Mages_Magnificent_Mansion Questions

[kalos72]

Two really...

1. Can you teleport into one from outside? I am looking for places my group to meet that can be save from scrying and teleportation attacks while we rest.
2. Can you store items in one? Again, if my groups uses one to rest in each night, can they store thier extra gear in it or do they have to remove it all at the end of the spell?

I have made theses for use at a specific location tying that mansion to the same space but I am not sure what happens when you travel or if there is a way around it.

Key of Neverwinter Slumber
Ornate stone key on a chain that when inserted into a unique stone carved relief of a large door used throughout Neverwinter, opens to the specific Mage’s Magnificent Mansion “instance” created by the Key.
On Use - Mage’s Magnificent Mansion - lv7 Wizard spell@13thx2000gp=182000gpv
Must be “House” Member -50% cost
Cost: 182000gp -50%= 91000gp
Time: 91 days

[Segev]

Just casting the spell creates a new instance each time, which is destroyed completely when ended. I believe the spell specifies that anything left inside is dumped by where the entrance was when the spell ends, so, no, you can't store things in it. Your magic item is free to open on the same instance every time, however.

Because it is an extradimensional space, it is technically on another plane. You would need plane shift, not teleport, to magically get into it. This is problematic for the would-be magnificent mansion invader, because plane shift requires a forked rod made of materials which correspond to the specific plane to which you're going. They'd have to figure out the specific materials for your specific extradimensional mansion that you created that specific time you cast it.

[Slithery D]

Two really...

1. Can you teleport into one from outside? I am looking for places my group to meet that can be save from scrying and teleportation attacks while we rest.
2. Can you store items in one? Again, if my groups uses one to rest in each night, can they store thier extra gear in it or do they have to remove it all at the end of the spell?


1. No. It's an extraplanar space. If you'd already been there I suppose you could Gate to it from elsewhere, otherwise I don't see a way to target it. Maybe some really random assortment of metals and shapes constitute a workable focus key for Plane Shift, but I don't see how you could figure it out and craft one during the duration.

2. No, the space goes "poof" when the duration expires. I'd probably have everything inside dumped into the spot where it was originally cast.

[Venger]

Two really...

1. Can you teleport into one from outside? I am looking for places my group to meet that can be save from scrying and teleportation attacks while we rest.
2. Can you store items in one? Again, if my groups uses one to rest in each night, can they store thier extra gear in it or do they have to remove it all at the end of the spell?

I have made theses for use at a specific location tying that mansion to the same space but I am not sure what happens when you travel or if there is a way around it.

Key of Neverwinter Slumber
Ornate stone key on a chain that when inserted into a unique stone carved relief of a large door used throughout Neverwinter, opens to the specific Mage’s Magnificent Mansion “instance” created by the Key.
On Use - Mage’s Magnificent Mansion - lv7 Wizard spell@13thx2000gp=182000gpv
Must be “House” Member -50% cost
Cost: 182000gp -50%= 91000gp
Time: 91 days

1) certain people, such as silver keys (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061106a&page=2) can, but it's normally not possible unless you're one of the people designated.

2) yeah you can take your stuff in there with you as long as it fits in the mansion.

[DarkSoul]

If you're creating these keys from scratch, then make the effects however you want. If someone holding a key is able to teleport into the mansion it links to, fine, but that kind of defeats the purpose of the keys. Also, if you want it to be a persistent space that you can store items in even when no one's there, that's fine too.

[kalos72]

So if I go the key route meaning they are tied to a specific place, the archway, they stay persistent and I can keep my crap in there. The spell, is a new instance every time, meaning no gear can stay in the mansion after its duration is over.

And we agree that neither of them would be easily ported, shifted into and are pretty secure as far as extra dimensional space goes?

I have though about demiplanes but cant get past the incredible amount of detail needed to keep my goodies/good safe.

[Jack_Simth]

Two really...

1. Can you teleport into one from outside? I am looking for places my group to meet that can be save from scrying and teleportation attacks while we rest.As noted by many, many people: It is a separate plane. By RAW, it only exists during the spell's duration, and you're creating a new one each time, so other than Wish transport (which will get you ANYWHERE), Gate, Plane Shift (if you can somehow get the associated tuning fork, but that might be a touch difficult... there are ways to bypass the need for the tuning fork, though, such as Planar Binding an Astral Deva - spell like abilities don't require a focus), obscure class features, dispelling of the effect, and similar, you're safe. Given the size of the list, you may want to consider setting a watch.

As to scrying... you get a +5 bonus for being on another plane. You get to make the floor plan, so you can lead-line the walls for free. That'll make it proof against the standard scrying spells... but not gathering info via non-Scrying effects such as Discern Location, Commune, Contact Other Plane, and so on.

2. Can you store items in one? Again, if my groups uses one to rest in each night, can they store thier extra gear in it or do they have to remove it all at the end of the spell?You can bring it in... but unlike with Rope Trick, what happens to things inside at the end of the spell isn't defined. They might still be there when next you cast it. They might get dumped out at the end of the duration. They might end up on the Astral. They might turn into animated objects with the vampire template that think you're dinner. Ask your DM, as your DM is the only one who can give a solid answer for your table.
I have made theses for use at a specific location tying that mansion to the same space but I am not sure what happens when you travel or if there is a way around it.For a Custom wondrous item, all bets are off. It's specifically called out that magic items don't always exactly follow the rules of the base spells - a Ring of the Ram is a fine example of this. The mechanics of the spell aren't necessarily relevant to a magic item. Your DM will have to approve the item anyway, though, so....

[icefractal]

Being able to store stuff in a M^3 has long been a desire of mine as well. Over various campaigns, I've come up with three ways:

1) Treat an item that can maintain a M^3 all day (2/day should do it) as maintaining a specific instance and always opening to that instance. Variant: Require it to be continuous.

2) Combine an item of M^3 (x/day, or at will) with a storage device like an Enveloping Pit / Portable Hole. Say that stuff which fits in the storage can persist in the mansion.

3) Extremely high-end way - create an intelligent item that can use Miracle and Gate (travel version) at will (I did say extremely) and then have it use Miracle to emulate M^3 and Telekinesis, as well as whatever else would be useful. The item creates an extradimensional space constructed out of many mansions, using gates and telekinesis to move items from the parts that are about to collapse into the fresh parts, as well as linking up all the parts and providing convenient navigation.

How large a space it can maintain depends on how generously the item's actions are ruled. In the case that it can be considered built into the structure of the mansion and able to act anywhere, it can maintain an absolutely huge space. But even in the worst case that it needs to scry/gate to see or target anything, it can still maintain a moderately large cluster of mansions - 12 hours is a lot of actions.

[Jack_Simth]

3) Extremely high-end way - create an intelligent item that can use Miracle and Gate (travel version) at will (I did say extremely) and then have it use Miracle to emulate M^3 and Telekinesis, as well as whatever else would be useful. The item creates an extradimensional space constructed out of many mansions, using gates and telekinesis to move items from the parts that are about to collapse into the fresh parts, as well as linking up all the parts and providing convenient navigation.

How large a space it can maintain depends on how generously the item's actions are ruled. In the case that it can be considered built into the structure of the mansion and able to act anywhere, it can maintain an absolutely huge space. But even in the worst case that it needs to scry/gate to see or target anything, it can still maintain a moderately large cluster of mansions - 12 hours is a lot of actions.

... make that Wish instead of Miracle, add Teleport Through Time, and you've got a Tardis....

[Segev]

... make that Wish instead of Miracle, add Teleport Through Time, and you've got a Tardis....

My brain helpfully played the theme song for me when I read this quote. Well played, sir.

[Cirtona Pox]

I can give you detailed (and lengthy) instructions on constructing a TARDIS in 3.5. It is by no means simple and requires agreement of the entire party but when completed it can allow the DM to create a campaign of "one offs".

Interested?

[MisterKaws]

Dvati spellcasters could technically gate into one by using Mindsight to detect the people there and target them with random divinations. The 'technically' portion is because Dvati twins have transdimensional unlimited-range telepathy between each other, so some DMs might say you don't qualify for it because of the single-target limitation.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Dvati spellcasters could technically gate into one by using Mindsight to detect the people there and target them with random divinations. The 'technically' portion is because Dvati twins have transdimensional unlimited-range telepathy between each other, so some DMs might say you don't qualify for it because of the single-target limitation.

You might be able to get in with Transdimensional Spell, if you can find a teleport effect with an area. I think there was one that randomly switched the positions of creatures in its area, but i can't recall the name.
And you need a spellcaster who actually takes the (incredibly situational) feat of course. Because most just use force effects for the incorporeal/ethereal angle. :smalltongue:

[Segev]

I can give you detailed (and lengthy) instructions on constructing a TARDIS in 3.5. It is by no means simple and requires agreement of the entire party but when completed it can allow the DM to create a campaign of "one offs".

Interested?

Sure! Please send me a PM; it could be fun to read. :smallsmile:

[Jowgen]

According to the FAQ, Extradimensional spaces are indeed not considered part of the plane they are accessed from and can not be reached via teleport. This is in line with MotP, which describes Demiplanes as a "catch-all category that covers all extradimensional spaces that function like planes but have measurable size and limited access".

However, what often gets overlooked is that "characters cannot use plane shift or similar spells to travel to or from a demiplane, except at the specific locations where the demiplane is close to its coterminous plane." (MotP p. 154). The same section goes on to exlain that Demiplanes are not coexistent with the Ethereal Plane or other Transitive Planes, so spells that require access to the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, or the Plane of Shadow do not function. One exception is that some limited locations may still have a tenuous connection to the Astral Plane, so spells that use the Astral Plane can work within 100 feet of such weak spots, though such spells are considered impeded (as the impeded magic trait).

Based on that, I think the RAW is that you can't teleport, plane shift etc into an Extradimensional space, although you might be able to plane shift out if you are close enough to the exit (I assume a weak spot) and can overcome the impeded trait. The fun in this is that this makes enveloping pits far more effective prisons than one might assume, as their access point can be straight up closed.

One thing that can explicitly access Demiplanes though are Planar Breaches, as created by the Precipitate (Complete) Breach spells, as well as a few specifc abilities.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The same section goes on to exlain that Demiplanes are not coexistent with the Ethereal Plane or other Transitive Planes, so spells that require access to the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, or the Plane of Shadow do not function. One exception is that some limited locations may still have a tenuous connection to the Astral Plane, so spells that use the Astral Plane can work within 100 feet of such weak spots, though such spells are considered impeded (as the impeded magic trait).

That's not quite true. The transitive planes are not coexistent with a demiplane (because demiplanes are limited), but a demiplane is usually coterminous with at least one of them, allowing travel if you're in the right spot on the relevant transitive plane.
It also means that the demiplane is (usually) entirely coterminous with the relevant transitive plane.

Those created with Genesis (the spell) are always coterminous to the Ethereal plane. So spells that require the ethereal always work on one.

Effect: A demiplane coterminous with the Ethereal Plane, centered on your location
Those created with Genesis (the psionic power) are always coterminous to the Astral plane. So spells that require the astral always work on one.

Effect: A demiplane coterminous with the Astral Plane, centered on your location

Other demiplanes (naturally occuring or created with a method other than the above) may be coterminous to any of the transitive planes, all of them or none. Or they may only be coterminous sometimes, either on a fixed schedule or at random times.
There are examples of all of those in MotP.

[kalos72]

So with the cast spell and using it on the road if you will, if the enemy is within 100 feet of the spot we cast the spell from, they might be able to get into the mansion?

Same goes for the location specific magic item I guess? If someone goes to the archway, then can get into the space?

Demi-plane security is still an outstanding issue in y campaign because the group wants to use two of them for item/construct creation and then just portal them to the players castle.

[sleepyphoenixx]

So with the cast spell and using it on the road if you will, if the enemy is within 100 feet of the spot we cast the spell from, they might be able to get into the mansion

Only those you designate may enter the mansion, and the portal is shut and made invisible behind you when you enter.
Only with an ability that lets them enter a locked portal, like the Silver Key. Which is very, very rare, so you really shouldn't worry about it unless your DM is out to get you.
They also have to find the portal first, so unless your enemies follow you around with True Seeing and see you cast it or can track you it's unlikely.
Just don't cast it right on the road and go 120ft or more off to the side (the range of True Seeing) if you want to be really safe. Or fly up if you can.


Same goes for the location specific magic item I guess? If someone goes to the archway, then can get into the space?
A custom item could go any way you like. You could just as easily make the key move you and anyone you touch to the mansion, and have no portal at all.
But if it's a fixed portal that's just locked without the key then yes, someone with the right abilities can get through.


Demi-plane security is still an outstanding issue in y campaign because the group wants to use two of them for item/construct creation and then just portal them to the players castle.
Demiplane security is complicated. Mostly because Wish can technically teleport anyone anywhere.
But your enemies still have to know your demiplane actually exists and need to be able to unambiguously identify it to wish themselves there, so protecting it (and yourself of course) against divination helps a lot.

Still, there is no such thing as the perfect defense in D&D. You can make it very hard to find or enter your demiplane, but if your DM really wants your enemies to get there they will, without going outside the rules (assuming your DM knows all the relevant tricks or posts here).
But if you're going to build constructs anyway nothing is stopping you from leaving a security force to defend it or at least inform you when something happens.

[Jack_Simth]

A warning: Mage's Magnificent Mansion's door is merely invisible when shut, and See Invisibility is a fine spell to permanency, and has no range limit.

[sleepyphoenixx]

A warning: Mage's Magnificent Mansion's door is merely invisible when shut, and See Invisibility is a fine spell to permanency, and has no range limit.

It's also shut. Without an ability to open it you can find the entrance, but you can't get in. You can wait for the party to come out, but you'll be facing a freshly rested party which is hardly ideal.
And See Invisibility is still subject to the usual modifiers for spot checks. Don't put it out in the open if you're really worried about someone coming to ambush you while you're in it.

[kalos72]

I think the randomly casting of this spell seems straight forward for all but the most determined attackers/DM.

How about the static location version of the custom item? One idea was to use the custom item to give local residents homes, like an aprtment complex or something.

Is the fact that the door to these mansions, always in the same spot a security concern for the average scenario?

Imagine a room, with 10 stone archways carved into its walls, each the portal for an attuned custom item. One key(custom item) works only on its specific door. Maybe make the room have an Anitpathy:Evil and maybe a weirdstone or something to protect it?

[Jowgen]

So with the cast spell and using it on the road if you will, if the enemy is within 100 feet of the spot we cast the spell from, they might be able to get into the mansion?

By RAW, no. While you can make an argument that the entrance is a "weak spot", and thus can plane shift out of the mansion; as written the weak spot exception does not apply to the general rule that you can not plane shift into a demiplane.

[Crake]

For the people saying that plane shift wouldn't work because you need the focus, I direct you to psionic plane shift, as well as any SLA plane shift ever. If people know the plane exists (for example, they use divinations to find out where you're staying) a dedicated group could find a way in. A solution to this problem is to coat your entire mansion with forbiddance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm), and probably private sanctum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesPrivateSanctum.htm) too for added privacy. That would make the only way in or out through the door, which only you have the key to.

[Jack_Simth]

It's also shut. Without an ability to open it you can find the entrance, but you can't get in. You can wait for the party to come out, but you'll be facing a freshly rested party which is hardly ideal.What happens if you Dispel the door?

[sleepyphoenixx]

What happens if you Dispel the door?

Huh, didn't even think of that. It's never actually come up before in my games.
The same thing that happens if you're still inside when the spell ends normally i'd say.
I don't think it's explicitly written anywhere but common interpretation is that you get dumped out, along with all your stuff, similar to Rope Trick.
Looks like extradimensional spaces aren't as safe to rest in as people like to believe if your enemies have spellcasters around.

The question is, would you be safer resting in something like a Leomund's Hidden Lodge? The only way to find is is getting really close and making a DC 30 survival check. Or having Detect Magic i guess.
Or would it be better to go for defensibility instead of trying to stay hidden?

[kalos72]

I think the randomly casting of this spell seems straight forward for all but the most determined attackers/DM.

How about the static location version of the custom item? One idea was to use the custom item to give local residents homes, like an aprtment complex or something.

Is the fact that the door to these mansions, always in the same spot a security concern for the average scenario?

Imagine a room, with 10 stone archways carved into its walls, each the portal for an attuned custom item. One key(custom item) works only on its specific door. Maybe make the room have an Anitpathy:Evil and maybe a weirdstone or something to protect it?

Thats for spell version, but the item version? See above...

[Jack_Simth]

Huh, didn't even think of that. It's never actually come up before in my games.
The same thing that happens if you're still inside when the spell ends normally i'd say.
I don't think it's explicitly written anywhere but common interpretation is that you get dumped out, along with all your stuff, similar to Rope Trick.I should probably have phrased that better. The question isn't about the specific mechanics of the result. The question is pointing out that if they can find it, it's not as secure as is commonly held. Yeah, it's a nice step to include in your night defense. But nothing is perfect: any single thing has a counter. The solution is, of course, to not use a single thing. You may not be able to make the perfect defense, but you can make it expensive to get past them all. So you drop your buddies in a portable hole, cast Xorn Movement to go a bit underground, cast MMM well out of line-of-sight and line-of-effect (and through enough dirt to block Detect Magic and anything with a similar penetration profile - may also need a quick Disintegrate to make a hole to summon the door), go through the door, shut it behind you, and let your buddies out of the Portable Hole. There's still ways in, but it's a much more expensive operation. Of course, you also spent more resources on sleeping there...

[Cirrylius]

How about a portable auto-reset MMM turret? Take the turret inside and it's mostly safe.

Is there any non-prohibitively expensive way to add the ability to let it use daily uses-per-day to let it resist a Dispel attempt or two? A secret hideout with an Off switch on the outside is kind of a bummer.

[kalos72]

In another thread I made recently, I came up with this idea.

Couldnt you use this spell, or an item casting it, to GREATLY increase the number of people a ship/spelljammer/cart/wagon could carry? Just cast it INSIDE the vehicle, the portal now is moving yet in the same spot.... :)

Is there a weight limit to this spell?

[Jowgen]

In another thread I made recently, I came up with this idea.

Couldnt you use this spell, or an item casting it, to GREATLY increase the number of people a ship/spelljammer/cart/wagon could carry? Just cast it INSIDE the vehicle, the portal now is moving yet in the same spot.... :)

That's a tricky issue. Nothing is truly immobile, but only immobile in relation to something else. If a DM decides that a particular vehicle is big enough or for some other reason qualifies as the thing that the spell's entrance is immobile to, then it works; but a DM might just as well decide that the portal is immobile in relation to the planet beneath.

Personally, I let things count as immobile in relation to big vehicles, because I'd rather not have ships torn appart by someone on deck unwittingly casting wall of force during combat.