made hardcover book, and it is a color product throughout.
The semi-gloss paper is as heavy a weight as a typical product from Paizo, so it will last at least as long as one of their hardcovers. In thickness, it is fairly close to Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, or any of their Bestiary books.
The art is not necessarily my preferred style, but it is unique for the book and not generic stock art. The art is mostly good, and care was taken to select (or request) pieces which fit within a given chapter.
Our group is starting to use it a fair bit, and there haven't been any issues with the binding.
In terms of sturdiness, this is a well made book.
As a bonus, each of the chapters are color coded, so you can easily flip to the section of your choice – blue (for Spheres and Talents), green (for Classes), purple (for Feats, Traditions and Drawbacks), and orange (for Advanced Options).

Spheres of Power (SoP) is an alternate system of magic, which could be used in conjunction with the default Vancian system that D&D and Pathfinder uses, but which could outright replace such a system.
The default Vancian system, is to have so many spells of a given level, with fewer spells of higher levels, and to progressively gain more spell slots.
SoP is a talent based system, with no spell slots; it does not differentiate between Arcane and Divine magics, although systems similar to the default/classical D&D approach are easy enough to create through traditions, boons and drawbacks, if desired.
In a fresh game, I'd personally recommend using the SoP system as a replacement to the default Vancian system, as it has its' own terminology for magic, which is similar to but does not always have the same meaning as the default terminology.

The rules for the core of the SoP system fit within two pages, making them simple to reference.

In SoP, caster level is akin to Base Attack Bonus (BAB) for a melee class. Some classes (the Fey Adept, the Incanter, the Soulweaver, and the Thaumaturge), are strong in the magic sense, others have the equivalent of 3/4 progression (such as the Elementalist, the Eliciter, the Hedgewitch, the Shifter and the Symbiat) while others have a dabbling of magic and are the equivalent to the 1/2 BAB classes (these are the Armorist and the Mageknight). This is precisely the same as a Barbarian, Fighter or Ranger has full BAB, while a Cleric, Druid or Rogue has 3/4 BAB, and the Sorcerer, Summoner, and Wizard have 1/2 BAB... except that caster level measures magical potency instead of physical skill at arms. CL seems to be inversely proportional to BAB, for casting classes (a Paladin has full BAB, and is a low caster (+20 BAB at 20th but +10 CL also at 20th), while an Elementalist is +15 to both BAB and CL at 20th, and an Incanter or Sphere Wizard has +10 BAB and +20 CL at 20th).
Casting Ability Modifier (CAM) is also a new mechanic, where a given class will use a variable stat (Int, Wis, or Cha; or Con with a specific disadvantage) to govern their casting, much like a default Cleric uses Wis while a default Wizard uses Int. Some SoP classes use a specific CAM, while others can choose which they'd like. Also, if you're more than one sphere casting class, and have multiple valid CAMs, you can choose which one to use for all of your sphere casting.
SoP also introduces Magic Skill Bonus (MSB) and Magic Skill Defense (MSD), which function exactly the same as Combat Maneuver Bonus (CMB) and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD), and greatly simplify (and speed up) play. Checking against spell resistance is a straight d20 + MSB roll... quick and easy.

Each of the Sphere of Power classes gains Magical Talents (at a variable rate) to purchase Spheres or Talents within a Sphere. These are the classes, and briefly what they do:
The Armorist: D10, Full BAB,  CL, Wis as CAM. She makes her own Armor and Weapons (bonded equipment) and can enchant them on the fly, and swap between enchantments for a given situation.

The Elementalist: D8,  BAB,  CL, Cha as CAM. She gets Destruction for free (and is treated as full CL with the Destruction Sphere), and has a lot of Monk-like features with periodic bonus combat feats.

The Eliciter: D8,  BAB,  CL, Cha as CAM. She is an Enchantment type character with hypnotic class features allows for manipulation of others. A good party face character.

The Fey Adept: D8,  BAB,  CL, Cha as CAM. She is an Illusion specialist (with Illusion as a bonus Sphere) and has shadow magic effects. Potentially rather nasty tricks.

The Hedgewitch: D8,  BAB,  CL, Int, Wis or Cha as CAM. She chooses a specialization similar to a Bloodline and has advancement options within that tradition which vary based on the tradition she chooses.

The Incanter: D6,  BAB, Full CL, Int, Wis, or Cha as CAM. This is the default full caster chassis. She has 5 specialization points, which can be spent (or not spent) at 1st level and are then locked in. These specializations cost between 1 and 3 points each. Without spending any of the five points, she gains a magic related bonus feat at the same point as a Fighter gains a combat oriented bonus feat; for each specialization point spent (1, 2, 3, 4, or 5) she gains progressively fewer of these bonus feats, or none at all if she spends all 5 points. These abilities allow for Channel Energy, access to Domain abilities (no spells), a Sorcerer Bloodline's abilities, or specialization of a Sphere which unlocks special uses of that sphere.

The Mage Knight: D10, Full BAB,  CL, Int, Wis or Cha as CAM. She is the Paladin, Ranger, or Magus, if you were to build one within SoP rather than take the appropriate archetype for a non-Sphere class. If you want a strong in melee character, with supplemental casting, this is the one.

The Shifter: D8,  BAB,  CL, Wis as CAM. She gains Alteration type effects over time, basically retaining assorted traits from shapeshifts (Alteration sphere). This is the Wildshape like class, if that is your thing.

The Soulweaver: D6,  BAB, Full CL, Cha as CAM. Depending on flavor, this could be your Cleric like (or other Healer) character or your Necromancer character. As with any other Sphere character, a given Sphere (especially with Talents within the Sphere) can drastically customize your play... take Conjuration and have a Eidolon like permanent pet, as a Necromancer, if that fits your concept.

The Symbiat: D8,  BAB,  CL, Int as CAM. This is a sort of Psionic character, with both Mind and Telekinesis as bonus Spheres. There are a lot of Psionic flavored abilities here, but I'd personally look at this as another type of magic, and include Psionics (from Dreamscarred Press) if I wanted psionics within my game (I love their products too... Ultimate Psionics and Path of War). This class gets INT to AC as a nice bonus.

The Thaumaturge: D8,  BAB,  CL, Int, Wis or Cha as CAM. She has a surge like option, which can drastically increase her effectiveness, but potentially really sucks as well. The flavor is a little on the Occult side. With the potential drawback on the surge, I don't see many of my players going for this class.

There are Archetypes for many of the core classes like the Bard, the Cleric, the Druid, the Paladin, the Ranger, and the Wizard... these are included in the base book, while Archetypes for many/most other magic using classes appear within the first supplemental book, 'Spheres of Power: Expanded Options' (and also includes Archetypes for SoP classes and Favored Class bonuses).

Multiclassing within the SoP system is very simple and easy to grasp. We just add CL together, the same as a melee class adds their BAB together to determine their attacks. Beyond Caster Level, a Sphere Caster also has a spell point mechanic, which is simply all of your Sphere Classes plus your Casting Ability Modifier.

Spells follow the default assumptions, with Touch, Close, Medium and Far ranges. Saving throws aren't based on spell level (since there are no spell slots), but instead use the 10 +  CL + CAM formula which is used by many prestige classes within Pathfinder (and is the default system in 4th edition of D&D). Casting times are also familiar, ranging from a Swift Action, through Standard or Full-Round actions upwards to a 1 hour casting time.

Instead of dividing magic into Schools (like Abjuration, Evocation, etc), there are 20 Spheres of Power (Alteration, Conjuration, Creation, Dark, Death, Destruction, Divination, Enhancement, Fate, Illusion, Life, Light, Mind, Nature, Protection, Telekinesis, Time, War, Warp, and Weather). At the most basic level, either you have a Sphere or you don't.
Every time your Caster Level increase, you gain magic talents. Magic talents are used to either purchase a new Sphere or to select a talent within a Sphere that you already have access to.
Each Sphere has a few basic uses that are thematic to the Sphere. In addition, there are numerous talents within each Sphere, which expand what you can do with a given Sphere. These talents aren't merely the equivalent of spells, but rather ways in which the Sphere can be used so you could combine your talents to create a specific ability, but through the use of different talents of the same sphere achieve a different result.
With each Sphere having a base ability, that works at-will (usually as a Standard Action), we no longer have to worry about the 5-minute adventure day, and nova issues are greatly reduced.
More potent abilities use Spell Points for more spectacular effects, but even without any Spell Points a caster remains effective.

Warp is a good example (it has become a favorite amongst our group, along with Alteration, Conjuration and in particular Destruction).
The base ability allows you to Teleport yourself (and a Heavy Load) to any place within Close Range, as a Standard action. Alternatively, you can teleport a willing creature which you touch. The destination must be within your Line of Sight. For a spell point, the range is increased to Medium instead of Close.
Talents, within the Sphere, expand your options.
Group Teleport allows you to affect more than one creature at a time (up to an additional target per 2 caster levels (with a minimum of +1 additional target)), as the cost of a spell point.
Ranged Teleport allows your target (or targets, if you have Group Teleport) to be within Close Range instead of requiring they be Touched.
Unseeing Teleport allows your destination to be something which you cannot see (for example the other side of a wall).
Using Teleport + Group Teleport + Ranged Teleport, would cost 1 spell point by default (Group Teleport) or 2 spell points if the range were increased from Close to Medium.
But you could use this combination of talents to rearrange everyone's placement, to put the tank characters in the front and the casters/archers in the back, if your party was ambushed.
The combination of Spheres and Talents opens additional options with creativity often as your largest limiting factor.

Advanced Magic is a chapter which contains options that alter how magic plays on a fundamental level. That is not to say these are specific to a level of play. But they do alter how far magic can go within a given setting.
Giving a Conjuration Sphere-Caster the ability to summon extra-planar creatures via Diagrams and Summoning fundamentally alters how magic works within a setting. Disallowing this option for Conjuration removes a potentially game changing aspect.
Ressurrection type effects, within Life, are similarly game changing. Or Teleport within the Warp sphere – in several examples of literature, heroes had to journey from A to B (Belgarath could not simply Teleport Garion to Torak, nor could Gandalf Teleport the One-Ring to the pits of Mordor), the presence or absence of the options within this chapter fundamentally alter how magic works within a given world.
Rituals are another example of Advanced Magic; rituals allow for custom magical effects, if you wanted the bad guy to cast a spell that decimates the kingdom, he would design and cast such a ritual, and the heroes would likely try to stop him. If you really like a given spell, or are running an adventure/campaign where it is required, you can use a Ritual to craft any of the existing Vancian spells into a Spheres only game.
Spellcrafting is akin to Magic Item Creation; it is more of an art than a science and will depend on the judgment call the Dungeon/Game Master. This lets you combine some of the aspects from one sphere with some of the aspects of another (or talents within either of the spheres).

There's also a chapter on the creation of magic items, within the SoP system. You can adapt the system, for the creation of existing magic items, if you want to use something from Ultimate Equipment, but you could also disallow all the previous stuff and craft entirely within the system presented.

The combination of Magical Traditions, Boons and Drawbacks is a major draw for me. You could use Spheres of Power to duplicate the casting of pretty much any novel or fantasy setting. If you wanted an Avatar – the Last Airbender world (which is their example), you can craft such a magic system. If you want to duplicate the Misborn where flakes of metals (Pewter, Iron, Copper, etc..) must be imbibed in potions to allow for that system of magic. If you prefer a Jedi/Sith system, with magic limited to what the Force can do, you can craft such a world.
Also, between the various classes (or archetypes applied to existing classes), and careful selection of Spheres and Talents, you can play most concepts upwards from level one, where you are what you want to play immediately and gain potency with levels, as opposed to the classical approach of so many levels in one class and then some in another, and not actually being what you wanted to play until 6th or 7th level.

This is easily the best supplement to the Pathfinder RPG out there.

I wish Amazon would carry this themselves, as I would like another copy at our table. Purchasing from the Paizo store ($50 for color hardcover) or from DriveThruRPG ($20 for the PDF) is much cheaper than $130 for a used copy from a 3rd party vendor.

[digiman619]

One last bit about SoP I think needs to be mentioned: If you are going to multicless, I'd highly recommend using Fractional Base Bonuses (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes); that way a dip into a lower casting class doesn't make you lose your bonuses to CL and whatnot too badly.

EDIT: Fixed the url. Obviously I was holding shift when I thought I was holding ctrl. My bad.

[MisterKaws]

One last bit about SoP I thnk needs to be mentioned: If you are going to multicless, I'd highly recommend using Fractional Base Bonuses (#Doesntworkm8); that way a dip into a lower casting class doesn't make you lose your bonuses to CL and whatnot too badly.

You might want to take a look at that link's URL.

[Nifft]

- Warlock
- Dragonfire Adept
- Binder
- Totemist
- Incarnate
- Artificier
- Psion
- Psychic Warrior
- Ardent
- Swordsage
- Crusader
- Warblade
- Wildshape Monk

... you could build quite an interesting world from non-Vancian casters.

[digiman619]

Fixed my url.

[Afgncaap5]

- Warlock
- Dragonfire Adept
- Binder
- Totemist
- Incarnate
- Artificier
- Psion
- Psychic Warrior
- Ardent
- Swordsage
- Crusader
- Warblade
- Wildshape Monk

... you could build quite an interesting world from non-Vancian casters.

Oh, indeed you could. Might be fun to do a D&D game with all the magic classes that don't use technical spells some day.

From that list, I think that the Binder is the most interesting non-Vancian from WotC. The actual effects aren't Vancian at all, mostly taking the form of long-term passive effects, but the actual execution (prepare a ritual, perform a magic thing, get an unusual effect) are almost Vancian in slow motion. Binder's are almost slow-burn wizards in a way.

Still non-Vancian for the purposes that we're talking about, of course, though I could see some commoners looking at the preparation and execution of both kinds of magic and seeing roughly the same thing through their eyes.

[Aeturo]

That's actually not a bad idea. My group has a bit of a sorcerer/wizard addiction and a campaign with only non standard casters could help break the ice and expand their horizons. Plus, like you said, it would make the world quite interesting. Thank you all again for your help.

[Swaoeaeieu]

I like the sound of SoP. But i have one question, from what i read these spheres have a theme and certain standart effects. But when combining or empowering them, you need to conferr with te GM. does that put a lot of strain on a GM? cuz i have it busy enough as is XD

[digiman619]

I like the sound of SoP. But i have one question, from what i read these spheres have a theme and certain standart effects. But when combining or empowering them, you need to conferr with te GM. does that put a lot of strain on a GM? cuz i have it busy enough as is XD

What, do you mean advanced talents, ritual and spellcrafting? By default, they're disallowed; so if you aren't ready to deal with it, you don't have to worry about it.

[Swaoeaeieu]

What, do you mean advanced talents, ritual and spellcrafting? By default, they're disallowed; so if you aren't ready to deal with it, you don't have to worry about it.

what i meant was this part:


Each Sphere has a few basic uses that are thematic to the Sphere. In addition, there are numerous talents within each Sphere, which expand what you can do with a given Sphere. These talents aren't merely the equivalent of spells, but rather ways in which the Sphere can be used so you could combine your talents to create a specific ability, but through the use of different talents of the same sphere achieve a different result.

if you mix and match talents to customize the effect of your spells, does that mean you would have to check with the GM each time you tried a new combo of powers that may or may not work together?

[Mehangel]

if you mix and match talents to customize the effect of your spells, does that mean you would have to check with the GM each time you tried a new combo of powers that may or may not work together?

Maybe you aren't grasping how spherecasting works. Perhaps to better explain this lets first walk through the character creation process.

Tim wants to build a mage, and thus chooses the Incanter class. As a level 1 Incanter, he gains a total of 4 talents: 2 talents plus an additional 2 talents from the casting class feature.

Tim spends his 4 talents as follows: Destruction Sphere, Explosive Orb, Protection Sphere, Armored Magic

Tim chose Intelligence as his casting ability modifier (CAM), and has an Int score of 18; modifier +4. This means that Tim has a spell pool of 5 (level + Int mod).

With the chosen allotment of talents and spheres, Tim has the following allotment of available sphere abilities (Think of the following as his spell list):

Destruction Sphere
0 SP: Destructive Blast - 1d6 bludgeoning damage as melee or ranged touch attack.
1 SP: Destructive Blast - 2d6 bludgeoning damage as melee or ranged touch attack.
1 SP: Explosive Orb - 1d6 bludgeoning damage in 10-ft radius burst.
2 SP: Explosive Orb - 2d6 bludgeoning damage in 10-ft radius burst.
Protection Sphere
0 SP: Barrier Ward - concentration, 10-ft radius force-field surrounding yourself w/ 5 hit points.
1 SP: Barrier Ward - 1 round, 10-ft radius force-field surrounding yourself w/ 5 hit points.
1 SP: Deflection Aegis - 1 hour, +1 Deflection bonus to AC
1 SP: Armored Magic - 1 hour, +3 Armor bonus to AC
1 SP: Armored Magic - 1 hour, +1 Shield bonus to AC

[Vogie]

For a non-SoP suggestion, you could look at the Words of Power from Pathfinder Ultimate Magic. It has some flaws, though, but with a fair bit of love it could work.

[EldritchWeaver]

Go to the wiki (spheresofpower.wikidot.com) it's all there. Basically you have at will effects based on which 'spheres' you decide to level into, which can be augmented a certain number of times per day costing spell points. It's easy to use and smoothes out the caster power curve somewhat.


There's the third party Spheres of Power, and then we have the WotC-approved Spell Points and Recharge Magic at Unearthed Arcana.

The wiki includes a homebrewed conversion of the Recharge Magic for the use in SoP. Not sure how balanced it is though.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Maybe you aren't grasping how spherecasting works. Perhaps to better explain this lets first walk through the character creation process.

Tim wants to build a mage, and thus chooses the Incanter class. As a level 1 Incanter, he gains a total of 4 talents: 2 talents plus an additional 2 talents from the casting class feature.

Tim spends his 4 talents as follows: Destruction Sphere, Explosive Orb, Protection Sphere, Armored Magic

Tim chose Intelligence as his casting ability modifier (CAM), and has an Int score of 18; modifier +4. This means that Tim has a spell pool of 5 (level + Int mod).

With the chosen allotment of talents and spheres, Tim has the following allotment of available sphere abilities (Think of the following as his spell list):

Destruction Sphere
0 SP: Destructive Blast - 1d6 bludgeoning damage as melee or ranged touch attack.
1 SP: Destructive Blast - 2d6 bludgeoning damage as melee or ranged touch attack.
1 SP: Explosive Orb - 1d6 bludgeoning damage in 10-ft radius burst.
2 SP: Explosive Orb - 2d6 bludgeoning damage in 10-ft radius burst.
Protection Sphere
0 SP: Barrier Ward - concentration, 10-ft radius force-field surrounding yourself w/ 5 hit points.
1 SP: Barrier Ward - 1 round, 10-ft radius force-field surrounding yourself w/ 5 hit points.
1 SP: Deflection Aegis - 1 hour, +1 Deflection bonus to AC
1 SP: Armored Magic - 1 hour, +3 Armor bonus to AC
1 SP: Armored Magic - 1 hour, +1 Shield bonus to AC

That DOES help. thanks

[Nifft]

That's actually not a bad idea. My group has a bit of a sorcerer/wizard addiction and a campaign with only non standard casters could help break the ice and expand their horizons. Plus, like you said, it would make the world quite interesting. Thank you all again for your help.

Have a great game.

Be sure to tell us how it goes.

[Aeturo]

I will. Just my luck though that this great idea is shown to me a week after I told my group I'm taking a break from DMing for a while to give the others in my group a chance to try. For now I'll experiment with these different casters in their campaigns to get a better idea of how each one functions in play so I can better utilize them in my campaign.

[Marthinwurer]

There's always the Vancian to Psionics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?194002-3-5-A-Translation-of-Vancian-Spellcasting-to-Psionic-Mechanics) project, which effectively translates core spells to spell points, while taking the fact that spell points are now used into account.

[Aeturo]

Before I read that long vancian to psionics post how is it different than playing a spell to power erudite besides the amount of times per day you can use things?

[Aeturo]

My concern is now reading the 339 page PDF if someone could sum up the differences between S2P and the Vancian to Psionics

[Aeturo]

I've started creating the non vancian campaign setting including everything but the wildshape monk. I've made the various types of magic practice cultural differences and their culture is heavily based on the magic type they use, though I sprinkled in Sphere Casters into the cultures that didn't have enough casters as the others(ex: I put Warlock, Binder, and Sphere Casters restricted to Death, Illusion, War, Life, Conjuration, and a few others into one under the Occult idea).

[Nifft]

I've started creating the non vancian campaign setting including everything but the wildshape monk. I've made the various types of magic practice cultural differences and their culture is heavily based on the magic type they use, though I sprinkled in Sphere Casters into the cultures that didn't have enough casters as the others(ex: I put Warlock, Binder, and Sphere Casters restricted to Death, Illusion, War, Life, Conjuration, and a few others into one under the Occult idea).

Cool.

If you write it up somewhere, please link it here (and maybe in the World Building forum too).

[Aeturo]

Will do. I'll probably post it in world building soon because I'm not the best at it and will want advice on what to improve.

[Ualaa]

Two more points on Spheres of Power.



First Point.

A sphere is not necessarily entirely, this for 1 that for 2.

Warp has a number of talents, which you can mix and match.
But each of those has a cost, and a benefit.
You don't necessarily need to use them in specific mixes, but you can if that's easier.



Base Warp Sphere (no talents invested)
Teleport (Standard Action)
Target Yourself + up to a heavy load or Someone else + their heavy load
Close Range (25 ft., plus 5 ft./2 levels)

That's zero spell points, so unlimited uses.
Alternatively, you can spend a spell point (you have one for every Sphere casting class level, plus your modifier for your casting stat).

Cost: 1 Spell Point
Change the Range from Close to Medium (100 ft., plus 10 ft./level).



Some of the Warp Talents
Distant Teleport - When you spend the Spell Point to increase the range from Close to Medium, it is instead increased from Close to Long.
So now, it is essentially a Dimension Door.

Group Teleport - You can spend an extra Spell Point, to teleport up to +1 creatures per 2 caster levels.

Ranged Teleport - You don't need to be touching your target(s), but they need to be within Close range of you.

Unseeing Teleport - You can spend an extra Spell Point, to teleport to a location you cannot see.



Playing around with these, we have some options:

0 SP - Self or 1 Target (within Close Range), up to Close Range (Distance).
The Base Ability, possibly with 'Ranged Teleport' too.

1 SP - Self of 1 Target (within Close Range), up to Long Range (Distance).
Using 'Distant Teleport', possibly with 'Ranged Teleport' too.

1 SP - Reposition (Multiple willing targets within Close Range).
I'm using 'Ranged Teleport' to hit those in Close Range, and 'Group Teleport' to move multiple targets.
If I were level 6... Close Range would be 40 feet.
So for a spell point, I could move myself and up to three additional targets who are all within 8 squares of me, up to 8 squares (40 ft.).
There isn't a talent called 'Reposition', but if we're surprised in a hallway... it could be very beneficial to swap the placement of the Rogue and the Fighter, and maybe while we're at it to move the Wizard somewhere that gives him 'Line of Effect' for his next turn.

3 SP - Get Out of Dodge
I have Ranged Teleport, so can (at level 6) affect targets in Close Range (25 ft., plus 5 ft./2 levels... so those within a 40 ft., radius of me).
I spend an extra spell point, to take 3 additional targets (Group Teleport).
I spend an extra spell point, for Long Range instead of Close (Distant Teleport changes the boost from Medium to Long, for the SP).
I spend an extra spell point, for going to a location I cannot see (Unseeing Teleport).
This is an 'evacuate' spell, taking myself and three friends up to 400 ft. plus 40 ft./level (640 ft.) away; hopefully there are only four of us, as number five and beyond would be left behind.



Second Point

You can throw the book at your group, and say build an Incanter taking the spheres/talents that you want.

But perhaps you prefer the writing of a specific author.
And the magic system from their world.

Or you just want to create something yourself.
Going through the various options, you build a few magic using classes.

You use the chassis of the Incanter.
This is a lot of magical strength (+20 CL, by level 20), but only (+10 BAB, by level 20).
You decide that your first magic class cannot cast in armor, without suffering arcane spell failure.
For this, you take the 'Somatic Casting' drawback twice.
This gets your class 1 bonus (plus an additional bonus every 3 levels) spell points extra.

You decide this order of magic has access to Healing Magic (Life Sphere), Travel Magic (Warp Sphere), and maybe a few other choices.
So people who end up taking this class choose their powers from six spheres (or whatever works for you, based on their theme).



A different caster type is similar to the 'Summoner' class.
But you're still going to build off of the Incanter chasis.

These ones, while they don't have armor proficiency per se, armor will not interfere with their casting.
It doesn't cost anything for this, as by default there is no arcane spell failure unless you take disadvantages.

The big sphere is Conjuration (for their Summons, which is similar to an Eidolon).
You give them access to Protection (for buffs).
And maybe Divination, because you want them to scry or do the equivalent.
Anyway, decide on the features they get or at least have access to.



So you can basically build six (or one... whatever) magic using classes.
And say these are the spellcaster options in my game.
Maybe next game will have a different feel to it, but this one is themed after 'An Interesting Novel', and you're trying to duplicate the feel of magic in that setting.

You can build a variety of magic using classes, using the options within Spheres of Power as your chassis for these classes.

Combine spheres in a variety of ways, to create interesting combinations.

[Boogastreehouse]

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I reviewed Spheres of Power, on Amazon:

>Extensive and informative post<


This was a great explanation! On my occasional visits to this forum, I would sometimes see people refer to Spheres of Power, but I couldn't ever find a good description of the system. This is a great explanation. Thanks for taking the time.

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