How to make a player-lich?

[MissJynx]

Hi there!

I DM for a group of players once a week. We recently switched to 5e, and one of the players, the forest-gnome wizard, wishes to become a lich, eventually. His character has specialized himself in the necromancy school and he basically wants to control an army of undeads.

I was wondering how we could implement this into a playable template/(race?), for his little gnomette, as the MM doesn't have stats for a player-lich.

The gnomette is quite the insane, creative, cute but unstable character already, who is looking for her long lost mother in the Abyss. I thought of involving her family as a part of the ritual/sacrifice needed to make her phylactery...
Kind of like "You finally meet your mother again, bond with her after all those years, maybe even present her to your new family, then you realize that the process involving the transformation to a lich would mean sacrificing all of your family, including your newborn daughter, and mother."
I'm pretty sure this would work as a "ultimate evil ritual", as the only she desires even more than finding her mother, is power, and mostly, knowledge itself.
With immortality, she could go on studying the mysteries of the world and arcane, a thing she would greatly aspire to do.

What would you suggest be the ability score bonuses, for a lich?
What special actions/ bonus spells should i add?
What would you recommend as a prerequisite to becoming a lich?
Any ideas on how to proceed with the phylactery ritual?

Thanks!

[gfishfunk]

I would keep everything exactly the same, except:

The gnome becomes a Lich when it creates a phylactery. The phylactery is a magic item that grants resistance to necrotic damage, vulnerability to radiant damage, and gives the character an additional descriptor of 'undead'. After the PC dies while the phylactery exists, the player will resurrect within 1d4 days (or whatever you would like) wherever the phylactery is. The phylactery is noticeably magic. An evil creature can attempt to control the PC if it has the phylactery with a DC25 Arcana check.

[Ninja_Prawn]

There's a lot to unpack here...

A lich is an extremely powerful individual who has a massive effect on the world around them. Do you really want that in a PC? Are you willing to give the other PCs something equally awesome? How would you challenge them afterwards? Perhaps you have answers to these questions, but if you don't the obvious answer is that the gnome becoming a lich (or choosing to save her family instead) is the end of their story. That represents their victory, at which point that character is retired or made into a recurring NPC.

If you are going to implement lichdom and you don't want to play it as a kind of super-powered True Polymorph, I'd suggest making it an epic boon. Or even a series of epic boons - first you gain super-powerful necromancy, then you gain some of the MM lich's offensive abilities, then you complete your transformation, become immortal, gain a phylactery (and the associated requirement to feed on the souls of the living) and some of the MM lich's defensive abilities. That way, the rest of the party is keeping (approximate) pace because they're getting their own epic boons at the same time. For reference, I wrote up similar rules for becoming an archfey in my Forests and Faeries supplement.

Then there's the question of the lore. I totally agree that an unspeakable ritual where the character must choose to do something both personally painful and morally repugnant is necessary, and I think sacrificing your family is a good way to go. Especially if the PC is given an irrevocable choice between lichdom for herself or rescuing her mother from eternal torment. But where will the PC learn the ritual? Traditionally, the secrets of lichdom are known only to liches, gods, archdevils and demon lords (maybe a few others), so it would make sense for the PC to have to earn or steal the secrets from a very powerful entity. That's a campaign arc in itself. But of course, your setting is your own. You're free to make the secrets as easy or hard to find as you like.

[Vogonjeltz]

Hi there!

I DM for a group of players once a week. We recently switched to 5e, and one of the players, the forest-gnome wizard, wishes to become a lich, eventually. His character has specialized himself in the necromancy school and he basically wants to control an army of undeads.

I was wondering how we could implement this into a playable template/(race?), for his little gnomette, as the MM doesn't have stats for a player-lich.

The gnomette is quite the insane, creative, cute but unstable character already, who is looking for her long lost mother in the Abyss. I thought of involving her family as a part of the ritual/sacrifice needed to make her phylactery...
Kind of like "You finally meet your mother again, bond with her after all those years, maybe even present her to your new family, then you realize that the process involving the transformation to a lich would mean sacrificing all of your family, including your newborn daughter, and mother."
I'm pretty sure this would work as a "ultimate evil ritual", as the only she desires even more than finding her mother, is power, and mostly, knowledge itself.
With immortality, she could go on studying the mysteries of the world and arcane, a thing she would greatly aspire to do.

What would you suggest be the ability score bonuses, for a lich?
What special actions/ bonus spells should i add?
What would you recommend as a prerequisite to becoming a lich?
Any ideas on how to proceed with the phylactery ritual?

Thanks!

A Lich is a monster (behaviorially). It's inappropriate for a PC. If the character becomes a Lich, it should be run as an NPC from there on out, not a PC.

[Gastronomie]

A Lich is a monster (behaviorially). It's inappropriate for a PC. If the character becomes a Lich, it should be run as an NPC from there on out, not a PC.Disagreed. Table-talk is about freedom. Let the players be what they want, once they've done the necessary tasks. Limiting the options for no reason is fun for absolutely nobody.

Be aware that Liches don't get a massive spellcasting boost the moment they turn into a lich. What they do get is just immortality and the touch attack. Their powerful spellcasting is a result of century-long studies, and the day the lich is born, its spellcasting is no different from yesterday, when it was a mortal archmage.

And, becoming immune to death by normal means has no effect on the in-combat abilities (DPR, field control, tankiness etc.) of a player character. Unlike Barbarians and Moon Druids, they don't make good tanks, because it still takes days for them to regenerate. Becoming a lich is not as powerful combat-wise as one may imagine - if anything it's the various reckless ideas a lich can put to use that might prove powerful, but that's creativity, so no problem with that.

Perhaps homebrew a feat or boon that gives the character immortality and the touch attack as a cantrip. That would balance stuff out.

The touch attack would never be a problem if it scales by character level like other cantrips, because it's a melee attack. Perhaps state it doesn't work with Familiars?

[Erys]

Once upon a time when a player finished the ritual to become a lich there was a straight 50/50 of it working... or the person dying (no save).

I think the quest to making a phylactery should be arduous and should include this caveat. If the gnome is truly as gung ho and insane as claimed-> this should be no issue. :smallcool:

[Sigreid]

None of my characters would be willing to associate any further with a character that became a lich. The reasoning would be that given the horrible things they have to do to become and sustain lichdome, you can't possibly trust them.

They might even set about spoiling the ritual if they know it's being attempted or slaying this lich that knows them so well.

As for the mechanics, I'd require them to get their stats to match the ones in the MM as a minimum starting point. Then they would get the resistances and powers. I would assume their lair powers would have to be reserved for where their phylactery is stored. They would have to murder by sacrifice every living being that the feel any emotional bond to, not only killing them but doing it in a ritualistic fashion that sends their souls to be devoured by Orcus. And they would have to form a pact with Orcus for it to work as he is really the one that sustains them. Feeding souls to the phylactery sends the souls to him, and in turn he uses a small amount of power to keep you going. This is clearly fluff I'm making up for it.

Edit: Alternately it's possible the ritual would bind the souls of the sacrificed to the lich so they haunt him and only him. Forcing the lich to unlive constantly besieged by the people he betrayed in his list for power. As he feeds his phylactery, the echos of more and more victims haunt him. Orcus might consider this a good joke.

[Norgrim Malgus]

Since the process to become a Lich is a monumental undertaking, I think it deserves a monumental quest to discover those secrets. You might want to consider a quest to discover the Book of Vile Darkness, which I think would be appropriate. Some liberal use of Legend Lore spells should help the player get some information about past, known Liches, which in turn allows the player to gather more information regarding some aspects of the processes involved in Lichdom, any unique 'side effects' of Lichdom (resistances, necrotic/cold based touch attack/aura and so on). All this should start setting the player on the path to ancient, perhaps lost archives of lore which might mention a certain book that puts all of it together for the final preparations.

As someone else mentioned, becoming a Lich does not mean same day super-powers, it allows that individual time to develop the kinds of magics that have never been catalogued/witnessed....yet.

[RavensLand]

Disagreed. Table-talk is about freedom. Let the players be what they want, once they've done the necessary tasks. Limiting the options for no reason is fun for absolutely nobody.

Be aware that Liches don't get a massive spellcasting boost the moment they turn into a lich. What they do get is just immortality and the touch attack. Their powerful spellcasting is a result of century-long studies, and the day the lich is born, its spellcasting is no different from yesterday, when it was a mortal archmage.

And, becoming immune to death by normal means has no effect on the in-combat abilities (DPR, field control, tankiness etc.) of a player character. Unlike Barbarians and Moon Druids, they don't make good tanks, because it still takes days for them to regenerate. Becoming a lich is not as powerful combat-wise as one may imagine - if anything it's the various reckless ideas a lich can put to use that might prove powerful, but that's creativity, so no problem with that.

Perhaps homebrew a feat or boon that gives the character immortality and the touch attack as a cantrip. That would balance stuff out.

The touch attack would never be a problem if it scales by character level like other cantrips, because it's a melee attack. Perhaps state it doesn't work with Familiars?

I would like to second these suggestions as well as add my own balancing suggestion.

An item as powerful as a phalactery to revive a character indefinitely should probably take up an extra or even all of the characters attunment slots.

[Vogonjeltz]

Disagreed. Table-talk is about freedom. Let the players be what they want, once they've done the necessary tasks. Limiting the options for no reason is fun for absolutely nobody.

Be aware that Liches don't get a massive spellcasting boost the moment they turn into a lich. What they do get is just immortality and the touch attack. Their powerful spellcasting is a result of century-long studies, and the day the lich is born, its spellcasting is no different from yesterday, when it was a mortal archmage.

And, becoming immune to death by normal means has no effect on the in-combat abilities (DPR, field control, tankiness etc.) of a player character. Unlike Barbarians and Moon Druids, they don't make good tanks, because it still takes days for them to regenerate. Becoming a lich is not as powerful combat-wise as one may imagine - if anything it's the various reckless ideas a lich can put to use that might prove powerful, but that's creativity, so no problem with that.

Perhaps homebrew a feat or boon that gives the character immortality and the touch attack as a cantrip. That would balance stuff out.

The touch attack would never be a problem if it scales by character level like other cantrips, because it's a melee attack. Perhaps state it doesn't work with Familiars?

I was referring primarily to the utterly monstrous requirement to eat the souls of other creatures or devolve into a mindless undead.

Players are supposed to be the heroes, not the villains of the story.

Yes, you can let a player become one, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

[Norgrim Malgus]

I would like to second these suggestions as well as add my own balancing suggestion.

An item as powerful as a phalactery to revive a character indefinitely should probably take up an extra or even all of the characters attunment slots.

Not trying to be adversarial, but your recommendation would be unfair. Would you apply this same 'balance' to a mortal Wizard making use of the Clone spells? Two different processes, granted, but they both try to achieve the same end, which is Immortality.

[Addaran]

I was referring primarily to the utterly monstrous requirement to eat the souls of other creatures or devolve into a mindless undead.

Players are supposed to be the heroes, not the villains of the story.

Yes, you can let a player become one, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

That's just your preference. You can play an evil character (even in AL) else there wouldn't be the option to be a willing fiend warlock, necromancer (always evil to raise undead), spell like unhallow, etc. Zentharim wouldn't be an option in pretty much all the official campaign.

Players are supposed to be what was decided at session zero by the players and DM. The players can all be evil and full PVP/backstabbing allowed. Or they are evil but no PVP/backstabbing for X reason decided by everyone (to keep with the teamwork goal of D&D). Or only one player is evil but mostly helps the group/fallow the questlines like Belkar.

[Ninja_Prawn]

If anyone's interested, I formed some thoughts on how I'd implement lichdom and wrote them up here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?505208-Epic-Level-Necromancy). If you like them, you're welcome to use them!

[DragonSorcererX]

A Lich has lots of powers, as others have said, make it an Epic Boon.

[RavensLand]

Not trying to be adversarial, but your recommendation would be unfair. Would you apply this same 'balance' to a mortal Wizard making use of the Clone spells? Two different processes, granted, but they both try to achieve the same end, which is Immortality.

I could have phrased that better, there would possibly be a lot more going on for the player becoming a lich depending on what the do is planning to give them over time.

Personally I also don't think clone is comparable here, it takes 120 days for the new body to mature and I don't know any dms that are okay with that long a of a down time.

[gfishfunk]

If this is what you want to allow in your game, throw out some of the lore.

Make it fit your game, don't make your game fit the lore. In my game, I have a Lich that was created from a magic experiment. He's not evil (though he doesn't hold life as inherently valuable), and it works for my game. I make crap up. I only care what the DMG says to the point that I find it helpful.

Easy adaptions: tell your player that once that PC is a Lich, it is not going to be inherently powerful. Most Liches hide out and create a lair for forty or fifty years while they consolidate their power and really discover how to use their Lich-iness. If that is the route the PC wants to go, push the sheet across the table - this adventure happens now.

Take what the player wants and make it interesting and engaging and that is the key to running any good game. The PC wants to become a Lich? Make it interesting and engaging. Make it a central part of the story. DONT make it overpowered. Give it inherent vulnerabilities. That makes it interesting.

[Asmotherion]

Personal suggestions:

1) Change the Litch requirements. It should be an act of great evil, but not necesserally taxing to the PC. Something with some fluff about 13 souls needed to complete the phylactery, discovering your true name to bind your soul to it, and learning a secret spell that is a combination of the magic jar spell with the clone spell and contigiency spell. The 3 spells mentioned before should be known by the wizard who wants to be a Lich.

2) All you need to add the template is the entry from the MM, and work normally. Put away the legendary actions, and calculate the saving throws: Instead of the proposed values, use the PC's ability scores +their proficiency bonus. Add proficiency to Con saving throws.

3) Give them double proficiency in Arcana

4) Damage resistance to cold, lightning and necrotic

5) Damage imunity to poison and bludgeonig, piercing and slashing from non magical weapons (the latter at your option, and depending how rare it is in your campain for monsters to carry magical weapons. Feel free to remove if necessary)

6) Truesight 120 ft. Double proficiency in perception.

7) Rejuvenation. This is your top priority. If a PC wants to become a Lich, he wants so mostly for this ability. Considering the PC can have a number of clones (as the spell) already, it's not game braking, so you don't need to worry about that. All the other bonuses the Lich (custom) template gives are merelly... well, bonuses. This is the central ability, and you can make a lich template with just this ability alone, if you fear the rest is too much. You can also justyfy this (to yourself mostly) as the PC being a new Lich, and that the rest of the abilities are developed over time, not just by becoming a Lich.

8) Spellcasting: The PC retains his class and spellcasting trait. No need to adjust anything there.

9) Turn Resistance. It's logiacal to have the PC Lich protected against an atempt to turn it.

10) Paralyzing Touch. Use the regular bonus to hit with a spell attack. Treat it as a regular Cantrip Melee Spell Attack, that deals 3d6 cold damage. The DC for the decondary effect is set by your spell save DC.


Finally, feel free to remove abilitied of the template as you feel you should. Overall, this is a template on the very strong side. Here is a list of prioritised abilities in order from most to least importent. If you want to remove things, start from the bottom and up, as the higher the ability is placed in this list, the more tied it is to the core Lich concept (this list does not include the spellcasting trait, witch it assumes you keep, as removing it changes the whole character):

Rejuvenation (the most important ability)
Paralyzing Touch
Damage imunity to poison
Condition Imunity to Charmed, Exhaustion, Frightened, Paralyzed, Poisoned
Double proficiency in Arcana
Add proficiency to Con saving throws
Damage resistance to cold, lightning and necrotic
Change Damage imutity to damage resistance to bludgeonig, piercing and slashing from non magical weapons
Damage imunity to bludgeonig, piercing and slashing from non magical weapons
Truesight 120 ft. Double proficiency in perception.

[Segev]

In 3.5, the Lich (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) template is +4 LA (which is painful for a caster in D&D 3.5).

Now, in 5e, the Lich has legendary and lair abilities, as well as that whole environmental impact thing. You can probably safely remove those from a PC version; call it not being ancient and steeped in enough necromancy, or something.

I'd use the 3.5 template and the 5e monster entry as guidelines for how to build this transformation. Look to how 5e handles lycanthropy, as well, as it's another "afflicted" state that can come about and change the PC's balance.

[Norgrim Malgus]

I could have phrased that better, there would possibly be a lot more going on for the player becoming a lich depending on what the do is planning to give them over time.

Personally I also don't think clone is comparable here, it takes 120 days for the new body to mature and I don't know any dms that are okay with that long a of a down time.

I consider it comparable because both means try to achieve the same end. The Phylactery is a magical construct that binds a Liches essence to it so it can reform, whereas a mortal Wizard is using magic to construct a new body, or several, so that the Wizards essence(soul) can transfer to it. An attempt at Immortality.

Keep in mind that a player that is trying to attain Lichdom will have lengthy downtime as well. Research alone can take years, at least, and not all of that is going to involve traditional 'adventuring'. I get that you think that there should be mitigating factors so that balance is maintained in your mind. By virtue of turning into a Lich, that player will also have a number of cons in addition to the pros of such a state. Undeath tends to balance itself in reasonable fashion when weighing the cost/benefits that come with it.

[Segev]

It's also worth noting that the typical way to use clone is pre-emptively. Cast it and then put the grown product in stasis somehow, such that when you die, you wake up immediately in the cloneed body.

[Norgrim Malgus]

It's also worth noting that the typical way to use clone is pre-emptively. Cast it and then put the grown product in stasis somehow, such that when you die, you wake up immediately in the cloneed body.

Yes, you start the process with an expectation that you might need to use it at some point in the future.

[Segev]

The most fun I've ever had with clone was as a DM. The party was raiding a githyanki fortress on the astral plane, and somebody did something to plane shift it to a Prime world. The elderly wizard they were arguing with (not yet fighting) had been on the astral for a VERY long time, and immediately collapsed to dust and bones as time caught up with him. His clone - made when he was in his prime, ages ago - woke up and was QUITE annoyed. The party didn't even recognize the naked githyanki that came storming out of a secret room until he started ranting at them about their carelessness.

[Norgrim Malgus]

The most fun I've ever had with clone was as a DM. The party was raiding a githyanki fortress on the astral plane, and somebody did something to plane shift it to a Prime world. The elderly wizard they were arguing with (not yet fighting) had been on the astral for a VERY long time, and immediately collapsed to dust and bones as time caught up with him. His clone - made when he was in his prime, ages ago - woke up and was QUITE annoyed. The party didn't even recognize the naked githyanki that came storming out of a secret room until he started ranting at them about their carelessness.

lol, I'm picturing this Githyanki shaking his cane(staff) at the party and telling them to get off his lawn(plane).

[Envyus]

There is actually a way to become a Lich in Curse of Strahd.

The first and biggest requirement to becoming a Lich in 5e is that the caster needs to know how to cast Imprisonment. Then they just have to find out how to make the Phylactery and the Potion that kills them and causes them to be reborn as a Lich.

Orcus knows and asking him seems to be the easiest way of finding out.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Orcus knows and asking him seems to be the easiest way of finding out.

Orcus is basically that one kid who hangs out in the corner of the playground and knows how to 'procure' certain 'items'. Everyone knows he knows, but he's so skeevy that no one really wants to deal with him.

[MissJynx]

If anyone's interested, I formed some thoughts on how I'd implement lichdom and wrote them up here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?505208-Epic-Level-Necromancy). If you like them, you're welcome to use them!

That's awesome!

Thanks for the help :)

[DragonSorcererX]

In 3.5, the Lich (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) template is +4 LA (which is painful for a caster in D&D 3.5).

Now, in 5e, the Lich has legendary and lair abilities, as well as that whole environmental impact thing. You can probably safely remove those from a PC version; call it not being ancient and steeped in enough necromancy, or something.

I'd use the 3.5 template and the 5e monster entry as guidelines for how to build this transformation. Look to how 5e handles lycanthropy, as well, as it's another "afflicted" state that can come about and change the PC's balance.

Aren't Legendary Actions and Lair Actions something one gains over time? A PC wouldn't have enough time to develop something like that.

[Sigreid]

Aren't Legendary Actions and Lair Actions something one gains over time? A PC wouldn't have enough time to develop something like that.

I assume the lair actions occur wherever the lich hides their phylactery. Which I base only on the idea that it's the real source of their power and they would be stronger near it.

Legendary actions are just part of the deal.

[ClintACK]

Whatever you do, make it gradual.

A human boy doesn't become an Archmage the day he starts training as an apprentice wizard.

So, a necromancer doesn't become the MM version of a Lich just as soon as he completes the ritual. He gets a phylactery.... and an auto-resurrection... but keeping the phylactery charged takes ingredients that cost just as much as a Resurrection spell would have cost. And so on...

[Segev]

Whatever you do, make it gradual.

A human boy doesn't become an Archmage the day he starts training as an apprentice wizard.

So, a necromancer doesn't become the MM version of a Lich just as soon as he completes the ritual. He gets a phylactery.... and an auto-resurrection... but keeping the phylactery charged takes ingredients that cost just as much as a Resurrection spell would have cost. And so on...

That seems like a bit of a jerk move, honestly. "You've undergone this expensive and plot-driving ritual and invested time, money, and magical power into it, but it doesn't give you a better effect than paying a cleric to resurrect you the next time you die."

[Vogonjeltz]

That's just your preference. You can play an evil character (even in AL) else there wouldn't be the option to be a willing fiend warlock, necromancer (always evil to raise undead), spell like unhallow, etc. Zentharim wouldn't be an option in pretty much all the official campaign.

Players are supposed to be what was decided at session zero by the players and DM. The players can all be evil and full PVP/backstabbing allowed. Or they are evil but no PVP/backstabbing for X reason decided by everyone (to keep with the teamwork goal of D&D). Or only one player is evil but mostly helps the group/fallow the questlines like Belkar.

That's not just my preference:

PHB 123 sidebar on Alignment: "Generally, evil alignments are for villains and monsters."

Being possible (AL legal in this case) doesn't make it wise.


Whatever you do, make it gradual.

A human boy doesn't become an Archmage the day he starts training as an apprentice wizard.

So, a necromancer doesn't become the MM version of a Lich just as soon as he completes the ritual. He gets a phylactery.... and an auto-resurrection... but keeping the phylactery charged takes ingredients that cost just as much as a Resurrection spell would have cost. And so on...

The cleverest wizards have memorized Montage Sequence for occasions such as this.

[Addaran]

That's not just my preference:

PHB 123 sidebar on Alignment: "Generally, evil alignments are for villains and monsters."

Being possible (AL legal in this case) doesn't make it wise.


There's a difference between generally (in most cases) and inappropriate (never) like you first said.

Sidebars are usually for optional rules or additional insight. There's a lot of places in the book that suggest to having evil characters. Or things that makes absolutely no sense being in the PHB (compared to MM or DMG) if they are not for PCs.

I guess i phrased it badly by saying it just your preference, but it's still a very subjective preference. Some of the devs, some DMs and some players are okay with evil.

[Arkhios]

There's a difference between generally (in most cases) and inappropriate (never) like you first said.

Sidebars are usually for optional rules or additional insight. There's a lot of places in the book that suggest to having evil characters. Or things that makes absolutely no sense being in the PHB (compared to MM or DMG) if they are not for PCs.

-- Some of the devs, some DMs and some players are okay with evil.

I agree. The rules themselves are inherently neutral in the regard of what you should or shouldn't play. The rules provide the means to play either way.
It's the DM and/or a pre-written campaign which will have the final say if evil characters are ok.
I know many people who have ran and played, and who would again run and play a campaign to and with villainous characters. In fact, even I would give it a go. It can prove equally fun in the right circumstances as a more common heroic adventure.

[Ninja_Prawn]

The cleverest wizards have memorized Montage Sequence for occasions such as this.

Hmm... would you mind if I made a Vogonjeltz's Training Montage spell over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479518-GitP-Regulars-as-Spells)? :smallsmile:

[Zorku]

A lot of these high level transformation ideas are great if you want to put this on the back burner, and know that your campaign is going to make it to level 20 and continue on through boons, but if you want this to be a big part of the character early on, and it sounds like your already-a-mad-scientist gnome does, then you probably want this to come into play a lot earlier on than that.

The trouble with this? We all know that a lich starts as a normal enough archmage and goes through a nasty ritual to become a lich, usually out of desperation as they're running out of natural lifespan (and can't be bothered with making young clones or the various fountain of youth options that might exist in their world.)

Hook

One place where there's a lot of leeway, is exactly how they're going to construct their phylactery. Seeing as they're binding their soul to this item in order to make a lot of this happen just so, and the various other properties of it, it's easy enough to imaging that sound of the components started out as already magical items. You could very easily set the character on a quest to round up several relics that have slightly undead themed effects, in order to dole out some lich-like traits well before they go through the ritual. For my own style, I'd want them to do something slightly different than the final traits they gain as a lich, partially because breaking up the traits feels like it waters the concept down and also so that they're giving up some powers in exchange for others, which sort of puts some more weight behind that final decision.

For most settings I would imagine they know of several relics or other magic items that they're probably going to need for the ritual, need a few more they have yet to figure out, and probably aren't starting with anything like a complete version of the ritual in the first place. Through whatever means they know or find out where they can get a little more information on it, but almost certainly without the consent of the people they're going to kill to attain it.

Balance

Where imprisonment is a 9th level spell the actual ritual still has to come fairly late. (I've heard a few ideas for how a lower level lich could sustain themselves, but they're gonna be the laughing stock of lichdom if they're such a babby that they need help feeding themselves.) In terms of gameplay it wouldn't be broken to give them some way to become a lich when they can cast 8th's level spells, but again, this is usually treated as kind of an ultimate magic thing, so that also seems to water down the concept.

Necromancy for Fun and Profit

The necromancy spells in 5th edition are a bit sparse, so you might want to consider translating a few from other editions to hand out to the player. There are some rules in the DMG for scaling damage of custom spells, and there are already a few projects for this kicking around on the net. With your own judgement screening spells to 'homebrew' into your game should be easy, but let's take a glance as the wizarding school of necromancy just to be sure-

Grim harvest restores health for killing blows, based on spell slot level. Probably not going to matter.
Undead thralls is a general necromancy boost. Not impacted by new spells, but seeing as it is a class feature you should get used to handling skeleton turns quickly.
Inured to Death is mostly a resistance you're giving them eventually anyway.
Command Undead. This is mostly about the undead created by NPCs, so if you're ever raiding some necromancer's den and you've fleshed out the world such that wizards use special spells they have access to, then keep this possibility in mind.

Otherwise, I don't expect necromancy spells to go too far off theme. Haven't actually scoured the internet for them myself, but their theme should keep them relatively far away from game breaking territory. Still, use your best judgement.

[Vogonjeltz]

There's a difference between generally (in most cases) and inappropriate (never) like you first said.

Sidebars are usually for optional rules or additional insight. There's a lot of places in the book that suggest to having evil characters. Or things that makes absolutely no sense being in the PHB (compared to MM or DMG) if they are not for PCs.

I guess i phrased it badly by saying it just your preference, but it's still a very subjective preference. Some of the devs, some DMs and some players are okay with evil.

Inappropriate is a value judgment or assessment, not a quantitative term the way never would be.

More to the point, my statement was based on the stated assumptions of the game rules, not my personal opinion. (For clarity, my personal opinion is that it's usually best to follow the game rules to avoid unintended consequences).


Hmm... would you mind if I made a Vogonjeltz's Training Montage spell over here?

As you asked, I don't mind.

Here's a suggestion for it:

Vogonjeltz's Training Montage
5th-level transmutation

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

Choose any number of willing creatures within range to engage in a training montage sequence using materials within range. For every round you concentrate, up to 24 hours of tasks can be condensed and completed by the creatures. All creatures and objects age by the amount of time the montage requires. While concentrating, any creature within range of the montage sequence hears inspiring and thematically appropriate music for whatever tasks are undertaken. An Unwilling creature may attempt a Charisma saving throw at the beginning of each round to escape the montage, success prevents both the aging and training.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of a higher level, the time dilation increases to 10 days with a 6th-level slot, to 30 days with a 7th-level slot, to 180 days with an 8th-level slot, and to a year with a 9th-level slot.

[Zorku]

The charisma check is unnecessary, as unwilling creatures were never valid targets of the spell.

[Ninja_Prawn]

The charisma check is unnecessary, as unwilling creatures were never valid targets of the spell.

Indeed. I have made some changes here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21380721&postcount=226), which include allowing the caster to pick unwilling targets.

[90sMusic]

Here is what I would do personally...

First of all, for stats, a lich's stats aren't anything to write home about. 11/16/16/20/14/16 is something you could attain easily on any character if you desired. At level 20 with all ability score improvements and factoring in bonuses you'd get from race as well, you could've started with stats like 11/14/13/16/12/12. A little above average, but not by much, certainly not outside the realm of possibility for a starting character's rolled stats. I would conclude that becoming a lich doesn't really warrant an increase in any of your ability scores since the given scores could be reached just through IAS's from leveling. I'd leave their scores alone so that whatever they happened to roll and have spent their points on since is reflected rather than simply changing their ability scores into something else or even adding to them.

I would grant the paralyzing touch ability to them because the damage for it isn't all that fantastic and it is melee, so it adds a bit of flavor but is in no way overpowered. Have it's DC scale based on the lich's charisma modifier + 8 + proficiency just as the lich monster's is based the same way.

The biggest increase of power would come with becoming undead and having a phylactery.

For the undead bit, I wouldn't give them all the immunities of an undead because i'd imagine a lot of that would come from being a legendary monster and having centuries to grow stronger, etc etc. Instead i'd give them the common immunities that are universal to undead: immunity to exhaustion and being poisoned. Makes sense and shouldn't break the game. Likewise, a lich would no longer need to sleep, but you could implement a system where they could meditate for 4 hours to regain their spell slots. Keeps their extra time and semi-consciousness on par with elves in that regard, but they'd have the option of not meditating at all if they desired, but they would have to give up regaining spell slots to do so.

Certainly wouldn't give them passive truesight or any of the damage immunities. I'd give them resistance to necrotic as all undead have this. I would not give them vulnerability to radiant damage because that is kind of an arbitrary punishment. Real liches aren't vulnerable to radiant damage. Instead, treat them as you would any undead. Certain spells like Sunbeam for instance make undead have disadvantage on the save. No need to apply additional penalties, just treat them as if their creature type is now undead. Certain spells and abilities already have increased effects against undead baked into them.

The final bit would be the phylactery... I would make this an artifact level magical item and have it require attunement. So no matter what, it would always be one of your 3 attuned items. And being an artifact level item, it should be incredibly difficult to make or find just as finding any artifact item would be.

Should be noted that a lich doesn't need to carry their phylactery around with them. They can bury it, hide it, or do whatever to it as a means of protecting themselves. While it is on their person, i'd give them a great increase to their casting ability and make them far more powerful. Increased spell DCs, maybe grant extra spell slots, all kinds of strong stuff, but if it is not on their person, they lose those benefits. A lich is inclined to hide it to be truly immortal and not risk it being destroyed, but it leaves doors you can open later down the road if the PC is ever turned into an NPC villain that needs to be taken down. And if they want to carry it around with them and exploit it's power all the time, there are ways ti discourage that like having the lich player be targeted by a lot of the enemies and get destroyed often.

Another thing I was always a fan of in regards to undead is the whole 0 hitpoints = destroyed rule. Not sure if it exists in 5e or not, but in previous editions you didn't have negative hitpoints or anything like that as undead, you simply dropped to 0 and were destroyed. If you applied the same rule to 5e and simply killed the character instead of allowing saving throws if you are undead, it's a nice counterbalance to the immortality of the phylactery. It keeps you from being too powerful while also giving the player an excuse to use the rejuvenation feature of their phylactery and really "feel" like a lich, which is most important.

I think doing those things would keep it balanced and interesting without having to do anything crazy. After all, a wizard with the Wish spell can just wish for clones every single day and be functionally immortal as well and without having to rely on an attuned item or have the inability to make death saves. It all works out in the end. Just my thoughts.

[Zorku]

snip
By the time you've got 9th level spells most PCs will stash it in a demiplane with some permanent duration illusions in place and a bunch of clutter they can easily add or subtract from each time they need to feed a poor unfortunate soul to their phylactery. If the dm can be talked into some older interpretations of a lich this is just the backup and the lich keeps their dominant phylactery (relatively) nearby.

Do you know if any of the older material talks about how long an imprisoned soul is good for? My cursory searches aren't turning anything up.

[Vogonjeltz]

The charisma check is unnecessary, as unwilling creatures were never valid targets of the spell.

Whoops, mea culpa it was just a first draft :)


Indeed. I have made some changes here, which include allowing the caster to pick unwilling targets.

Thank you very much for the edit.

[clem]

What about taking the UA rules for the revenant race and adding some lich-specific fluff?