PoW - Are maneuver levels inclusive for prerequisites?

[vosenedich]

I'm looking at getting my character into the Umbral Blade prestige class, and one of the pre-requisites is:
"Must be capable of initiating 3rd level maneuvers of the Veiled Moon discipline."

My character is currently a 12th level Hidden Blade (Rogue archetype) with several Veiled Moon maneuvers, but none from the 3rd level. The question is, are maneuver levels like spellcasting (aka not-inclusive) when they appear as requirements?

[exelsisxax]

I believe the RAI wording is "must be able to initiate maneuvers of at least 3rd level...."

Did you skip 3rd and get some 4th levels? I'd say that's legal.

The inclusive thing doesn't make sense to me for spells though. There is no method of casting 2nd level arcane spells without being able to cast 1st level, and unlike maneuvers, you must actually have 1st level spell to cast on hand.

[legomaster00156]

That's an interesting question, since unlike spells, maneuvers technically aren't inclusive. I would rule yes, since this looks like an oversight more than anything.

[Swaoeaeieu]

I think the "must be able" part means you need be able to pick 3rd level maneuvers. so if you have an initiator level of 5th or higher you are good. At least that seems to be logical to me.

[vosenedich]

Did you skip 3rd and get some 4th levels? I'd say that's legal.

Hidden Blades have access to another three disciplines, which took up all of my 3rd level maneuvers known. Broken Blade in particular with it's wonderful dodges and boosts.


"must be able to initiate maneuvers of at least 3rd level...."

The problem here is that they have to be 3rd level maneuvers of the Veiled Moon discipline. And therefore you could (as is my case) be able to initiate maneuvers of the 4th level from the Veiled Moon, but not 3rd, because you don't know any.

[exelsisxax]

I think the "must be able" part means you need be able to pick 3rd level maneuvers. so if you have an initiator level of 5th or higher you are good. At least that seems to be logical to me.

Certainly not. You need access to the correct discipline(if any) and of the appropriate level, at the very least. 3rd level primary initiators can have 2nd level maneuvers, but initiating archetypes only get 2nd level maneuvers through class levels at level 4. Then, you need to actually know a maneuver or stance of, I believe by RAI, at least the listed level.


The problem here is that they have to be 3rd level maneuvers of the Veiled Moon discipline. And therefore you could (as is my case) be able to initiate maneuvers of the 4th level from the Veiled Moon, but not 3rd, because you don't know any.
If you didn't pick up ANY veiled moon of 3rd or above, then you certainly don't qualify.

[vosenedich]

If you didn't pick up ANY veiled moon of 3rd or above, then you certainly don't qualify.

I picked Veiled Moon stances and maneuvers from the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th. There weren't any good choices from the 3rd level that could compete with the maneuvers from Broken Blade.

[exelsisxax]

I picked Veiled Moon stances and maneuvers from the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th. There weren't any good choices from the 3rd level that could compete with the maneuvers from Broken Blade.

If you've got above 3rd, i'd let you take if it I were the DM. I think the "at least" is the intented meaning of the prerequisite.

I don't know why you wouldn't take altered penumbra or ghostwalk, though. Ghostwalk counters virtually everything, including incorporeal(you can hit them now!) and penumbra works against any attack roll and can be used to reposition, not just melee attacks from within your reach. Totally good options there.

[vosenedich]

If you've got above 3rd, i'd let you take if it I were the DM. I think the "at least" is the intented meaning of the prerequisite.

I don't know why you wouldn't take altered penumbra or ghostwalk, though. Ghostwalk counters virtually everything, including incorporeal(you can hit them now!) and penumbra works against any attack roll and can be used to reposition, not just melee attacks from within your reach. Totally good options there.

The problem with penumbra is that it requires a Stealth vs Perception check, which due to our encounters so far has been a sub-par choice (enemies have had a very high perception checks in general). But Ghost Walk was the closest runner up against Flat Iron Riposte. My Acro and Stealth are equal, and attack rolls in general are lower than Perception checks, so it has worked much better so far.

But I guess I can always wait till 14th level, use the retraining to trade some strike for Ghost Walk and then enter Umbral Blade at 15th.

Thanks everyone for the input!