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View Full Version : Mini-nerf for spellcasters. Nice or not? Peach please!



CinuzIta
2016-11-03, 04:43 PM
Hello everyone!

One or two years ago I created a casting alternative to the vancian system for spellcasting classes that used mana points in place of the normal spell slots. Now, I've never finished that project as it wasn't as well thought as I initially thought it to be.

BUT

I still think that one of the changes I'd put in that systems was a quite nice idea. Let me explain: all casters have a focus reserve (equal to their Will save + half their caster level (rounded down, min 1) + their relevant casting ability modifier) that they need to sustain continous spells; they do so by using a number of focus points equal to the spell level +1 per creature targeted (like for a mass bull's strenght spell; continuous area spell just needs the spell's level). They regain their focus points when the spell ends, or the caster can prematurely end the spell effect with a swif action.

For example, a 9th level sorcerer with a +4 Cha would have a 14 points focus reserve. If he wishes to cast fly on himself he would use 3 points from his reserve to fuel the spell, leaving him with other 11 points to fuel other spells that he might casts.

If a caster doesn't have enough focus points left to sustain a spell he's casting, the spell fails but it's still used.


Here's the original text:

"Focus:
The Focus represent the ability of a caster to maintain certain spells while performing other actions. Every spellcaster gains a certain amount of Focus Points during his career equal to his Base Focus Progression (listed on the Class Progression) + 1/2 his spellcaster level + Spellcasting Ability Modifier.

A spellcaster can use the Focus Points from his Focus Pool to maintain active more than one spell at a time, but the costs of the active spells can never exceed the total points of the Focus Pool (See below).

Maintaining Spells:
some spells require the caster to continually focus his mind on them, in order to keep their effects active over time. In order to maintain spells that has a duration longer than "Instantaneous", a spellcaster must invest a certain amount points from his Focus Pool equal to:

Spell Level +1 for each person after the first one that are affected by the spell.

These points are invested for all of the Spell's duration and are regained one turn after the spell has expired. Once the spellcaster recover his Focus Points, he can invest them again.

The sum of the spells' levels cannot exceed the total of Focus Points; if a caster cast a spell without enough Focus Points to maintain it, the spell simply fails but the Magic Points [or spell per day, in our case] are considered to be spent.

The caster can dismiss an active spell with a swift action."

Now, would this be a good idea to nerf a little the caster classes? Or is completely and utterly bad?

Jormengand
2016-11-03, 04:58 PM
In general, it tends to nerf haste, plus many of the spells which didn't need to be nerfed (your example of mass bull's strength is a notoriously awful spell for its level). Further, it doesn't massively nerf casters, who tend to have more feats than they need anyway and can just grab up Iron Will or whatever to boost their already-high will saves. It doesn't affect spells like celerity at all, and barely affects power word: Pain, polymorph or shapechange. Eventually, it's going to be more of a book-keeping issue than an actual restriction.

Also, see Grod's Law (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328767-More-realistic-D-amp-D-Economy/page4&p=17613518#post17613518).

Maxrim
2016-11-03, 06:31 PM
It puts a nice cap on Persistomancy, which is nice. I assume you mean base will save, not will save bonus? The example matches those numbers, and I think it works better than the alternative.

9th level wizard
4 + 6 + 5 Int mod is 15 focus. Haste on himself plus 2 others, that's 3 + 3 targets, 9/15 Focus. Polymorph on himself, that's 5 + 1. 3/15. Wraithstrike 2 + 1 target.

That's a very workable amount, but it doesn't let you go crazy. In TO, yeah, you don't need that to go crazy, but in my actual play experience, I think this'd make for an effective balance.

You should decide whether 1 round durations take away focus in the round after they're active, as written they do that.

Nifft
2016-11-03, 07:43 PM
It puts a nice cap on Persistomancy, which is nice.

It says that you want a small number of the best Persistent effects rather than a stack of all the Persist-able effects, which is what I see in real games anyway. So it puts a cap on TO, but it would have had no notable effect on the usage of Persistent spells in any game I've played or run.

Persistent Shapechange is still on the table, for example.

===

If I were to impose a Concentration limit on long-duration spells, I'd do something easier to track. Something like...

You need a Concentration slot to maintain some spells.

- At level 1, you have one Concentration slot.
- At level 6, you have two Concentration slots.
- At level 11, you have three Concentration slots.
- At level 16, you have four Concentration slots.

Maybe PrCs don't advance Concentration slots.

Maybe half-casters max out at two Concentration slots.

Maybe there's a feat to gain +1 Concentration slot... in fact, that's what Combat Casting should do: +4 to cast defensively and +1 Concentration slot.

nikkoli
2016-11-04, 08:38 AM
Using the full will save makes clerics and druids the king of this system, since they get a good will progression and then their casting modifier twice.

CinuzIta
2016-11-04, 09:18 AM
I beg your pardon gents, I obviously meant the base will save without the relevant ability modifier

Jormengand, obviously mass bull strength was just an example..what I was aiming to was to prevent mass boosts stacking and area of effec/wallt spells and that kind of stuff which you don't seem to have taken into consideration (if you do and still think that this is a bad idea, my bad)..in my games casters generally tend to have more than one magical effect active at one time..they do not use just polymorph on themselves and that's it, so I thought this was quite nice but I'm always been open to criticism when constructive

would this focus (or strain, why not) pool be affected also by instantaneous spells be a better idea? Like, you use and recover the focus points immediately but the spell will fail if you don't have enough in the moment you cast the spell! This was a caster should keep track of the spells he's using and if it has some spells active might prevent him from using some higher level spells..or, again, is this just terrible?

Nifft, the slots idea is not bad either..how do you guys think this would affect the game?